1800 x .5 = 900 which is a medium encounter but is says to be careful when it comes to using a CR higher than the average level of the characters. In this case the Gorgon is a CR 5 and the Players are 3rd level.
It would really help to know what classes your PCs are playing and therefore determine their average damage per round. Biggest issue is if the PCs fail on their saving throws and become stone/unable to move. Also do you plan to use average hit points, roll for them, or determine the monsters hp?
Let's go with the Average 114 Hp, and assume worse case scenario and the creature acts before the PCs. If the PCs are all bunched together, then technically the fight could end on round with everyone turned to stone, but the PCs would have to fail twice for that to happen, though one fail is going to seriously hurt the PCs chances of survival. So the creature likely is going to use its first turn on using its Petrifying Breath.
We'll assume that was a surprise round, since we are looking at potential deadliness, and the creature acts first on turn one. Player One takes 18 points of damage (average, could be 29 points, with a +8 to hit, that means with Plate you only need to roll a 12 to hit a PC, and most PCs are going to have way less armor, So you are probably hitting every round, and this is the worse case scenario so lets assume you do). So if you roll for damage, the first PC attacked, even a Barbarian, could be dead on impact should you roll max damage/crit and the PC have rolled poorly for HP. This leaves us 5 PCs and one PC who may no longer be with the living. PCs attack. Eyeballing it, most PCs are going to need 17 - their str/dex to hit (Its AC is 19 so I'm assuming they are using something that will benefit from their proficiency bonus). Depending on how you arrived at your stats may influence this, I'll go a bit low and say an average of 3, so the PCs need to roll a 14 to hit. Roughly 1/3 of the PCs hitting each round. Magic can alter this as it could require the monster to save or take damage.
If your PCs do roughly 5 -7 points of damage (PCs are clever creatures so that is probably low), so I'm going to go with 5 points each, that means 10 - 20 in damage (as roughly only half of the party scores a hit) in the first round. In Round two another PC may meet their end and you are left with four PCs with the probability someone failed their save, you have either 4 or 5 PCs left. The Monster potentially has around 90 - 100 hit points left and can take out any PC that received damage prior at this point. So you permanently lose a PC a round and the PCs will fail to bring the monster to 0 hit points.
So my opinion is that a Gorgon is deadly for a group of 6 3rd level characters. Especially the characters that actually get hit. At least this is my opinion without knowing the specifics of the PCs and trying to assume averages.
We have a Rogue (Thief), Warlock (Tome), Ranger (Hunter dual wielding), Druid (Moon), and two Barbarians (one Bear and one Wolf). They all have a +4 - +6 to hit. Just using the HP provided for the Gorgon.
The Druid usually opens with Faerie Fire and the Ranger usually starts with Hunter's Mark and has Colossus Slayer. The Rogue and Warlock stay at range while everyone else gets up close.
We have a Rogue (Thief), Warlock (Tome), Ranger (Hunter dual wielding), Druid (Moon), and two Barbarians (one Bear and one Wolf). They all have a +4 - +6 to hit. Just using the HP provided for the Gorgon.
The Druid usually opens with Faerie Fire and the Ranger usually starts with Hunter's Mark and has Colossus Slayer. The Rogue and Warlock stay at range while everyone else gets up close.
So what are their ACs and Hit points and any idea how much damage they tend to do per round? I still think it is likely the challenge is going to be too much for the party as at 114 hit points with the monster doing up to 29 points of damage a round, I have my doubts any of them could survive a round or two from the creature individually. Might end up with a member of the party still alive, but maybe no one else. And at 29 that would instakill anyone with less than 29 hp, which I imagine would probably be most of the party.
The barbarians while raging the barbarians do 2d6+7 points of damage per round, the rogue when sneak attacking does 3d6+3, the ranger does 2d6+1d8+3 twice, the warlock is only doing 1d10+3 and the Druid varies based on form. If they all hit and do average damage they deal about 80 points of damage around. With 40 and 34 hp and damage reduction the barbarians are tough, but the Rogue and Warlock are very squishy.
You are most likely right. I am just having a hard time finding something that they don't just walk all over but is not an instant TPK.
Barbarian AC 15 HP 40, Barbarian AC 18 HP 34, Rogue AC 15 HP 20, Ranger AC 16 HP 32, Warlock AC 12 HP 24,
That poor druid. Is the druid not wearing armor at all? I think the druid needs a shield and some better armor and man looks like the druid rolled really low on hit points too.
Looks like you need multiple monsters rather than one big monster. Anything that is going to divide their attention can be challenging. Also use the environment. Tomorrow when I get home I'll try to look at some specific monsters.
Also remember that the way D&D is suppose to work is that the players have around 4 encounters before they have a long rest.
You can also have attacks in waves which lowers the difficulty and allows you to judge how many second round opponents need to show up. Could be a completely different monster that was attracted by the noise.
As they are sleeping before they have time to regain hit points have orcs attack them from both sides. Each side has two pairs of orcs who throw Javelins at the PCs and are accompanied by a number of Orcs with great axes.
The great axe orcs run into battle while the javelin ones remain behind and launch a ranged attack.
I would say each orc has 30 hp. Maybe 15 or so for the ranged orcs to be on the safe side.
1800 x .5 = 900 which is a medium encounter but is says to be careful when it comes to using a CR higher than the average level of the characters. In this case the Gorgon is a CR 5 and the Players are 3rd level.
So is it too much or is it a medium encounter?
They could, but be careful because one player could die.
Yes, it is a combinations of two hard hitting and durable barbarians and a squishy Rogue and Warlock. Anything that is tough enough to challenge the barbarians crushes the rest of the party. Everything else is a cake walk. The Druid has a low AC and HP, until he takes beast form, which makes his actually stats kind of irrelevant in combat, though it has bitten him in the butt out side of combat more than once.
The Scenario I am planning has the party travelling to the ruins of a monastery (Friar Tuck not Shaolin) because of a terrible beast that is using the broken husk of the ruins as a lair. The monastery is not very large, mostly just a few crumbling walls. The party will get there late in the day, battle the beast and then discover a hidden entrance into a previously sealed and unexplored catacombs (one character has already dug up some rumors about it.(
the monster is meant to be a very serious threat, but is ultimately not the real goal. There are no other threats to face on the way there and they will be able to rest afterwards. I wanted to use the Gorgon, it is something that they have not encountered in previous campaigns. I have been DM for a long time, but I am new to 5e and working on striking the right balance in this new system, though so far I have loved 5e and so has the players.
As a side note the catacombs will have slimes, molds and fungus with a scattering of undead. And of course traps and puzzles.
The Major Problem with the Gorgon is his breath attack that could paralyze both Barbarians and then turn them both to stone. At third level the party doesn't really have an option to combat being turned to stone. The other issue is at 29 Points you could potentially get insta-kill on everyone except the Barbarians, though a Crit might do so. Beyond those two issues, the Gorgon would be fine as a challenge. I think its really hard to balance a monster that can so permanently remove characters from combat, especially when its the guy's doing the major damage to the monster. Granted as for its regular attacks, if it can concentrate on the Barbarians it wouldn't be so bad. Even the Gorgon is probably going to be a cakewalk if the PCs do their typical 80 points of damage a round and don't fail the save. But with the Gorgon someone is probably ending up insta-killed depending on how the battle plays out.
The Druid deserves to be slapped for not buying armor. Or at least informed how important armor is and how he can only wild shape a limited number of times, making him pretty much a sitting duck the rest of the time.
The Maticore as presented in the Monster Manual won't be the challenge you are looking for as it appears your group can kill it in less than one turn before it even has a chance to act. The Maticore is a good choice as none of its attacks can insta-kill (Its fine if a character dies from getting hit twice as they get to make saves and the party can try healing them, which can add to the difficulty). It definitely needs max hp, and I feel like it needs something else. Either some barding increasing its AC or give it a good amount more hp so it can last more than half a turn.
Yeah, the Gorgon is some thing that I will wait till they level up. The breath weapon will be an issue for many levels since character saves don't increase very much.
I will bump up the hit points of the manticore for sure. I think that it will start in the air so it will do two things for me, help it last longer and teach some of the players that having a ranged weapon is a good idea even if it not your primary weapon.
6 x 3rd level characters have the following Thresholds: 450 (Easy), 900 (Medium), 1350 (Hard), and 2400 (Deadly). A Gorgon sitting at 1800 XP falls closer to Hard then it does Deadly. I'd say they would be fine with it,. however if you've hit them with a lot of medium/hard encounters already, they may be rather spent and not be able to handle it. Depends on your players really.
Edit to Add: The worry about the Barbarians turning to stone - Barbarians are proficient in Con saves, and you'd assume that most would have a Con mod of +2, so thats a +4 bonus with a DC of 13. They then have 2nd save to roll if they fail the first the following round. Whilst it is possible, I'd be more worried on the players that aren't proficient in Con saves.
6 x 3rd level characters have the following Thresholds: 450 (Easy), 900 (Medium), 1350 (Hard), and 2400 (Deadly). A Gorgon sitting at 1800 XP falls closer to Hard then it does Deadly. I'd say they would be fine with it,. however if you've hit them with a lot of medium/hard encounters already, they may be rather spent and not be able to handle it. Depends on your players really.
Edit to Add: The worry about the Barbarians turning to stone - Barbarians are proficient in Con saves, and you'd assume that most would have a Con mod of +2, so thats a +4 bonus with a DC of 13. They then have 2nd save to roll if they fail the first the following round. Whilst it is possible, I'd be more worried on the players that aren't proficient in Con saves.
I've never stated that the PCs couldn't technically win a fight against a Gorgon, Just a matter of how many of them is going to be alive to tell the tale.
Considering the Goran can do 29 points of damage without a crit, it is in fact deadly for everyone in the party except the Barbarians and Ranger and potentially deadly for them if a crit is scored. A +4 to Con save means that you have to roll a 9 or higher. This means that a little less than 50% of the time the Barbarians will in fact fail the first save and a little more than 50% of the time the non-prof. players will fail the first save. So Basically everyone has roughly a 1/4 - 1/3 chance of becoming stone for life. So I think its fair to say 1-2 PCs will end up stone and roughly half the PCs will end up at least restrained for one round.
Yes you could probably fudge everything and have the Gorgon attack only the Barbarians, but the actual encounter circumstances would influence whether that is feasible. Attacking anyone other than the Ranger and Barbarians could result in the Permanent death of one of the characters in a single round, crit anyone could die. If at least one character has the potential for death in a single round before even acting in any way and without the ability to make saves, I would say the encounter is in fact deadly (and this is ignoring how likely the PCs are to turn to stone as that can be undone). Of course the Gorgon isn't likely to score max damage, but could. So its possible the Gorgon could be altered. It is also possible that the Gorgon could use its Breath weapon twice in a row thus making the combat even more deadly. (Yes the Dm could pull some punches)
The Gorgon is possibly going to either kill some PCs or be walked all over and not a real challenge.
Granted I feel the Manticore isn't going to be a real challenge for the PCs as there really needs to be more than a single monster against 6 PCs to make the encounter challenging.
I agree that the manticore will not be much of a real threat while the Gorgon is most likely too much of one. The "dangerous beast' that the players will be fighting is of really little importance in the grand scheme of things, but I do want it to be a dangerous encounter. I am still weighing my options. I need to look through the Volo's guide and see what might be lurking in there. I can always modify the Manticore to be a bit more powerful as well or go with a mated pair.
More is always better for challenging PCs rather than one creature. An exception is creatures with legendary abilities. They usually have a lot more Hp and a lot more attacks to make up for going at things solo.
Perhaps a CR 4 creature then? If you are going Aberration/Monstrosity then around the CR 4 mark you have Lamia or Chuul. If you were thinking of going more Fiendish, then perhaps a Shadow Demon or [Tooltip Not Found]. If you are wanting to remain more beast like perhaps either a Barghest or a Yeth Hound from Volo's Guide?
I have six players as well, and I have found that multiple monsters is usually the way to go. It is very hard to find any one monster that will provide a sufficient challenge, without killing someone with one hit. Your party could probably handle one manticore and 2-3 CR 1/2 monsters.
If you are worried about an encounter being too difficult (or not hard enough), you can always creatively edit the monster in question. Maybe decrease the amount of damage the Gorgon can do in one hit, and give it an extra attack. That way it is still doing about the same amount of damage per round, but can spread it out across a few people.
Can 6 3rd level characters take on a Gorgon?
1800 x .5 = 900 which is a medium encounter but is says to be careful when it comes to using a CR higher than the average level of the characters. In this case the Gorgon is a CR 5 and the Players are 3rd level.
So is it too much or is it a medium encounter?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
It would really help to know what classes your PCs are playing and therefore determine their average damage per round. Biggest issue is if the PCs fail on their saving throws and become stone/unable to move. Also do you plan to use average hit points, roll for them, or determine the monsters hp?
Let's go with the Average 114 Hp, and assume worse case scenario and the creature acts before the PCs. If the PCs are all bunched together, then technically the fight could end on round with everyone turned to stone, but the PCs would have to fail twice for that to happen, though one fail is going to seriously hurt the PCs chances of survival. So the creature likely is going to use its first turn on using its Petrifying Breath.
We'll assume that was a surprise round, since we are looking at potential deadliness, and the creature acts first on turn one. Player One takes 18 points of damage (average, could be 29 points, with a +8 to hit, that means with Plate you only need to roll a 12 to hit a PC, and most PCs are going to have way less armor, So you are probably hitting every round, and this is the worse case scenario so lets assume you do). So if you roll for damage, the first PC attacked, even a Barbarian, could be dead on impact should you roll max damage/crit and the PC have rolled poorly for HP. This leaves us 5 PCs and one PC who may no longer be with the living. PCs attack. Eyeballing it, most PCs are going to need 17 - their str/dex to hit (Its AC is 19 so I'm assuming they are using something that will benefit from their proficiency bonus). Depending on how you arrived at your stats may influence this, I'll go a bit low and say an average of 3, so the PCs need to roll a 14 to hit. Roughly 1/3 of the PCs hitting each round. Magic can alter this as it could require the monster to save or take damage.
If your PCs do roughly 5 -7 points of damage (PCs are clever creatures so that is probably low), so I'm going to go with 5 points each, that means 10 - 20 in damage (as roughly only half of the party scores a hit) in the first round. In Round two another PC may meet their end and you are left with four PCs with the probability someone failed their save, you have either 4 or 5 PCs left. The Monster potentially has around 90 - 100 hit points left and can take out any PC that received damage prior at this point. So you permanently lose a PC a round and the PCs will fail to bring the monster to 0 hit points.
So my opinion is that a Gorgon is deadly for a group of 6 3rd level characters. Especially the characters that actually get hit. At least this is my opinion without knowing the specifics of the PCs and trying to assume averages.
We have a Rogue (Thief), Warlock (Tome), Ranger (Hunter dual wielding), Druid (Moon), and two Barbarians (one Bear and one Wolf). They all have a +4 - +6 to hit. Just using the HP provided for the Gorgon.
The Druid usually opens with Faerie Fire and the Ranger usually starts with Hunter's Mark and has Colossus Slayer. The Rogue and Warlock stay at range while everyone else gets up close.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
The barbarians while raging the barbarians do 2d6+7 points of damage per round, the rogue when sneak attacking does 3d6+3, the ranger does 2d6+1d8+3 twice, the warlock is only doing 1d10+3 and the Druid varies based on form. If they all hit and do average damage they deal about 80 points of damage around. With 40 and 34 hp and damage reduction the barbarians are tough, but the Rogue and Warlock are very squishy.
You are most likely right. I am just having a hard time finding something that they don't just walk all over but is not an instant TPK.
Barbarian AC 15 HP 40, Barbarian AC 18 HP 34, Rogue AC 15 HP 20, Ranger AC 16 HP 32, Warlock AC 12 HP 24,
Druid AC 11 HP 19 (but varies with form)
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
That poor druid. Is the druid not wearing armor at all? I think the druid needs a shield and some better armor and man looks like the druid rolled really low on hit points too.
Looks like you need multiple monsters rather than one big monster. Anything that is going to divide their attention can be challenging. Also use the environment. Tomorrow when I get home I'll try to look at some specific monsters.
Also remember that the way D&D is suppose to work is that the players have around 4 encounters before they have a long rest.
You can also have attacks in waves which lowers the difficulty and allows you to judge how many second round opponents need to show up. Could be a completely different monster that was attracted by the noise.
The Druid didn't buy armor because he doesn't get to use it in animal form, but yeah he is a kind of the weak link while in his normal form.
Thanks for the help by the way.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Orcs!
As they are sleeping before they have time to regain hit points have orcs attack them from both sides. Each side has two pairs of orcs who throw Javelins at the PCs and are accompanied by a number of Orcs with great axes.
The great axe orcs run into battle while the javelin ones remain behind and launch a ranged attack.
I would say each orc has 30 hp. Maybe 15 or so for the ranged orcs to be on the safe side.
Alright I have decided to go with a Manticore. It is a CR 3, but with flight and a ranged attack I think it will do just what I need it to do.
The orcs will work perfect for another location the party will be traveling through so I will keep them in mind.
Thanks again
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D&D Beyond FoundersRaging barbarians can be amazingly durable, so I suspect that's part of the problem you're having?
Push them with more encounters between long rests and more opponents in a fight, rather than just a single, large monster. :)
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Yes, it is a combinations of two hard hitting and durable barbarians and a squishy Rogue and Warlock. Anything that is tough enough to challenge the barbarians crushes the rest of the party. Everything else is a cake walk. The Druid has a low AC and HP, until he takes beast form, which makes his actually stats kind of irrelevant in combat, though it has bitten him in the butt out side of combat more than once.
The Scenario I am planning has the party travelling to the ruins of a monastery (Friar Tuck not Shaolin) because of a terrible beast that is using the broken husk of the ruins as a lair. The monastery is not very large, mostly just a few crumbling walls. The party will get there late in the day, battle the beast and then discover a hidden entrance into a previously sealed and unexplored catacombs (one character has already dug up some rumors about it.(
the monster is meant to be a very serious threat, but is ultimately not the real goal. There are no other threats to face on the way there and they will be able to rest afterwards. I wanted to use the Gorgon, it is something that they have not encountered in previous campaigns. I have been DM for a long time, but I am new to 5e and working on striking the right balance in this new system, though so far I have loved 5e and so has the players.
As a side note the catacombs will have slimes, molds and fungus with a scattering of undead. And of course traps and puzzles.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
The Major Problem with the Gorgon is his breath attack that could paralyze both Barbarians and then turn them both to stone. At third level the party doesn't really have an option to combat being turned to stone. The other issue is at 29 Points you could potentially get insta-kill on everyone except the Barbarians, though a Crit might do so. Beyond those two issues, the Gorgon would be fine as a challenge. I think its really hard to balance a monster that can so permanently remove characters from combat, especially when its the guy's doing the major damage to the monster. Granted as for its regular attacks, if it can concentrate on the Barbarians it wouldn't be so bad. Even the Gorgon is probably going to be a cakewalk if the PCs do their typical 80 points of damage a round and don't fail the save. But with the Gorgon someone is probably ending up insta-killed depending on how the battle plays out.
The Druid deserves to be slapped for not buying armor. Or at least informed how important armor is and how he can only wild shape a limited number of times, making him pretty much a sitting duck the rest of the time.
The Maticore as presented in the Monster Manual won't be the challenge you are looking for as it appears your group can kill it in less than one turn before it even has a chance to act. The Maticore is a good choice as none of its attacks can insta-kill (Its fine if a character dies from getting hit twice as they get to make saves and the party can try healing them, which can add to the difficulty). It definitely needs max hp, and I feel like it needs something else. Either some barding increasing its AC or give it a good amount more hp so it can last more than half a turn.
Yeah, the Gorgon is some thing that I will wait till they level up. The breath weapon will be an issue for many levels since character saves don't increase very much.
I will bump up the hit points of the manticore for sure. I think that it will start in the air so it will do two things for me, help it last longer and teach some of the players that having a ranged weapon is a good idea even if it not your primary weapon.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
6 x 3rd level characters have the following Thresholds: 450 (Easy), 900 (Medium), 1350 (Hard), and 2400 (Deadly). A Gorgon sitting at 1800 XP falls closer to Hard then it does Deadly. I'd say they would be fine with it,. however if you've hit them with a lot of medium/hard encounters already, they may be rather spent and not be able to handle it. Depends on your players really.
Edit to Add: The worry about the Barbarians turning to stone - Barbarians are proficient in Con saves, and you'd assume that most would have a Con mod of +2, so thats a +4 bonus with a DC of 13. They then have 2nd save to roll if they fail the first the following round. Whilst it is possible, I'd be more worried on the players that aren't proficient in Con saves.
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Yes you could probably fudge everything and have the Gorgon attack only the Barbarians, but the actual encounter circumstances would influence whether that is feasible. Attacking anyone other than the Ranger and Barbarians could result in the Permanent death of one of the characters in a single round, crit anyone could die. If at least one character has the potential for death in a single round before even acting in any way and without the ability to make saves, I would say the encounter is in fact deadly (and this is ignoring how likely the PCs are to turn to stone as that can be undone). Of course the Gorgon isn't likely to score max damage, but could. So its possible the Gorgon could be altered. It is also possible that the Gorgon could use its Breath weapon twice in a row thus making the combat even more deadly. (Yes the Dm could pull some punches)
I agree that the manticore will not be much of a real threat while the Gorgon is most likely too much of one. The "dangerous beast' that the players will be fighting is of really little importance in the grand scheme of things, but I do want it to be a dangerous encounter. I am still weighing my options. I need to look through the Volo's guide and see what might be lurking in there. I can always modify the Manticore to be a bit more powerful as well or go with a mated pair.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
More is always better for challenging PCs rather than one creature. An exception is creatures with legendary abilities. They usually have a lot more Hp and a lot more attacks to make up for going at things solo.
Perhaps a CR 4 creature then? If you are going Aberration/Monstrosity then around the CR 4 mark you have Lamia or Chuul. If you were thinking of going more Fiendish, then perhaps a Shadow Demon or [Tooltip Not Found]. If you are wanting to remain more beast like perhaps either a Barghest or a Yeth Hound from Volo's Guide?
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Wary the wizard who focuses on homebrew, for he can create nightmares that you wouldn't even dream of
I have six players as well, and I have found that multiple monsters is usually the way to go. It is very hard to find any one monster that will provide a sufficient challenge, without killing someone with one hit. Your party could probably handle one manticore and 2-3 CR 1/2 monsters.
If you are worried about an encounter being too difficult (or not hard enough), you can always creatively edit the monster in question. Maybe decrease the amount of damage the Gorgon can do in one hit, and give it an extra attack. That way it is still doing about the same amount of damage per round, but can spread it out across a few people.
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