Hi hello. So I do online highschool and my friends (classmates of mine) and I have this DND club. It's great and all, most of the people are great and cool, but there is one problem. There's too many people in the club. We had to split into 2 groups to do separate campaigns but still it's a WHOLE lot of people. Our group's DM is a little bit older than me but he's still technically a child. Overall, he's a great DM. He's cool, he makes awesome adventures, he's great. But the only issue with him is that (I think, I don't know for sure) there's too many people for him to handle? Which is fine and all, I get that totally, but he doesn't actually like. read our character sheets. Which is fine I guess, but also that's kind of crucial information to be a DM? Like, I'm pretty sure you need to KNOW your player's characters to make it work. I'm relatively new to DND (I got an interest in it last year because I read the Adventure Zone books) but I'm just wondering if I'm wrong for thinking that he should at least know our characters. I just wanna know if I'm like dumb or something.
Try door number 3. Instead of letting it go, or calling them out, have a conversation with them about it. Having open, honest and kind conversations with people about things that may have some emotional weight is a skill we all would do well to develop.
Calling your DM out may not be the best way to approach the issue, but talking to him privately and telling him your concerns about him not giving enough care about the PC backgrounds may be the best way to handle the situation. I know that reading all of the PC character sheets before the first session can tiresome but he should read them along the camping.
sorry for my broken English, it’s not my mother tongue.
I know plenty of DMs who don’t know what the PCs can do. It helps, sure, but it’s not strictly necessary. Are you still having fun? Is everyone else having fun? What’s the problem that is being created here?
As a DM for years, I have enough to worry about on the battlefield than worrying about everything a PC can do. It is the responsibility of the player to know their PC. Over time, I pick up on things because I review sheets when prepping serious encounters, but I don't go out of my way to keep it in my headspace. I have to worry about literally every detail of the entire world the players play in, they can at least know to remind me that they have some reaction feature I forgot about.
Edit: I will say though that a DM should be familiar with the story elements of each character if their game has a focus on RP. I need to know the names of my barbarian PC's abusive mother because the player expressed that dealing with that was a desired part of their character development. That much is on me.
The DM has a ton of stuff on their plate. One of the few things the DM doesn’t have to “know” is your character; that is the player’s responsibility. They should have a basic idea, like whether your character is a fighter or a wizard, but they should be able to rely on you for the most everything relating to the character—you are the player who is playing that character. The only thing you are doing is managing one character while the DM handles the entire rest of the world. The DM’s head is full of whatever all the players bring to the table as well as all the NPC’s, monsters, geography, politics etc. and all the intrigues and plots etc. and how everything fits together. In other words, A LOT of things that aren’t your character. I’ve been playing with the same amazing DM for over 30 years and he’s never “known” a single character of any player’s in that time. He pretty much has only the barest understanding of the rules as they pertain to character creation because he never creates characters yet we play a great game every weekend. What even makes you think intimate knowledge of the characters is required of a DM, especially when you indicate he is a good DM in every way aside from the fact he doesn’t read the characters thoroughly?
As far as anyone ever “knowing” your character…well, everyone loves their own characters, everyone thinks their own character is the greatest thing since sliced bread, their character is totally unique, their character is special, their character is super cool and of course everyone wants to hear about their character too! Except, in reality, most of our characters are derivative as hell, most of us are terrible writers and virtually no one wants to hear any of it. You ever see those memes of the pretty girl standing meekly in a corner or shrinking away in a chair from a fella prattling on about something he is passionate about and thinks will impress the girl but clearly all she wants to do is get far away from him ASAP? Yeah, those oblivious guys are us gamers and those poor girls are anyone we figure wants to hear about our latest character idea or creation, including most other gamers. The DM is not your captive audience that has to listen to and internalize the entire saga of Awesome-o the Awesomest Character That Ever Awesomed!
You never did say how many players there are. How many is too many varies from DM to DM but, it is my experience that the DM isn’t necessarily the one who struggles with a big group, it’s actually the players. They can feel left out when the group is too big. The DM has a hard time keeping all the players engaged as the finite game session is split between the large group meaning each person gets less individual attention than they might in a smaller group and the quieter voices get lost in the crowd. This is honestly the impression I’m getting from your post. It seems like you want to have more of the DM’s attention than they can afford you in such a large group. Your concerns are worth mentioning to the DM but it’s also worth some self-examination; is this really the DM’s problem to solve or do you need to adjust your expectations?
It isn't the DM's duty to know the PCs on the level of the character sheet. At a minimum, they should know the world - it's the player's responsibility to know what the PCs can do and how they interact. Sure, it's great when the players know the world and can help with it, and it's great when the DM knows the PCs and can help with them, but neither is a prerequisite to being able to fulfil that role, nor even to do it well.
The concern I have with large groups is that it becomes difficult - and eventually impossible - to juggle all those players and keep them engaged. If that's happening, then there's no concern really, they're doing their job as DM. If it's not happening and they can't handle however many there are, then the solution isn't to whinge, it's to do what I did in that situation.
You DM your own group. Players will be attracted from the groups and hopefully you'll have three healthy sized groups rather than two large ones.
What you don't do is moan at the DM or call him out. You become part of the solution.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
DM doesn't HAVE to know your characters, especially if there are too many players. Sounds like this campaign is more combat-based rather than RP, Right?
For those who are saying that my expectations are too high, I'm sorry for making it come across that way. This is my first session and I didn't know how the importance of the roles works. For those who are saying that the DM is probably overwhelmed, I do get that and I apologize if I made it seem like I didn't, because I know that it's a lot. It seems like a lot. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding that may have been interpreted incorrectly
For those who are saying that my expectations are too high, I'm sorry for making it come across that way. This is my first session and I didn't know how the importance of the roles works. For those who are saying that the DM is probably overwhelmed, I do get that and I apologize if I made it seem like I didn't, because I know that it's a lot. It seems like a lot. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding that may have been interpreted incorrectly
Hey, hang on to your enthusiasm! Don’t let me or anyone else poo-poo that away. It’s what makes new players so great. Just try to keep some perspective is all.
D&D can teach us a lot of really good life lessons about kindness, brevity, patience, negotiation, sharing, cooperation, surrendering the spotlight, cherishing the quirks in others and generally getting along with a group of people you might not choose to be around otherwise. It will serve you well in life, in all kinds of situations that have nothing to do with gaming, if you embrace the opportunity.
D&D can teach us a lot of really good life lessons about kindness, brevity, patience, negotiation, sharing, cooperation, surrendering the spotlight, cherishing the quirks in others and generally getting along with a group of people you might not choose to be around otherwise.
That's all true, but the main thing it teaches us is to always loot the bodies.
I think OP is getting the main point (response o the question) that the DM has no real NEED to know much about the characters, regarding their skills and abilities. That's up to the players. Know what YOU can do and if you want to be an above average team member, knowing a bit about what your team mates can do is a boon. Not in a Meta type idea (like knowing what spells the Cleric has ready for example) but in a general way, knowing he casters tend to be squishy, recognizing the Rogue needs someone in melee of his target to score those big hits and so on. You can and often will learn some of your party's abilities and discover ways you can work with them for better results. hat's all player role.
The DM is going to keep the story rolling (you mention he offers good storylines) throw challenges at you and then, respond to how YOU face these challenges. While you can prepare for one way of addressing a challenge, the DM usually has to try and consider several different ways you might tackle a problem and plan accordingly. As folks say, there is a lot of work at that end of the table already and trying to keep the details of several PC's memorized on top of the normal stuff the DM needs front of mind is a big ask.
I don't see it noted, but how many are you thinking is too many players? My standard group is 4 players (we cycle who DM's) but we have had 5 and are looking at perhaps 6 players at times. Even with just the 4, we all (the 3 of our 5 person regular group that DM) often forget certain things our players can do. As well, there are times the DM may know something one of the PC's could do to make something trivial, but it's up to the PC to try it. The DM should never offer advice on how to resolve a problem they placed in front of you.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
For those who are saying that my expectations are too high, I'm sorry for making it come across that way. This is my first session and I didn't know how the importance of the roles works. For those who are saying that the DM is probably overwhelmed, I do get that and I apologize if I made it seem like I didn't, because I know that it's a lot. It seems like a lot. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding that may have been interpreted incorrectly
You aren’t doing anything wrong by asking for advice here. We’re here to help. As some have said, and I agree with, the DM doesn’t need to know everything about your character. For some DMs just knowing the classes are enough to build wonderful encounters and campaigns.
If there are certain aspects of a player’s character’s backstory that they would like to flesh out in the campaign then the player should speak privately to the DM to see if they can work something in.
I tend to only write a paragraph or so for backstory and let the rest develop as we play. But some player’s write a novella that they expect the DM to read. DMs usually don’t have the time to read 8 chapters of how your character (not saying you are doing this, but I’ve read about this happening) started as a farmers child and eventually overthrew the evil king and helped slay a dragon all before they decided to become a 1st level character.
One of the great failings of DnD is how it encourages developing the campaign and the characters separately. In the worst case, you have no coordination and just cram everything together into the campaign that the DM decides on. Slightly better is the more common situation where the DM decides the campaign and the players make characters that fit into it.
What I prefer is a strong session zero where everyone makes characters and the campaign world together and the DM sets up the story that follows from those. It's possible to do in DnD, but it certainly isn't the default.
you say there is too many people and that you have had to split up into two groups and even then you believe there are to many people in the group how many people total do you have and how many people do you believe is too many?
but he doesn't actually like. read our character sheets
I'd happily argue that the game is significantly improved by the GM not reading the sheets. If the GM actually knows the sheets, everything will be tailored to what the PC's can do. Difficulty will be matched with character strength, skill challenges will always be for stuff the PC's actually knows, everything will be curated, and boring, and samey.
Much better to have a GM who's blissfully unaware, and throws challenges at you that you are actually forced to improvice to overcome.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
One of the great failings of DnD is how it encourages developing the campaign and the characters separately. In the worst case, you have no coordination and just cram everything together into the campaign that the DM decides on. Slightly better is the more common situation where the DM decides the campaign and the players make characters that fit into it.
What I prefer is a strong session zero where everyone makes characters and the campaign world together and the DM sets up the story that follows from those. It's possible to do in DnD, but it certainly isn't the default.
I don’t know if this stems from module based playing. When I played AD&D we almost exclusively played modules in Greyhawk, with not a whole lot “world building” outside of those. So backstory for PC’s wasn’t a focus. Published modules/campaigns cannot take into account player’s character backgrounds so they kind of have to be kept separate.
You're not dumb but there is no reason for the DM to have your character sheets memorized. It's your job to know what your character can and can't do. It's the DM's job to determine if what you're attempting to do fits in the rules. If the DM focuses too much on your character sheets then it's meta-gaming as he's now crafting everything with the intent to harm or help your characters.
I would also point out that if this is a club where people drop in and out as they're able the expectations on the DM should be to have a compelling session. Asking him to keep track of, and specifically include content (story, encounters, nemesis, etc.) for specific characters is too difficult if that character may not even be there for it. Big picture: if you have any issues with any DM talk to them first and ask how you can be part of the solution, maybe he just needs a little help.
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Hi hello. So I do online highschool and my friends (classmates of mine) and I have this DND club. It's great and all, most of the people are great and cool, but there is one problem. There's too many people in the club. We had to split into 2 groups to do separate campaigns but still it's a WHOLE lot of people. Our group's DM is a little bit older than me but he's still technically a child. Overall, he's a great DM. He's cool, he makes awesome adventures, he's great. But the only issue with him is that (I think, I don't know for sure) there's too many people for him to handle? Which is fine and all, I get that totally, but he doesn't actually like. read our character sheets. Which is fine I guess, but also that's kind of crucial information to be a DM? Like, I'm pretty sure you need to KNOW your player's characters to make it work. I'm relatively new to DND (I got an interest in it last year because I read the Adventure Zone books) but I'm just wondering if I'm wrong for thinking that he should at least know our characters. I just wanna know if I'm like dumb or something.
Try door number 3. Instead of letting it go, or calling them out, have a conversation with them about it. Having open, honest and kind conversations with people about things that may have some emotional weight is a skill we all would do well to develop.
This.
Calling your DM out may not be the best way to approach the issue, but talking to him privately and telling him your concerns about him not giving enough care about the PC backgrounds may be the best way to handle the situation.
I know that reading all of the PC character sheets before the first session can tiresome but he should read them along the camping.
sorry for my broken English, it’s not my mother tongue.
I know plenty of DMs who don’t know what the PCs can do. It helps, sure, but it’s not strictly necessary. Are you still having fun? Is everyone else having fun? What’s the problem that is being created here?
As a DM for years, I have enough to worry about on the battlefield than worrying about everything a PC can do. It is the responsibility of the player to know their PC. Over time, I pick up on things because I review sheets when prepping serious encounters, but I don't go out of my way to keep it in my headspace. I have to worry about literally every detail of the entire world the players play in, they can at least know to remind me that they have some reaction feature I forgot about.
Edit: I will say though that a DM should be familiar with the story elements of each character if their game has a focus on RP. I need to know the names of my barbarian PC's abusive mother because the player expressed that dealing with that was a desired part of their character development. That much is on me.
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The DM has a ton of stuff on their plate. One of the few things the DM doesn’t have to “know” is your character; that is the player’s responsibility. They should have a basic idea, like whether your character is a fighter or a wizard, but they should be able to rely on you for the most everything relating to the character—you are the player who is playing that character. The only thing you are doing is managing one character while the DM handles the entire rest of the world. The DM’s head is full of whatever all the players bring to the table as well as all the NPC’s, monsters, geography, politics etc. and all the intrigues and plots etc. and how everything fits together. In other words, A LOT of things that aren’t your character. I’ve been playing with the same amazing DM for over 30 years and he’s never “known” a single character of any player’s in that time. He pretty much has only the barest understanding of the rules as they pertain to character creation because he never creates characters yet we play a great game every weekend. What even makes you think intimate knowledge of the characters is required of a DM, especially when you indicate he is a good DM in every way aside from the fact he doesn’t read the characters thoroughly?
As far as anyone ever “knowing” your character…well, everyone loves their own characters, everyone thinks their own character is the greatest thing since sliced bread, their character is totally unique, their character is special, their character is super cool and of course everyone wants to hear about their character too! Except, in reality, most of our characters are derivative as hell, most of us are terrible writers and virtually no one wants to hear any of it. You ever see those memes of the pretty girl standing meekly in a corner or shrinking away in a chair from a fella prattling on about something he is passionate about and thinks will impress the girl but clearly all she wants to do is get far away from him ASAP? Yeah, those oblivious guys are us gamers and those poor girls are anyone we figure wants to hear about our latest character idea or creation, including most other gamers. The DM is not your captive audience that has to listen to and internalize the entire saga of Awesome-o the Awesomest Character That Ever Awesomed!
You never did say how many players there are. How many is too many varies from DM to DM but, it is my experience that the DM isn’t necessarily the one who struggles with a big group, it’s actually the players. They can feel left out when the group is too big. The DM has a hard time keeping all the players engaged as the finite game session is split between the large group meaning each person gets less individual attention than they might in a smaller group and the quieter voices get lost in the crowd. This is honestly the impression I’m getting from your post. It seems like you want to have more of the DM’s attention than they can afford you in such a large group. Your concerns are worth mentioning to the DM but it’s also worth some self-examination; is this really the DM’s problem to solve or do you need to adjust your expectations?
No, don't call them out.
It isn't the DM's duty to know the PCs on the level of the character sheet. At a minimum, they should know the world - it's the player's responsibility to know what the PCs can do and how they interact. Sure, it's great when the players know the world and can help with it, and it's great when the DM knows the PCs and can help with them, but neither is a prerequisite to being able to fulfil that role, nor even to do it well.
The concern I have with large groups is that it becomes difficult - and eventually impossible - to juggle all those players and keep them engaged. If that's happening, then there's no concern really, they're doing their job as DM. If it's not happening and they can't handle however many there are, then the solution isn't to whinge, it's to do what I did in that situation.
You DM your own group. Players will be attracted from the groups and hopefully you'll have three healthy sized groups rather than two large ones.
What you don't do is moan at the DM or call him out. You become part of the solution.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
DM doesn't HAVE to know your characters, especially if there are too many players. Sounds like this campaign is more combat-based rather than RP, Right?
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You never once described an actual problem happening. You say you're "pretty sure" they need to know your character, but what makes you pretty sure?
For those who are saying that my expectations are too high, I'm sorry for making it come across that way. This is my first session and I didn't know how the importance of the roles works. For those who are saying that the DM is probably overwhelmed, I do get that and I apologize if I made it seem like I didn't, because I know that it's a lot. It seems like a lot. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding that may have been interpreted incorrectly
Hey, hang on to your enthusiasm! Don’t let me or anyone else poo-poo that away. It’s what makes new players so great. Just try to keep some perspective is all.
D&D can teach us a lot of really good life lessons about kindness, brevity, patience, negotiation, sharing, cooperation, surrendering the spotlight, cherishing the quirks in others and generally getting along with a group of people you might not choose to be around otherwise. It will serve you well in life, in all kinds of situations that have nothing to do with gaming, if you embrace the opportunity.
That's all true, but the main thing it teaches us is to always loot the bodies.
I think OP is getting the main point (response o the question) that the DM has no real NEED to know much about the characters, regarding their skills and abilities. That's up to the players. Know what YOU can do and if you want to be an above average team member, knowing a bit about what your team mates can do is a boon. Not in a Meta type idea (like knowing what spells the Cleric has ready for example) but in a general way, knowing he casters tend to be squishy, recognizing the Rogue needs someone in melee of his target to score those big hits and so on. You can and often will learn some of your party's abilities and discover ways you can work with them for better results. hat's all player role.
The DM is going to keep the story rolling (you mention he offers good storylines) throw challenges at you and then, respond to how YOU face these challenges. While you can prepare for one way of addressing a challenge, the DM usually has to try and consider several different ways you might tackle a problem and plan accordingly. As folks say, there is a lot of work at that end of the table already and trying to keep the details of several PC's memorized on top of the normal stuff the DM needs front of mind is a big ask.
I don't see it noted, but how many are you thinking is too many players? My standard group is 4 players (we cycle who DM's) but we have had 5 and are looking at perhaps 6 players at times. Even with just the 4, we all (the 3 of our 5 person regular group that DM) often forget certain things our players can do. As well, there are times the DM may know something one of the PC's could do to make something trivial, but it's up to the PC to try it. The DM should never offer advice on how to resolve a problem they placed in front of you.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
You aren’t doing anything wrong by asking for advice here. We’re here to help. As some have said, and I agree with, the DM doesn’t need to know everything about your character. For some DMs just knowing the classes are enough to build wonderful encounters and campaigns.
If there are certain aspects of a player’s character’s backstory that they would like to flesh out in the campaign then the player should speak privately to the DM to see if they can work something in.
I tend to only write a paragraph or so for backstory and let the rest develop as we play. But some player’s write a novella that they expect the DM to read. DMs usually don’t have the time to read 8 chapters of how your character (not saying you are doing this, but I’ve read about this happening) started as a farmers child and eventually overthrew the evil king and helped slay a dragon all before they decided to become a 1st level character.
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https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
One of the great failings of DnD is how it encourages developing the campaign and the characters separately. In the worst case, you have no coordination and just cram everything together into the campaign that the DM decides on. Slightly better is the more common situation where the DM decides the campaign and the players make characters that fit into it.
What I prefer is a strong session zero where everyone makes characters and the campaign world together and the DM sets up the story that follows from those. It's possible to do in DnD, but it certainly isn't the default.
you say there is too many people and that you have had to split up into two groups and even then you believe there are to many people in the group how many people total do you have and how many people do you believe is too many?
I'd happily argue that the game is significantly improved by the GM not reading the sheets. If the GM actually knows the sheets, everything will be tailored to what the PC's can do. Difficulty will be matched with character strength, skill challenges will always be for stuff the PC's actually knows, everything will be curated, and boring, and samey.
Much better to have a GM who's blissfully unaware, and throws challenges at you that you are actually forced to improvice to overcome.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I don’t know if this stems from module based playing. When I played AD&D we almost exclusively played modules in Greyhawk, with not a whole lot “world building” outside of those. So backstory for PC’s wasn’t a focus. Published modules/campaigns cannot take into account player’s character backgrounds so they kind of have to be kept separate.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
You're not dumb but there is no reason for the DM to have your character sheets memorized. It's your job to know what your character can and can't do. It's the DM's job to determine if what you're attempting to do fits in the rules. If the DM focuses too much on your character sheets then it's meta-gaming as he's now crafting everything with the intent to harm or help your characters.
I would also point out that if this is a club where people drop in and out as they're able the expectations on the DM should be to have a compelling session. Asking him to keep track of, and specifically include content (story, encounters, nemesis, etc.) for specific characters is too difficult if that character may not even be there for it. Big picture: if you have any issues with any DM talk to them first and ask how you can be part of the solution, maybe he just needs a little help.