But the "Terms of Service" say nothing about suggestions said in the forum, for example ideas about a future module or the plot of a new novel. Technically it is not "user content", is it?
* Cobra from the cartoon shows was too ridiculous for the current standars. Real groups with less money could cause more destruction and suffering.
GIJoe is about good guys defendin the law&order and DS is about fighting against the tirany and fighting to recover the Nature damaged by the defiler magic.
And DS was too limited to the metaplot. After all the sorcerer-kings were defeated, the region of Tyr was too (relatively) small to be explored by epic-level PCs.
But the "Terms of Service" say nothing about suggestions said in the forum, for example ideas about a future module or the plot of a new novel. Technically it is not "user content", is it?
Yes, it's user content; the list in section 7.1 is examples, not exhaustive. And no, those rules aren't draconian, they're pretty normal. If you have ideas that you believe are of special value... don't publish them on any public forum.
Should GIJoe vs Cobra be cancelled because terrorism causes a lot of suffering in the real life?
It's worth noting that the last G.I. Joe series ended after a single season in 2011. And the toys in that line being sold are mostly retro figures or expensive figures for collectors. AND the last TV show (G.I Joe: Renegades) presented Cobra as an evil corporation, Cobra Pharmaceuticals, recasting them from being a global terror organization).
So while not "cancelled" it does seem like people have decided international terrorism just isn't a good subject for a kids' cartoon.
And now you know...
The last G.I. Joe film was released in 2021, and they are, as of April 2024, reportedly working on a new crossover with the Transformer franchise, they are still making movies for the franchise.
And all three G.I. Joe films have been financial disappointments that have been aimed more at nostalgic GenX and Millennials than kids with PG-13 live action films.
And since 2009 there have been 3 G.I. Joe films. Compare that with the six live-action Transformers films and one cartoon film in over that same duration. It's not really a relevant franchise anymore.
I am not going to earn everway with my crazy ideas about RPGs but if WotC borrows some idea by me, then at least I will can to let some legacy to be remembered by the future generations of players.
And we need clarity about the reason because something was allowed in the past but now it is a new taboo. Who has said this or that now is not allowed any more and why? We need to know if the choice was after a long and quiet reflection, or it was asked by an outer group.
The origin of the muls could be retconnected and the players could understand the reason. Should we worry?
Should we "cancel" stories in the media about school bulling or mobbing because there are people from the real life suffering it in these days?
If a threat causes somebody felt unconfortable then I could understand out of respect for the sensitivities of them, certain topics are not discussed any more. The part I don't understand is the reason for the changes of criteria when before in the past it could be told. Is it only a lower level of tolerance now?
OK, DS is not a family-friendly franchise, but...in Fortnite there are skins of characters from movies for mature audiences. If D&DB sold licenced virtual miniatures from movies for adults (action or horror), why not miniatures with a tribal/Hyrborian punk fashion style? Let's remember the number of little children playing toys of monsters from classic horror movies of the white&black age. Even once there were action figures of Aliens in the toy shops.
Why not to sell the sorcerer-kings of Athas in D&DB? Virtual miniatures with different poses and the monster stats together.
Or a "family-friendly" title about traders of the dunes, where the trader was something like a class for sidekicks, or like a background with levels, an evolution of the survivor classes from Van Ritchen's Guide 5e.
In 5e we have got evil humanoids doing really horrible things, for example the gnolls. The lore of the region of Tyr could be rewritten omitting that type of details. It could be still present, but we wouldn't say any word. The sorcerer-kings did horrible things during the cleasing wars, but also Darth Vader during the purge against the jedis and our children still can watch Star Wars cartoons.
Couldn't we talk about this like reasonable and civilized adults?
Once again, it’s not that the concept is being cancelled across all media, it’s that WotC is aiming for the “family-friendly heroic adventure story” vibe with their main products, and so “gritty dystopian wasteland where all kinds of awful social stuff is just the way things are” is simply not a compatible theme. And to address the most obvious “what about” point, Ravenloft is gothic horror where the point is to defeat and/or escape from the big villain who in turn is ultimately imprisoned for all eternity. The entire premise of the setting is that those bad guys are being constantly punished and are unable to get at new victims on any kind of meaningful scale, not that the whole world got so screwed up that the ruthless types are the ones who came out on top. Instances of visceral horror are one thing, since that’s often the kind of thing heroes are drawn into conflict against, but the existential horror of “all these bad things are the status quo of an entire setting” aren’t compatible with the themes WotC is clearly aiming for.
The cartoon "Pirates of the dark Waters" may be an example of how a franchise with a "Hirborean punk" artistic style can be "child-friendly". Thundarr the barbarian is cartoon show for children in a post-apocalypitic setting. "Cadillas and dinosaurs" also was a postapocaliptic cartoon.
I propose another solution: Time-travelers in Athas changed the past and now the seven state-cities of the region of Tyr are free and our loved Athasian heroes earned their happy end. But the sorcerer-kings haven't said their last word. They were chosen by a higher power and now they have reincarnated (maybe into some different specie) in a different wildspace that is going to suffer a cataclysm by divine punishment (and a future failing planar invasion from biopunk-version of Omega World). This new life is a poisonous gift, because they are the new (evil) lords but their thrones are a golden cage. This "new Athas" can get your favorite elements from the original edition, but also from later ones, for example more PC species, because this new Athas didn't suffer the cleasing war.
It's hard to reconcile "this thing was so awesome" with "this thing is trauma-inducing." I'd go so far as to say those two statements are mutually exclusive.
If it ever gets revamped for 5E (or a future edition) it will still be plenty awesome without the gross, toxic bits.
Both of those are purely subjective. I really don't like the idea of DS and the very way people are "praising" it is only further convincing me that I wouldn't enjoy it. It's not trauma-inducing (for me), Jurassic Park was more trauma-inducing for me. It just sounds to edgy and I play D&D to escape reality and it's dreariness.
That's valid. It's not everyone's cup of tea, and it doesn't have to be. But as someone who would like to see it adapted for 5E, I'm 100% good with leaving out the gross, toxic parts that would make the setting unwelcoming to people who otherwise would like to play D&D, but in a post-apocalyptic desert where nobody has swords or water. I don't want to drive away people who are good with the grittier, survival-themed tone but whose play experience would be ruined by the unnecessary inclusion of topics like slavery and genocide. There are elements - especially the gross, toxic ones - that are edgy and that edginess sometimes gets confused for making it mature when it really, really doesn't.
Leaving out all those parts makes it not be Dark Sun anymore. All of those elements are what made the setting what it is. That's like saying you can have Ravenloft without Strahd. It makes no sense. I get it why they can't or won't bring Dark Sun back. It was actually one of my favorite settings when it came out back then because it was totally different from the "sword and sorcery, I want to be the hero who saves the day, midieval fantasy trope" that is prevalent in just about every RPG. But like I said, I know it won't come back because it's not a "politically correct" setting. And if they did try to bring it back without everything that made it Dark Sun, I'd rather they not do it at all.
All you need for Dark Sun is "it's D&D in a post-apocalyptic desert and nobody has swords or water." EIther it matures with us and loses the toxic edgelord stuff or it doesn't and it gets consigned to history.
It's hard to reconcile "this thing was so awesome" with "this thing is trauma-inducing." I'd go so far as to say those two statements are mutually exclusive.
If it ever gets revamped for 5E (or a future edition) it will still be plenty awesome without the gross, toxic bits.
Both of those are purely subjective. I really don't like the idea of DS and the very way people are "praising" it is only further convincing me that I wouldn't enjoy it. It's not trauma-inducing (for me), Jurassic Park was more trauma-inducing for me. It just sounds to edgy and I play D&D to escape reality and it's dreariness.
That's valid. It's not everyone's cup of tea, and it doesn't have to be. But as someone who would like to see it adapted for 5E, I'm 100% good with leaving out the gross, toxic parts that would make the setting unwelcoming to people who otherwise would like to play D&D, but in a post-apocalyptic desert where nobody has swords or water. I don't want to drive away people who are good with the grittier, survival-themed tone but whose play experience would be ruined by the unnecessary inclusion of topics like slavery and genocide. There are elements - especially the gross, toxic ones - that are edgy and that edginess sometimes gets confused for making it mature when it really, really doesn't.
Leaving out all those parts makes it not be Dark Sun anymore. All of those elements are what made the setting what it is. That's like saying you can have Ravenloft without Strahd. It makes no sense. I get it why they can't or won't bring Dark Sun back. It was actually one of my favorite settings when it came out back then because it was totally different from the "sword and sorcery, I want to be the hero who saves the day, midieval fantasy trope" that is prevalent in just about every RPG. But like I said, I know it won't come back because it's not a "politically correct" setting. And if they did try to bring it back without everything that made it Dark Sun, I'd rather they not do it at all.
It’s not about being PC, it’s about keeping core D&D products in a general “family friendly” area. PC was the Hadozee errata, where you’ll note they did just retcon out the segment they didn’t want. With Dark Sun it’s about the basic genre of existential horror that is “bleak post-apocalyptic setting where every faction is dark grey at best and all kinds of major irl taboos are facts of life”, which cannot be reconciled with “family friendly” the way something like “gothic horror pocket dimension with an antagonist who can never truly be destroyed” can.
All you need for Dark Sun is "it's D&D in a post-apocalyptic desert and nobody has swords or water." EIther it matures with us and loses the toxic edgelord stuff or it doesn't and it gets consigned to history.
Yeah this tbh. I'm currently playing in my DM's homebrew post apoc desert survival setting, and I love it.
I feel some kind of official post apoc survival setting would work fine with DnD. It's not like the entire concept is somehow bad. Hell it wouldn't even need to be a desert to work. A frozen wasteland, or a waterworld both work fine.
It's hard to reconcile "this thing was so awesome" with "this thing is trauma-inducing." I'd go so far as to say those two statements are mutually exclusive.
If it ever gets revamped for 5E (or a future edition) it will still be plenty awesome without the gross, toxic bits.
Both of those are purely subjective. I really don't like the idea of DS and the very way people are "praising" it is only further convincing me that I wouldn't enjoy it. It's not trauma-inducing (for me), Jurassic Park was more trauma-inducing for me. It just sounds to edgy and I play D&D to escape reality and it's dreariness.
That's valid. It's not everyone's cup of tea, and it doesn't have to be. But as someone who would like to see it adapted for 5E, I'm 100% good with leaving out the gross, toxic parts that would make the setting unwelcoming to people who otherwise would like to play D&D, but in a post-apocalyptic desert where nobody has swords or water. I don't want to drive away people who are good with the grittier, survival-themed tone but whose play experience would be ruined by the unnecessary inclusion of topics like slavery and genocide. There are elements - especially the gross, toxic ones - that are edgy and that edginess sometimes gets confused for making it mature when it really, really doesn't.
Leaving out all those parts makes it not be Dark Sun anymore. All of those elements are what made the setting what it is. That's like saying you can have Ravenloft without Strahd. It makes no sense. I get it why they can't or won't bring Dark Sun back. It was actually one of my favorite settings when it came out back then because it was totally different from the "sword and sorcery, I want to be the hero who saves the day, midieval fantasy trope" that is prevalent in just about every RPG. But like I said, I know it won't come back because it's not a "politically correct" setting. And if they did try to bring it back without everything that made it Dark Sun, I'd rather they not do it at all.
It’s not about being PC, it’s about keeping core D&D products in a general “family friendly” area. PC was the Hadozee errata, where you’ll note they did just retcon out the segment they didn’t want. With Dark Sun it’s about the basic genre of existential horror that is “bleak post-apocalyptic setting where every faction is dark grey at best and all kinds of major irl taboos are facts of life”, which cannot be reconciled with “family friendly” the way something like “gothic horror pocket dimension with an antagonist who can never truly be destroyed” can.
PC, family friendly. Tomato, tomatoe. Regardless, both of our points are the same. Dark Sun is problematic to WOTC and it won't come back. Like I said in my post, if it did come back, but without the "bad stuff", then it's not Dark Sun anymore. Hence me using Strahd as an example for Ravenloft. Strahd is what makes Ravenloft ever since the original module came out back in the late 80's before it was a campaign setting. You can't have one without the other is the point I was trying to make. And if they made Dark Sun without the problematic parts, then it's just "generic Mad Max-like desert survival MMO". Which isn't entirely a bad thing. But it isn't Dark Sun anymore.
All you need for Dark Sun is "it's D&D in a post-apocalyptic desert and nobody has swords or water."
Well, that depends heavily on who you are trying to appeal to -- you can certainly set an adventure book in a post-apocalyptic desert, but would that satisfy Dark Sun fans? And if not, why not set it in Hazlan or the Anauroch?
More examples of animation for children in a post-apocaliptic setting: Highlander, Time Adventure, Kipo and the age of the Wonderbeasts, Samurai Jack, Visionaries (by Hasbro), Dragon Flyz.
WotC can create from zero a new "Hyborian-punk" setting and playing with the ambiguity. This should allow more "space" to add more places. Maybe this could appear before like a new tribal-punk+heavy metal themed plane for Magic: the Gathering.
And the fate of the sorcerer-kings is this: They are abducted by an unknown power, and sent to other world that is used like a "chess board" by different factions. These supreme powers aren't like the dark powers of Ravenloft because the goal is the "domain lords" to fight each other, maybe because these strange powers would rather "proxy wars" before direct confroctations with a mutual assured destruction. The sorcerer-king distrust each other but allied together and they conquer a region, new Tyr, and this is also afected and tainted by the defiler magic.
And also we need more details about "the land within the wind" because this place could be perfect for tribes of fugitive slaves.
Slavery could be changed into other way. For example there is a disease like the greyscale from "Game of Thrones". The sorcerer-kings know the way to heal it, but the "medical treatment" is expensive. Then there isn't any slave (but convicts in forced works) technically but really everybody has to work to pay the medicine.
Other point to be redesigned is the economy. Somebody with enough experience in relatively realistic survival and city-builders and civilitation simulations could realises the population from state-cities need a lot of water and food, and a lot of space for farmlands. And new generation of players wanted the main cities from fantasy cities to be so big like capitals from the modern age in the real life, or urban sandboxes from videogames like Grand Thief Auto saga. Maybe this is possible thanks no-magic lifeshaping technology, because sorcerer-kings worried too much to be kept, because this would be too necessary in the future.
I think the problem is that the people that want DS, want it with all the ugly bits. I don't think anyone is arguing that "official post-apocalyptic survival DnD" is impossible, or even some DS-adjacent setting is impossible, just that it wouldn't be what the OP and others were asking for.
You're missing the point; it's not that post-apocalypse in general is a non-started for D&D, it's that much of the identity of Dark Sun is built around transgressive themes being normalized in-setting; the fact that about half the classes aren't compatible with the "magic kills the land and there are no gods" premise and the entirely separate can of worms that would be integrating psionics as a discrete system much further than they already have don't help either.
As multiple people have said, the issue with completely retooling it is that you'll get all the people most fervently clamoring to get Dark Sun back complaining that the setting has been ruined, and once you cut through all the "this proves WotC is pushing X agenda that is a Bad Thing because I don't agree with it" chaff, the remainder will have a point that it's not the product they were asking for. It would be better to just start from the ground up and go for something that approaches realism and nuance instead of being a poster child for 90's edge- right down to the part where, cult following aside, it struggled to achieve staying power because after the novelty wears off it's too depressing to be engaging.
I propose another solution: Time-travelers in Athas changed the past and now the seven state-cities of the region of Tyr are free and our loved Athasian heroes earned their happy end. But the sorcerer-kings haven't said their last word. They were chosen by a higher power and now they have reincarnated (maybe into some different specie) in a different wildspace that is going to suffer a cataclysm by divine punishment (and a future failing planar invasion from biopunk-version of Omega World). This new life is a poisonous gift, because they are the new (evil) lords but their thrones are a golden cage. This "new Athas" can get your favorite elements from the original edition, but also from later ones, for example more PC species, because this new Athas didn't suffer the cleasing war.
Except that's not how WotC would update it. They're not going to devote a page or two explaining how the setting changed or this extensive backstory.
They're just going to do what they did with Ravenloft and fully reboot the setting and present the updated world redesigned by people who never read the original books and are given carte blanche to redesign anything and everything.
The hook of Dark Sun is practically "D&D for people who hate everything about D&D except the rules." It's D&D where nothing is familiar and everything you know is different. And, in 4e, it was shifted to "D&D where the Primordials won the Dawn War and the gods died."
It's the setting where you enter a primordial jungle and a bunch of halflings emerge and the players go "... what does that mean?!" They have no idea how to react. Which is cool. But is also hard because character concepts don't work and players need to learn something about the world before making characters.
Most of the problems can be tweaked. Spells that make food and water just cease to work. (Ditto dimensional travel.) Clerics draw their power from the Primordials and not the gods and have an elemental themed bonus feature. Alternate tracking subsystems can be added for water and food. Weapon breakage rules could be added for bone and obsidian weapons.
The problem is everything else that makes up the world. For example, halflings. Which are pretty cool. Cannibal tribes that make the few jungles unhospitable. BUT it invokes stereotypes of Pygmies. So it's easier to just make the halflings like humans, which makes them less scary and less unfamiliar. Meanwhile, the Sorcerer Kings can't really have slaves. So they just become evil emperors ruling over subjects. (And should probably just be called Sorcerer Emperors or Sorcerer Overlords to de-emphasize the gendered term "king.") Suddenly, the cities seem less bad and the jungles seem less bad. The world feels less grimdark and bleak.
Bit by bit, you tweak the world and it just becomes less scary and oppressive. And less Dark Sun. And more just D&D on Arrakis without the sand worms.
At which point... why bother? It's shifted so much from the source material, it's basically just a new setting. You might as well have done another Magic the Gather book set on Amonkhet or Gobakhan for all the setting resembles Dark Sun.
There’s also the part where I’m not sure they’d want to take the time to make the whole “no iron” thing viable- in 10 years I don’t think we’ve seen a single official attempt to introduce an optional overhaul to the basic units of weapon combat. Most likely because that would be a lot of work to make somewhat viable but probably wouldn’t be much of a draw to buyers. Adding new player options is a lot more attractive than making existing systems more complex and less favorable to the player.
We shouldn't ban the spells to create food and water. My suggestion is there are monsters created by sorcerer-kings what can smell somebody casting those spells. You allow it, but you add a risk when these were used. Or maybe there is some risk if you cast it in a zone tainted by the defiler magic. Maybe you can use that water for a bath, but if you drink it then it would be like playing a Russian roulette.
Even if WotC dared to update the setting there is a serious risk of wrath by old players telling "this isn't my DS".
To publish a spiritual succesor recycling some elements has got some risks. Maybe they should try something style backdoor episode.
I suggest the idea of a new setting where "clones" of famous heroes and villains are created and placed into domains within a demiplane used as a "chess board" and gladiator arena with mass battles. It is like a crazy test to discover how somebody learns to be a better leader and strategist. Mainly the most of time the lords are "farming" and getting ready for any possible future war, but this is now wanted because the winner could be too weak to face a third faction. Then this could recover characters from forgotten settings, for example Jackandor, but allowing enough freedom to add new elements. One of the "chosen ones" is a lord Soth who didn't fall into the "dark side", really he is a clone with a rewritten memory, and then he hasn't got the same bad karma than the original. Or a female version of Tas the kender faces Tas the vampire kender. And characters from other franchises could appear as "guest artists". Then one of the domains would be a "bioma" imitating the region of Tyr.
The hook of Dark Sun is practically "D&D for people who hate everything about D&D except the rules." It's D&D where nothing is familiar and everything you know is different. And, in 4e, it was shifted to "D&D where the Primordials won the Dawn War and the gods died."
It's the setting where you enter a primordial jungle and a bunch of halflings emerge and the players go "... what does that mean?!" They have no idea how to react. Which is cool. But is also hard because character concepts don't work and players need to learn something about the world before making characters.
Most of the problems can be tweaked. Spells that make food and water just cease to work. (Ditto dimensional travel.) Clerics draw their power from the Primordials and not the gods and have an elemental themed bonus feature. Alternate tracking subsystems can be added for water and food. Weapon breakage rules could be added for bone and obsidian weapons.
The problem is everything else that makes up the world. For example, halflings. Which are pretty cool. Cannibal tribes that make the few jungles unhospitable. BUT it invokes stereotypes of Pygmies. So it's easier to just make the halflings like humans, which makes them less scary and less unfamiliar. Meanwhile, the Sorcerer Kings can't really have slaves. So they just become evil emperors ruling over subjects. (And should probably just be called Sorcerer Emperors or Sorcerer Overlords to de-emphasize the gendered term "king.") Suddenly, the cities seem less bad and the jungles seem less bad. The world feels less grimdark and bleak.
Bit by bit, you tweak the world and it just becomes less scary and oppressive. And less Dark Sun. And more just D&D on Arrakis without the sand worms.
At which point... why bother? It's shifted so much from the source material, it's basically just a new setting. You might as well have done another Magic the Gather book set on Amonkhet or Gobakhan for all the setting resembles Dark Sun.
You make a good point about where does Dark Sun stop being Dark Sun? I think the line will be in a different place for every person, so there's no version of it where they can change something and keep everyone happy.
As I think about it, I've started a number of Dark Sun campaigns over the years in every edition where it's been published. But every time, it really fails to be Dark Sun. We get tired of tracking water and worrying about broken swords and it basically turns into D&D in the desert. I've never been able to really pull it off and keep the feel of it for a whole campaign. I think I just kind of like the idea of Dark Sun more than I actually like playing that way. (Not trying to say my experience is universal, by any means.) It sounds so cool, but its just so much bookkeeping. Though maybe tracking here instead of pencil-and-paper would help with that.
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But the "Terms of Service" say nothing about suggestions said in the forum, for example ideas about a future module or the plot of a new novel. Technically it is not "user content", is it?
* Cobra from the cartoon shows was too ridiculous for the current standars. Real groups with less money could cause more destruction and suffering.
GIJoe is about good guys defendin the law&order and DS is about fighting against the tirany and fighting to recover the Nature damaged by the defiler magic.
And DS was too limited to the metaplot. After all the sorcerer-kings were defeated, the region of Tyr was too (relatively) small to be explored by epic-level PCs.
Yes, it's user content; the list in section 7.1 is examples, not exhaustive. And no, those rules aren't draconian, they're pretty normal. If you have ideas that you believe are of special value... don't publish them on any public forum.
And all three G.I. Joe films have been financial disappointments that have been aimed more at nostalgic GenX and Millennials than kids with PG-13 live action films.
And since 2009 there have been 3 G.I. Joe films. Compare that with the six live-action Transformers films and one cartoon film in over that same duration. It's not really a relevant franchise anymore.
But this might just be a little off topic...
I am not going to earn everway with my crazy ideas about RPGs but if WotC borrows some idea by me, then at least I will can to let some legacy to be remembered by the future generations of players.
And we need clarity about the reason because something was allowed in the past but now it is a new taboo. Who has said this or that now is not allowed any more and why? We need to know if the choice was after a long and quiet reflection, or it was asked by an outer group.
The origin of the muls could be retconnected and the players could understand the reason. Should we worry?
Should we "cancel" stories in the media about school bulling or mobbing because there are people from the real life suffering it in these days?
If a threat causes somebody felt unconfortable then I could understand out of respect for the sensitivities of them, certain topics are not discussed any more. The part I don't understand is the reason for the changes of criteria when before in the past it could be told. Is it only a lower level of tolerance now?
OK, DS is not a family-friendly franchise, but...in Fortnite there are skins of characters from movies for mature audiences. If D&DB sold licenced virtual miniatures from movies for adults (action or horror), why not miniatures with a tribal/Hyrborian punk fashion style? Let's remember the number of little children playing toys of monsters from classic horror movies of the white&black age. Even once there were action figures of Aliens in the toy shops.
Why not to sell the sorcerer-kings of Athas in D&DB? Virtual miniatures with different poses and the monster stats together.
Or a "family-friendly" title about traders of the dunes, where the trader was something like a class for sidekicks, or like a background with levels, an evolution of the survivor classes from Van Ritchen's Guide 5e.
In 5e we have got evil humanoids doing really horrible things, for example the gnolls. The lore of the region of Tyr could be rewritten omitting that type of details. It could be still present, but we wouldn't say any word. The sorcerer-kings did horrible things during the cleasing wars, but also Darth Vader during the purge against the jedis and our children still can watch Star Wars cartoons.
Couldn't we talk about this like reasonable and civilized adults?
Once again, it’s not that the concept is being cancelled across all media, it’s that WotC is aiming for the “family-friendly heroic adventure story” vibe with their main products, and so “gritty dystopian wasteland where all kinds of awful social stuff is just the way things are” is simply not a compatible theme. And to address the most obvious “what about” point, Ravenloft is gothic horror where the point is to defeat and/or escape from the big villain who in turn is ultimately imprisoned for all eternity. The entire premise of the setting is that those bad guys are being constantly punished and are unable to get at new victims on any kind of meaningful scale, not that the whole world got so screwed up that the ruthless types are the ones who came out on top. Instances of visceral horror are one thing, since that’s often the kind of thing heroes are drawn into conflict against, but the existential horror of “all these bad things are the status quo of an entire setting” aren’t compatible with the themes WotC is clearly aiming for.
The cartoon "Pirates of the dark Waters" may be an example of how a franchise with a "Hirborean punk" artistic style can be "child-friendly". Thundarr the barbarian is cartoon show for children in a post-apocalypitic setting. "Cadillas and dinosaurs" also was a postapocaliptic cartoon.
I propose another solution: Time-travelers in Athas changed the past and now the seven state-cities of the region of Tyr are free and our loved Athasian heroes earned their happy end. But the sorcerer-kings haven't said their last word. They were chosen by a higher power and now they have reincarnated (maybe into some different specie) in a different wildspace that is going to suffer a cataclysm by divine punishment (and a future failing planar invasion from biopunk-version of Omega World). This new life is a poisonous gift, because they are the new (evil) lords but their thrones are a golden cage. This "new Athas" can get your favorite elements from the original edition, but also from later ones, for example more PC species, because this new Athas didn't suffer the cleasing war.
Leaving out all those parts makes it not be Dark Sun anymore. All of those elements are what made the setting what it is. That's like saying you can have Ravenloft without Strahd. It makes no sense. I get it why they can't or won't bring Dark Sun back. It was actually one of my favorite settings when it came out back then because it was totally different from the "sword and sorcery, I want to be the hero who saves the day, midieval fantasy trope" that is prevalent in just about every RPG. But like I said, I know it won't come back because it's not a "politically correct" setting. And if they did try to bring it back without everything that made it Dark Sun, I'd rather they not do it at all.
All you need for Dark Sun is "it's D&D in a post-apocalyptic desert and nobody has swords or water." EIther it matures with us and loses the toxic edgelord stuff or it doesn't and it gets consigned to history.
It’s not about being PC, it’s about keeping core D&D products in a general “family friendly” area. PC was the Hadozee errata, where you’ll note they did just retcon out the segment they didn’t want. With Dark Sun it’s about the basic genre of existential horror that is “bleak post-apocalyptic setting where every faction is dark grey at best and all kinds of major irl taboos are facts of life”, which cannot be reconciled with “family friendly” the way something like “gothic horror pocket dimension with an antagonist who can never truly be destroyed” can.
Yeah this tbh. I'm currently playing in my DM's homebrew post apoc desert survival setting, and I love it.
I feel some kind of official post apoc survival setting would work fine with DnD. It's not like the entire concept is somehow bad. Hell it wouldn't even need to be a desert to work. A frozen wasteland, or a waterworld both work fine.
PC, family friendly. Tomato, tomatoe. Regardless, both of our points are the same. Dark Sun is problematic to WOTC and it won't come back. Like I said in my post, if it did come back, but without the "bad stuff", then it's not Dark Sun anymore. Hence me using Strahd as an example for Ravenloft. Strahd is what makes Ravenloft ever since the original module came out back in the late 80's before it was a campaign setting. You can't have one without the other is the point I was trying to make. And if they made Dark Sun without the problematic parts, then it's just "generic Mad Max-like desert survival MMO". Which isn't entirely a bad thing. But it isn't Dark Sun anymore.
Well, that depends heavily on who you are trying to appeal to -- you can certainly set an adventure book in a post-apocalyptic desert, but would that satisfy Dark Sun fans? And if not, why not set it in Hazlan or the Anauroch?
More examples of animation for children in a post-apocaliptic setting: Highlander, Time Adventure, Kipo and the age of the Wonderbeasts, Samurai Jack, Visionaries (by Hasbro), Dragon Flyz.
WotC can create from zero a new "Hyborian-punk" setting and playing with the ambiguity. This should allow more "space" to add more places. Maybe this could appear before like a new tribal-punk+heavy metal themed plane for Magic: the Gathering.
And the fate of the sorcerer-kings is this: They are abducted by an unknown power, and sent to other world that is used like a "chess board" by different factions. These supreme powers aren't like the dark powers of Ravenloft because the goal is the "domain lords" to fight each other, maybe because these strange powers would rather "proxy wars" before direct confroctations with a mutual assured destruction. The sorcerer-king distrust each other but allied together and they conquer a region, new Tyr, and this is also afected and tainted by the defiler magic.
And also we need more details about "the land within the wind" because this place could be perfect for tribes of fugitive slaves.
Slavery could be changed into other way. For example there is a disease like the greyscale from "Game of Thrones". The sorcerer-kings know the way to heal it, but the "medical treatment" is expensive. Then there isn't any slave (but convicts in forced works) technically but really everybody has to work to pay the medicine.
Other point to be redesigned is the economy. Somebody with enough experience in relatively realistic survival and city-builders and civilitation simulations could realises the population from state-cities need a lot of water and food, and a lot of space for farmlands. And new generation of players wanted the main cities from fantasy cities to be so big like capitals from the modern age in the real life, or urban sandboxes from videogames like Grand Thief Auto saga. Maybe this is possible thanks no-magic lifeshaping technology, because sorcerer-kings worried too much to be kept, because this would be too necessary in the future.
I think the problem is that the people that want DS, want it with all the ugly bits. I don't think anyone is arguing that "official post-apocalyptic survival DnD" is impossible, or even some DS-adjacent setting is impossible, just that it wouldn't be what the OP and others were asking for.
You're missing the point; it's not that post-apocalypse in general is a non-started for D&D, it's that much of the identity of Dark Sun is built around transgressive themes being normalized in-setting; the fact that about half the classes aren't compatible with the "magic kills the land and there are no gods" premise and the entirely separate can of worms that would be integrating psionics as a discrete system much further than they already have don't help either.
As multiple people have said, the issue with completely retooling it is that you'll get all the people most fervently clamoring to get Dark Sun back complaining that the setting has been ruined, and once you cut through all the "this proves WotC is pushing X agenda that is a Bad Thing because I don't agree with it" chaff, the remainder will have a point that it's not the product they were asking for. It would be better to just start from the ground up and go for something that approaches realism and nuance instead of being a poster child for 90's edge- right down to the part where, cult following aside, it struggled to achieve staying power because after the novelty wears off it's too depressing to be engaging.
Except that's not how WotC would update it. They're not going to devote a page or two explaining how the setting changed or this extensive backstory.
They're just going to do what they did with Ravenloft and fully reboot the setting and present the updated world redesigned by people who never read the original books and are given carte blanche to redesign anything and everything.
The hook of Dark Sun is practically "D&D for people who hate everything about D&D except the rules." It's D&D where nothing is familiar and everything you know is different. And, in 4e, it was shifted to "D&D where the Primordials won the Dawn War and the gods died."
It's the setting where you enter a primordial jungle and a bunch of halflings emerge and the players go "... what does that mean?!" They have no idea how to react.
Which is cool. But is also hard because character concepts don't work and players need to learn something about the world before making characters.
Most of the problems can be tweaked. Spells that make food and water just cease to work. (Ditto dimensional travel.) Clerics draw their power from the Primordials and not the gods and have an elemental themed bonus feature. Alternate tracking subsystems can be added for water and food. Weapon breakage rules could be added for bone and obsidian weapons.
The problem is everything else that makes up the world. For example, halflings. Which are pretty cool. Cannibal tribes that make the few jungles unhospitable. BUT it invokes stereotypes of Pygmies. So it's easier to just make the halflings like humans, which makes them less scary and less unfamiliar. Meanwhile, the Sorcerer Kings can't really have slaves. So they just become evil emperors ruling over subjects. (And should probably just be called Sorcerer Emperors or Sorcerer Overlords to de-emphasize the gendered term "king.")
Suddenly, the cities seem less bad and the jungles seem less bad. The world feels less grimdark and bleak.
Bit by bit, you tweak the world and it just becomes less scary and oppressive. And less Dark Sun. And more just D&D on Arrakis without the sand worms.
At which point... why bother? It's shifted so much from the source material, it's basically just a new setting.
You might as well have done another Magic the Gather book set on Amonkhet or Gobakhan for all the setting resembles Dark Sun.
There’s also the part where I’m not sure they’d want to take the time to make the whole “no iron” thing viable- in 10 years I don’t think we’ve seen a single official attempt to introduce an optional overhaul to the basic units of weapon combat. Most likely because that would be a lot of work to make somewhat viable but probably wouldn’t be much of a draw to buyers. Adding new player options is a lot more attractive than making existing systems more complex and less favorable to the player.
The crunch part can be updated.
We shouldn't ban the spells to create food and water. My suggestion is there are monsters created by sorcerer-kings what can smell somebody casting those spells. You allow it, but you add a risk when these were used. Or maybe there is some risk if you cast it in a zone tainted by the defiler magic. Maybe you can use that water for a bath, but if you drink it then it would be like playing a Russian roulette.
Even if WotC dared to update the setting there is a serious risk of wrath by old players telling "this isn't my DS".
To publish a spiritual succesor recycling some elements has got some risks. Maybe they should try something style backdoor episode.
I suggest the idea of a new setting where "clones" of famous heroes and villains are created and placed into domains within a demiplane used as a "chess board" and gladiator arena with mass battles. It is like a crazy test to discover how somebody learns to be a better leader and strategist. Mainly the most of time the lords are "farming" and getting ready for any possible future war, but this is now wanted because the winner could be too weak to face a third faction. Then this could recover characters from forgotten settings, for example Jackandor, but allowing enough freedom to add new elements. One of the "chosen ones" is a lord Soth who didn't fall into the "dark side", really he is a clone with a rewritten memory, and then he hasn't got the same bad karma than the original. Or a female version of Tas the kender faces Tas the vampire kender. And characters from other franchises could appear as "guest artists". Then one of the domains would be a "bioma" imitating the region of Tyr.
You make a good point about where does Dark Sun stop being Dark Sun? I think the line will be in a different place for every person, so there's no version of it where they can change something and keep everyone happy.
As I think about it, I've started a number of Dark Sun campaigns over the years in every edition where it's been published. But every time, it really fails to be Dark Sun. We get tired of tracking water and worrying about broken swords and it basically turns into D&D in the desert. I've never been able to really pull it off and keep the feel of it for a whole campaign. I think I just kind of like the idea of Dark Sun more than I actually like playing that way. (Not trying to say my experience is universal, by any means.) It sounds so cool, but its just so much bookkeeping. Though maybe tracking here instead of pencil-and-paper would help with that.