Oh, I've been feeling sorry for demons ever since 4th Edition, when they lost all their nuance in favor of just being generic destructive monsters with no personality, unlike the devils that are now suddenly a lesser shade of evil and get so much more focus.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Eh, personally I think there's something to be said for the simplicity of base Evil as a powerful force. And considering the only real source of an organized "devils are a necessary evil" argument rather than "let's just let those two sides keep spending most of their effort killing each other" I know of was from Asmodeus, I take the thesis with a grain of salt roughly the size of Sol.
I would say that you're somewhat misrepresenting the result (the Pit Fiend did win but barely, the Balor did lose but did a lot of damage). The simulator also made a few mistakes (particularly, Death Throes should be DC 20, damage 9d6 fire + 9d6 force; it implemented it as DC 30, damage 9d6 fire; correcting that leaves the wizard at 0 hp). The difference between "two character down" and "TPK" is actually pretty narrow. That said, the Balor does have problems -- notably, a lot of its power budget is tied up in its death throes, and such a mechanic is generally inefficient (front-loaded damage is always better than late damage) and completely useless for winning fights.
Glabrezus embody delusion and predatory guile. These cunning demons know the most effective traps are those that individuals devise for themselves. Despite having massive claws and overwhelming physicality, glabrezus excel at using flattery and misdirection to coerce victims into isolating themselves and harming others.
Many nalfeshnees view themselves as prospective demon lords and seek to conquer realms of their own. They often use promises of fiendish magic or Abyssal alliances to tempt ambitious mortals into ruinous pacts. Should they run out of patience, nalfeshnees conjure visions of the Abyss and other nightmares to terrorize others into obeying.
Yochlols embody the pernicious will and infectious philosophies of the Abyss. In their rarely seen true forms, these noxious manipulators appear as ever-shifting masses of dripping tentacles and toxic flesh crowned by a single baleful eye. More often, though, yochlols take the form of spiders or zealous cultists. They use manipulative magic and dangerous rhetoric to spread demonic cults, corrupt the righteous, and further the plots of their fiendish overlords. They relish coercing the unwitting into furthering demonic plots and turning mortals against one another.
And that's not even getting into the various Princes. Yes, more demons tend towards mindless- dare I say chaotic- destruction than devils, but even the new MM has multiple entries that make note of demons that go in for cunning and manipulation. Heck, the Balor has 20 INT.
I find the Pit Friend fight interesting. I just ran a fight with a Pit Fiend, a Glabrezu, an Efreeti and a Fire Elemental against a L13 party...the party would have barely lost (if it weren't for aces up their sleeves). If the dice had been kinder, they'd have won. It's their first campaign as well, so hardly D&D world champions either.
Which makes it curious that the simulator reckons a single Lit Fiend would consistently win against a L12 party.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I find the Pit Friend fight interesting. I just ran a fight with a Pit Fiend, a Glabrezu, an Efreeti and a Fire Elemental against a L13 party...the party would have barely lost (if it weren't for aces up their sleeves). If the dice had been kinder, they'd have won. It's their first campaign as well, so hardly D&D world champions either.
Which makes it curious that the simulator reckons a single Lit Fiend would consistently win against a L12 party.
What was your party composition and magic items?
I tested a party of 5 level 13 versus the equivalent in CR (Pitfiend, Fire Elemental, Abominal Yeti) and the PCs won, decent fight though.
Which makes it curious that the simulator reckons a single Lit Fiend would consistently win against a L12 party.
Well, it's AI run so tactics on both sides are questionable (probably more questionable for the party -- PC builds have more options and thus it's easier to make bad decisions), and at least one build is complete nonsense (the fighter has attack +11, damage 2d6+7, with what claims to be a +3 maul. A sane 2024 build at that level would be attack +12, damage 2d6+12), and some monster abilities appear incorrectly implemented. However, it had the same disadvantages vs the balor.
I find the Pit Friend fight interesting. I just ran a fight with a Pit Fiend, a Glabrezu, an Efreeti and a Fire Elemental against a L13 party...the party would have barely lost (if it weren't for aces up their sleeves). If the dice had been kinder, they'd have won. It's their first campaign as well, so hardly D&D world champions either.
Which makes it curious that the simulator reckons a single Lit Fiend would consistently win against a L12 party.
What was your party composition and magic items?
I tested a party of 5 level 13 versus the equivalent in CR (Pitfiend, Fire Elemental, Abominal Yeti) and the PCs won, decent fight though.
I don't track the magic items so I don't know about those (I just trust the players), but it was a Life Cleric, BearBarian, Gloomstalker and a DracoSorc. Two were down, one was heavily mauled and the last one was a little battered when they pulled the ace out. The monsters were two down, and the last two were heavily beaten but still going. They might have won, but I think the PF would have managed to do the last two standing (no healing left). Just surprising that a PF could "easily wipe" a L12 party when solo when it struggled against a L13 party even with a fairly substantial friend list.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I mean they are supposed to be type VI demons, the greatest of the demons...
You are missing context in the lore as to why one is weaker. There are waaay more Balor than Pit Fiends (very limited number). And any Balor worth his salt isn't going to fight a Pit Fiend 1v1.
I find the Pit Friend fight interesting. I just ran a fight with a Pit Fiend, a Glabrezu, an Efreeti and a Fire Elemental against a L13 party...the party would have barely lost (if it weren't for aces up their sleeves). If the dice had been kinder, they'd have won. It's their first campaign as well, so hardly D&D world champions either.
2014 or 2024 game? Because
2014 pit fiend: AC 19, 300 hp, 78 dpr (plus poison that causes ongoing damage).
2024 pit fiend: AC 21, 337 hp, 113 dpr (plus poison that causes ongoing damage).
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I mean they are supposed to be type VI demons, the greatest of the demons...
But they are so weak compared to a Pit Fiend (only one CR higher)
Pretty sure they used to be almost even matchup in 1st edition.
I know it "says CR 19" but the damage is not there. Four Level 11 PCs easily defeat it.
The Pit Fiend meanwhile can easily wipe four level 12 PCs.
1) A 1 CR difference is a much bigger deal at 19-20 than it is at 1-2, so saying "there's only 1 CR difference!" is misleading.
2) Pit Fiends are supposed to be stronger. Balors outnumber them by... a lot. Like, a lot a lot.
Oh, I've been feeling sorry for demons ever since 4th Edition, when they lost all their nuance in favor of just being generic destructive monsters with no personality, unlike the devils that are now suddenly a lesser shade of evil and get so much more focus.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Eh, personally I think there's something to be said for the simplicity of base Evil as a powerful force. And considering the only real source of an organized "devils are a necessary evil" argument rather than "let's just let those two sides keep spending most of their effort killing each other" I know of was from Asmodeus, I take the thesis with a grain of salt roughly the size of Sol.
Simplicity's all well and good, but there was a point when demons were able to be more than just dumb muscle.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I would say that you're somewhat misrepresenting the result (the Pit Fiend did win but barely, the Balor did lose but did a lot of damage). The simulator also made a few mistakes (particularly, Death Throes should be DC 20, damage 9d6 fire + 9d6 force; it implemented it as DC 30, damage 9d6 fire; correcting that leaves the wizard at 0 hp). The difference between "two character down" and "TPK" is actually pretty narrow. That said, the Balor does have problems -- notably, a lot of its power budget is tied up in its death throes, and such a mechanic is generally inefficient (front-loaded damage is always better than late damage) and completely useless for winning fights.
From the new MM:
And that's not even getting into the various Princes. Yes, more demons tend towards mindless- dare I say chaotic- destruction than devils, but even the new MM has multiple entries that make note of demons that go in for cunning and manipulation. Heck, the Balor has 20 INT.
I find the Pit Friend fight interesting. I just ran a fight with a Pit Fiend, a Glabrezu, an Efreeti and a Fire Elemental against a L13 party...the party would have barely lost (if it weren't for aces up their sleeves). If the dice had been kinder, they'd have won. It's their first campaign as well, so hardly D&D world champions either.
Which makes it curious that the simulator reckons a single Lit Fiend would consistently win against a L12 party.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
What was your party composition and magic items?
I tested a party of 5 level 13 versus the equivalent in CR (Pitfiend, Fire Elemental, Abominal Yeti) and the PCs won, decent fight though.
Well, it's AI run so tactics on both sides are questionable (probably more questionable for the party -- PC builds have more options and thus it's easier to make bad decisions), and at least one build is complete nonsense (the fighter has attack +11, damage 2d6+7, with what claims to be a +3 maul. A sane 2024 build at that level would be attack +12, damage 2d6+12), and some monster abilities appear incorrectly implemented. However, it had the same disadvantages vs the balor.
I don't track the magic items so I don't know about those (I just trust the players), but it was a Life Cleric, BearBarian, Gloomstalker and a DracoSorc. Two were down, one was heavily mauled and the last one was a little battered when they pulled the ace out. The monsters were two down, and the last two were heavily beaten but still going. They might have won, but I think the PF would have managed to do the last two standing (no healing left). Just surprising that a PF could "easily wipe" a L12 party when solo when it struggled against a L13 party even with a fairly substantial friend list.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
You are missing context in the lore as to why one is weaker. There are waaay more Balor than Pit Fiends (very limited number). And any Balor worth his salt isn't going to fight a Pit Fiend 1v1.
2014 or 2024 game? Because