the only thing id change about the paladin is the smites. As a half caster they had no reason to nerf their smites into the ground. once the paladin runs out of spell slots that's it no more smites. DS is just an extra 2d8 while there are other spells out there that do more for a 1st lvl spell slot.
tho its DnD i can just ask at the table if i can remove that needless limit of DS and if not ill just play another class.
Divine Smite has always used spell slots, so that’s not a change.
i know im just saying its a melee spell attack for 2d8 and it was nerfed to once per turn there are spells out there that do more at first level
And the characters casting those spells don't have as high hit points, don't wear heavy armor, don't have an aura (sorry emanation) that boosts their ally's saving throws, don't get a free magic horse, etc., etc. There's a lot more to a character than just the damage they can do with a single feature.
its fine iv decided i wont play with the smite limit and if the change cant be accommodated i just wont play the class.
Literally all they did with smites is flatten the curve from 2, possibly 3 shots per round to 1, while increasing your overall shots by 1. I’d call that a net buff, not a nerf.
Literally all they did with smites is flatten the curve from 2, possibly 3 shots per round to 1, while increasing your overall shots by 1. I’d call that a net buff, not a nerf.
It substantially reduces your alpha strike potential (in the 2014 rules, a reasonable level 5 PAM build could be doing 2d10+1d4+8d8+9 (58) in round 1; in the 2024 rules your max is something like a greatsword build for 4d6+3d8+8 (35)). It also means no smites on reaction attacks.
Literally all they did with smites is flatten the curve from 2, possibly 3 shots per round to 1, while increasing your overall shots by 1. I’d call that a net buff, not a nerf.
maybe to others but i just hate the limit of the smite once per turn. if i wanted to use 2 4th lvl spell slots on a smite to blow up boblin the goblin that was my choice. also to make it a spell? its a class feature you dont see wildshape being listed as a spell or other channel divinities. not to mention making it cost a BA to use also stops smite stacking as well. so they also removed that fully. they clipped the nova damage of the paladin hard which besides auras was their main thing.
Literally all they did with smites is flatten the curve from 2, possibly 3 shots per round to 1, while increasing your overall shots by 1. I’d call that a net buff, not a nerf.
It substantially reduces your alpha strike potential (in the 2014 rules, a reasonable level 5 PAM build could be doing 2d10+1d4+8d8+9 (58) in round 1; in the 2024 rules your max is something like a greatsword build for 4d6+3d8+8 (35)). It also means no smites on reaction attacks.
Well, good
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Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Literally all they did with smites is flatten the curve from 2, possibly 3 shots per round to 1, while increasing your overall shots by 1. I’d call that a net buff, not a nerf.
It substantially reduces your alpha strike potential (in the 2014 rules, a reasonable level 5 PAM build could be doing 2d10+1d4+8d8+9 (58) in round 1; in the 2024 rules your max is something like a greatsword build for 4d6+3d8+8 (35)). It also means no smites on reaction attacks.
Well, good
i bet wizards will still be just as op as they are now or prob getting a buff again
It is undoubtedly a nerf to divine smite (it's a buff to the other smite spells). However, it's packaged with a number of buffs. The new paladin is something of a sidegrade, whereas the new fighter was pure upgrade.
Literally all they did with smites is flatten the curve from 2, possibly 3 shots per round to 1, while increasing your overall shots by 1. I’d call that a net buff, not a nerf.
It substantially reduces your alpha strike potential (in the 2014 rules, a reasonable level 5 PAM build could be doing 2d10+1d4+8d8+9 (58) in round 1; in the 2024 rules your max is something like a greatsword build for 4d6+3d8+8 (35)). It also means no smites on reaction attacks.
Well, good
i bet wizards will still be just as op as they are now or prob getting a buff again
I can assure you, wizards have never felt OP at 5th level
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Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It is undoubtedly a nerf to divine smite (it's a buff to the other smite spells). However, it's packaged with a number of buffs. The new paladin is something of a sidegrade, whereas the new fighter was pure upgrade.
Literally all they did with smites is flatten the curve from 2, possibly 3 shots per round to 1, while increasing your overall shots by 1. I’d call that a net buff, not a nerf.
It substantially reduces your alpha strike potential (in the 2014 rules, a reasonable level 5 PAM build could be doing 2d10+1d4+8d8+9 (58) in round 1; in the 2024 rules your max is something like a greatsword build for 4d6+3d8+8 (35)). It also means no smites on reaction attacks.
Well, good
i bet wizards will still be just as op as they are now or prob getting a buff again
I can assure you, wizards have never felt OP at 5th level
i can assure you wizards get a huge power jump at 5th level larger then any martial class
It is undoubtedly a nerf to divine smite (it's a buff to the other smite spells). However, it's packaged with a number of buffs. The new paladin is something of a sidegrade, whereas the new fighter was pure upgrade.
Yeah, I was just talking about tamping down that nova damage
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Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It is undoubtedly a nerf to divine smite (it's a buff to the other smite spells). However, it's packaged with a number of buffs. The new paladin is something of a sidegrade, whereas the new fighter was pure upgrade.
Yeah, I was just talking about tamping down that nova damage
i dont think there was a need to tamper down the nova damage it was really the only thing letting them keep up with full casters in the later levels
Funny thing I'm recalling now: this question from the SAC related to Divine Smite and unarmed strikes 😅
Can a paladin use Divine Smite when they hit using an unarmed strike?
No. Divine Smite isn’t intended to work with unarmed strikes.
Divine Smite does work with a melee weapon attack, and an unarmed strike can be used to make such an attack. But the text of Divine Smite also refers to the “weapon’s damage,” and an unarmed strike isn’t a weapon.
If a DM decides to override this rule, no imbalance is created. Tying Divine Smite to weapons was a thematic choice on our part—paladins being traditionally associated with weapons. It was not a game balance choice.
Crawford actually commented on this kind of thing earlier in the UA process. He said there are a number of Sage Advice rulings they didn't actually like and wanted to change, but that the dev team were determined to "dance with who they arrived at the party with" and follow the current rules until such time as they had the power to redo them, like they're doing now. I forget the specific context of the quote, it might have been referring to Warlocks not automatically knowing their Patron spells (which is something they've since changed.)
i bet wizards will still be just as op as they are now or prob getting a buff again
For the terminally online, Wizards might seem like the worst problem in this game, but I can guarantee you that at most real-world tables the Paladin winning initiative and blowing up the boss monster (or "Boblin the Goblin" as you eloquently put it) with 2-4 full-bore smite crits before anyone else in the party or the DM even gets to do anything and ruining everyone's fun as a result, is far more common, no matter how awesome it feels for that paladin's player in the moment to hog the spotlight like that.
Funny thing I'm recalling now: this question from the SAC related to Divine Smite and unarmed strikes 😅
Can a paladin use Divine Smite when they hit using an unarmed strike?
No. Divine Smite isn’t intended to work with unarmed strikes.
Divine Smite does work with a melee weapon attack, and an unarmed strike can be used to make such an attack. But the text of Divine Smite also refers to the “weapon’s damage,” and an unarmed strike isn’t a weapon.
If a DM decides to override this rule, no imbalance is created. Tying Divine Smite to weapons was a thematic choice on our part—paladins being traditionally associated with weapons. It was not a game balance choice.
Crawford actually commented on this kind of thing earlier in the UA process. He said there are a number of Sage Advice rulings they didn't actually like and wanted to change, but that the dev team were determined to "dance with who they arrived at the party with" and follow the current rules until such time as they had the power to redo them, like they're doing now. I forget the specific context of the quote, it might have been referring to Warlocks not automatically knowing their Patron spells (which is something they've since changed.)
i bet wizards will still be just as op as they are now or prob getting a buff again
For the terminally online, Wizards might seem like the worst problem in this game, but I can guarantee you that at most real-world tables the Paladin winning initiative and blowing up the boss monster (or "Boblin the Goblin" as you eloquently put it) with 2-4 full-bore smite crits before anyone else in the party or the DM even gets to do anything and ruining everyone's fun as a result, is far more common, no matter how awesome it feels for that paladin's player in the moment to hog the spotlight like that.
1. how are you pulling parts like that in the quotes? 2. this is going to be hard to say without sounding like a butt but that sounds like a DM skill problem. you give your players 1 target to hit and that targets going to go down fast no matter what it is.
1. how are you pulling parts like that in the quotes? 2. this is going to be hard to say without sounding like a butt but that sounds like a DM skill problem. you give your players 1 target to hit and that targets going to go down fast no matter what it is.
The quoting system seems to have turned dysfunctional recently, but as for (2), no, it's not a DM skill problem when one character vastly outshines other characters who are nominally the same role.
1. how are you pulling parts like that in the quotes? 2. this is going to be hard to say without sounding like a butt but that sounds like a DM skill problem. you give your players 1 target to hit and that targets going to go down fast no matter what it is.
The quoting system seems to have turned dysfunctional recently, but as for (2), no, it's not a DM skill problem when one character vastly outshines other characters who are nominally the same role.
im still a new DM so this maybe were the experience is different but iv never had a problem with the paladin who power games at my table in terms of them blowing up a monster to fast and there not being enough for the players to attack
1. how are you pulling parts like that in the quotes? 2. this is going to be hard to say without sounding like a butt but that sounds like a DM skill problem. you give your players 1 target to hit and that targets going to go down fast no matter what it is.
You and I know that preventing or compensating for Paladin nova is quite doable - but that's not the feedback they've been getting from the majority of players, as noted during the UA process. And the majority are who they need to design the printed game for. You seem experienced, so you should have no problem houseruling multi-Smite back in if you really want it back that badly.
i appreciate the compliment and that will prob be what i end up doing i honestly didnt think the paladin needed any changes maybe a few tweaks to some minor things but limiting the plays option to nova damage wasnt one of them
1. how are you pulling parts like that in the quotes? 2. this is going to be hard to say without sounding like a butt but that sounds like a DM skill problem. you give your players 1 target to hit and that targets going to go down fast no matter what it is.
The quoting system seems to have turned dysfunctional recently, but as for (2), no, it's not a DM skill problem when one character vastly outshines other characters who are nominally the same role.
im still a new DM so this maybe were the experience is different but iv never had a problem with the paladin who power games at my table in terms of them blowing up a monster to fast and there not being enough for the players to attack
Probably just down to chance. It takes the stars to align (high Pally Initiative with slots still available, a nice crit just as the party engages with the BBEG.
I've not had a major problem with Pallys specifically, but there are a few nova builds...and they're a pain in the butt. I have a Gloomstalker that does ~40+ damage on an opening round (versus ~15 for everyone else). That's a beast to contend with because accounting for that can get the party killed if the GS screws up - or be boring if I don't account for it and the GS hits. I can still make it fun etc, just a PitA, and new DMs might not have the knowledge and/or confidence to deal with it.
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its fine iv decided i wont play with the smite limit and if the change cant be accommodated i just wont play the class.
or better yet since the rules arent taking over ill just use current paladin and their subclasses
Literally all they did with smites is flatten the curve from 2, possibly 3 shots per round to 1, while increasing your overall shots by 1. I’d call that a net buff, not a nerf.
It substantially reduces your alpha strike potential (in the 2014 rules, a reasonable level 5 PAM build could be doing 2d10+1d4+8d8+9 (58) in round 1; in the 2024 rules your max is something like a greatsword build for 4d6+3d8+8 (35)). It also means no smites on reaction attacks.
maybe to others but i just hate the limit of the smite once per turn. if i wanted to use 2 4th lvl spell slots on a smite to blow up boblin the goblin that was my choice. also to make it a spell? its a class feature you dont see wildshape being listed as a spell or other channel divinities. not to mention making it cost a BA to use also stops smite stacking as well. so they also removed that fully. they clipped the nova damage of the paladin hard which besides auras was their main thing.
Well, good
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
i bet wizards will still be just as op as they are now or prob getting a buff again
It is undoubtedly a nerf to divine smite (it's a buff to the other smite spells). However, it's packaged with a number of buffs. The new paladin is something of a sidegrade, whereas the new fighter was pure upgrade.
I can assure you, wizards have never felt OP at 5th level
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think that it is good for the game overall.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
i can assure you wizards get a huge power jump at 5th level larger then any martial class
Yeah, I was just talking about tamping down that nova damage
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
i dont think there was a need to tamper down the nova damage it was really the only thing letting them keep up with full casters in the later levels
Crawford actually commented on this kind of thing earlier in the UA process. He said there are a number of Sage Advice rulings they didn't actually like and wanted to change, but that the dev team were determined to "dance with who they arrived at the party with" and follow the current rules until such time as they had the power to redo them, like they're doing now. I forget the specific context of the quote, it might have been referring to Warlocks not automatically knowing their Patron spells (which is something they've since changed.)
For the terminally online, Wizards might seem like the worst problem in this game, but I can guarantee you that at most real-world tables the Paladin winning initiative and blowing up the boss monster (or "Boblin the Goblin" as you eloquently put it) with 2-4 full-bore smite crits before anyone else in the party or the DM even gets to do anything and ruining everyone's fun as a result, is far more common, no matter how awesome it feels for that paladin's player in the moment to hog the spotlight like that.
1. how are you pulling parts like that in the quotes?
2. this is going to be hard to say without sounding like a butt but that sounds like a DM skill problem. you give your players 1 target to hit and that targets going to go down fast no matter what it is.
The quoting system seems to have turned dysfunctional recently, but as for (2), no, it's not a DM skill problem when one character vastly outshines other characters who are nominally the same role.
im still a new DM so this maybe were the experience is different but iv never had a problem with the paladin who power games at my table in terms of them blowing up a monster to fast and there not being enough for the players to attack
You and I know that preventing or compensating for Paladin nova is quite doable - but that's not the feedback they've been getting from the majority of players, as noted during the UA process. And the majority are who they need to design the printed game for. You seem experienced, so you should have no problem houseruling multi-Smite back in if you really want it back that badly.
i appreciate the compliment and that will prob be what i end up doing i honestly didnt think the paladin needed any changes maybe a few tweaks to some minor things but limiting the plays option to nova damage wasnt one of them
Probably just down to chance. It takes the stars to align (high Pally Initiative with slots still available, a nice crit just as the party engages with the BBEG.
I've not had a major problem with Pallys specifically, but there are a few nova builds...and they're a pain in the butt. I have a Gloomstalker that does ~40+ damage on an opening round (versus ~15 for everyone else). That's a beast to contend with because accounting for that can get the party killed if the GS screws up - or be boring if I don't account for it and the GS hits. I can still make it fun etc, just a PitA, and new DMs might not have the knowledge and/or confidence to deal with it.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.