Oh, for sure, there are several people here who do not see this as an update, but they're wrong. The core rules are the same; and the bulk of the content that's changing is remaining for selection in the character builder for those who purchased the original PHB. People are acting like this is a wide-reaching issue, but it isn't. We're talking about maybe four healing spells and a cantrip or two that have changed in a way that actually affects the character sheet integration, and in those cases, it's still a chocolate muffin. It just has a slightly different number of chocolate chips in it. There are a few spells that are changing more dramatically, namely the conjure spells, but the full original text remains in the compendium for everyone who owns those spells. They never had any character sheet behavior that's suddenly being changed.
If you don't want an extra die on your cure wounds, then yeah, it's a bit inconvenient to have to spend twenty seconds making a homebrew copy. And if the response were "hey, it kinda sucks that we have to do this," then this thread would be a lot shorter than it is, because that's a reasonable response. But acting like WotC is murdering your dog when what they're doing is changing a die in like five spells makes folks look absolutely unhinged to anyone who hasn't been suckered into thinking the problem is any more than that. The degree to which the outrage in this situation hinges on, at best, dramatic misunderstanding of what's going on and, at worst, outright intentional lies, is ridiculous.
There are plenty of core rules which are changing; the main ones that come to mind are the Hide action or the Shove and Grapple actions.
The main issue that I have with this breakdown is that I don't know where this "chocolate chips and blueberries" analogy starts or ends; there are a lot of spells that are changing along axes different to this. My players use DnD Beyond at the table as a reference, and I'm going to need to be pretty explicit with them about not using DnD Beyond after this date as the spells are no longer accurate.
A few examples of changes that are going to cause actual issues at the table:
"I cast Armor of Agathys and then attack."
"I cast Bless, and next turn I'll cast Divine Favor and attack."
Player rolls the healing dice according to what DnD Beyond says. Technically cheating - but the player likely doesn't even realize it.
My time and my players' time is precious and these are the kinds of things that are going to cause delays at the table.
Oh, for sure, there are several people here who do not see this as an update, but they're wrong. The core rules are the same; and the bulk of the content that's changing is remaining for selection in the character builder for those who purchased the original PHB. People are acting like this is a wide-reaching issue, but it isn't. We're talking about maybe four healing spells and a cantrip or two that have changed in a way that actually affects the character sheet integration, and in those cases, it's still a chocolate muffin. It just has a slightly different number of chocolate chips in it. There are a few spells that are changing more dramatically, namely the conjure spells, but the full original text remains in the compendium for everyone who owns those spells. They never had any character sheet behavior that's suddenly being changed.
If you don't want an extra die on your cure wounds, then yeah, it's a bit inconvenient to have to spend twenty seconds making a homebrew copy. And if the response were "hey, it kinda sucks that we have to do this," then this thread would be a lot shorter than it is, because that's a reasonable response. But acting like WotC is murdering your dog when what they're doing is changing a die in like five spells makes folks look absolutely unhinged to anyone who hasn't been suckered into thinking the problem is any more than that. The degree to which the outrage in this situation hinges on, at best, dramatic misunderstanding of what's going on and, at worst, outright intentional lies, is ridiculous.
There are plenty of core rules which are changing; the main ones that come to mind are the Hide action or the Shove and Grapple actions.
The main issue that I have with this breakdown is that I don't know where this "chocolate chips and blueberries" analogy starts or ends; there are a lot of spells that are changing along axes different to this. My players use DnD Beyond at the table as a reference, and I'm going to need to be pretty explicit with them about not using DnD Beyond after this date as the spells are no longer accurate.
A few examples of changes that are going to cause actual issues at the table:
"I cast Armor of Agathys and then attack."
"I cast Bless, and next turn I'll cast Divine Favor and attack."
Player rolls the healing dice according to what DnD Beyond says. Technically cheating - but the player likely doesn't even realize it.
My time and my players' time is precious and these are the kinds of things that are going to cause delays at the table.
Hiding, shoving, and grappling are not handled by the character sheet, so that's not relevant to the discussion. You still have whichever PHB you want to use, and the text there has the rules for those mechanics. And I already commented on the spells. It's only a handful of spells, but yeah, it sucks that you have to take a few minutes to copy them over as homebrew. It's a minor inconvenience, but it's an inconvenience. It's not "theft."
... "content being kept up to date" was part of the service they were paying for.
I'm having trouble finding this, actually. I loaded Tasha's and the 2014 PHB into my cart and searched all around the descriptions, but can't find this anywhere where it talks of using the features in the character builder. Now, there is the standard digital "we reserve the right to change anything and everything about the service, blah blah blah" in the terms and conditions, which I think we can all agree gives them the right to do it, but doesn't talk about keeping things up to date nor does it make changing things without a good reason any less sh*tty.
On the other hand, I'm finding very little in the way of language about the character builder integration details at all. Literally all I can find is something that seems to be unrelated to the (digital) book you're purchasing and this: "Purchasing a digital copy of this book unlocks it for use in the D&D BEYOND compendium and toolset. D&D BEYOND is the official digital toolset for DUNGEONS & DRAGONS. Create characters in minutes, play directly on your character sheets with digital dice..."
The compendium access has never been in danger. Indeed, it's what everyone is talking about when they say you still have access to the spells. And the "...unlocks it for use in the D&D BEYOND... toolset..." is vague enough to provide the wiggle room DNDB seems to be using for updating the spells (what, exactly, does "unlocks for use" mean? All features? Some? There are certainly aspects of the book that are not integrated into the toolset, but what IS integrated is not spelled out).
Like I said in the other thread, I have sympathy for the people who are upset, even if I, myself, consider these changes more errata than a version update, and especially if this quoted text doesn't actually exist. If it does, and I'm just not seeing it, then they certainly have less of a leg to stand on, but even still... unless there's a compelling technical reason not to just flag the spells as 2014 before creating the 2024 entries, I think they are unnecessarily pissing people off. And if there IS a technical reason, it would at least serve as a little bit of damage control to actually say that.
For anyone reading from that other thread, this is where my "entitlement" comment stems from.
Hiding, shoving, and grappling are not handled by the character sheet, so that's not relevant to the discussion. You still have whichever PHB you want to use, and the text there has the rules for those mechanics. And I already commented on the spells. It's only a handful of spells, but yeah, it sucks that you have to take a few minutes to copy them over as homebrew. It's a minor inconvenience, but it's an inconvenience. It's not "theft."
Shoving and Grappling are not currently handled by the character sheet, but they are becoming sub-items of Unarmed Strike, which is handled by the character sheet. If Shove and Grapple are not included in the line item for Unarmed Strike then DnD Beyond isn't a useful tool for PHB2024, and if they're included in the line item, they're inaccurate for 2014.
And yes, it does suck that I need to take time to copy them over as homebrew spells. It sucks because it's defeating the entire purpose of having a digital compendium of spells.
Theft... Well, kinda yeah. If people bought the books explicitly for integration with DnD Beyond, they were assured it'd function that way in perpetuity, and DnD Beyond no longer provides that functionality, that reads like breach of contract to me. Might not meet any formal definitions but I'd certainly feel like I'd been shafted.
It sucks because it's defeating the entire purpose of having a digital compendium of spells.
Theft... Well, kinda yeah. If people bought the books explicitly for integration with DnD Beyond, they were assured it'd function that way in perpetuity, and DnD Beyond no longer provides that functionality, that reads like breach of contract to me. Might not meet any formal definitions but I'd certainly feel like I'd been shafted.
For you and others where that was the only purpose of the purchase, sure. But don't be so presumptuous that that's the only reason anyone ever buys the digital product over a physical one or even in addition to the physical one. You still have access to those books and everything in them, and carrying around a phone, tablet, or even a laptop full of the purchases you've made has benefits well beyond character sheet integration.
And as I pointed out in my comment above, you were NEVER guaranteed anything in perpetuity with the digital product, or any digital product from any company, really.
And as I pointed out in my comment above, you were NEVER guaranteed anything in perpetuity with the digital product, or any digital product from any company, really.
Why is it that when we purchase a physical game product through an online vender like Exalted Funeral we get the pdf for that product for free? Why is Wizards of the Coast not only so adamant against guaranteeing any digital version of their rules will be maintained for those who have paid for that content but also adamant against providing a pdf for those who have already paid for a book
For you and others where that was the only purpose of the purchase, sure. But don't be so presumptuous that that's the only reason anyone ever buys the digital product over a physical one or even in addition to the physical one. You still have access to those books and everything in them, and carrying around a phone, tablet, or even a laptop full of the purchases you've made has benefits well beyond character sheet integration.
And as I pointed out in my comment above, you were NEVER guaranteed anything in perpetuity with the digital product, or any digital product from any company, really.
Other peoples' uses of the items that I purchase are of no concern to me. If I buy a car to drive places, I expect it to be able to drive. It is not fair for Tim to say that my purchase is still valid because he bought it to use the air conditioning, and it still fills that purpose for him.
And yeah, that's why I haven't put a dime into the digital store lol. I'm not buying bad product. There are other, better campaign management tools out there.
I don't understand why the users who are defending WotC, and telling others they're wrong/bad for wanting to continue using old versions of things, care? If it's possible for WotC to have both, why do you care that we want the old versions?
It's almost like 2024 supporters here WANT everyone to play the way 2024 supporters want to (ie. everyone should accept 2024 as better and be happy about it) and ONLY that way.
If we _could_ have both, why _shouldn't_ we have both?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
For you and others where that was the only purpose of the purchase, sure. But don't be so presumptuous that that's the only reason anyone ever buys the digital product over a physical one or even in addition to the physical one. You still have access to those books and everything in them, and carrying around a phone, tablet, or even a laptop full of the purchases you've made has benefits well beyond character sheet integration.
And as I pointed out in my comment above, you were NEVER guaranteed anything in perpetuity with the digital product, or any digital product from any company, really.
Other peoples' uses of the items that I purchase are of no concern to me. If I buy a car to drive places, I expect it to be able to drive. It is not fair for Tim to say that my purchase is still valid because he bought it to use the air conditioning, and it still fills that purpose for him.
And yeah, that's why I haven't put a dime into the digital store lol. I'm not buying bad product. There are other, better campaign management tools out there.
Apologies if I read the first quoted part as more general than you intended. I read it as "It sucks because it's defeating the entire purpose of [anyone] having a digital compendium of spells."
Apologies if I read the first quoted part as more general than you intended. I read it as "It sucks because it's defeating the entire purpose of [anyone] having a digital compendium of spells."
Yeah if you're planning on switching to 2024 on day dot there's not going to be a problem... But anyone who isn't the most diehard fanboy isn't going to do that because usually you want to read and understand the rules before you switch to them.
Again, 100% of users are currently using 5.0 rules and I'd be surprised if even 25% are planning to use 5.5 rules when they drop. And of those using 5.5 rules doubtless a good chunk them will be hybrid with also wanting to use 5.0 rules too.
Let's not pretend 5.0 is "cobwebs" by any means.
I don't know what representative sample your "surprise" is based on, but I'm specifically referring to the spells and items they've updated. I see no reason to stick with the old versions, or for them to double the literal hundreds of entries in the builder and tooltips with a slew of "Legacy" tags for these.
you know what they say about assuming right? im glad you dont care about your money and let WOTC do whatever they want with you but others care about what we bought and want to keep what we paid for. if someone takes what you paid for thats called theft or false advertisement
Except they didn't take anything from you, your 2014 books with the 2014 text for every spell and item in them are still there.
If your 2014 books were rendered inaccessible I'd say you have a point, but they haven't.
well if you WOTC supporters really feel that way then id say go change minds in the news and announcement form bc theres soooooo many wrong people there hating on poor weak little WOTC.
Time will change their minds (or they'll quit I guess), either way I don't have to do a thing.
Again, 100% of users are currently using 5.0 rules and I'd be surprised if even 25% are planning to use 5.5 rules when they drop. And of those using 5.5 rules doubtless a good chunk them will be hybrid with also wanting to use 5.0 rules too.
Let's not pretend 5.0 is "cobwebs" by any means.
I don't know what representative sample your "surprise" is based on, but I'm specifically referring to the spells and items they've updated. I see no reason to stick with the old versions, or for them to double the literal hundreds of entries in the builder and tooltips with a slew of "Legacy" tags for these.
Beyond can create a toggle for Legacy. We got a bunch of new toggles for third party content, so it is not like it cannot be done.
For me, I am not even asking for the toggle, I just want access to the old content on the character builder and sheets. The toggle is nice to have for me, but I can deal with a more messy drop down menu.
you know what they say about assuming right? im glad you dont care about your money and let WOTC do whatever they want with you but others care about what we bought and want to keep what we paid for. if someone takes what you paid for thats called theft or false advertisement
Except they didn't take anything from you, your 2014 books with the 2014 text for every spell and item in them are still there.
If your 2014 books were rendered inaccessible I'd say you have a point, but they haven't.
Beyond is taking away the integration between the 2014 books and the character builder/sheet. What sold a lot of us on Beyond was the convenience it provided so we do not have to manually integrate it ourselves. What kept many of us relatively calm was the precedent that VGTM/MTOF/MP:MOTM set that made old content Legacy but still accessible in the digital tools, and Wizard's/Beyond's insistence that the new books are not errata.
As far as I am concerned, Beyond only confirmed changes on the magic item side will be potions and spell scrolls according to their clarification post. While I know certain spells are changing, I do not know all the spells that are changing, and I am not aware of Beyond making any further clarifications on which spells we need to homebrew if we want to keep the 2014 version.
A lot of us do not have an alternative to walk away to. Going physical is out of the question for many of us who rely on the convenience of digital, and full physical is just an awful experience. Veteran D&D players who grew up with pen and paper might be okay with going full physical, but there is no way I would. Pivoting away to the other three official digital tool sets is not realistic either: Foundry is an automatic no for me since it barely supports 5e right now, and switching over Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds means I am losing access to VGTM and MTOF that I already have on Beyond. And switching systems is completely out of the question.
Again, 100% of users are currently using 5.0 rules and I'd be surprised if even 25% are planning to use 5.5 rules when they drop. And of those using 5.5 rules doubtless a good chunk them will be hybrid with also wanting to use 5.0 rules too.
Let's not pretend 5.0 is "cobwebs" by any means.
I don't know what representative sample your "surprise" is based on, but I'm specifically referring to the spells and items they've updated. I see no reason to stick with the old versions, or for them to double the literal hundreds of entries in the builder and tooltips with a slew of "Legacy" tags for these.
Beyond can create a toggle for Legacy. We got a bunch of new toggles for third party content, so it is not like it cannot be done.
For me, I am not even asking for the toggle, I just want access to the old content on the character builder and sheets. The toggle is nice to have for me, but I can deal with a more messy drop down menu.
you know what they say about assuming right? im glad you dont care about your money and let WOTC do whatever they want with you but others care about what we bought and want to keep what we paid for. if someone takes what you paid for thats called theft or false advertisement
Except they didn't take anything from you, your 2014 books with the 2014 text for every spell and item in them are still there.
If your 2014 books were rendered inaccessible I'd say you have a point, but they haven't.
Beyond is taking away the integration between the 2014 books and the character builder/sheet. What sold a lot of us on Beyond was the convenience it provided so we do not have to manually integrate it ourselves. What kept many of us relatively calm was the precedent that VGTM/MTOF/MP:MOTM set that made old content Legacy but still accessible in the digital tools, and Wizard's/Beyond's insistence that the new books are not errata.
As far as I am concerned, Beyond only confirmed changes on the magic item side will be potions and spell scrolls according to their clarification post. While I know certain spells are changing, I do not know all the spells that are changing, and I am not aware of Beyond making any further clarifications on which spells we need to homebrew if we want to keep the 2014 version.
A lot of us do not have an alternative to walk away to. Going physical is out of the question for many of us who rely on the convenience of digital, and full physical is just an awful experience. Veteran D&D players who grew up with pen and paper might be okay with going full physical, but there is no way I would. Pivoting away to the other three official digital tool sets is not realistic either: Foundry is an automatic no for me since it barely supports 5e right now, and switching over Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds means I am losing access to VGTM and MTOF that I already have on Beyond. And switching systems is completely out of the question.
Ive seen people compile the spells affected. Its 100 spells out of the 390 from 2014 PHB. Many have such minor changes it wont really affect play with 2014 5e rules.
As far as I am concerned, Beyond only confirmed changes on the magic item side will be potions and spell scrolls according to their clarification post. While I know certain spells are changing, I do not know all the spells that are changing, and I am not aware of Beyond making any further clarifications on which spells we need to homebrew if we want to keep the 2014 version.
I addressed this point in a different thread but you may not have seen it - content creators like Joefudge have covered the spellchanges in detail already, so that you can find out what you might want to start brewing now.
Again though, I have to question why so many are adamant on staying with 2014 spells across the board when the vast majority of changes are positive ones. Are people really clamoring for 2014 Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Barkskin, Flame Strike, Poison Spray, Ray of Sickness, Mirror Image, Hideous Laughter etc?
My biggest issue with the spells is that they haven't given us a definitive answer as to the fate of the 2014 spells that are not being included in the 2024 PHB in any way, shape, or form. Will those still be available in the character creation options, or in the scroll-over options for spells on our already-created characters (I'm looking at you, Booming Blade)
DDB has not been very transparent as to their intentions on quite a few things, creating a sense of betrayal, and causing many in the community to distrust them and their original claims regarding the 2014 5e content.
I suppose we'll find out on Sept. 3rd, but let it be noted that DDB may have a mass exodus on their hands if the community's fears of betrayal are realized. Not a threat, just speculation based off what has been posted here and in other topics on the forum. I and many others are holding our actions until then.
Ball's in your court, DDB. Just remember actions DO have consequences...
I don't understand why the users who are defending WotC, and telling others they're wrong/bad for wanting to continue using old versions of things, care? If it's possible for WotC to have both, why do you care that we want the old versions?
It's almost like 2024 supporters here WANT everyone to play the way 2024 supporters want to (ie. everyone should accept 2024 as better and be happy about it) and ONLY that way.
If we _could_ have both, why _shouldn't_ we have both?
Exactly this. There is no right or wrong way to play D&D. Except of course if people ain't playing it the way they want them to they are faced with a barrage of insults.
Again though, I have to question why so many are adamant on staying with 2014 spells across the board when the vast majority of changes are positive ones. Are people really clamoring for 2014 Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Barkskin, Flame Strike, Poison Spray, Ray of Sickness, Mirror Image, Hideous Laughter etc?
Some like to stick with 2014 books only (or less like just the core books), and I while I do not enjoy those types of games, it is their table and they can play however they want.
I plan to use both in tandem, and I let my players decide which version they like best. I want variety and options.
Again though, I have to question why so many are adamant on staying with 2014 spells across the board when the vast majority of changes are positive ones. Are people really clamoring for 2014 Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Barkskin, Flame Strike, Poison Spray, Ray of Sickness, Mirror Image, Hideous Laughter etc?
Some like to stick with 2014 books only (or less like just the core books), and I while I do not enjoy those types of games, it is their table and they can play however they want.
I plan to use both in tandem, and I let my players decide which version they like best. I want variety and options.
You can still use your 2014 books. You can also still (legally) play 4e and 3e if you want to. The online tools don't have to support those other ways of playing D&D though, fully or otherwise.
For those who do want to jump ship for Roll20 over this, I support that decision too. They have an official license with WotC so nobody is doing anything wrong by playing there instead of here. All I can say is that for me, DDB is still the most convenient tool around.
Again though, I have to question why so many are adamant on staying with 2014 spells across the board when the vast majority of changes are positive ones. Are people really clamoring for 2014 Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Barkskin, Flame Strike, Poison Spray, Ray of Sickness, Mirror Image, Hideous Laughter etc?
Some like to stick with 2014 books only (or less like just the core books), and I while I do not enjoy those types of games, it is their table and they can play however they want.
I plan to use both in tandem, and I let my players decide which version they like best. I want variety and options.
You can still use your 2014 books. You can also still (legally) play 4e and 3e if you want to. The online tools don't have to support those other ways of playing D&D though, fully or otherwise.
For those who do want to jump ship for Roll20 over this, I support that decision too. They have an official license with WotC so nobody is doing anything wrong by playing there instead of here. All I can say is that for me, DDB is still the most convenient tool around.
The issue is that we paid for the INTEGRATION of the 2014 books and the digital tools. We would have bought just the compendium content if we did not care about the digital tools. And now Beyond is taking away that INTEGRATION. We have been repeatedly told that the new books are new content and are not errata.
For those who can jump ship to Roll20, that is great. For many of us, that is not even remotely realistic. There is NO reasonable alternative, and all options have significant drawbacks. Even if we pivot to another digital platform, we would be losing out on content from VGTM, MTOF, and other Beyond content at the bare minimum, and Foundry's miniscule support for 5e is the worst digital option. Going physical and switching systems are both absolutely nonsense troll suggestions that many people voiced; I would not be on Beyond in the first place if I found physical palatable, and no other system comes even close to the tools and support that D&D has.
Beyond is still the most convenient tool for me right now, but its convenience is quickly going away. I feel trapped with Beyond because anything I decide on, I will be losing something regardless.
And then there is the cost of switching. Not every GM can afford to drop hundreds on the Legendary Bundle like I did, let alone buying digital and physical at the same time. For less well to do GMs, switching is not even an option.
Again, 100% of users are currently using 5.0 rules and I'd be surprised if even 25% are planning to use 5.5 rules when they drop. And of those using 5.5 rules doubtless a good chunk them will be hybrid with also wanting to use 5.0 rules too.
Let's not pretend 5.0 is "cobwebs" by any means.
I don't know what representative sample your "surprise" is based on, but I'm specifically referring to the spells and items they've updated. I see no reason to stick with the old versions, or for them to double the literal hundreds of entries in the builder and tooltips with a slew of "Legacy" tags for these.
Beyond can create a toggle for Legacy. We got a bunch of new toggles for third party content, so it is not like it cannot be done.
For me, I am not even asking for the toggle, I just want access to the old content on the character builder and sheets. The toggle is nice to have for me, but I can deal with a more messy drop down menu.
you know what they say about assuming right? im glad you dont care about your money and let WOTC do whatever they want with you but others care about what we bought and want to keep what we paid for. if someone takes what you paid for thats called theft or false advertisement
Except they didn't take anything from you, your 2014 books with the 2014 text for every spell and item in them are still there.
If your 2014 books were rendered inaccessible I'd say you have a point, but they haven't.
Beyond is taking away the integration between the 2014 books and the character builder/sheet. What sold a lot of us on Beyond was the convenience it provided so we do not have to manually integrate it ourselves. What kept many of us relatively calm was the precedent that VGTM/MTOF/MP:MOTM set that made old content Legacy but still accessible in the digital tools, and Wizard's/Beyond's insistence that the new books are not errata.
As far as I am concerned, Beyond only confirmed changes on the magic item side will be potions and spell scrolls according to their clarification post. While I know certain spells are changing, I do not know all the spells that are changing, and I am not aware of Beyond making any further clarifications on which spells we need to homebrew if we want to keep the 2014 version.
A lot of us do not have an alternative to walk away to. Going physical is out of the question for many of us who rely on the convenience of digital, and full physical is just an awful experience. Veteran D&D players who grew up with pen and paper might be okay with going full physical, but there is no way I would. Pivoting away to the other three official digital tool sets is not realistic either: Foundry is an automatic no for me since it barely supports 5e right now, and switching over Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds means I am losing access to VGTM and MTOF that I already have on Beyond. And switching systems is completely out of the question.
Ive seen people compile the spells affected. Its 100 spells out of the 390 from 2014 PHB. Many have such minor changes it wont really affect play with 2014 5e rules.
This is for now, if this the setting of precedent for the future that list will continue to grow. As much as new editions cause issues I would gladly take that over this goat rope everytime a new book comes out, this is going to make it unnecessarily difficult to try new stuff and roll back if you and your table don't like it. It is removing the greatest (to many) thing about D&D and TTRPGS in general you can play it how you want to as long as the people in your game are ok with it. This fundamentally changes the game from that hey let's do this to the equivalent of a wizbro inspector standing over your shoulder telling you how to play and when to buy books.
There are plenty of core rules which are changing; the main ones that come to mind are the Hide action or the Shove and Grapple actions.
The main issue that I have with this breakdown is that I don't know where this "chocolate chips and blueberries" analogy starts or ends; there are a lot of spells that are changing along axes different to this. My players use DnD Beyond at the table as a reference, and I'm going to need to be pretty explicit with them about not using DnD Beyond after this date as the spells are no longer accurate.
A few examples of changes that are going to cause actual issues at the table:
My time and my players' time is precious and these are the kinds of things that are going to cause delays at the table.
Hiding, shoving, and grappling are not handled by the character sheet, so that's not relevant to the discussion. You still have whichever PHB you want to use, and the text there has the rules for those mechanics. And I already commented on the spells. It's only a handful of spells, but yeah, it sucks that you have to take a few minutes to copy them over as homebrew. It's a minor inconvenience, but it's an inconvenience. It's not "theft."
I'm having trouble finding this, actually. I loaded Tasha's and the 2014 PHB into my cart and searched all around the descriptions, but can't find this anywhere where it talks of using the features in the character builder. Now, there is the standard digital "we reserve the right to change anything and everything about the service, blah blah blah" in the terms and conditions, which I think we can all agree gives them the right to do it, but doesn't talk about keeping things up to date nor does it make changing things without a good reason any less sh*tty.
On the other hand, I'm finding very little in the way of language about the character builder integration details at all. Literally all I can find is something that seems to be unrelated to the (digital) book you're purchasing and this: "Purchasing a digital copy of this book unlocks it for use in the D&D BEYOND compendium and toolset. D&D BEYOND is the official digital toolset for DUNGEONS & DRAGONS. Create characters in minutes, play directly on your character sheets with digital dice..."
The compendium access has never been in danger. Indeed, it's what everyone is talking about when they say you still have access to the spells. And the "...unlocks it for use in the D&D BEYOND... toolset..." is vague enough to provide the wiggle room DNDB seems to be using for updating the spells (what, exactly, does "unlocks for use" mean? All features? Some? There are certainly aspects of the book that are not integrated into the toolset, but what IS integrated is not spelled out).
Like I said in the other thread, I have sympathy for the people who are upset, even if I, myself, consider these changes more errata than a version update, and especially if this quoted text doesn't actually exist. If it does, and I'm just not seeing it, then they certainly have less of a leg to stand on, but even still... unless there's a compelling technical reason not to just flag the spells as 2014 before creating the 2024 entries, I think they are unnecessarily pissing people off. And if there IS a technical reason, it would at least serve as a little bit of damage control to actually say that.
For anyone reading from that other thread, this is where my "entitlement" comment stems from.
Shoving and Grappling are not currently handled by the character sheet, but they are becoming sub-items of Unarmed Strike, which is handled by the character sheet. If Shove and Grapple are not included in the line item for Unarmed Strike then DnD Beyond isn't a useful tool for PHB2024, and if they're included in the line item, they're inaccurate for 2014.
And yes, it does suck that I need to take time to copy them over as homebrew spells. It sucks because it's defeating the entire purpose of having a digital compendium of spells.
Theft... Well, kinda yeah. If people bought the books explicitly for integration with DnD Beyond, they were assured it'd function that way in perpetuity, and DnD Beyond no longer provides that functionality, that reads like breach of contract to me. Might not meet any formal definitions but I'd certainly feel like I'd been shafted.
For you and others where that was the only purpose of the purchase, sure. But don't be so presumptuous that that's the only reason anyone ever buys the digital product over a physical one or even in addition to the physical one. You still have access to those books and everything in them, and carrying around a phone, tablet, or even a laptop full of the purchases you've made has benefits well beyond character sheet integration.
And as I pointed out in my comment above, you were NEVER guaranteed anything in perpetuity with the digital product, or any digital product from any company, really.
Why is it that when we purchase a physical game product through an online vender like Exalted Funeral we get the pdf for that product for free? Why is Wizards of the Coast not only so adamant against guaranteeing any digital version of their rules will be maintained for those who have paid for that content but also adamant against providing a pdf for those who have already paid for a book
Other peoples' uses of the items that I purchase are of no concern to me. If I buy a car to drive places, I expect it to be able to drive. It is not fair for Tim to say that my purchase is still valid because he bought it to use the air conditioning, and it still fills that purpose for him.
And yeah, that's why I haven't put a dime into the digital store lol. I'm not buying bad product. There are other, better campaign management tools out there.
I don't understand why the users who are defending WotC, and telling others they're wrong/bad for wanting to continue using old versions of things, care? If it's possible for WotC to have both, why do you care that we want the old versions?
It's almost like 2024 supporters here WANT everyone to play the way 2024 supporters want to (ie. everyone should accept 2024 as better and be happy about it) and ONLY that way.
If we _could_ have both, why _shouldn't_ we have both?
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Apologies if I read the first quoted part as more general than you intended. I read it as "It sucks because it's defeating the entire purpose of [anyone] having a digital compendium of spells."
Yeah if you're planning on switching to 2024 on day dot there's not going to be a problem... But anyone who isn't the most diehard fanboy isn't going to do that because usually you want to read and understand the rules before you switch to them.
I don't know what representative sample your "surprise" is based on, but I'm specifically referring to the spells and items they've updated. I see no reason to stick with the old versions, or for them to double the literal hundreds of entries in the builder and tooltips with a slew of "Legacy" tags for these.
Except they didn't take anything from you, your 2014 books with the 2014 text for every spell and item in them are still there.
If your 2014 books were rendered inaccessible I'd say you have a point, but they haven't.
Time will change their minds (or they'll quit I guess), either way I don't have to do a thing.
Beyond can create a toggle for Legacy. We got a bunch of new toggles for third party content, so it is not like it cannot be done.
For me, I am not even asking for the toggle, I just want access to the old content on the character builder and sheets. The toggle is nice to have for me, but I can deal with a more messy drop down menu.
Beyond is taking away the integration between the 2014 books and the character builder/sheet. What sold a lot of us on Beyond was the convenience it provided so we do not have to manually integrate it ourselves. What kept many of us relatively calm was the precedent that VGTM/MTOF/MP:MOTM set that made old content Legacy but still accessible in the digital tools, and Wizard's/Beyond's insistence that the new books are not errata.
As far as I am concerned, Beyond only confirmed changes on the magic item side will be potions and spell scrolls according to their clarification post. While I know certain spells are changing, I do not know all the spells that are changing, and I am not aware of Beyond making any further clarifications on which spells we need to homebrew if we want to keep the 2014 version.
A lot of us do not have an alternative to walk away to. Going physical is out of the question for many of us who rely on the convenience of digital, and full physical is just an awful experience. Veteran D&D players who grew up with pen and paper might be okay with going full physical, but there is no way I would. Pivoting away to the other three official digital tool sets is not realistic either: Foundry is an automatic no for me since it barely supports 5e right now, and switching over Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds means I am losing access to VGTM and MTOF that I already have on Beyond. And switching systems is completely out of the question.
Check Licenses and Resync Entitlements: < https://www.dndbeyond.com/account/licenses >
Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
Ive seen people compile the spells affected. Its 100 spells out of the 390 from 2014 PHB. Many have such minor changes it wont really affect play with 2014 5e rules.
I addressed this point in a different thread but you may not have seen it - content creators like Joefudge have covered the spell changes in detail already, so that you can find out what you might want to start brewing now.
Again though, I have to question why so many are adamant on staying with 2014 spells across the board when the vast majority of changes are positive ones. Are people really clamoring for 2014 Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Barkskin, Flame Strike, Poison Spray, Ray of Sickness, Mirror Image, Hideous Laughter etc?
My biggest issue with the spells is that they haven't given us a definitive answer as to the fate of the 2014 spells that are not being included in the 2024 PHB in any way, shape, or form. Will those still be available in the character creation options, or in the scroll-over options for spells on our already-created characters (I'm looking at you, Booming Blade)
DDB has not been very transparent as to their intentions on quite a few things, creating a sense of betrayal, and causing many in the community to distrust them and their original claims regarding the 2014 5e content.
I suppose we'll find out on Sept. 3rd, but let it be noted that DDB may have a mass exodus on their hands if the community's fears of betrayal are realized. Not a threat, just speculation based off what has been posted here and in other topics on the forum. I and many others are holding our actions until then.
Ball's in your court, DDB. Just remember actions DO have consequences...
Exactly this. There is no right or wrong way to play D&D. Except of course if people ain't playing it the way they want them to they are faced with a barrage of insults.
Some like to stick with 2014 books only (or less like just the core books), and I while I do not enjoy those types of games, it is their table and they can play however they want.
I plan to use both in tandem, and I let my players decide which version they like best. I want variety and options.
Check Licenses and Resync Entitlements: < https://www.dndbeyond.com/account/licenses >
Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
You can still use your 2014 books. You can also still (legally) play 4e and 3e if you want to. The online tools don't have to support those other ways of playing D&D though, fully or otherwise.
For those who do want to jump ship for Roll20 over this, I support that decision too. They have an official license with WotC so nobody is doing anything wrong by playing there instead of here. All I can say is that for me, DDB is still the most convenient tool around.
The issue is that we paid for the INTEGRATION of the 2014 books and the digital tools. We would have bought just the compendium content if we did not care about the digital tools. And now Beyond is taking away that INTEGRATION. We have been repeatedly told that the new books are new content and are not errata.
For those who can jump ship to Roll20, that is great. For many of us, that is not even remotely realistic. There is NO reasonable alternative, and all options have significant drawbacks. Even if we pivot to another digital platform, we would be losing out on content from VGTM, MTOF, and other Beyond content at the bare minimum, and Foundry's miniscule support for 5e is the worst digital option. Going physical and switching systems are both absolutely nonsense troll suggestions that many people voiced; I would not be on Beyond in the first place if I found physical palatable, and no other system comes even close to the tools and support that D&D has.
Beyond is still the most convenient tool for me right now, but its convenience is quickly going away. I feel trapped with Beyond because anything I decide on, I will be losing something regardless.
And then there is the cost of switching. Not every GM can afford to drop hundreds on the Legendary Bundle like I did, let alone buying digital and physical at the same time. For less well to do GMs, switching is not even an option.
Check Licenses and Resync Entitlements: < https://www.dndbeyond.com/account/licenses >
Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
This is for now, if this the setting of precedent for the future that list will continue to grow. As much as new editions cause issues I would gladly take that over this goat rope everytime a new book comes out, this is going to make it unnecessarily difficult to try new stuff and roll back if you and your table don't like it. It is removing the greatest (to many) thing about D&D and TTRPGS in general you can play it how you want to as long as the people in your game are ok with it. This fundamentally changes the game from that hey let's do this to the equivalent of a wizbro inspector standing over your shoulder telling you how to play and when to buy books.
Yes the hyperbole is intentional.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.