They weren't "forced into the same shape" 🤨 In case you haven't noticed, only level 3 was standardized across classes, they all kept their unique subclass progressions after that; Paladins still get their capstone from their subclass at level 20 for instance.
You're being a bit overly literal here. Clearly the main point of contention is the 3rd level subclass thing. That has much more impact than the later subclass progression.
An easy answer for why a Good character made a deal with a sketchy entity was they needed the power for a good cause and said sketchy entity was the only readily available source. If bandits took your little girl and none of the gods seem to be interested in weighing in but the voice from the forest or cloaked individual who happened to be hanging around the bar or mysterious figure in your dream says they can help you get her back, you might well go for it.
"Mysterious entity making an offer that seems too good to be true, but you take it out of desperation" is a long, long way from "hey Cthulhu, let's make a deal so I can use the powers you give me to be a hero"
Clearly someone never read/watched Spawn or is familiar with Ghost Rider.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
An easy answer for why a Good character made a deal with a sketchy entity was they needed the power for a good cause and said sketchy entity was the only readily available source. If bandits took your little girl and none of the gods seem to be interested in weighing in but the voice from the forest or cloaked individual who happened to be hanging around the bar or mysterious figure in your dream says they can help you get her back, you might well go for it.
As for deliberately seeking them out, there's always the classic "I'm smart enough to make a deal without giving up anything truly crucial" type; yeah, that's generally a sign of a certain degree of hubris, but it doesn't necessarily mean they don't have good intentions initially.
Indeed - and this is quite literally Wyll's backstory in BG3.
You're being a bit overly literal here. Clearly the main point of contention is the 3rd level subclass thing. That has much more impact than the later subclass progression.I dis
That it should be a "point of contention" is what I disagree with, yes. Level 3 subclasses for everyone does not have the outsize impact you think it does, because the classes who had their subclass move got their level 1 and 2 features reworked (added and rearrranged) to compensate for that. It's fine.
And if you don't think it's fine... stick with the 2014 progression, the Pinkertons won't stop you.
I think another side effect of leaving it so open at 1st and 2nd level as it makes dips into Warlock a lot easier from a narrative stand point. You are dabbling or have dabbled, but are not yet truely committed yet. Maybe you stumble upon an ancient tome or an bit of forbidden knowledge, but instead of getting locked into a deal, you just get a little taste. If your character decides to go further down that path, the option is there. Before, you were kind of stuck from a narrative possition from the start.
Edit: It is kind of the same with all classes now since you don't really specialize until 3rd level
An easy answer for why a Good character made a deal with a sketchy entity was they needed the power for a good cause and said sketchy entity was the only readily available source. If bandits took your little girl and none of the gods seem to be interested in weighing in but the voice from the forest or cloaked individual who happened to be hanging around the bar or mysterious figure in your dream says they can help you get her back, you might well go for it.
"Mysterious entity making an offer that seems too good to be true, but you take it out of desperation" is a long, long way from "hey Cthulhu, let's make a deal so I can use the powers you give me to be a hero"
Clearly someone never read/watched Spawn or is familiar with Ghost Rider.
Uhh, clearly... both of those are way more "I'll take this deal out of desperation" than "I wanna be a hero, consequences and morality be damned!"
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Through occult ceremony, you have formed a pact with a mysterious entity to gain magical powers. The entity is a voice in the shadows—its identity unclear—but its boon to you is concrete: the ability to cast spells. See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells, which appear in the Warlock spell list later in the class’s description.
The entity is a voice in the shadows—its identity unclear
That's certainly one option, but it's not the only one
It's also just flavor text, not a hard and fast rule
In fact as a DM, I'd say the question of whether the warlock knows who their patron is, and when they discover that information, should have absolutely nothing to do with when you pick your subclass. If it makes sense to have it be a mystery, that mystery doesn't need to be resolved when you hit level 3
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
As for the magic I’ve been using a simple work around for years - they were offered a “taste” at L1 and 2 and stuck with it to L3 when they signed the pact. Those that tried the “taste” and rejected the pact were left with the magic initiate (warlock) feat. And yes I have a couple of “ranged” rangers that use Eldritch blast stead of arrows for their ranged attacks.
I think the ambiguity is there as something for tables to figure out/change as they desire. However the way I see it is that warlocks are modified by their patron and the first two levels are sort of a generic taster/preparation that a patron grants to lure their servant further into service. After being prepared the servant is then more capable of absorbing more specific knowledge and modifications from their patron master and that is where the differences appear (level 3).
Are new players really just jumping into multiclassing? I played and ran a 5e campaign for years before I went near it.
Some people will jump on youtube, forums or other websites and look-up power builds or optimized builds. There are a lot of videos, blogs and posts all about various ones, there will always be people trying to use em in their first D&D campaigns, even if they don't understand exactly how they are meant to function or if they are even build legal.
I think many people look at warlock in a way that is too literal.
So what most people think is you summon some demon, elder evil, whatever, and that entity manifests and they trade soul for power.
I don't think of it that way in general. Instead imagine using a Ouija board, or you read a book and paint some lines in holy oil, or whatever, and some entity becomes aware of you. They favor you. Maybe you ask the ouija board how to talk to your dead mother, or when you burn the holy oil you place a wish for your bully to die. Whatever it is, you have opened your soul up to the entity that has been summoned. A fey takes your asking for help and an invitation for them to have claim on part of your soul. Basically you have done something to open yourself up to this entity giving you a fraction of a splinter of their power. They don't care about you. You are not on their radar. They have hundreds of these deals.
Just by using your new powers, you are exercising that sliver of power they let you borrow. You grow it. The longer you last, the more it grows (this is what leveling up is), and once it has grown to a significant point, they might start caring about you. Early on (lets say level 3), they send their emissary to inform you of the deal you made oh so long ago without really knowing it. Once you have reached level 10 or so, you are now so well known to that entity that they will directly interact with you from time to time. And when you are dead, and your soul awaits judgement in the City of the Dead on the Fugue Plane, at some point before you are judged, that sliver, that has grown however much, will be extracted from you and returned to the entity, giving it the amassed power you gained by borrowing it.
I don't think the pacts are generally intentional, deliberate, or even truly consented on. I think more often than not, you did something that allowed it to happen unknowingly to yourself, and eventually, if you become a big enough asset, you will unlock the mysteries of who your patron are.
I think people too often start with the ending of a warlock, and not the beginning. It should be a story of growth, exploration, and mystery.
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You're being a bit overly literal here. Clearly the main point of contention is the 3rd level subclass thing. That has much more impact than the later subclass progression.
Clearly someone never read/watched Spawn or is familiar with Ghost Rider.
Indeed - and this is quite literally Wyll's backstory in BG3.
That it should be a "point of contention" is what I disagree with, yes. Level 3 subclasses for everyone does not have the outsize impact you think it does, because the classes who had their subclass move got their level 1 and 2 features reworked (added and rearrranged) to compensate for that. It's fine.
And if you don't think it's fine... stick with the 2014 progression, the Pinkertons won't stop you.
For me, the Patron gives the Warlock their power from first level, but these powers are pretty generic until third level.
That’s similar to clerics.
I think another side effect of leaving it so open at 1st and 2nd level as it makes dips into Warlock a lot easier from a narrative stand point. You are dabbling or have dabbled, but are not yet truely committed yet. Maybe you stumble upon an ancient tome or an bit of forbidden knowledge, but instead of getting locked into a deal, you just get a little taste. If your character decides to go further down that path, the option is there. Before, you were kind of stuck from a narrative possition from the start.
Edit: It is kind of the same with all classes now since you don't really specialize until 3rd level
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Uhh, clearly... both of those are way more "I'll take this deal out of desperation" than "I wanna be a hero, consequences and morality be damned!"
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
As long as WotC continues to behave, of course.
Level 1: Pact Magic
Through occult ceremony, you have formed a pact with a mysterious entity to gain magical powers. The entity is a voice in the shadows—its identity unclear—but its boon to you is concrete: the ability to cast spells. See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells, which appear in the Warlock spell list later in the class’s description.
That's certainly one option, but it's not the only one
It's also just flavor text, not a hard and fast rule
In fact as a DM, I'd say the question of whether the warlock knows who their patron is, and when they discover that information, should have absolutely nothing to do with when you pick your subclass. If it makes sense to have it be a mystery, that mystery doesn't need to be resolved when you hit level 3
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I'm just not sure I understand what problem "all subclasses now start at 3" was designed to solve.
(Too) Easy dips is one that's been brought up from time to time.
It reduces the load on new players; they can take any class and not have to immediately pick a subclass
As for the magic I’ve been using a simple work around for years - they were offered a “taste” at L1 and 2 and stuck with it to L3 when they signed the pact. Those that tried the “taste” and rejected the pact were left with the magic initiate (warlock) feat. And yes I have a couple of “ranged” rangers that use Eldritch blast stead of arrows for their ranged attacks.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
That's actually pretty legit. I get that.
1) Analysis paralysis for new players
2) Overly dippable subclasses as design conundrum
I think the ambiguity is there as something for tables to figure out/change as they desire. However the way I see it is that warlocks are modified by their patron and the first two levels are sort of a generic taster/preparation that a patron grants to lure their servant further into service. After being prepared the servant is then more capable of absorbing more specific knowledge and modifications from their patron master and that is where the differences appear (level 3).
Are new players really just jumping into multiclassing? I played and ran a 5e campaign for years before I went near it.
Say you play a wizard. Now you pick your class, species, background, and spells.
Before, you also had to pick from a long list of subclasses before you knew how the base class worked to evaluate them.
Some people will jump on youtube, forums or other websites and look-up power builds or optimized builds. There are a lot of videos, blogs and posts all about various ones, there will always be people trying to use em in their first D&D campaigns, even if they don't understand exactly how they are meant to function or if they are even build legal.
I think many people look at warlock in a way that is too literal.
So what most people think is you summon some demon, elder evil, whatever, and that entity manifests and they trade soul for power.
I don't think of it that way in general. Instead imagine using a Ouija board, or you read a book and paint some lines in holy oil, or whatever, and some entity becomes aware of you. They favor you. Maybe you ask the ouija board how to talk to your dead mother, or when you burn the holy oil you place a wish for your bully to die. Whatever it is, you have opened your soul up to the entity that has been summoned. A fey takes your asking for help and an invitation for them to have claim on part of your soul. Basically you have done something to open yourself up to this entity giving you a fraction of a splinter of their power. They don't care about you. You are not on their radar. They have hundreds of these deals.
Just by using your new powers, you are exercising that sliver of power they let you borrow. You grow it. The longer you last, the more it grows (this is what leveling up is), and once it has grown to a significant point, they might start caring about you. Early on (lets say level 3), they send their emissary to inform you of the deal you made oh so long ago without really knowing it. Once you have reached level 10 or so, you are now so well known to that entity that they will directly interact with you from time to time. And when you are dead, and your soul awaits judgement in the City of the Dead on the Fugue Plane, at some point before you are judged, that sliver, that has grown however much, will be extracted from you and returned to the entity, giving it the amassed power you gained by borrowing it.
I don't think the pacts are generally intentional, deliberate, or even truly consented on. I think more often than not, you did something that allowed it to happen unknowingly to yourself, and eventually, if you become a big enough asset, you will unlock the mysteries of who your patron are.
I think people too often start with the ending of a warlock, and not the beginning. It should be a story of growth, exploration, and mystery.