If a Dragon's breath weapon is a 300foot by 60foot cone (let's presume), then if you're dead center so that there's 30 foot movement on either side, then unless your character can move faster than 30ft I would argue it is only reasonable that said character gets no saving throw whatsoever.
I'm sure there's other things that this applies to, spells and what not, but I just can't imagine running a game where you get hit with an inferno that engulfs an entire town and even though you're dead center of the blast you can just saving throw your way out of it?
That would be why those effects do half damage on a successful save, yes. This could represent turning your body to present less surface area to the blast, or briefly dropping prone to avoid a direct impact. But honestly, Dexterity saving throws are primarily a game conceit; they don't represent any single real-world phenomenon except that the game is more fun with them than without them. D&D is full of these: in real life you can't sleep off a gunshot wound, combatants don't take turns, and dragons don't exist. If you want a strictly simulationist combat experience that makes no concessions whatsoever to fantasy, I'd recommend you join a fencing club.
It's only 30' at the end of the cone. A successful saving throw is representing being able to dodge it or at least avoid the worst of it) or dive behind cover, or bring up your shield to reflect it, hiding behind someone else, or otherwise mitigating the blast.
It doesn't vary with all of those factors because it would slow down the game too much. It's also a balancing factor - an unsavable AoE would need a higher slot/resource cost to balance - which pushes them to only be usable later in the game, making effectively inaccessible for a substantial portion of the game.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
In addition to the above, I think of the breath as not a solid. There’s going to be the different kinds of energy swirling around, thicker in some places and thinner in others. So maybe you just found a thinner spot. Or you were lucky and a thinner spot found you.
Nah. Automatic effects suck the fun out of rolling dice. Also how much worse would the martial-caster divide (caster privilege?) be if saves weren't allowed?
Dragon's breath does not do what you think it does. It is a biological attack, not a furnace designed to evenly and perfectly heat glass to a liquid form.
Even nuclear explosions have colder and hotter spots. Fat Man and Little boy are generally described as killing people in a 2 mile radius.
Tsutomu Yamaguchi was on a business trip inside that radius for Hiroshima. Not only did he survive, he could even walk, so he went home. To Nagaski. Where he was once again inside the two mile radius. He claims that the second bomb went off while he was being berated by his boss for exaggerating how badly a single bomb could be. Note, his wife and child survived as well - because they were out looking for burn medication for him rather than at their home which was destroyed.
Luckiest guy in all of Japan, he rolled four 20's for his and his family saving throws.
Dragons breath should have saving throws, if only to honor Yamaguchi.
If you try to insist that it's not possible to dodge a dragon's breath weapon in the real world, I feel it's only fair to insist that it's also not possible for a dragon to fly or breath fire in the real world.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If you try to insist that it's not possible to dodge a dragon's breath weapon in the real world, I feel it's only fair to insist that it's also not possible for a dragon to fly or breath fire in the real world.
There's a huge distinction. It's not possible to dodge in THE GAME WORLD if certain parameters are true. Namely if the cone is wider than. 30 feet in any direction of the target.
There's some discussion above whether or not that is the case.
It's not possible to dodge in THE GAME WORLD if certain parameters are true. Namely if the cone is wider than. 30 feet in any direction of the target.
There's some discussion above whether or not that is the case.
Sure you can. It's in the rules - if it says you get a Save, you get a Save. That's written into the game world itself. It's up to you to figure out how that should should be narrated, but those are the rules.
If you argue that a player shouldn't get a chance to dodge because that doesn't make sense in the real world, then dragons shouldn't fly - to argue that you can't dodge because it doesn't work in the real world even though it's in the game rules but a dragon can shoot fire at you even though it doesn't work in the real world because it's in the game rules, then it's just patchy logic.
Note that it doesn't say that you didn't get a save if the distance is greater than 30ft. For example, Ancient Red Dragon has a 90ft on its breath ability - the only statement is that if you're in that areas you get a Dex Save to take half damage (no reference to how far from the edge you are, if you get to move or anything). Nor is it in the Saving Throws section.
If a DM were to implement this house rule in a game I was playing in, I'd want this mentioned in session zero a d I'd get annoyed if the first I heard of it were when they tried to enforce it.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
In the Disney version of Sleeping Beauty, the prince literally blocks the dragon breath with his shield. The PC could leap over or dive under or turn to present less surface area or any heroic explanation you wish.
The DM controls how much the base damage is. If they want it to be more dangerous, they can up the damage up front. If the DM is feeling a need to damage the party, they simply can. However, when it feels like there is nothing that can be done to counter, then it feels less an actual struggle just as surely as when the fight is too easy. A good DM seeks that middle ground where battle feels exciting rather than pointlessly easy or pointlessly difficult.
If you try to insist that it's not possible to dodge a dragon's breath weapon in the real world, I feel it's only fair to insist that it's also not possible for a dragon to fly or breath fire in the real world.
The AD&D DMG explicitly states a DM can adjust chances of avoiding death on dragon breath saves. It talks about a Fighter standing in water and metal armour when a Blue Dragon breathes on him. Or if you want to really dive into it, a Bard in leather armour, standing in a stream, but carrying a metal sword in one hand, acting when the Blue breathes lightning at the Bard. Bye bye Bard.
Or a Restrained Rogue, when the Red breathes fire. Bye Bye Rogue. Conversely, if that Rogue is standing in water, the DM can adjudicate that damage is lower, or non-existent, if the Rogue can dive under the water.
An AOE effect like a breath weapon hitting multiple five foot cubes does not mean that it completely fills those cubes. Plus, damage gets back to the abstraction of what hitpoints actually are.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Basically, you have a vision of a game that is very very different than those of the game designers and most of the player. Your concept is directly opposing what was intended (RAI), what they wrote (RAW), and also the rule of cool (much cooler to survive the dragon breath than to just fall over and die).
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If a Dragon's breath weapon is a 300foot by 60foot cone (let's presume), then if you're dead center so that there's 30 foot movement on either side, then unless your character can move faster than 30ft I would argue it is only reasonable that said character gets no saving throw whatsoever.
I'm sure there's other things that this applies to, spells and what not, but I just can't imagine running a game where you get hit with an inferno that engulfs an entire town and even though you're dead center of the blast you can just saving throw your way out of it?
[REDACTED]
That would be why those effects do half damage on a successful save, yes. This could represent turning your body to present less surface area to the blast, or briefly dropping prone to avoid a direct impact. But honestly, Dexterity saving throws are primarily a game conceit; they don't represent any single real-world phenomenon except that the game is more fun with them than without them. D&D is full of these: in real life you can't sleep off a gunshot wound, combatants don't take turns, and dragons don't exist. If you want a strictly simulationist combat experience that makes no concessions whatsoever to fantasy, I'd recommend you join a fencing club.
It's only 30' at the end of the cone. A successful saving throw is representing being able to dodge it or at least avoid the worst of it) or dive behind cover, or bring up your shield to reflect it, hiding behind someone else, or otherwise mitigating the blast.
It doesn't vary with all of those factors because it would slow down the game too much. It's also a balancing factor - an unsavable AoE would need a higher slot/resource cost to balance - which pushes them to only be usable later in the game, making effectively inaccessible for a substantial portion of the game.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
In addition to the above, I think of the breath as not a solid. There’s going to be the different kinds of energy swirling around, thicker in some places and thinner in others. So maybe you just found a thinner spot. Or you were lucky and a thinner spot found you.
Nah. Automatic effects suck the fun out of rolling dice. Also how much worse would the martial-caster divide (caster privilege?) be if saves weren't allowed?
Dragon's breath does not do what you think it does. It is a biological attack, not a furnace designed to evenly and perfectly heat glass to a liquid form.
Even nuclear explosions have colder and hotter spots. Fat Man and Little boy are generally described as killing people in a 2 mile radius.
Tsutomu Yamaguchi was on a business trip inside that radius for Hiroshima. Not only did he survive, he could even walk, so he went home. To Nagaski. Where he was once again inside the two mile radius. He claims that the second bomb went off while he was being berated by his boss for exaggerating how badly a single bomb could be. Note, his wife and child survived as well - because they were out looking for burn medication for him rather than at their home which was destroyed.
Luckiest guy in all of Japan, he rolled four 20's for his and his family saving throws.
Dragons breath should have saving throws, if only to honor Yamaguchi.
If you try to insist that it's not possible to dodge a dragon's breath weapon in the real world, I feel it's only fair to insist that it's also not possible for a dragon to fly or breath fire in the real world.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
There's a huge distinction. It's not possible to dodge in THE GAME WORLD if certain parameters are true. Namely if the cone is wider than. 30 feet in any direction of the target.
There's some discussion above whether or not that is the case.
Sure you can. It's in the rules - if it says you get a Save, you get a Save. That's written into the game world itself. It's up to you to figure out how that should should be narrated, but those are the rules.
If you argue that a player shouldn't get a chance to dodge because that doesn't make sense in the real world, then dragons shouldn't fly - to argue that you can't dodge because it doesn't work in the real world even though it's in the game rules but a dragon can shoot fire at you even though it doesn't work in the real world because it's in the game rules, then it's just patchy logic.
Note that it doesn't say that you didn't get a save if the distance is greater than 30ft. For example, Ancient Red Dragon has a 90ft on its breath ability - the only statement is that if you're in that areas you get a Dex Save to take half damage (no reference to how far from the edge you are, if you get to move or anything). Nor is it in the Saving Throws section.
If a DM were to implement this house rule in a game I was playing in, I'd want this mentioned in session zero a d I'd get annoyed if the first I heard of it were when they tried to enforce it.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
In the Disney version of Sleeping Beauty, the prince literally blocks the dragon breath with his shield. The PC could leap over or dive under or turn to present less surface area or any heroic explanation you wish.
The DM controls how much the base damage is. If they want it to be more dangerous, they can up the damage up front. If the DM is feeling a need to damage the party, they simply can. However, when it feels like there is nothing that can be done to counter, then it feels less an actual struggle just as surely as when the fight is too easy. A good DM seeks that middle ground where battle feels exciting rather than pointlessly easy or pointlessly difficult.
The AD&D DMG explicitly states a DM can adjust chances of avoiding death on dragon breath saves. It talks about a Fighter standing in water and metal armour when a Blue Dragon breathes on him. Or if you want to really dive into it, a Bard in leather armour, standing in a stream, but carrying a metal sword in one hand, acting when the Blue breathes lightning at the Bard. Bye bye Bard.
Or a Restrained Rogue, when the Red breathes fire. Bye Bye Rogue. Conversely, if that Rogue is standing in water, the DM can adjudicate that damage is lower, or non-existent, if the Rogue can dive under the water.
An AOE effect like a breath weapon hitting multiple five foot cubes does not mean that it completely fills those cubes. Plus, damage gets back to the abstraction of what hitpoints actually are.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Basically, you have a vision of a game that is very very different than those of the game designers and most of the player. Your concept is directly opposing what was intended (RAI), what they wrote (RAW), and also the rule of cool (much cooler to survive the dragon breath than to just fall over and die).