As the title say, we are dealing with a girl who is playing with us (roll20) as a rogue (drow). The problem is that she-clearly-has not read her class, she just keep doing basic stuff as attacking enemies on first line. Every time in combat she casts dancing lights, darkness or Faerie Fire (which became a meme for the party), after 10 sessions she still thinks that dancing lights can blind an enemy.
We even have another rogue in the party that she could mirror and learn from but it seems that she doesn't.
We have made multiple comments on it, but she still doesn't get that she needs to start playing as a rogue but still plays it poorly. How do you deal with this type of player?
Have similar problem with a bard player at our weekly game at comic shop. Doesn't give out bardic inspiration, thinks can use dancing lights to blind monsters, barely understands the few spells she uses with is Viscous Mockery and Thunder Wave; and barely understands other mechanics. Seems more interested in in creating mischief. She said her only knowledge prior joining game was Neverwinter Nights and the DnD Movie Honor Among Thieves.
Let her play the way she wants but stop reminding her of the abilities she gains as she levels up.
Let her find out how much damage she does or what things she can do.
Sometimes players just want to play the way they want to play and dislike anyone telling them they are doing it wrong.
We understand the point of playing the "way you like", it is just that it is ruining the game experience for the rest of us. I understand you wanna make it your style but not reading your class makes it bad for us who are trying to make it through.
I respect the choices you wanna make, the way you engage with the environment and your class. But at least READ it.
Clear up the benefits of the Drow and teach them to combine that with sneak attack. Also, clear up that dancing lights can't blind people. If she wants to play a Rogue simply, let her do it, but if it starts hindering the enjoyment of other people, tell her to just read a class description. Clear up all misconceptions with her race and class, and with that, you should be fine.
If they're being disruptive at the table and/or refusing to listen when someone explains they can't do something, then someone- typically the DM- needs to have a civil converstation with them outside of a session explaining the problems they're creating for the group. If they listen and try to work with you, problem solved. If not, you might need to just kick them.
Honestly, if you're 10 sessions in and they're still not understanding their character, or if they're repeatedly using a spell inaccurately... maybe D&D just isn't for them. There are other TTRPGs with less focus on combat and more freedom to use simple spells in more creative and impactful ways. Are they having fun in combat or is the Rogue player also frustrated at their inability to keep up with the other players? If they like RP'ing and other elements of D&D, but just don't click with combat... maybe they could have a coach to guide them? I hesitate to say, "maybe someone else should play their character in combat", but that feels like the solution.
All in all I think I'd need some more info before I could give more in depth advice. Has the rest of your group tried to explain to them how Rogues and sneak attack work? I know it seems obvious to those of us who have been playing for a while, but I've listened to two separate DnD podcasts with first-time players playing as Rogues, and both of them only ever learned how sneak attacks work at the very end of the adventure by specifically asking audience members to explain to them how it works in private.
Every TTRPG, whether played in person, on a VTT, or a PbP are all played on a metaphorical 3-legged table. The three legs are:
RP & Narrative
Game & Mechanics
Friendship & Camaraderie
By that I mean, everyone plays a TTRPG for a combination of reasons. Some folks play to experience the story and have fun playing a character, but might not care so much about the rules & game play, or the time spent with friends. Some people play for the game itself and love the mechanics & rules, but care less about the story and character, or the time spent with friends. Some people play simply because it’s a fun activity to do with friends, but care less about the rules or the story. Most folks play for a combination of those reasons, but tend to prioritize one or two of them. A few people are in the middle, equally invested in all three aspects of the TTRPG experience. Think of it like a venn diagram. A table gets wobbly (off balance) when one or two players have significantly different priorities than the rest of the table.
It seems to me that the rest of you are balanced, at least in part, somewhere near the Game/Mechanics leg of your table, and that player is all the way over by one of the other two legs or right between them. That’s what’s making your table wobble. There’s nothing wrong with you all having different priorities except that it’s making your table wobble. You all might just need to sit at different tables is all.
Have you tried handing her a players handbook and just ask please read? In that same vein it is Christmas time maybe pass the hat and give her a a PHB for Christmas. That is assuming she does not already own one.
We understand the point of playing the "way you like", it is just that it is ruining the game experience for the rest of us. I understand you wanna make it your style but not reading your class makes it bad for us who are trying to make it through.
I respect the choices you wanna make, the way you engage with the environment and your class. But at least READ it.
How does someone playing the game for different reasons than yourself RUIN the experience for the rest of you? It sounds like your problem is your table is mostly min-max powergamers with one casual roleplayer, and you're just upset that not everyone plays the same way as you. I trend towards min-max powergaming myself so I get it, but I also tend to love playing with casual roleplayer types that are relatively useless once combat breaks out. If it throws off your game balance to have a non-powergamer in the party, then speak to the DM because that's their failure to not rebalance difficulty to match the party.
Diverse styles make the game more fun... usually. There are definitely some ways though that contrasting styles can ruin things, so if you can provide more info about how it actually impacts YOU that she doesn't understand her class, perhaps people can give better advice. One obvious possibility would be if they take forever in combat due to not knowing what to do, that does ruin things for everyone but it is addressable
Finding useful resources when you are first starting out can be kind of hit or miss; it took me a long time to find this: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules (it's free if part of the problem is she hasn't decided to invest in the hobby yet - it might be possible that her device of choice could even read sections of it to her, in case she has a reading disability or similar ). I find youtube videos very helpful for figuring out what various spells do (and don't do) and how to use them effectively and for understanding some basics of playing a new class or subclass.
Also, I think Faerie Fire is awesome, and making up group memes about your friends seems kind of mean. (I guess I'm wondering if the game is fun for her , or if she is just playing something she's not interested in, to try to please other people.)
I often DM for new players, so this is something I have experienced a lot. I have a simple solution that works every time:
1. Offer the player feedback in a polite way. Ask them why they did something (rather than just tell them what they should have done), and then offer constructive criticism, letting them know other tools they had available to accomplish the goal they wished to accomplish, but in a more expedient manner.
2. Offer to let them change their class to something which better suits their playstyle. The problem might not be them knowing their class—they might just enjoy certain things and find the other parts of the class boring and not want to interface with them. A class switch could make everything better.
3. If points 1 and 2 fail, just get over it. So long as they are having fun playing their character, who cares if they are playing optimally? That is now part of who they are—embrace their mediocrity, make it part of their personality, and just run with it. You can still attempt step 1 every now and then, but, if they’ve made it clear they are having fun, then just embrace it and learn to have fun with it also.
We understand the point of playing the "way you like", it is just that it is ruining the game experience for the rest of us. I understand you wanna make it your style but not reading your class makes it bad for us who are trying to make it through.
I respect the choices you wanna make, the way you engage with the environment and your class. But at least READ it.
How does someone playing the game for different reasons than yourself RUIN the experience for the rest of you? It sounds like your problem is your table is mostly min-max powergamers with one casual roleplayer, and you're just upset that not everyone plays the same way as you. I trend towards min-max powergaming myself so I get it, but I also tend to love playing with casual roleplayer types that are relatively useless once combat breaks out. If it throws off your game balance to have a non-powergamer in the party, then speak to the DM because that's their failure to not rebalance difficulty to match the party.
Diverse styles make the game more fun... usually. There are definitely some ways though that contrasting styles can ruin things, so if you can provide more info about how it actually impacts YOU that she doesn't understand her class, perhaps people can give better advice. One obvious possibility would be if they take forever in combat due to not knowing what to do, that does ruin things for everyone but it is addressable
If he poster says the one person is ruining the game for everyone else, you have to take that at face value. Anything else is irrelevant. If this player is disrupting the game, no matter what the circumstances, then bounce the player.
If he poster says the one person is ruining the game for everyone else, you have to take that at face value. Anything else is irrelevant. If this player is disrupting the game, no matter what the circumstances, then bounce the player.
I do take it at face value, but was asking for more details. Without any more details the only possible answer is just kick out the player or quit the group (since it may not be the OP's call to kick them). Sometimes you can address an issue and salvage a situation though instead of just defaulting to the most drastic possible answer.
Can you please provide examples that demonstrates she is not reading her class. Other than her misunderstanding of the effects of Dancing Lights (which the GM should explain won't work how she believes it will. Maybe she is confusing her Sunlight Sensitivity or there has been other game examples of creatures being blinded; but the point is the GM needs to explain how they won't rule the cantrip will blind characters) what is it she is doing or not doing during the game that is ruining the experience?
One other thing to consider, the party has another rogue. This could actually contribute more to the issue because if there is another player filling in the roles and performing acts in the game then the this player may feel they need to find other ways to make their character stand out; especially if she is less experienced and not as optimized as the other class character in the party.
As the title say, we are dealing with a girl who is playing with us (roll20) as a rogue (drow). The problem is that she-clearly-has not read her class, she just keep doing basic stuff as attacking enemies on first line. Every time in combat she casts dancing lights, darkness or Faerie Fire (which became a meme for the party), after 10 sessions she still thinks that dancing lights can blind an enemy.
We even have another rogue in the party that she could mirror and learn from but it seems that she doesn't.
We have made multiple comments on it, but she still doesn't get that she needs to start playing as a rogue but still plays it poorly. How do you deal with this type of player?
It just seems that what she is getting out of the game isn't the same as what you want to get out of the game.
Just because one person in the party isn't playing optimally should not ruin your fun. Yes, they don't do all the things that you want them to but if what they are doing is not directly harmful to the party, you don't have much argument. "But they should be doing sneak attacks! they should be doing X Y Z thing!" Well they're not. Focus on your own character and what you can do.
Yes, your fun is important, but their fun is important too. You said it is their first time playing any RPG. It takes a long time to figure out how to do combat well. Additionally they might not even be playing for the purpose of fighting. They might really enjoy the other aspects of the game.
How do I deal with this type of player? I let her play the rogue however she wants to play it and I don't get bothered by it if she's not optimized unless it results in other player characters' deaths. That being stated, when I DM and recruit I do let the potential players know I expect them to have read the Player's Handbook and specifically the class and subclass they want to use.
As far as trying to blind with Dancing Lights, as a DM I would simply instruct them to read aloud the spell's description. I would then point out that if the spell could cause blindness it would be listed in the spell's description. I do encourage thinking outside of the box, but the players have to remember that anything their characters can do the NPCs can do as well. And you don't really want to encounter a drow raiding party that can blind your entire group with dancing lights, do you?
But that's me. You're upset enough with it that you made a post about it. So if I were you, I'd discuss it with the entire group and if everyone else feels the same as you then explain to her that "Her Fun Is Wrong!!" and let her know in no uncertain terms if it continues she'll be kicked from the group. Then she will either quit the group, learn to play or the DM kicks her out.
Making bad decisions in combat is not necessarily a reason to ask someone to leave my group but we have disinvited a couple of people who wouldn’t/couldn’t do the reading to learn the rules of the game. They needed everything to be explained to them over and over and that was more than any of us had signed up for unfortunately. We’ve also disinvited people who refused to join with the party and do what the rest of the characters were doing, people who have purposely spoiled the plan the rest of the party agreed to enact, people who insist on engaging in PVP by stealing from other party members or withholding loot they find. These are things that may be perfectly acceptable at other tables but we have decided we don’t tolerate. Joining my group includes some particular base level expectations because this is my leisure time and I am allowed to spend it the way I enjoy. I did not form a D&D group to become someone’s tutor or therapist; I did it to play a game and have fun.
It is a personal pet peeve of mine how far we in this hobby bend over to accommodate disruptive players. Perhaps it’s because the D&D community is largely comprised of misfits but if a person showed up to a league hockey game and just skated in circles, shooting the puck at their own net and passing to opposing players, or if they showed up to a chess tournament and played all the pieces wrong in game after game, there’s no way their behaviour would be tolerated.
If you guys decide, as a group, that the person’s behaviour is not up to your standards, don’t feel guilty about kindly asking her to leave, regardless of what anyone else here tells you.
Making bad decisions in combat is not necessarily a reason to ask someone to leave my group but we have disinvited a couple of people who wouldn’t/couldn’t do the reading to learn the rules of the game. They needed everything to be explained to them over and over and that was more than any of us had signed up for unfortunately. We’ve also disinvited people who refused to join with the party and do what the rest of the characters were doing, people who have purposely spoiled the plan the rest of the party agreed to enact, people who insist on engaging in PVP by stealing from other party members or withholding loot they find. These are things that may be perfectly acceptable at other tables but we have decided we don’t tolerate. Joining my group includes some particular base level expectations because this is my leisure time and I am allowed to spend it the way I enjoy. I did not form a D&D group to become someone’s tutor or therapist; I did it to play a game and have fun.
If someone's continuously refusing to join with the rest of the party, actively spoiling plans that the party agreed to, or even just accidentally spoiling plans thru reckless decisions, those all sound like they could be good reasons to kick someone for disrupting the enjoyment of the rest of the group. But the OP didn't describe anything remotely like that, he's just describing a player that is new to the game and not interested in min-maxing their character optimally and saying it ruins his enjoyment because they play differently than him.
Making bad decisions in combat is not necessarily a reason to ask someone to leave my group but we have disinvited a couple of people who wouldn’t/couldn’t do the reading to learn the rules of the game. They needed everything to be explained to them over and over and that was more than any of us had signed up for unfortunately. We’ve also disinvited people who refused to join with the party and do what the rest of the characters were doing, people who have purposely spoiled the plan the rest of the party agreed to enact, people who insist on engaging in PVP by stealing from other party members or withholding loot they find. These are things that may be perfectly acceptable at other tables but we have decided we don’t tolerate. Joining my group includes some particular base level expectations because this is my leisure time and I am allowed to spend it the way I enjoy. I did not form a D&D group to become someone’s tutor or therapist; I did it to play a game and have fun.
If someone's continuously refusing to join with the rest of the party, actively spoiling plans that the party agreed to, or even just accidentally spoiling plans thru reckless decisions, those all sound like they could be good reasons to kick someone for disrupting the enjoyment of the rest of the group. But the OP didn't describe anything remotely like that, he's just describing a player that is new to the game and not interested in min-maxing their character optimally and saying it ruins his enjoyment because they play differently than him.
OP also doesn't say whether they're a player or the GM- if they're the former it's not their call anyway.
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Hello there,
As the title say, we are dealing with a girl who is playing with us (roll20) as a rogue (drow). The problem is that she-clearly-has not read her class, she just keep doing basic stuff as attacking enemies on first line. Every time in combat she casts dancing lights, darkness or Faerie Fire (which became a meme for the party), after 10 sessions she still thinks that dancing lights can blind an enemy.
We even have another rogue in the party that she could mirror and learn from but it seems that she doesn't.
We have made multiple comments on it, but she still doesn't get that she needs to start playing as a rogue but still plays it poorly. How do you deal with this type of player?
Let her play the way she wants but stop reminding her of the abilities she gains as she levels up.
Let her find out how much damage she does or what things she can do.
Sometimes players just want to play the way they want to play and dislike anyone telling them they are doing it wrong.
Have similar problem with a bard player at our weekly game at comic shop. Doesn't give out bardic inspiration, thinks can use dancing lights to blind monsters, barely understands the few spells she uses with is Viscous Mockery and Thunder Wave; and barely understands other mechanics. Seems more interested in in creating mischief. She said her only knowledge prior joining game was Neverwinter Nights and the DnD Movie Honor Among Thieves.
We understand the point of playing the "way you like", it is just that it is ruining the game experience for the rest of us. I understand you wanna make it your style but not reading your class makes it bad for us who are trying to make it through.
I respect the choices you wanna make, the way you engage with the environment and your class. But at least READ it.
Clear up the benefits of the Drow and teach them to combine that with sneak attack. Also, clear up that dancing lights can't blind people. If she wants to play a Rogue simply, let her do it, but if it starts hindering the enjoyment of other people, tell her to just read a class description. Clear up all misconceptions with her race and class, and with that, you should be fine.
If they're being disruptive at the table and/or refusing to listen when someone explains they can't do something, then someone- typically the DM- needs to have a civil converstation with them outside of a session explaining the problems they're creating for the group. If they listen and try to work with you, problem solved. If not, you might need to just kick them.
Honestly, if you're 10 sessions in and they're still not understanding their character, or if they're repeatedly using a spell inaccurately... maybe D&D just isn't for them. There are other TTRPGs with less focus on combat and more freedom to use simple spells in more creative and impactful ways. Are they having fun in combat or is the Rogue player also frustrated at their inability to keep up with the other players? If they like RP'ing and other elements of D&D, but just don't click with combat... maybe they could have a coach to guide them? I hesitate to say, "maybe someone else should play their character in combat", but that feels like the solution.
All in all I think I'd need some more info before I could give more in depth advice. Has the rest of your group tried to explain to them how Rogues and sneak attack work? I know it seems obvious to those of us who have been playing for a while, but I've listened to two separate DnD podcasts with first-time players playing as Rogues, and both of them only ever learned how sneak attacks work at the very end of the adventure by specifically asking audience members to explain to them how it works in private.
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It seems to me that your table is wobbly.
Every TTRPG, whether played in person, on a VTT, or a PbP are all played on a metaphorical 3-legged table. The three legs are:
By that I mean, everyone plays a TTRPG for a combination of reasons. Some folks play to experience the story and have fun playing a character, but might not care so much about the rules & game play, or the time spent with friends. Some people play for the game itself and love the mechanics & rules, but care less about the story and character, or the time spent with friends. Some people play simply because it’s a fun activity to do with friends, but care less about the rules or the story. Most folks play for a combination of those reasons, but tend to prioritize one or two of them. A few people are in the middle, equally invested in all three aspects of the TTRPG experience. Think of it like a venn diagram. A table gets wobbly (off balance) when one or two players have significantly different priorities than the rest of the table.
It seems to me that the rest of you are balanced, at least in part, somewhere near the Game/Mechanics leg of your table, and that player is all the way over by one of the other two legs or right between them. That’s what’s making your table wobble. There’s nothing wrong with you all having different priorities except that it’s making your table wobble. You all might just need to sit at different tables is all.
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Have you tried handing her a players handbook and just ask please read? In that same vein it is Christmas time maybe pass the hat and give her a a PHB for Christmas. That is assuming she does not already own one.
How does someone playing the game for different reasons than yourself RUIN the experience for the rest of you? It sounds like your problem is your table is mostly min-max powergamers with one casual roleplayer, and you're just upset that not everyone plays the same way as you. I trend towards min-max powergaming myself so I get it, but I also tend to love playing with casual roleplayer types that are relatively useless once combat breaks out. If it throws off your game balance to have a non-powergamer in the party, then speak to the DM because that's their failure to not rebalance difficulty to match the party.
Diverse styles make the game more fun... usually. There are definitely some ways though that contrasting styles can ruin things, so if you can provide more info about how it actually impacts YOU that she doesn't understand her class, perhaps people can give better advice. One obvious possibility would be if they take forever in combat due to not knowing what to do, that does ruin things for everyone but it is addressable
Finding useful resources when you are first starting out can be kind of hit or miss; it took me a long time to find this: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules (it's free if part of the problem is she hasn't decided to invest in the hobby yet - it might be possible that her device of choice could even read sections of it to her, in case she has a reading disability or similar ). I find youtube videos very helpful for figuring out what various spells do (and don't do) and how to use them effectively and for understanding some basics of playing a new class or subclass.
Also, I think Faerie Fire is awesome, and making up group memes about your friends seems kind of mean. (I guess I'm wondering if the game is fun for her , or if she is just playing something she's not interested in, to try to please other people.)
I often DM for new players, so this is something I have experienced a lot. I have a simple solution that works every time:
1. Offer the player feedback in a polite way. Ask them why they did something (rather than just tell them what they should have done), and then offer constructive criticism, letting them know other tools they had available to accomplish the goal they wished to accomplish, but in a more expedient manner.
2. Offer to let them change their class to something which better suits their playstyle. The problem might not be them knowing their class—they might just enjoy certain things and find the other parts of the class boring and not want to interface with them. A class switch could make everything better.
3. If points 1 and 2 fail, just get over it. So long as they are having fun playing their character, who cares if they are playing optimally? That is now part of who they are—embrace their mediocrity, make it part of their personality, and just run with it. You can still attempt step 1 every now and then, but, if they’ve made it clear they are having fun, then just embrace it and learn to have fun with it also.
If he poster says the one person is ruining the game for everyone else, you have to take that at face value. Anything else is irrelevant. If this player is disrupting the game, no matter what the circumstances, then bounce the player.
I do take it at face value, but was asking for more details. Without any more details the only possible answer is just kick out the player or quit the group (since it may not be the OP's call to kick them). Sometimes you can address an issue and salvage a situation though instead of just defaulting to the most drastic possible answer.
Can you please provide examples that demonstrates she is not reading her class. Other than her misunderstanding of the effects of Dancing Lights (which the GM should explain won't work how she believes it will. Maybe she is confusing her Sunlight Sensitivity or there has been other game examples of creatures being blinded; but the point is the GM needs to explain how they won't rule the cantrip will blind characters) what is it she is doing or not doing during the game that is ruining the experience?
One other thing to consider, the party has another rogue. This could actually contribute more to the issue because if there is another player filling in the roles and performing acts in the game then the this player may feel they need to find other ways to make their character stand out; especially if she is less experienced and not as optimized as the other class character in the party.
It just seems that what she is getting out of the game isn't the same as what you want to get out of the game.
Just because one person in the party isn't playing optimally should not ruin your fun. Yes, they don't do all the things that you want them to but if what they are doing is not directly harmful to the party, you don't have much argument. "But they should be doing sneak attacks! they should be doing X Y Z thing!" Well they're not. Focus on your own character and what you can do.
Yes, your fun is important, but their fun is important too. You said it is their first time playing any RPG. It takes a long time to figure out how to do combat well. Additionally they might not even be playing for the purpose of fighting. They might really enjoy the other aspects of the game.
Focus on your own character and let them be.
---------------
Be happy the whole party isn't like that.
And Faerie Fire can be pretty awesome.
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How do I deal with this type of player? I let her play the rogue however she wants to play it and I don't get bothered by it if she's not optimized unless it results in other player characters' deaths. That being stated, when I DM and recruit I do let the potential players know I expect them to have read the Player's Handbook and specifically the class and subclass they want to use.
As far as trying to blind with Dancing Lights, as a DM I would simply instruct them to read aloud the spell's description. I would then point out that if the spell could cause blindness it would be listed in the spell's description. I do encourage thinking outside of the box, but the players have to remember that anything their characters can do the NPCs can do as well. And you don't really want to encounter a drow raiding party that can blind your entire group with dancing lights, do you?
But that's me. You're upset enough with it that you made a post about it. So if I were you, I'd discuss it with the entire group and if everyone else feels the same as you then explain to her that "Her Fun Is Wrong!!" and let her know in no uncertain terms if it continues she'll be kicked from the group. Then she will either quit the group, learn to play or the DM kicks her out.
Making bad decisions in combat is not necessarily a reason to ask someone to leave my group but we have disinvited a couple of people who wouldn’t/couldn’t do the reading to learn the rules of the game. They needed everything to be explained to them over and over and that was more than any of us had signed up for unfortunately. We’ve also disinvited people who refused to join with the party and do what the rest of the characters were doing, people who have purposely spoiled the plan the rest of the party agreed to enact, people who insist on engaging in PVP by stealing from other party members or withholding loot they find. These are things that may be perfectly acceptable at other tables but we have decided we don’t tolerate. Joining my group includes some particular base level expectations because this is my leisure time and I am allowed to spend it the way I enjoy. I did not form a D&D group to become someone’s tutor or therapist; I did it to play a game and have fun.
It is a personal pet peeve of mine how far we in this hobby bend over to accommodate disruptive players. Perhaps it’s because the D&D community is largely comprised of misfits but if a person showed up to a league hockey game and just skated in circles, shooting the puck at their own net and passing to opposing players, or if they showed up to a chess tournament and played all the pieces wrong in game after game, there’s no way their behaviour would be tolerated.
If you guys decide, as a group, that the person’s behaviour is not up to your standards, don’t feel guilty about kindly asking her to leave, regardless of what anyone else here tells you.
If someone's continuously refusing to join with the rest of the party, actively spoiling plans that the party agreed to, or even just accidentally spoiling plans thru reckless decisions, those all sound like they could be good reasons to kick someone for disrupting the enjoyment of the rest of the group. But the OP didn't describe anything remotely like that, he's just describing a player that is new to the game and not interested in min-maxing their character optimally and saying it ruins his enjoyment because they play differently than him.
OP also doesn't say whether they're a player or the GM- if they're the former it's not their call anyway.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.