If the prime example of a Ranger being able to be the Explorer type is just gaining expertise in Survival, not only can Rogue do that, but at level 11, the Rogue could alway guarantee it being somewhere around 20~23, easily.
Rogues can't talk to animals or plants, they can't magically hone in on objects and creatures, they can't commune with nature...
The Bard can get Expertise in the same way, plus has a variety of spells, including the chance to take spells from any spell list, including the Druid and Ranger spell list.
2) Yes, you can build a Bard to be great at exploring. You can also build a bard to be great at healing, or blasting, or mind control etc. The whole point of a Bard is that they're the Red Mage of D&D (in fact, they're literally where Red Mage came from.) But every direction you take your Bard has a huge opportunity cost because of their spells known mechanic - they can do anything, but they can't do everything. That's completely fine. "Bards can be good at exploring too" does not take anything away from Ranger, it just means that if you want a wilderness explorer character you have options. That's a good thing in a game where the average party size is 4 people.
It just pigeonholes the class as a whole so much that the experience of a Ranger just doesn't feel unique anymore.
Friend, respectfully, I feel like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth on this one. Is the class too limited, too inflexible, too pigeonholed? Or is it too broad, too general, not unique enough? This is why people aren't getting what you're saying: you are making contradictory points, sometimes even in the same sentence. What do you actually want the Ranger to be?
It just pigeonholes the class as a whole so much that the experience of a Ranger just doesn't feel unique anymore.
Friend, respectfully, I feel like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth on this one. Is the class too limited, too inflexible, too pigeonholed? Or is it too broad, too general, not unique enough? This is why people aren't getting what you're saying: you are making contradictory points, sometimes even in the same sentence. What do you actually want the Ranger to be?
He wants Aragorn with no spells. Because getting an ability from a spell means it doesn't count, or something.
I at least know I'm not the only one, looking at the YouTube comments for the Ranger video. Again, I'm glad some people are able to get enjoyment out of this thinly made HM on a stick class. Genuinely. It just sucks that the uniqueness about it feels gone.
I am probably just going to slap weapon mastery onto the Tasha ranger and use the new subclasses and call it a day. I could go with favored foe or favored enemy if I want, I still get the deft explorer, roving and tireless features, I get more uses of and earlier uses of nature's veil and primeval awareness i get to trade for primal awareness which gives me more spells. So if I want I can get expertise in say nature, while also having advantage to track or recall information about specific enemies, more spells with primal awareness and all I lose out on from 2024 is the hunter's mark stuff, which I wasn't using anyway and expertise and I get Nature's veil earlier.
2024 Ranger is better in every way than Tasha's ranger if you look at it objectively. There's just a lot of emotion around the Hunter's Mark focus that's clouding people's judgement around what the class can actually do. A Ranger who never casts Hunters' Mark even once can still do great damage and have a lot of utility in the social and especially exploration pillars.
It just pigeonholes the class as a whole so much that the experience of a Ranger just doesn't feel unique anymore.
Friend, respectfully, I feel like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth on this one. Is the class too limited, too inflexible, too pigeonholed? Or is it too broad, too general, not unique enough? This is why people aren't getting what you're saying: you are making contradictory points, sometimes even in the same sentence. What do you actually want the Ranger to be?
He wants Aragorn with no spells. Because getting an ability from a spell means it doesn't count, or something.
Except Aragorn is actually more of a Fighter, with some Paladin and a little Ranger sprinkled on top. If all they want is to live that fantasy, then they can make a Fighter and take 3 levels of Ranger for the Hunter subclass and call it a day
2024 Ranger is better in every way than Tasha's ranger if you look at it objectively. There's just a lot of emotion around the Hunter's Mark focus that's clouding people's judgement around what the class can actually do. A Ranger who never casts Hunters' Mark even once can still do great damage and have a lot of utility in the social and especially exploration pillars.
i mean to be fair the 2024 ranger uses every optional feature from tashas so they just took what was there and added a little more
If im using a longbow, how would I get more attacks out on the regular?
Beastmaster with Longbow = 4 attacks without a single feat or buff. +4d6 per round from HM.
I get the 2 attacks from the attack action and the bonus action pet attack. I dont see where the fourth attack is coming from.
Have you read the UA? The pet gets two attacks per Bonus Action at level 11 (Bestial Fury). 2+2=4.
In the UA the bonus HM damage was once per turn for the beast. Do we know if that restriction was removed so it might be 4 attacks but only 3d6. Sorry if this was already asked and answered. Still going through the post
For me, the issues with the new Ranger are tying so many of the features to Hunter;s Mark, although those levels are ones my gaming group rarely get to anyways, so it's more of a theorycrafting issue than a gameplay issue. It also has what seems to be the worst capstone of any class (at least off the top of my head).
Removing concentration from some of the spells, or better yet, allowing some of the higher level buff spells to qualify as Hunter's Mark for class feature purposes would go a long ways towards reducing, maybe eliminating any issues I have - as those issues aren't really with the power levels, just with what seems to be (as we haven't seen the entirety of the class and spells yet) a straightjacket locking you into using one 1st level spell, at least if you don't want to deactivate 1/4 of your class features.
Or maybe those higher level Ranger spells are boosted enough to make that worth it - I don't know yet.
a straightjacket locking you into using one 1st level spell, at least if you don't want to deactivate 1/4 of your class features.
...Who cares if they get "deactivated" when you're concentrating on something else? The 2014 Ranger didn't even have features at those levels!
I just don't understand what's so agonizing about words on a page that you aren't actively using 100% of the time. I consider those bonuses whenever I'm using HM, not penalties whenever I'm not.
@ThriKreen: No clue, but even if it only applies to the Beast once, that's still +3d6 out of a 1st-level slot before reactions and buffs.
a straightjacket locking you into using one 1st level spell, at least if you don't want to deactivate 1/4 of your class features.
...Who cares if they get "deactivated" when you're concentrating on something else? The 2014 Ranger didn't even have features at those levels!
I just don't understand what's so agonizing about words on a page that you aren't actively using 100% of the time. I consider those bonuses whenever I'm using HM, not penalties whenever I'm not.
@ThriKreen: No clue, but even if it only applies to the Beast once, that's still +3d6 out of a 1st-level slot before reactions and buffs.
the 13th level feature does kinda feel like a kick in the teeth sure you cant lose concentration but at that point you just shouldnt really need concentration anymore then. Its deep enough no one would even dream of going ranger just for a con free hunters mark even more so at that level. Until we see the hunters mark spell (which they should have 100% shown in the ranger video) we cant fully say how good or bad the features or the 20th level capstone is. tho if its basically just the 2014 version then lord help the ranger because that capstone makes the monks 2014 capstone look amazing.
2024 Ranger is better in every way than Tasha's ranger if you look at it objectively. There's just a lot of emotion around the Hunter's Mark focus that's clouding people's judgement around what the class can actually do. A Ranger who never casts Hunters' Mark even once can still do great damage and have a lot of utility in the social and especially exploration pillars.
I don't get this. I added weapon mastery to the tasha's ranger. Other than that, hunter's mark and expertise at level 9 the 2024 ranger is exactly the same as the tasha's ranger except it uses the worse wisdom modifier instead of the proficiency bonus for number of uses and loses primal awareness which was free preparations and free castings of some spells that are better than hunter's mark and better for the exploration and social pillars and it loses the option for favored foe vs 2014 favored enemy. If I went 2014 favored enemy and took the rest of the tasha's options and gave them weapon mastery and put that along side the 2024 ranger I would do the same if not better damage with better spells with tasha, I would have more languages with tasha I would have 2 less skills with expertise but I would also have advantage on all rolls to track or recall information about specific enemies. I would be able to go invisible as a bonus action earlier and more often and I would be able to use most of my features more often. 2024 is a nerfed Tasha's without the optional choice of mixing some of its features with the 2014 features and weapon mastery slapped on it.
2024 is basically just tasha's with weapon mastery but worse.
a straightjacket locking you into using one 1st level spell, at least if you don't want to deactivate 1/4 of your class features.
...Who cares if they get "deactivated" when you're concentrating on something else? The 2014 Ranger didn't even have features at those levels!
I just don't understand what's so agonizing about words on a page that you aren't actively using 100% of the time. I consider those bonuses whenever I'm using HM, not penalties whenever I'm not.
@ThriKreen: No clue, but even if it only applies to the Beast once, that's still +3d6 out of a 1st-level slot before reactions and buffs.
Except they DIDN'T add to what was in tasha's they took away from what was in tasha's they took away the option to mix and match from 2014, they took away primal awareness spells. they took away the better level 20 feature, they took away the number of uses of several of the tasha's abilities, they pushed a level 10 ability back to level 14. The only thing they added was expertise and weapon mastery after they took away much more than they gave.
Except they DIDN'T add to what was in tasha's they took away from what was in tasha's they took away the option to mix and match from 2014, they took away primal awareness spells. they took away the better level 20 feature, they took away the number of uses of several of the tasha's abilities, they pushed a level 10 ability back to level 14. The only thing they added was expertise and weapon mastery after they took away much more than they gave.
I'll grant you the new capstone is pretty underwhelming, but it is on average better than the old one. Bear in mind that advantage against your Hunter's Mark target roughly doubles your crit rate; combining that with the larger damage die at level 20 will result in slightly higher average damage than the old Foe Slayer for most Rangers. Your other points have been largely addressed elsewhere in the thread but to be honest, if you really want to play a Tasha's Ranger with Weapon Mastery, I'm sure you could convince a DM to let you do that. I personally do not think that character will keep up with a 2024 Ranger in most contexts, but you seem to disagree and the option is available to you.
Except they DIDN'T add to what was in tasha's they took away from what was in tasha's they took away the option to mix and match from 2014, they took away primal awareness spells. they took away the better level 20 feature, they took away the number of uses of several of the tasha's abilities, they pushed a level 10 ability back to level 14. The only thing they added was expertise and weapon mastery after they took away much more than they gave.
"Mix and match" what exactly, the crappy 2014 ribbons? Simply by granting Expertise Tasha's beat all of them, and 2024 tripled that. Replacing Proficiency Bonus with Wis bonus is a buff until level 5 then a wash until level 9, then a wash again at 12 and then most campaigns are over. The ability they pushed back to 14 got buffed significantly. "They took away much more than they gave" is just wrong unless you weren't using spellcasting on your Ranger at all, in which case your opinion of the class isn't exactly valid.
Hello all, First time posting. I am sure that this 2024 design is fine, however I am not sure why Ranger is not a more modular type of class design. I feel like if they approached it where you can customize the abilities your ranger receives through their experiences it would satisfy the broad flavor and community of players, like the warlock. Such as the skillful scout, rugged explorer, primal magic martial, expert predator. Some theory crafting and napkin notes below:
TLDR: Make Rangers have Exploration Experiences, like Warlocks have Eldritch Invocations.
Ranger has the normal template, ASI, subclass features, spell casting at the same levels, all that stuff: With these 2 changes, and a lvl 20 update:
Spell: Hunter's Mark (Only found on Ranger Spell List) Cantrip - S,M Concentration, Free Action, Weapon Range - A target can be marked upon a successful weapon attack and takes an additional 1d4 damage each time you deal weapon damage. Duration 10 min (Think like Warlock Eldritch Blast, except on weapon attack success)
Natural Explorer - Experiences gained by Exploring. (Think Eldritch Invocations) The Ranger can pick any Exploration Experience appropriate for their level. Ranger Lvl # of Experiences 1 2 4 3 6 4 8 5 10 6 13 7 14 8 17 9 18 10
Exploration Experiences: We model them after 3 important flavorful aspects: Land: Exploration, Terrain, etc Primal: Magical, etc Hunting: Martial focus, etc
Examples: (Level Available - Name: Description) Land: 1 - Favored Terrain: Pick a terrain. While in terrain, you get jack of all trades, can't be lost, can't be surprised, and advantage on the following skill checks: animal handling, history, investigation, perception, stealth, survival, nature, medicine (This option can be re-selected for multiple favored terrain types) 4 - Exploration Expert: Gain Expertise in 2 of the following: Survival, Nature, Investigation, History (This option can be re-selected to get all 4 options) 6 - Roving1: Movement increased by 10 feet (This option can be re-selected) 6 - Roving2: Gain a climbing and swimming speed equal to your movement speed. 8 - Land's Stride1: Non magical difficult terrain doesn't slow you. 10 - Tireless: 2024 Tireless 14 - Land's Stride2: Magical difficult terrain doesn't slow you.
Primal: 1 - Marked: Hunter's Mark can now also be cast as using just S or V components, as a Bonus Action, at range of 120 feet. (No longer requires weapon attack or weapon, non combat option) 1 - Find Familiar: You have Find Familiar spell always prepared. 1 - Spell Mark: Hunter's mark can now be applied from spell damage on Ranger Spell List spells. (Base on Ranger Class Spell Level for MC issues) 4 - Tracking: You have advantage on the following skill checks associated with marked targets: survival, nature, perception, investigation, history, and animal handling. 6 - Wise Explorer: You can add your wisdom modifier to the following skill checks: nature, history, and investigation 6 - Mount: You have Find Steed always prepared. 10 - Nature's Veil: 2024 Nature's Veil 14 - Feral Senses: 2024 Feral Senses 14 - Master Marker: You can applied hunter's mark to all creatures that are hit with a single instance of damage. (Base on Ranger Class Spell Level for MC issues)
Hunting: 1 - Favored Enemy: You can expend a spell slot to enhance Hunter's mark, increasing the duration and having it deal an additional +1 damage based on the spell slot. (Lvl 5 slot = +5 dmg, totaling 1d4+5 dmg for each instance of damage) 1 - Relentless Hunter: 2024 Relentless Hunter 8 - Precise Hunter: 2024 Precise Hunter 10 Sap - You can now use the weapon mastery "Sap" on marked targets, regardless of weapon type. 10 Slow - You can now use the weapon mastery "Slow" on marked targets, regardless of weapon type. 14 Graze - You can now use the weapon mastery "Graze" on marked targets, regardless of weapon type. (This one, may be too much. But, remember, ideas and design and player fulfillment, number tuning later) 14 Hunter's Fury - Your Hunter's Mark now deals additional damage based on your Wisdom Modifier.
Ranger Level 20: Just make it something neat, and pretty powerful, broad, and synergistic. Master Ranger: Hunter's Mark no longer requires Concentration. (Combo things, go crazy, you are Max Level without Multiclassing) Hunter's Mark lasts 24 hours minimum. While in a Favored Terrain, you have Reliable Talent. (Since you have Jack of All Trades, you are very reliable at skill checks while in your terrain.) Foe Slayer, your Favored Enemy spell damage bonus is doubled. (Make that 5th level slot, feel very powerful)
So, yep, I am sure a lvl 20 Hunter Ranger, could cast Volley, burn a level 5 slot, burn a smite like slot, with sharpshooter and do something like weapon damage + Dex + 1d4 + 5 (favored enemy) + 5 (foe slayer) + Wis + 10 (sharpshooter) + smite slot dice, riders, and do it again next round with graze if you miss. (Dex + 1d4 + 5 (favored enemy) + 5 (foe slayer) + Wis) Or could pick 10 terrains, and have unbelievable skill checks where ever Or a can't be slowed, walks faster, turns invisible BA, spell caster that casts AoE spells through their familiar, dealing additional hunter's mark damage all the while with no weapon.
These are just design, napkin notes ideas. I just wanted to share. I think it just really helps the ranger be the class kit that is assembled by the player into the ideal adventurer they would want to be. It also let's more experiences occur, specific to subclasses so you can really put together a build you as the player sees their character to be.
Except they DIDN'T add to what was in tasha's they took away from what was in tasha's they took away the option to mix and match from 2014, they took away primal awareness spells. they took away the better level 20 feature, they took away the number of uses of several of the tasha's abilities, they pushed a level 10 ability back to level 14. The only thing they added was expertise and weapon mastery after they took away much more than they gave.
"Mix and match" what exactly, the crappy 2014 ribbons? Simply by granting Expertise Tasha's beat all of them, and 2024 tripled that. Replacing Proficiency Bonus with Wis bonus is a buff until level 5 then a wash until level 9, then a wash again at 12 and then most campaigns are over. The ability they pushed back to 14 got buffed significantly. "They took away much more than they gave" is just wrong unless you weren't using spellcasting on your Ranger at all, in which case your opinion of the class isn't exactly valid.
i like ribbon features tbh the help tie in a a class/subclasses look they are going for
Greetings, I haven’t been posting much lately but decided to weigh in finally. For those that don’t know me from earlier posts I’ve been playing rangers since 1979 (1e-) and seen the various changes. In the begining the ranger was a fighter subclass and didn’t get spells until mid/high level (tiers 3&4). It has always been outdoor/exploration focused but has slowly morphed into the closest thing the game has to a single class (ie no MC) Gish. In 2014 this was still true and the ranger was the pre-eminent outdoorsman/explorer. Via his “ribbon” abilities he got the equivalent of either expertise or advantage against selected terrains for nature/survival checks and tracking of selected “favoured enemies”. They also kept up with fighters in number of attacks until at least level 11. This was better than any other class at the time (except a rogue that “wasted” 2 expertises on nature and survival.) This changed with Xanther’s and the introduction of the scout rogue. This automatically got nature and survival expertise ( not just skill but expertise) in addition to the 4 expertises all rogues get. The scout rogue didn’t have to worry about the typer of terrain, the type of foe. Etc. with these expertises it could effectively match the ranger in their areas and outperform the ranger outside their areas making the scout rogue the new pre-eminent outdoorsman/explorer. The ranger still had their spells which helped along with their access to extra attack and fighting styles to make the class still be a powerful and useful class. Many of us discovered that the spells became more useful than the martial abilities somewhere in tiers 2 & 3. With Tasha’s many of the post Xanther’s martial complaints were addressed. during this time it also became clear (to me at least) that the exploration leg of the game was fading away as folks generally stopped paying attention to things like encumbrance, tracking rations and missiles, etc. Travel, even overland rather along trails, was being skipped in most cases as well. By and large the first UA ranger (UA2) solved this by granting the ranger 4 expertises it could apply anywhere along with gaining access to cantrips and spells at L1. It was an almost ideal Gish platform but there was little or no “Ranger Flavoring”. It took me a while to realize that the expertises had eliminated the need for all the “ribbons” because they were built into the expertises. If you chose nature and survival as 2 of your expertises you were now as good outdoors as the scout rogue and with your fighting and spell abilities along with medium armor you were in fact superior. I’m sorry they didn’t go with it. The second UA was a step back, basically an improved Tasha’s ranger. It wasn’t bad but it wasn’t as good as it could be. The version we are now seeing seems to have fixed many of the things the second UA still had problems with. The focus on Hunter’s Mark doesn’t really bother me as I recognize that the idea is to do as much damage as possible to the BBEG giving every ranger a chance at something like nova damage. HM isn’t meant for dealing with minions - zephyr strike and summon animals are far better. So having a few free castings and knowing the spell automatically is great as I no longer have to choose which to take at tier 1. Simalarly the big addition no one seems to have noticed with the hunter subclass is that you are no longer tied to one choice on things like colossus slayer and horde breaker- you can change them out on a long rest - huge improvement. Overall the 2024 ranger is a big improvement. It’s not exactly what I personally would have designed (. and probably not exactly what any of us would have designed) but it is a solid class with strong features. It’s spell casting is much improved - you are no longer tied to the spells you guessed at at lower levels, the entire list can be changed out in about a week to 10 days. Fighting ability is generally improved with weapon mastery. The major problems with beast master have been mostly addressed and improved. Gloomstalker has been toned down somewhat but then it was overpowered compared to other rangers especially in round 1. For me Aragorn is not a good model for a ranger as he is really a fighter with nature and survival skill proficiency. Really so is Legolas. For me, a better model are the mountain men of the early 1800’s in the USA. They were highly skilled woodsmen as well as stealthy and solid warriors. They had medical/healing skills, trapping and hunting skills and if we fit them into a fantasy setting they would have some magical skill as well. Some were hunters, some had beast companions, some made friends with almost every Native American tribe they encountered. You can find strength based, Dex based, wisdom based individuals to model after - in real life as well as fiction. I don’t like the lack of support for exploration/travel in 5e+ so I’m hoping the new PHB actually has something about it that helps but I doubt it sadly. Doing so, especially with showing how rangers do it vs say a fighter with just the skills would be sweet.
Rogues can't talk to animals or plants, they can't magically hone in on objects and creatures, they can't commune with nature...
1) Bards can't access Ranger-only spells anymore (without multiclassing.)
2) Yes, you can build a Bard to be great at exploring. You can also build a bard to be great at healing, or blasting, or mind control etc. The whole point of a Bard is that they're the Red Mage of D&D (in fact, they're literally where Red Mage came from.) But every direction you take your Bard has a huge opportunity cost because of their spells known mechanic - they can do anything, but they can't do everything. That's completely fine. "Bards can be good at exploring too" does not take anything away from Ranger, it just means that if you want a wilderness explorer character you have options. That's a good thing in a game where the average party size is 4 people.
Friend, respectfully, I feel like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth on this one. Is the class too limited, too inflexible, too pigeonholed? Or is it too broad, too general, not unique enough? This is why people aren't getting what you're saying: you are making contradictory points, sometimes even in the same sentence. What do you actually want the Ranger to be?
He wants Aragorn with no spells. Because getting an ability from a spell means it doesn't count, or something.
I at least know I'm not the only one, looking at the YouTube comments for the Ranger video. Again, I'm glad some people are able to get enjoyment out of this thinly made HM on a stick class. Genuinely. It just sucks that the uniqueness about it feels gone.
That's also not what I said. You're just being disrespectful and putting words in my mouth.
I am probably just going to slap weapon mastery onto the Tasha ranger and use the new subclasses and call it a day. I could go with favored foe or favored enemy if I want, I still get the deft explorer, roving and tireless features, I get more uses of and earlier uses of nature's veil and primeval awareness i get to trade for primal awareness which gives me more spells. So if I want I can get expertise in say nature, while also having advantage to track or recall information about specific enemies, more spells with primal awareness and all I lose out on from 2024 is the hunter's mark stuff, which I wasn't using anyway and expertise and I get Nature's veil earlier.
2024 Ranger is better in every way than Tasha's ranger if you look at it objectively. There's just a lot of emotion around the Hunter's Mark focus that's clouding people's judgement around what the class can actually do. A Ranger who never casts Hunters' Mark even once can still do great damage and have a lot of utility in the social and especially exploration pillars.
Except Aragorn is actually more of a Fighter, with some Paladin and a little Ranger sprinkled on top. If all they want is to live that fantasy, then they can make a Fighter and take 3 levels of Ranger for the Hunter subclass and call it a day
i mean to be fair the 2024 ranger uses every optional feature from tashas so they just took what was there and added a little more
In the UA the bonus HM damage was once per turn for the beast. Do we know if that restriction was removed so it might be 4 attacks but only 3d6. Sorry if this was already asked and answered. Still going through the post
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
For me, the issues with the new Ranger are tying so many of the features to Hunter;s Mark, although those levels are ones my gaming group rarely get to anyways, so it's more of a theorycrafting issue than a gameplay issue. It also has what seems to be the worst capstone of any class (at least off the top of my head).
Removing concentration from some of the spells, or better yet, allowing some of the higher level buff spells to qualify as Hunter's Mark for class feature purposes would go a long ways towards reducing, maybe eliminating any issues I have - as those issues aren't really with the power levels, just with what seems to be (as we haven't seen the entirety of the class and spells yet) a straightjacket locking you into using one 1st level spell, at least if you don't want to deactivate 1/4 of your class features.
Or maybe those higher level Ranger spells are boosted enough to make that worth it - I don't know yet.
Yes, that's how buffs work 😛
...Who cares if they get "deactivated" when you're concentrating on something else? The 2014 Ranger didn't even have features at those levels!
I just don't understand what's so agonizing about words on a page that you aren't actively using 100% of the time. I consider those bonuses whenever I'm using HM, not penalties whenever I'm not.
@ThriKreen: No clue, but even if it only applies to the Beast once, that's still +3d6 out of a 1st-level slot before reactions and buffs.
the 13th level feature does kinda feel like a kick in the teeth sure you cant lose concentration but at that point you just shouldnt really need concentration anymore then. Its deep enough no one would even dream of going ranger just for a con free hunters mark even more so at that level. Until we see the hunters mark spell (which they should have 100% shown in the ranger video) we cant fully say how good or bad the features or the 20th level capstone is. tho if its basically just the 2014 version then lord help the ranger because that capstone makes the monks 2014 capstone look amazing.
I don't get this. I added weapon mastery to the tasha's ranger. Other than that, hunter's mark and expertise at level 9 the 2024 ranger is exactly the same as the tasha's ranger except it uses the worse wisdom modifier instead of the proficiency bonus for number of uses and loses primal awareness which was free preparations and free castings of some spells that are better than hunter's mark and better for the exploration and social pillars and it loses the option for favored foe vs 2014 favored enemy. If I went 2014 favored enemy and took the rest of the tasha's options and gave them weapon mastery and put that along side the 2024 ranger I would do the same if not better damage with better spells with tasha, I would have more languages with tasha I would have 2 less skills with expertise but I would also have advantage on all rolls to track or recall information about specific enemies. I would be able to go invisible as a bonus action earlier and more often and I would be able to use most of my features more often. 2024 is a nerfed Tasha's without the optional choice of mixing some of its features with the 2014 features and weapon mastery slapped on it.
2024 is basically just tasha's with weapon mastery but worse.
Except they DIDN'T add to what was in tasha's they took away from what was in tasha's they took away the option to mix and match from 2014, they took away primal awareness spells. they took away the better level 20 feature, they took away the number of uses of several of the tasha's abilities, they pushed a level 10 ability back to level 14. The only thing they added was expertise and weapon mastery after they took away much more than they gave.
I'll grant you the new capstone is pretty underwhelming, but it is on average better than the old one. Bear in mind that advantage against your Hunter's Mark target roughly doubles your crit rate; combining that with the larger damage die at level 20 will result in slightly higher average damage than the old Foe Slayer for most Rangers. Your other points have been largely addressed elsewhere in the thread but to be honest, if you really want to play a Tasha's Ranger with Weapon Mastery, I'm sure you could convince a DM to let you do that. I personally do not think that character will keep up with a 2024 Ranger in most contexts, but you seem to disagree and the option is available to you.
This is objectively wrong and I'm tired of listing the reasons why.
"Mix and match" what exactly, the crappy 2014 ribbons? Simply by granting Expertise Tasha's beat all of them, and 2024 tripled that. Replacing Proficiency Bonus with Wis bonus is a buff until level 5 then a wash until level 9, then a wash again at 12 and then most campaigns are over. The ability they pushed back to 14 got buffed significantly. "They took away much more than they gave" is just wrong unless you weren't using spellcasting on your Ranger at all, in which case your opinion of the class isn't exactly valid.
Hello all,
First time posting. I am sure that this 2024 design is fine, however I am not sure why Ranger is not a more modular type of class design. I feel like if they approached it where you can customize the abilities your ranger receives through their experiences it would satisfy the broad flavor and community of players, like the warlock. Such as the skillful scout, rugged explorer, primal magic martial, expert predator. Some theory crafting and napkin notes below:
TLDR: Make Rangers have Exploration Experiences, like Warlocks have Eldritch Invocations.
Ranger has the normal template, ASI, subclass features, spell casting at the same levels, all that stuff:
With these 2 changes, and a lvl 20 update:
Spell: Hunter's Mark (Only found on Ranger Spell List)
Cantrip - S,M
Concentration, Free Action, Weapon Range - A target can be marked upon a successful weapon attack and takes an additional 1d4 damage each time you deal weapon damage.
Duration 10 min
(Think like Warlock Eldritch Blast, except on weapon attack success)
Natural Explorer - Experiences gained by Exploring. (Think Eldritch Invocations)
The Ranger can pick any Exploration Experience appropriate for their level.
Ranger Lvl # of Experiences
1 2
4 3
6 4
8 5
10 6
13 7
14 8
17 9
18 10
Exploration Experiences:
We model them after 3 important flavorful aspects:
Land: Exploration, Terrain, etc
Primal: Magical, etc
Hunting: Martial focus, etc
Examples: (Level Available - Name: Description)
Land:
1 - Favored Terrain: Pick a terrain. While in terrain, you get jack of all trades, can't be lost, can't be surprised, and advantage on the following skill checks: animal handling, history, investigation, perception, stealth, survival, nature, medicine (This option can be re-selected for multiple favored terrain types)
4 - Exploration Expert: Gain Expertise in 2 of the following: Survival, Nature, Investigation, History (This option can be re-selected to get all 4 options)
6 - Roving1: Movement increased by 10 feet (This option can be re-selected)
6 - Roving2: Gain a climbing and swimming speed equal to your movement speed.
8 - Land's Stride1: Non magical difficult terrain doesn't slow you.
10 - Tireless: 2024 Tireless
14 - Land's Stride2: Magical difficult terrain doesn't slow you.
Primal:
1 - Marked: Hunter's Mark can now also be cast as using just S or V components, as a Bonus Action, at range of 120 feet. (No longer requires weapon attack or weapon, non combat option)
1 - Find Familiar: You have Find Familiar spell always prepared.
1 - Spell Mark: Hunter's mark can now be applied from spell damage on Ranger Spell List spells. (Base on Ranger Class Spell Level for MC issues)
4 - Tracking: You have advantage on the following skill checks associated with marked targets: survival, nature, perception, investigation, history, and animal handling.
6 - Wise Explorer: You can add your wisdom modifier to the following skill checks: nature, history, and investigation
6 - Mount: You have Find Steed always prepared.
10 - Nature's Veil: 2024 Nature's Veil
14 - Feral Senses: 2024 Feral Senses
14 - Master Marker: You can applied hunter's mark to all creatures that are hit with a single instance of damage. (Base on Ranger Class Spell Level for MC issues)
Hunting:
1 - Favored Enemy: You can expend a spell slot to enhance Hunter's mark, increasing the duration and having it deal an additional +1 damage based on the spell slot. (Lvl 5 slot = +5 dmg, totaling 1d4+5 dmg for each instance of damage)
1 - Relentless Hunter: 2024 Relentless Hunter
8 - Precise Hunter: 2024 Precise Hunter
10 Sap - You can now use the weapon mastery "Sap" on marked targets, regardless of weapon type.
10 Slow - You can now use the weapon mastery "Slow" on marked targets, regardless of weapon type.
14 Graze - You can now use the weapon mastery "Graze" on marked targets, regardless of weapon type. (This one, may be too much. But, remember, ideas and design and player fulfillment, number tuning later)
14 Hunter's Fury - Your Hunter's Mark now deals additional damage based on your Wisdom Modifier.
Ranger Level 20: Just make it something neat, and pretty powerful, broad, and synergistic.
Master Ranger:
Hunter's Mark no longer requires Concentration. (Combo things, go crazy, you are Max Level without Multiclassing)
Hunter's Mark lasts 24 hours minimum.
While in a Favored Terrain, you have Reliable Talent. (Since you have Jack of All Trades, you are very reliable at skill checks while in your terrain.)
Foe Slayer, your Favored Enemy spell damage bonus is doubled. (Make that 5th level slot, feel very powerful)
So, yep, I am sure a lvl 20 Hunter Ranger, could cast Volley, burn a level 5 slot, burn a smite like slot, with sharpshooter and do something like
weapon damage + Dex + 1d4 + 5 (favored enemy) + 5 (foe slayer) + Wis + 10 (sharpshooter) + smite slot dice, riders, and do it again next round with graze if you miss. (Dex + 1d4 + 5 (favored enemy) + 5 (foe slayer) + Wis)
Or could pick 10 terrains, and have unbelievable skill checks where ever
Or a can't be slowed, walks faster, turns invisible BA, spell caster that casts AoE spells through their familiar, dealing additional hunter's mark damage all the while with no weapon.
These are just design, napkin notes ideas.
I just wanted to share.
I think it just really helps the ranger be the class kit that is assembled by the player into the ideal adventurer they would want to be.
It also let's more experiences occur, specific to subclasses so you can really put together a build you as the player sees their character to be.
Thanks for reading.
i like ribbon features tbh the help tie in a a class/subclasses look they are going for
Greetings, I haven’t been posting much lately but decided to weigh in finally. For those that don’t know me from earlier posts I’ve been playing rangers since 1979 (1e-) and seen the various changes. In the begining the ranger was a fighter subclass and didn’t get spells until mid/high level (tiers 3&4). It has always been outdoor/exploration focused but has slowly morphed into the closest thing the game has to a single class (ie no MC) Gish. In 2014 this was still true and the ranger was the pre-eminent outdoorsman/explorer. Via his “ribbon” abilities he got the equivalent of either expertise or advantage against selected terrains for nature/survival checks and tracking of selected “favoured enemies”. They also kept up with fighters in number of attacks until at least level 11. This was better than any other class at the time (except a rogue that “wasted” 2 expertises on nature and survival.) This changed with Xanther’s and the introduction of the scout rogue. This automatically got nature and survival expertise ( not just skill but expertise) in addition to the 4 expertises all rogues get. The scout rogue didn’t have to worry about the typer of terrain, the type of foe. Etc. with these expertises it could effectively match the ranger in their areas and outperform the ranger outside their areas making the scout rogue the new pre-eminent outdoorsman/explorer. The ranger still had their spells which helped along with their access to extra attack and fighting styles to make the class still be a powerful and useful class. Many of us discovered that the spells became more useful than the martial abilities somewhere in tiers 2 & 3. With Tasha’s many of the post Xanther’s martial complaints were addressed. during this time it also became clear (to me at least) that the exploration leg of the game was fading away as folks generally stopped paying attention to things like encumbrance, tracking rations and missiles, etc. Travel, even overland rather along trails, was being skipped in most cases as well. By and large the first UA ranger (UA2) solved this by granting the ranger 4 expertises it could apply anywhere along with gaining access to cantrips and spells at L1. It was an almost ideal Gish platform but there was little or no “Ranger Flavoring”. It took me a while to realize that the expertises had eliminated the need for all the “ribbons” because they were built into the expertises. If you chose nature and survival as 2 of your expertises you were now as good outdoors as the scout rogue and with your fighting and spell abilities along with medium armor you were in fact superior. I’m sorry they didn’t go with it. The second UA was a step back, basically an improved Tasha’s ranger. It wasn’t bad but it wasn’t as good as it could be. The version we are now seeing seems to have fixed many of the things the second UA still had problems with. The focus on Hunter’s Mark doesn’t really bother me as I recognize that the idea is to do as much damage as possible to the BBEG giving every ranger a chance at something like nova damage. HM isn’t meant for dealing with minions - zephyr strike and summon animals are far better. So having a few free castings and knowing the spell automatically is great as I no longer have to choose which to take at tier 1. Simalarly the big addition no one seems to have noticed with the hunter subclass is that you are no longer tied to one choice on things like colossus slayer and horde breaker- you can change them out on a long rest - huge improvement. Overall the 2024 ranger is a big improvement. It’s not exactly what I personally would have designed (. and probably not exactly what any of us would have designed) but it is a solid class with strong features. It’s spell casting is much improved - you are no longer tied to the spells you guessed at at lower levels, the entire list can be changed out in about a week to 10 days. Fighting ability is generally improved with weapon mastery. The major problems with beast master have been mostly addressed and improved. Gloomstalker has been toned down somewhat but then it was overpowered compared to other rangers especially in round 1.
For me Aragorn is not a good model for a ranger as he is really a fighter with nature and survival skill proficiency. Really so is Legolas. For me, a better model are the mountain men of the early 1800’s in the USA. They were highly skilled woodsmen as well as stealthy and solid warriors. They had medical/healing skills, trapping and hunting skills and if we fit them into a fantasy setting they would have some magical skill as well. Some were hunters, some had beast companions, some made friends with almost every Native American tribe they encountered. You can find strength based, Dex based, wisdom based individuals to model after - in real life as well as fiction. I don’t like the lack of support for exploration/travel in 5e+ so I’m hoping the new PHB actually has something about it that helps but I doubt it sadly. Doing so, especially with showing how rangers do it vs say a fighter with just the skills would be sweet.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.