im making a character that is an aasimar and i wanna do warlock but my favorite is undead warlock. I was going to do Leira as a her patron but im wondering if people would think that works or if its too much of a stretch? Im thinking it works because its believed the Leira is dead but shes not. let me know your thoughts. I just dont like celestial warlock..
im making a character that is an aasimar and i wanna do warlock but my favorite is undead warlock. I was going to do Leira as a her patron but im wondering if people would think that works or if its too much of a stretch? Im thinking it works because its believed the Leira is dead but shes not. let me know your thoughts. I just dont like celestial warlock..
That sounds like the sort of thing you'd want to work out with your DM.
Eh... really the general theme for Warlocks as presented is it's a different paradigm from the Cleric mortal/deity one, with something besides gods on the patron side of the equation. The 2014 PHB very explicitly says that Warlock patrons aren't gods in the D&D sense, and even "do whatever" 2024 conspicuously doesn't include gods themselves in the list of example patrons, either in general or for the Celestial Warlock in particular. Not familiar with Leira as a character/figure in any of the lore, so I can't speak to that directly, but if she's a full deity she's outside the indicated pool of patrons, and if she's not actually dead/undead or anything it's rather a stretch to try and make a character who is associated with her and gets undeath related powers from it.
I suppose one option if you absolutely must have both those points could be that your pact is with the ghost of a saint or something associated with the deity who has somehow come into play. Provides correlation to both the powers and the ultimate figure.
Player & DM should choose patron, but in the end the Warlock can make a pact who just about anything, even another entity than it think. Leira, being the Goddess of Deception & Illusion believed to be dead could play on this aspect. Undead essentially say you've made a pact with a deathless being, a creature that defies the cycle and life and death afterall. By the late 15th century DR, it became known that Leira was in fact alive and delighted in the confusion created by rumors of her demise and return....
I would allow an Aasimar Undead Warlock of Leira without problem if one my player wanted to play that.
If interested in additional lore, one of Leira alias is Mistshadow, and her manifestion typically include:
Manifestations Gray, smoke-like mists, often accompanied by two piercing black eyes or simply the sensation of being intensely watched, and by a chiming, unearthly, apparently random music that came out of nowhere and seemed unconcerned with anything (such as forming a tune, or even a rhythm); a disembodied voice, sometimes perceived only by those who worship Leira.
I would think Myrkul is a better choice for a Paladin that also makes a warlock contract with undead as liches have served Myrkul before, so Myrkul as a Cleric Patron and one of Myrkul's Cleric-Liches as a Warlock Patron would work. That said I am not familiar enough with Leira to know if Leira had Lich followers or not.
Imo, as a DM, my workaround would be coordinating with my player to create an NPC that serves the god.
Let’s say there was a lich or vampire that swore allegiance to the god before they were transformed into an undead. They strayed from their oath and violated themselves into becoming a monster. The god, pitying their vassal but also wanting to teach them a lesson, keeps them in their current form but calls on them to fulfill their oath and serve the god as a herald or representative.
Warlock makes pact with said creature, serving the god through said pact. Profit.
Eh... really the general theme for Warlocks as presented is it's a different paradigm from the Cleric mortal/deity one, with something besides gods on the patron side of the equation. The 2014 PHB very explicitly says that Warlock patrons aren't gods in the D&D sense, and even "do whatever" 2024 conspicuously doesn't include gods themselves in the list of example patrons, either in general or for the Celestial Warlock in particular. Not familiar with Leira as a character/figure in any of the lore, so I can't speak to that directly, but if she's a full deity she's outside the indicated pool of patrons, and if she's not actually dead/undead or anything it's rather a stretch to try and make a character who is associated with her and gets undeath related powers from it.
I suppose one option if you absolutely must have both those points could be that your pact is with the ghost of a saint or something associated with the deity who has somehow come into play. Provides correlation to both the powers and the ultimate figure.
In the Forgotten Realm lore, Leira is the Deity of Illusion, while Mask is the Deity of Thievery and Deceit. Choosing either of them as warlock Patrons is probably ill-advised. Undead Patrons are probably grouped under either the Fiend category or the Great Old One category. The High Court of the Fey probably will refuse to have anything to do with Undead beings and Celestial Patrons will also bar Undead Patrons from their company as well.
Given that she is the FR deity of lies and illusions and may (or may not) have been dead for much of the 4e time period it’s not a complete stretch to have her acting like a patron to help confuse the issue of whether she is alive or dead.
Given that she is the FR deity of lies and illusions and may (or may not) have been dead for much of the 4e time period it’s not a complete stretch to have her acting like a patron to help confuse the issue of whether she is alive or dead.
Depends on how you interpret the baseline mechanics of Patrons- as I said, 2014 was explicit about the patrons not being gods, and notably Vecna- the lich who became a god of necromancy- is not listed as one of the example patrons for the Undead subclass. End of the day your table, your setting, your call for all that, but lore-wise it’s indicated that deities don’t operate on the right wavelength to directly sponsor Warlocks.
Given that she is the FR deity of lies and illusions and may (or may not) have been dead for much of the 4e time period it’s not a complete stretch to have her acting like a patron to help confuse the issue of whether she is alive or dead.
Depends on how you interpret the baseline mechanics of Patrons- as I said, 2014 was explicit about the patrons not being gods, and notably Vecna- the lich who became a god of necromancy- is not listed as one of the example patrons for the Undead subclass. End of the day your table, your setting, your call for all that, but lore-wise it’s indicated that deities don’t operate on the right wavelength to directly sponsor Warlocks.
In the case of Celestial Patrons, I had always assumed that the Patron was either a Deva, a Planetar or a Solar that was sponsoring warlock clients in accordance with an overarching strategy by a deity. Similarly, the NPC cambion named Lorcan might sponsor warlock clients in obedience to a strategy that is administered by Asmodeus.
I don't know of any reason why a God could not make a deal. I can think of reasons why many might not want to, but no rule to say that they cannot do so. I can also see reasons why a God would WANT to.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I don't know of any reason why a God could not make a deal. I can think of reasons why many might not want to, but no rule to say that they cannot do so. I can also see reasons why a God would WANT to.
Depending on which edition of D&D you are using and depending on which campaign setting you are using, deities may prefer to NOT deal directly with mortals. In the Forgotten Realms setting, as a result of the Avatar event (aka 'The Time of Troubles') and the Spell plague event, deities keep a certain distance between themselves and mortals, preferring to use intermediaries to convey messages to mortals.
I don't know of any reason why a God could not make a deal. I can think of reasons why many might not want to, but no rule to say that they cannot do so. I can also see reasons why a God would WANT to.
The easiest answer- and the one implicit per the 2014 description- is that the magic doesn’t work that way. When a god bestows spellcasting power, you get a Cleric or Paladin. Divine magic functions as X, but Warlocks function under Y. Again, not an absolute immovable pillar of the game, but they’ve been very consistent in the lore about not listing deities as patrons.
implicit in 2014 and now deleted. I view that pillar as moved because it was dumb.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
If you're looking for a "canon" entity that is both deity and warlock patron, The Raven Queen qualifies. Bonus points since she's a deity of death, so wouldn't need to be dead herself.
im making a character that is an aasimar and i wanna do warlock but my favorite is undead warlock. I was going to do Leira as a her patron but im wondering if people would think that works or if its too much of a stretch? Im thinking it works because its believed the Leira is dead but shes not. let me know your thoughts. I just dont like celestial warlock..
That sounds like the sort of thing you'd want to work out with your DM.
pronouns: he/she/they
Patrons are often gods. I don't see the problem.
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Eh... really the general theme for Warlocks as presented is it's a different paradigm from the Cleric mortal/deity one, with something besides gods on the patron side of the equation. The 2014 PHB very explicitly says that Warlock patrons aren't gods in the D&D sense, and even "do whatever" 2024 conspicuously doesn't include gods themselves in the list of example patrons, either in general or for the Celestial Warlock in particular. Not familiar with Leira as a character/figure in any of the lore, so I can't speak to that directly, but if she's a full deity she's outside the indicated pool of patrons, and if she's not actually dead/undead or anything it's rather a stretch to try and make a character who is associated with her and gets undeath related powers from it.
I suppose one option if you absolutely must have both those points could be that your pact is with the ghost of a saint or something associated with the deity who has somehow come into play. Provides correlation to both the powers and the ultimate figure.
Player & DM should choose patron, but in the end the Warlock can make a pact who just about anything, even another entity than it think. Leira, being the Goddess of Deception & Illusion believed to be dead could play on this aspect. Undead essentially say you've made a pact with a deathless being, a creature that defies the cycle and life and death afterall. By the late 15th century DR, it became known that Leira was in fact alive and delighted in the confusion created by rumors of her demise and return....
I would allow an Aasimar Undead Warlock of Leira without problem if one my player wanted to play that.
If interested in additional lore, one of Leira alias is Mistshadow, and her manifestion typically include:
I would think Myrkul is a better choice for a Paladin that also makes a warlock contract with undead as liches have served Myrkul before, so Myrkul as a Cleric Patron and one of Myrkul's Cleric-Liches as a Warlock Patron would work. That said I am not familiar enough with Leira to know if Leira had Lich followers or not.
Imo, as a DM, my workaround would be coordinating with my player to create an NPC that serves the god.
Let’s say there was a lich or vampire that swore allegiance to the god before they were transformed into an undead. They strayed from their oath and violated themselves into becoming a monster. The god, pitying their vassal but also wanting to teach them a lesson, keeps them in their current form but calls on them to fulfill their oath and serve the god as a herald or representative.
Warlock makes pact with said creature, serving the god through said pact. Profit.
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In the Forgotten Realm lore, Leira is the Deity of Illusion, while Mask is the Deity of Thievery and Deceit. Choosing either of them as warlock Patrons is probably ill-advised. Undead Patrons are probably grouped under either the Fiend category or the Great Old One category. The High Court of the Fey probably will refuse to have anything to do with Undead beings and Celestial Patrons will also bar Undead Patrons from their company as well.
There's already an Undead subclass/patron for Warlocks, which is what this thread was about. It was included in Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft.
pronouns: he/she/they
Given that she is the FR deity of lies and illusions and may (or may not) have been dead for much of the 4e time period it’s not a complete stretch to have her acting like a patron to help confuse the issue of whether she is alive or dead.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Depends on how you interpret the baseline mechanics of Patrons- as I said, 2014 was explicit about the patrons not being gods, and notably Vecna- the lich who became a god of necromancy- is not listed as one of the example patrons for the Undead subclass. End of the day your table, your setting, your call for all that, but lore-wise it’s indicated that deities don’t operate on the right wavelength to directly sponsor Warlocks.
Ah, I had not known about the Ravenloft setting, partly because my DM is not interested in dealing with that setting.
In the case of Celestial Patrons, I had always assumed that the Patron was either a Deva, a Planetar or a Solar that was sponsoring warlock clients in accordance with an overarching strategy by a deity. Similarly, the NPC cambion named Lorcan might sponsor warlock clients in obedience to a strategy that is administered by Asmodeus.
I don't know of any reason why a God could not make a deal. I can think of reasons why many might not want to, but no rule to say that they cannot do so. I can also see reasons why a God would WANT to.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Depending on which edition of D&D you are using and depending on which campaign setting you are using, deities may prefer to NOT deal directly with mortals. In the Forgotten Realms setting, as a result of the Avatar event (aka 'The Time of Troubles') and the Spell plague event, deities keep a certain distance between themselves and mortals, preferring to use intermediaries to convey messages to mortals.
The easiest answer- and the one implicit per the 2014 description- is that the magic doesn’t work that way. When a god bestows spellcasting power, you get a Cleric or Paladin. Divine magic functions as X, but Warlocks function under Y. Again, not an absolute immovable pillar of the game, but they’ve been very consistent in the lore about not listing deities as patrons.
implicit in 2014 and now deleted. I view that pillar as moved because it was dumb.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
If you're looking for a "canon" entity that is both deity and warlock patron, The Raven Queen qualifies. Bonus points since she's a deity of death, so wouldn't need to be dead herself.
Which is why they started listing deities as patrons in the 2024 PHB, especially for the Celestial subclass. Oh, wait...
As I've said, you do you, but it remains pretty implicit in their 2024 and beyond stuff.