Not vaporware, but to be fair to anyone who gets that feeling; WOTC has been musing about virtual tables since the inception of 4e, so I get why anyone might be uncertain.
That said; my guess is that we'll hear about an open beta for subscribers around the time of the new book launch, or perhaps a bit later. Just a hunch.
Been playing D&D since Red Box Basic Rules was new.
I look forward to seeing the Demo VTT become a full-blown product just to see what the current developers have as a vision. Without access to it at the current stage, it's impossible to know how good it will be in any aspect. The rest is just imagination.
We might see something this summer. One of the GenCon panels is:
Panel: D&D’s Digital Tabletop Future
Sunday, August 4
1:00 p.m. – 2:00 p.m.
Indiana Convention Center, Room 232
Come see what Wizards of the Coast has in store for the future of tabletop play in the digital realm!
I read “tabletop play in the digital realm” to mean the VTT with a shiny new coat of marketing spin. Though it could also be about dndbeyond. Or both. Or something else entirely, of course.
Of course, the VTT has as it's primary focus to allow a videogame-like experience, while playing DND. What they want is to draw in all those kids who played BG3, and make them start playing DND. And here's how they're going to do that:
For all published adventures, there'll be a VTT package consisting of voiced NPC's, 3d maps, unique spell effects, dice, tabletop backgrounds - all that jazz.
There will also be user tools to build your own. Please note that precious few of us have the skill or patience to build good 3d maps. The tools will be there, but there'll be much simpler 2d tools to go along with them. So that someone like me, who has barely any patience for prep work, can still use it. It might even be good enough that preparation becomes so quick that I start doing it, rather than improvise.
At the same time, there will be numerous strategic restrictions, because they don't want their own VTT to become a competitor. There'll be safeguards to ensure you cannot use the VTT to create actual computer games, and that you cannot publish competing works. You'll be able to make homebrew, but they'll be sure to make it so they can moneytize, if you somehow make something that's popular enough to interest them.
From a marketing or business perspective, this is all about A) binding the community to WoTC, B) drawing new paying customers, and C) securing revenue streams. In principle, WoTC cares not a whit about providing tools to the community - everything is invisible to them, unless it's money. So all you need to do to understand how corporations work is ask yourself: How is this money.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
at the end of the day, a VTT is just an environment. If Talespire, Foundry Canvas, Roltable, or RPGStories dont turn it into a video game, then why would the DNDB VTT? it's literally the exact same concept. Taking VTT elements and just adding a third dimension to the presentation.
That's always been such a weird argument to me, as if just adding 3d makes everything a video game suddenly.
Well 4e gives some historical reason for concern. But one would hope they learned that lesson...
at the end of the day, a VTT is just an environment. If Talespire, Foundry Canvas, Roltable, or RPGStories dont turn it into a video game, then why would the DNDB VTT? it's literally the exact same concept. Taking VTT elements and just adding a third dimension to the presentation.
That's always been such a weird argument to me, as if just adding 3d makes everything a video game suddenly.
Well 4e gives some historical reason for concern. But one would hope they learned that lesson...
What happened with the D&D 4th edition virtual tabletop was an exceptionally unfortunate situation and far from a common occurrence
Of course, the VTT has as it's primary focus to allow a videogame-like experience, while playing DND. What they want is to draw in all those kids who played BG3, and make them start playing DND. And here's how they're going to do that:
I don't think they have any intention of a videogame-like experience. Also, they announced and demoed the VTT well before BG3 blew up. It seems reasonable to assume that the experience they showed in the demo videos is what they're going to be selling.
For all published adventures, there'll be a VTT package consisting of voiced NPC's, 3d maps, unique spell effects, dice, tabletop backgrounds - all that jazz.
Maps and virtual miniatures for the monsters and NPCs. Definitely no voiced NPCs -- it's expensive and also useless to DMs.
There will also be user tools to build your own. Please note that precious few of us have the skill or patience to build good 3d maps. The tools will be there, but there'll be much simpler 2d tools to go along with them. So that someone like me, who has barely any patience for prep work, can still use it. It might even be good enough that preparation becomes so quick that I start doing it, rather than improvise.
I expect this to look like the ability to pick what your floor looks like, control the height of bits of it, and a library of objects to put down on top of it. They'll likely have a set of basic types that come with, and you'll be able to buy more sets.
At the same time, there will be numerous strategic restrictions, because they don't want their own VTT to become a competitor. There'll be safeguards to ensure you cannot use the VTT to create actual computer games, and that you cannot publish competing works. You'll be able to make homebrew, but they'll be sure to make it so they can moneytize, if you somehow make something that's popular enough to interest them.
There is no reason to expect any type of automation at all. It will certainly not be able to create actual computer games or anything resembling one. That would be orders of magnitude harder than what they're promising.
From a marketing or business perspective, this is all about A) binding the community to WoTC, B) drawing new paying customers, and C) securing revenue streams. In principle, WoTC cares not a whit about providing tools to the community - everything is invisible to them, unless it's money. So all you need to do to understand how corporations work is ask yourself: How is this money.
They care about providing tools to the community, because if they're not making money at it somebody else will be. In the post-plague environment, VTT is a big enough market that it's worth the investment to them. The most likely monetization is the subscription, along with selling additional monsters, objects, and scenery. Player miniature customization options are very likely to be a thing -- I expect to see something like heroforge with many purchasable extras.
at the end of the day, a VTT is just an environment. If Talespire, Foundry Canvas, Roltable, or RPGStories dont turn it into a video game, then why would the DNDB VTT? it's literally the exact same concept. Taking VTT elements and just adding a third dimension to the presentation.
That's always been such a weird argument to me, as if just adding 3d makes everything a video game suddenly.
Well 4e gives some historical reason for concern. But one would hope they learned that lesson...
What happened with the D&D 4th edition virtual tabletop was an exceptionally unfortunate situation and far from a common occurrence
What happened with 4e with respect to a VTT? That edition is a black spot for me as spent a good couple of decades playing Rolemaster around then. I would make the joke that I spent a good couple of decades trying to finish one battle in Rolemaster, but it hits a bit too close to home, lol.
4e was built on the theory that if you make the rules themselves more computer game-y that they will be more enjoyable to modern players. This turned out so very much not to be true.
And Rolemaster is still my favourite system. Just make copies of the tables most used by any given player and hand them those copies. And other than that, tabs. Once you get everyone so equipped, it goes much quicker. And I much prefer a percentile based system for setting targets for skill checks
at the end of the day, a VTT is just an environment. If Talespire, Foundry Canvas, Roltable, or RPGStories dont turn it into a video game, then why would the DNDB VTT? it's literally the exact same concept. Taking VTT elements and just adding a third dimension to the presentation.
That's always been such a weird argument to me, as if just adding 3d makes everything a video game suddenly.
Well 4e gives some historical reason for concern. But one would hope they learned that lesson...
What happened with the D&D 4th edition virtual tabletop was an exceptionally unfortunate situation and far from a common occurrence
What happened with 4e with respect to a VTT? That edition is a black spot for me as spent a good couple of decades playing Rolemaster around then. I would make the joke that I spent a good couple of decades trying to finish one battle in Rolemaster, but it hits a bit too close to home, lol.
The person in charge of developing the VTT version of 4e (gleemax, was the site) committed suicide. And apparently hadn’t told anyone what they were doing or how, so no one could follow up their work, is what I recall.
Remind me again what I said, before I said anything else?
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Remind me again what I said, before I said anything else?
Nothing wrong with someone doing the work for you of putting hyperbole and conjecture into the context of the larger informed discussion being had. Everyone else is talking about information and plans that has actually been presented.
We might see something this summer. One of the GenCon panels is:
Panel: D&D’s Digital Tabletop Future
Sunday, August 4
1:00 p.m. – 2:00 p.m.
Indiana Convention Center, Room 232
Come see what Wizards of the Coast has in store for the future of tabletop play in the digital realm!
I read “tabletop play in the digital realm” to mean the VTT with a shiny new coat of marketing spin. Though it could also be about dndbeyond. Or both. Or something else entirely, of course.
I think "tabletop play in the digital realm" may mean both reports on where the VTT in development stands, and the future DBB, and then how both fit into WotC's goal to be the primary supporter of all forms of D&D play. I could picture a panel consisting of someone speaking on behalf of the VTT, someone speaking on behalf of DBB, and someone from WotC showing how both halves represent WotC's effort to cater to all players wanting to whatever level of digital they want into their games. DBB is more immediate and will be immediately impacted by the new core, the VTT is still on the horizon and I could picture WotC juggling both in the same conversation trying to push a narrative of optimism (I'm not trying to sound cynical on that last note, I think WotC may well be right that if you look at the big picture good things are going on with D&D as a brand).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Remind me again what I said, before I said anything else?
Nothing wrong with someone doing the work for you of putting hyperbole and conjecture into the context of the larger informed discussion being had. Everyone else is talking about information and plans that has actually been presented.
We might see something this summer. One of the GenCon panels is:
Panel: D&D’s Digital Tabletop Future
Sunday, August 4
1:00 p.m. – 2:00 p.m.
Indiana Convention Center, Room 232
Come see what Wizards of the Coast has in store for the future of tabletop play in the digital realm!
I read “tabletop play in the digital realm” to mean the VTT with a shiny new coat of marketing spin. Though it could also be about dndbeyond. Or both. Or something else entirely, of course.
I think "tabletop play in the digital realm" may mean both reports on where the VTT in development stands, and the future DBB, and then how both fit into WotC's goal to be the primary supporter of all forms of D&D play. I could picture a panel consisting of someone speaking on behalf of the VTT, someone speaking on behalf of DBB, and someone from WotC showing how both halves represent WotC's effort to cater to all players wanting to whatever level of digital they want into their games. DBB is more immediate and will be immediately impacted by the new core, the VTT is still on the horizon and I could picture WotC juggling both in the same conversation trying to push a narrative of optimism (I'm not trying to sound cynical on that last note, I think WotC may well be right that if you look at the big picture good things are going on with D&D as a brand).
For a long time now, I’ve been holding out hope that they’ll roll out a dndbeyond 2.0 with the 2024 rules revision. This, about 6 weeks before the PHB, could be a good place to announce it. And I also bet if there is a 2.0, it will be built from the ground up with the intention of VTT integration. But that’s all speculation mixed with hope.
For a long time now, I’ve been holding out hope that they’ll roll out a dndbeyond 2.0 with the 2024 rules revision. This, about 6 weeks before the PHB, could be a good place to announce it. And I also bet if there is a 2.0, it will be built from the ground up with the intention of VTT integration. But that’s all speculation mixed with hope.
They really need to have done a bunch of work on the back-end to make 5e-revised work in DDB, and they've done at least one of them (backgrounds can provide feats now IIRC). I don't expect a rebuild of much of the user-facing part, but I have hopes that there's a bunch of back-end stuff waiting to go. Because it's going to require database changes, it makes more sense for it to come out all at once, rather than a piecemeal replacement of parts of the character builder over time.
I would hope that they're going to put it out for stress-testing before the new PHB rolls out, but I can't say I trust their judgement.
(I also don't expect it to offer the full freedom I'd try to design in were I in charge, but both scaling and usability for people who don't want to compose everything from primitives are things they have to actually care about.)
Remember how far out elder scrolls was announced? It certainly isn't vaporware, but its like an announcement that could draw interest for recruits. It also functions for informing players long long before it impacts their tables. I think its a fine decision. VTT has helped me stay gaming 5e consistently since 2018.
Coulda sworn I popped in here a few weeks ago, but yeah, def not vaporware. We're playtesting it all the time internally, and as someone who prefers the simpler VTTs like Owlbear and our own Maps, I'm pretty impressed.
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Your Friendly Neighborhood Community Manager (she/her) You can call me LT. :)
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Coulda sworn I popped in here a few weeks ago, but yeah, def not vaporware. We're playtesting it all the time internally, and as someone who prefers the simpler VTTs like Owlbear and our own Maps, I'm pretty impressed.
Nice to hear it is still in the works. Hopefully we can get a full update on the status and features being developed soon. I 100% agree by the way, something fully functional but not overly complex would certainly be my preference .
I have been using Talespire to supplement my players imaginations lately and I can see how a 3D table would be misused. If used responsibly I think it would be great but again...will we get it in the way that they showcased..I don't want to be negative but I am very doubtful at this point :(
Coulda sworn I popped in here a few weeks ago, but yeah, def not vaporware. We're playtesting it all the time internally, and as someone who prefers the simpler VTTs like Owlbear and our own Maps, I'm pretty impressed.
I am with you, I like simpler, though I don't mind being a player using Owlbear I do not like it as a DM, however I do really like the Maps tool here on DDB and use it in games I am DMing. Even in alpha it is a very useful tool that is getting better with every update it is also nice to see they are adding older books along with the new releases be the 1st or 3rd party. I also only play at physical tables with all players present, so it is more of a DTT than a VTT for my use case.
My concern is cost, how much to use the VTT and if we will need to buy content to play. Hopefully they will let us use the content from digital book purchases we have already to play with. Would not want a higher tier than Master to have to subscribe to.
They can't put up too many initial price gates, given they're the latecomers to the VTT market and Beyond20 already gives free integration of purchased content with other sites. My guess is they'll look to sell character and map design stuff, tokens, that sort of thing. Basically take the old map and figure market and make it virtual.
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Not vaporware, but to be fair to anyone who gets that feeling; WOTC has been musing about virtual tables since the inception of 4e, so I get why anyone might be uncertain.
That said; my guess is that we'll hear about an open beta for subscribers around the time of the new book launch, or perhaps a bit later. Just a hunch.
Been playing D&D since Red Box Basic Rules was new.
I look forward to seeing the Demo VTT become a full-blown product just to see what the current developers have as a vision. Without access to it at the current stage, it's impossible to know how good it will be in any aspect. The rest is just imagination.
We might see something this summer. One of the GenCon panels is:
Panel: D&D’s Digital Tabletop Future
Come see what Wizards of the Coast has in store for the future of tabletop play in the digital realm!
I read “tabletop play in the digital realm” to mean the VTT with a shiny new coat of marketing spin. Though it could also be about dndbeyond. Or both. Or something else entirely, of course.
Warning: This is all hyperbole and conjecture.
Of course, the VTT has as it's primary focus to allow a videogame-like experience, while playing DND. What they want is to draw in all those kids who played BG3, and make them start playing DND. And here's how they're going to do that:
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Well 4e gives some historical reason for concern. But one would hope they learned that lesson...
What happened with the D&D 4th edition virtual tabletop was an exceptionally unfortunate situation and far from a common occurrence
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
I don't think they have any intention of a videogame-like experience. Also, they announced and demoed the VTT well before BG3 blew up. It seems reasonable to assume that the experience they showed in the demo videos is what they're going to be selling.
Maps and virtual miniatures for the monsters and NPCs. Definitely no voiced NPCs -- it's expensive and also useless to DMs.
I expect this to look like the ability to pick what your floor looks like, control the height of bits of it, and a library of objects to put down on top of it. They'll likely have a set of basic types that come with, and you'll be able to buy more sets.
There is no reason to expect any type of automation at all. It will certainly not be able to create actual computer games or anything resembling one. That would be orders of magnitude harder than what they're promising.
They care about providing tools to the community, because if they're not making money at it somebody else will be. In the post-plague environment, VTT is a big enough market that it's worth the investment to them. The most likely monetization is the subscription, along with selling additional monsters, objects, and scenery. Player miniature customization options are very likely to be a thing -- I expect to see something like heroforge with many purchasable extras.
4e was built on the theory that if you make the rules themselves more computer game-y that they will be more enjoyable to modern players. This turned out so very much not to be true.
And Rolemaster is still my favourite system. Just make copies of the tables most used by any given player and hand them those copies. And other than that, tabs. Once you get everyone so equipped, it goes much quicker. And I much prefer a percentile based system for setting targets for skill checks
The person in charge of developing the VTT version of 4e (gleemax, was the site) committed suicide. And apparently hadn’t told anyone what they were doing or how, so no one could follow up their work, is what I recall.
Remind me again what I said, before I said anything else?
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Nothing wrong with someone doing the work for you of putting hyperbole and conjecture into the context of the larger informed discussion being had. Everyone else is talking about information and plans that has actually been presented.
I think "tabletop play in the digital realm" may mean both reports on where the VTT in development stands, and the future DBB, and then how both fit into WotC's goal to be the primary supporter of all forms of D&D play. I could picture a panel consisting of someone speaking on behalf of the VTT, someone speaking on behalf of DBB, and someone from WotC showing how both halves represent WotC's effort to cater to all players wanting to whatever level of digital they want into their games. DBB is more immediate and will be immediately impacted by the new core, the VTT is still on the horizon and I could picture WotC juggling both in the same conversation trying to push a narrative of optimism (I'm not trying to sound cynical on that last note, I think WotC may well be right that if you look at the big picture good things are going on with D&D as a brand).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
For a long time now, I’ve been holding out hope that they’ll roll out a dndbeyond 2.0 with the 2024 rules revision. This, about 6 weeks before the PHB, could be a good place to announce it.
And I also bet if there is a 2.0, it will be built from the ground up with the intention of VTT integration.
But that’s all speculation mixed with hope.
They really need to have done a bunch of work on the back-end to make 5e-revised work in DDB, and they've done at least one of them (backgrounds can provide feats now IIRC). I don't expect a rebuild of much of the user-facing part, but I have hopes that there's a bunch of back-end stuff waiting to go. Because it's going to require database changes, it makes more sense for it to come out all at once, rather than a piecemeal replacement of parts of the character builder over time.
I would hope that they're going to put it out for stress-testing before the new PHB rolls out, but I can't say I trust their judgement.
(I also don't expect it to offer the full freedom I'd try to design in were I in charge, but both scaling and usability for people who don't want to compose everything from primitives are things they have to actually care about.)
Remember how far out elder scrolls was announced? It certainly isn't vaporware, but its like an announcement that could draw interest for recruits. It also functions for informing players long long before it impacts their tables. I think its a fine decision. VTT has helped me stay gaming 5e consistently since 2018.
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D&D StaffCoulda sworn I popped in here a few weeks ago, but yeah, def not vaporware. We're playtesting it all the time internally, and as someone who prefers the simpler VTTs like Owlbear and our own Maps, I'm pretty impressed.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Community Manager (she/her)
You can call me LT. :)
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Nice to hear it is still in the works. Hopefully we can get a full update on the status and features being developed soon. I 100% agree by the way, something fully functional but not overly complex would certainly be my preference .
I have been using Talespire to supplement my players imaginations lately and I can see how a 3D table would be misused. If used responsibly I think it would be great but again...will we get it in the way that they showcased..I don't want to be negative but I am very doubtful at this point :(
I am with you, I like simpler, though I don't mind being a player using Owlbear I do not like it as a DM, however I do really like the Maps tool here on DDB and use it in games I am DMing. Even in alpha it is a very useful tool that is getting better with every update it is also nice to see they are adding older books along with the new releases be the 1st or 3rd party. I also only play at physical tables with all players present, so it is more of a DTT than a VTT for my use case.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
My concern is cost, how much to use the VTT and if we will need to buy content to play. Hopefully they will let us use the content from digital book purchases we have already to play with. Would not want a higher tier than Master to have to subscribe to.
TO DEFEND: THIS IS THE PACT.
BUT WHEN LIFE LOSES ITS VALUE,
AND IS TAKEN FOR NAUGHT-
THEN THE PACT IS, TO AVENGE.
They can't put up too many initial price gates, given they're the latecomers to the VTT market and Beyond20 already gives free integration of purchased content with other sites. My guess is they'll look to sell character and map design stuff, tokens, that sort of thing. Basically take the old map and figure market and make it virtual.