They should just errata this rule, change it to what it was during the beta test and update DND Beyond to work this way and just make everyone's life easier. After all, adding the change doesn't prevent anyone from using backgrounds for ASI as written, but not having it does prevent (or at least create a hurdle) to doing it in DNDbeyond character generator as you have to do custom changes to implement it so far as I understand it.
The custom version (identical to the UA playtest, essentially) is in the DMG. I think they've stated that implementing it in dndbeyond is "in progress" (and given the number of software irons in the fire right now, that might take awhile).
And you can basically fake it by using the 2014 custom background with the 2024 rules for adapting older backgrounds (though the dndbeyond support for that is wonky and requires workarounds).
The thread is getting a bit off topic - but off topic in a way that provides an example as to why some folks “hate” on new rule systems.
One reason folks dislike new systems often comes down to not knowing what they contain. Take the discussion about floating ASI, with some folks saying they do not exist. Floating ASI does exist in 2024 - the DMG explicitly states folks can modify or create backgrounds as they choose. This is not implemented very well in Beyond - but I don’t think anyone truly believes Beyond’s rollout of 2024 is anything other than a bit bungled. With the custom backgrounds rules being buried in the DMG (for reasons I think make sense, even if they do create ancillary confusion) and with the main digital platform not really showcasing them, it is hardly surprising there is some uncertainty and frustration over the rules as written and the implementation of those rules in places folks would utilize them.
That is actually a good thing - confusion and poor implementation are temporary and rectifiable states. They might hold folks back from early adoption, but, as folks become more familiar with the rule sets, their distrust of the new system lessens and they can more easily move from the “hate” category to the “love” category.
I am also seeing the ever-present, never valid “this is all a conspiracy to move people into online play” conspiracy. This conspiracy is, of course, rather silly. One could go on and on about how support for pen and paper is baked into 2024 (ex. Explicitly warning players against filling in certain elements of character sheets until later so they won’t have to erase or use white out) and is clearly recognized as a core aspect of the game (heck, the devs nerd out over their pen and paper games all the time). One could also point out Wizards has been releasing their own digital tools, including subscription tools (4e’s D&D Insider), for almost two decades. Pretty clear pen and paper is not going anywhere - no matter how many folks seem to love spreading or hinting at this particular conspiracy here on D&D Beyond.
This also holds a bit of a silver lining. The conspiracy is pervasive and effective - folks are scared about digital transformations right now, not just in game, but generally. But years and years have shown pen and paper and digital can exist side by side, not as competitors, but simply as two different, equally valid means to the same end. As more people realize that the conspiracy is based on a faulty premise of a zero sum game, hopefully they will stop listening to the folks pushing it.
Which, of course, also gives cause for hope - once people stop focusing on superficial and poorly-contrived conspiracies, they might move past the misapplied “hate” they have for digitization, and realize they can play the game in whatever way they love.
I am also seeing the ever-present, never valid “this is all a conspiracy to move people into online play” conspiracy. This conspiracy is, of course, rather silly.
It's hardly a conspiracy theory. Wizards of the Coast has made massive investments in digitizing Dungeons and Dragons over the last few years, the name of the game in their own words is monetization. I don't think they expect that the entirety of the gaming community will shift to online play, but they don't see people who play D&D at the table in a traditional way as the future consumers of their product. The future of their product is digital sales and digital subscriptions, that is their focus, if you aren't paying for DnDBeyond, if in the future you are not a member of Sigil (or whatever they end up calling it) for all intents and purposes, your not a customer. In a word, they don't care if you buy their books, to them, that is weekend beer money. They want you shelling out 20-30 bucks a month for online D&D, buying online skins, new DLC's etc.. etc.. that is where the real money is.
It's like the old saying in the Phone App business. One whale is worth a 1,000 customers.
If they were actually interested in supporting tabletop gameplay, they would turn digital D&D over to the community like every other RPG on the market today and focus on printing better books.
There is perfectly reasonable logic for their business direction, so I'm not saying they are wrong or stupid, but to suggest they are not doing it is naive.
I am also seeing the ever-present, never valid “this is all a conspiracy to move people into online play” conspiracy. This conspiracy is, of course, rather silly.
It's hardly a conspiracy theory. Wizards of the Coast has made massive investments in digitizing Dungeons and Dragons over the last few years, the name of the game in their own words is monetization. I don't think they expect that the entirety of the gaming community will shift to online play, but they don't see people who play D&D at the table in a traditional way as the future consumers of their product. The future of their product is digital sales and digital subscriptions, that is their focus, if you aren't paying for DnDBeyond, if in the future you are not a member of Sigil (or whatever they end up calling it) for all intents and purposes, your not a customer. In a word, they don't care if you buy their books, to them, that is weekend beer money. They want you shelling out 20-30 bucks a month for online D&D, buying online skins, new DLC's etc.. etc.. that is where the real money is.
It's like the old saying in the Phone App business. One whale is worth a 1,000 customers.
If they were actually interested in supporting tabletop gameplay, they would turn digital D&D over to the community like every other RPG on the market today and focus on printing better books.
There is perfectly reasonable logic for their business direction, so I'm not saying they are wrong or stupid, but to suggest they are not doing it is naive.
As is pretty obvious from my post, the critique is of people who move past “Wizards is supporting digital play” (an undeniable reality) into the conspiratorial territory of “because they want to kill pen and paper play for [insert conspiratorial reason].” That is the conspiracy being addressed in the quote you picked - and it is a conspiracy theory that very clearly does exist, usually perpetuated by the same people who hate Wizards and want to ensure others hate Wizards also.
And it works, because there is some element of truth. Wizards is focusing on digital play… the conspiracy theorists ignore this is not a 2024 trend, but something that started 17 years ago… and, to date, never did any of the harms they claim it will cause. And Wizards is putting a lot more resources into digital than pen and paper… which sounds scary, until you apply basic common sense. After all, pen and paper does most of its own support - Wizards releases a book, perhaps does some promotions and events, releases miniatures… but players themselves are doing all the rest. Digital obviously takes more effort - Wizards has to build and maintain systems, instead of players doing it on their own.
These conspiracy theorists take the correct information in your post - then take everything a step further into “and here’s how it is evil and you should be afraid” territory, seeking to turn folks against pretty mundane and easy to avoid digitization. It is yet another instance of conspiracy trumping reality and resulting in some misapplied hate against 2024.
Which, again, I think has some hope - Wizards is consistently making it clear digitization is an “and” situation, not an “instead” situation. With luck, some of the folks who see digitization as a threat to how they will play might realize “oh, I can still buy books and play as I always had” and move past the conspiratorial elements turning them away from 2024.
WoTC obviously don't mind doing both. You can have the books, but they really want you to pay a subscription too. It's not a 'conspiracy theory' - it's the simplest of simple business sense: We'd like a steady revenue stream, thank you, rather than printing expensive books you might not want to pay for. It can also be descriped as: That stuff that killed TSR - we don't want any of that.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Yet what WotC/Hasbro has been doing for quite some time is the same things that eventually forced TSR into bankruptcy. Pushing for higher and higher profits at the expense of longevity of brand.
Hard to love something that only see’s others as profit margins.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I think the main issue with 5e (for tabletop players) is that it’s a good game but the support for it is behind a paywall, and to table players the cost, I would describe as obscenely prohibitive.
I i think I’m a good example. I’m a tabletop player, and owning the three books is a must but of course, I want access to a digital character sheet for example. To get that I have to buy at least the phb again. Then if I want Monster Encounter Builder… boom buy the MM again. Etc.. etc.. not to mention subscriptions.
The type of digital support DNDBeyond is offering today, 10 years ago was free as it was community-run. This is what monetization and digital expansion means to a tabletop game and inherently the problem with what they are doing at least in terms of supporting the tabletop gaming community. Its sort of like.. sure, you can play the game on the table top but if you want to use any digital services, everything is behind a paywall. I would argue.. that is not supporting the table top community, that is an obvious trigger to make the clean cut away from tabletop gaming. If you only play online, D&D is a lot cheaper.
I'm not going to go so far as to call it a conspiracy but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that WotC and Hasbro are (intentional or not) absolutely killing traditional tabletop D&D. They are doing everything in their power to make playing D&D on a traditional table top as unattractive and expensive as they.
i can certainly see why people are looking around for alternatives. Especially if you also consider the questionable business practices of WotC and Hasbro on top of all of it.
I think the main issue with 5e is that it’s a good game but the support for it is behind a paywall, and to table players the cost, I would describe as obscenely prohibitive.
While using physical books is expensive, the reasons for that are largely not the fault of WotC.
I don’t buy rules books for the pictures, which doubles the cost to print expense which is typically passed to the customer, I buy rules books for the “Rules”. If space for a quick “scene” of reference can be made, that’s fine. But when most of a physical books core functionality is consumed with “unnecessary” content that doesn’t really assist in doing what the book is intended to do, explain how the game works, then people aren’t going to like the fact that there is little meat left on the bone and the meal ticket is unreasonably expensive.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I think the main issue with 5e (for tabletop players) is that it’s a good game but the support for it is behind a paywall, and to table players the cost, I would describe as obscenely prohibitive.
I i think I’m a good example. I’m a tabletop player, and owning the three books is a must but of course, I want access to a digital character sheet for example. To get that I have to buy at least the phb again. Then if I want Monster Encounter Builder… boom buy the MM again. Etc.. etc.. not to mention subscriptions.
The type of digital support DNDBeyond is offering today, 10 years ago was free as it was community-run. This is what monetization and digital expansion means to a tabletop game and inherently the problem with what they are doing at least in terms of supporting the tabletop gaming community. Its sort of like.. sure, you can play the game on the table top but if you want to use any digital services, everything is behind a paywall. I would argue.. that is not supporting the table top community, that is an obvious trigger to make the clean cut away from tabletop gaming. If you only play online, D&D is a lot cheaper.
I'm not going to go so far as to call it a conspiracy but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that WotC and Hasbro are (intentional or not) absolutely killing traditional tabletop D&D. They are doing everything in their power to make playing D&D on a traditional table top as unattractive and expensive as they.
i can certainly see why people are looking around for alternatives. Especially if you also consider the questionable business practices of WotC and Hasbro on top of all of it.
I truly don't have a problem with folks not buying two sets of books. I get that it seems like a lot when considered altogether. But one trip to a restaurant for some carryout for my family of 4, and the books are suddenly cheap as hell by comparison. Not everyone can afford to go out to eat every now and then; I get it. But I think for a lot of people, $100 to even $200 in one-time costs --spread over the dozens and dozens of times you end up using them -- is not bad compared to even just a couple times going out to eat (one-time enjoyments). That's how I justify it anyway.
Worth remembering that buying D&D books, whether physically or digitally, is entirely optional. You can play without spending a penny. You can use the free rules given out on DDB, you can go to Creative Commons to download the SRD, you can home brew anything you like that you stumble across on the internet. Is it expensive to buy everything? Absolutely (although I do agree with TieflingLew’s benefit per hour point) but there’s few other companies that make it quite so easy to not pay them for their product
I truly don't have a problem with folks not buying two sets of books. I get that it seems like a lot when considered altogether. But one trip to a restaurant for some carryout for my family of 4, and the books are suddenly cheap as hell by comparison. Not everyone can afford to go out to eat every now and then; I get it. But I think for a lot of people, $100 to even $200 in one-time costs --spread over the dozens and dozens of times you end up using them -- is not bad compared to even just a couple times going out to eat (one-time enjoyments). That's how I justify it anyway.
I get that and honestly, it's not the money, its the principle of the thing. Think of it this way. If you take your family out to dinner and drop 100 dollars you have certain expectations right? For example, you expect friendly service, you expect the food to be safe to eat, and you expect the bill to reflect what you purchased. We have a lot of base expectations when we go to restaurants.
Imagine going to a restaurant and the menu says 25.99 for a steak, but you get your bill and the steak is 35.99.. you ask why and they tell you, well you ordered it medium rare, so it's extra (sure enough its right there on the menu). That would not be ok right? Why? Because you have an expectation of how things work in a restaurant. If all restaurants charged 10 bucks for a medium rare steak charge and this just became the norm, at some point, we would all understand that .. ok this is how it works now, but if only one place does it, its kind of... off.
Well that's pretty much Wizards of the Coast... They are the "special" restaurant that charges an extra 10 bucks to cook your steak rare.. No one else does it, just them. Is 10 bucks a lot of money? No.. not really. Is the restaurant doing something illegal? Is it a conspiracy? Probably not. Does it feel wrong? Yeah, it kind of does.
Wizards of the Coast is this weird company that leverages the fandom and creates extra pay walls, charges and methods to pinch more money out of you and they really aren't giving you any better service or "more" for your buck. They simply deny you the things you expect to get and charge you extra for them. I mean why does it cost extra to make a 5th character on DnDbeyond? Does it cost extra to make a 4th character on Pathbuilder? or Any other RPG? Of course not, in fact, I'm hard pressed to think of any other RPG anywhere that tries to charge for making a digital character for a game you already purchased.
The problem I have is that this community is trying to normalize stuff that is pretty shady. Its not illegal, its not a conspiracy, its just kind of shows what kind of company Wizards of the Coast is. They don't want to support table top gaming, we aren't their fan base.. we are their wallets and they will pretty much do anything they think they can get away with. OGL scandal is a great example.. they tried to get away with it, for some reason this community got upset about that, but they are not upset about having to buy a players handbook a second time and paying a subscription on D&Dbeyond because somehow that is ok. I find it a rather strange acceptance and normalization of stuff that really is not normal.
Do you get what I mean. Its sort of like this subtle undercurrent of increasing micro costs that is constantly being sneaked in, piece by piece and slowly but surely the entire thing is sort of degrading into what I can only describe as a quasi-micro transaction system. Is it so expensive that people can't afford it... no, I don't think so, but no, its not a great way to treat your fans.
I have started playing in a pencil and paper books at the table I asked the Dm about DDB, and he said he doesn't use the site anymore for lots of reasons, but that he spent about as much on the things we played with as he did on DDB, he said his only D&D regret is the money he spent there.
Everything that could be had from 1st party or officially licensed sellers was used from character folios and dice to spell cards, book tabs and character sheets. We even used the boxes of terrain and the creature tokens. It was a real cool experience.
It was one of the smoothest and immersive games I have ever played.
As broken as DDB has become, a good physical setup costs about the same as a good digital setup, and can't be ruined by marketing choices.
Much like the restaurant analogies above DDB is a service so the following applies as much to DDB as a restaurant:
The root word of foodservice is service, food can be made anywhere people come for the service. From sweeping the floor and doing the dishes to the food quality and presentation it is the service that is sought.
The service at DDB has gone downhill since wotc bought the site.
It was asked where is the love, I'd say it is right there with the service when it comes to DDB. I don't see the 24 rules discussed much IRL, only digitally and I believe that is a direct result of what happens here on DDB.
I truly don't have a problem with folks not buying two sets of books. I get that it seems like a lot when considered altogether. But one trip to a restaurant for some carryout for my family of 4, and the books are suddenly cheap as hell by comparison. Not everyone can afford to go out to eat every now and then; I get it. But I think for a lot of people, $100 to even $200 in one-time costs --spread over the dozens and dozens of times you end up using them -- is not bad compared to even just a couple times going out to eat (one-time enjoyments). That's how I justify it anyway.
I get that and honestly, it's not the money, its the principle of the thing.
...Well that's pretty much Wizards of the Coast... They are the "special" restaurant that charges an extra 10 bucks to cook your steak rare.. No one else does it, just them. Is 10 bucks a lot of money? No.. not really. Is the restaurant doing something illegal? Is it a conspiracy? Probably not. Does it feel wrong? Yeah, it kind of does.
...Wizards of the Coast is this weird company that leverages the fandom and creates extra pay walls, charges and methods to pinch more money out of you and they really aren't giving you any better service or "more" for your buck. They simply deny you the things you expect to get and charge you extra for them.
...The problem I have is that this community is trying to normalize stuff that is pretty shady. ... They don't want to support table top gaming, we aren't their fan base.. we are their wallets and they will pretty much do anything they think they can get away with.
...Do you get what I mean. Its sort of like this subtle undercurrent of increasing micro costs that is constantly being sneaked in, piece by piece and slowly but surely the entire thing is sort of degrading into what I can only describe as a quasi-micro transaction system. Is it so expensive that people can't afford it... no, I don't think so, but no, its not a great way to treat your fans.
I hear what you're saying. I can understand that -- if your expectations were as you stated -- that you'd understandably feel used/undervalued.
I absolutely do not have those expectations of a corporation selling products to make a profit and increase shareholder value. Admittedly, I have very little interest in and experience with other ttrpg systems/companies. I just don't approach this hobby as something where the company selling me a product has to cherish me and provide included-add-on services.
Frankly, DnDBeyond is worth way more to me than the annual subscription I pay for it. I recently had the true joy (not sarcasm) of having my 10yo ask to play DnD with me for the first time. I've gotten so accustomed to playing using DnDBeyond and Roll20 that i was surprised at much of a pain it was to try to flip through the pages of a book to find what I needed. I could not love DnDBeyond more. I'm thankful they're not charging more (they'll probably get around to it), but for now, it's all good. And when they jack up the price, I'll weigh how much value I still see in it.
I've also benefited from friends sharing their many purchases on DnDBeyond.
From where I'm sitting, paying a couple hundred bucks for core books in digital/print once a decade and the occasional campaign or other sourcebook (I think I've only purchased a few digitally over the past five years or so), is entirely reasonable. Unlike many I see commenting online, I think the creative team running DnD does a pretty good job. I frankly rolled my eyes at the OGL scandal -- not because it wasn't a set of legitimate concerns, but because, again, that's an example of naive expectations of a publicly traded corporation with an army of lawyers and too many middle managers seeking to maximize profit. I don't blame 3rd party content creators for being salty, but I think I'd have sympathized with them more if they hadn't focused so heavily on the concept of "oh my gosh, I can't believe the bloodthirsty, profit-seeking monster was out for blood/profit at any cost."
To sum up: in my experience, there was no bait and switch. They came out with a rules revision; I liked it (for the most part), and purchased the books. DnDBeyond is an extremely convenient service; happy to pay a small annual fee (so far). Happy as well to buy the new rules digitally because I like that convenience. If other ttrpgs are not charging for some of that, that's their own strategy to compete with DnD, which dominates the market, as far as I can tell. I wish them well. If they're not in this to make money, more power to them.
D&DBeyond is a tool for playing D&D but it is not required at all. Whether you like D&DBeyond or not, that really shouldn't matter for the topic of the thread.
D&DBeyond is a tool for playing D&D but it is not required at all. Whether you like D&DBeyond or not, that really shouldn't matter for the topic of the thread.
I think it's super relevant in fact I would argue, 5th edition and D&DBeyond are linked to such a degree that this site is an integral part of the edition and game. I fully agree that you can play D&D without DNDBeyond, on or offline, but the thing is that you shouldn't ever have to.
Look here is the thing. Digital tools have always been part of D&D, going all the way back to 1st edition AD&D, the main difference between 5e and every other edition is that those digital tools were fully in the control of the community and they were free. Sure there were premium tools available, but these premium tools were not to the exclusion of free ones. Premium tools had to compete with what the community offered for free, meaning they had to produce quality.
What Wizards of the Coast has done with digital tools is outlaw all competitors and create a Monopoly. Your options are D&DBeyond or nothing.
So no, D&DBeyond is not necessary, but it's the only option. All competition that would drive quality has been eliminated. I understand that you can play D&D without digital tools, but that is not the point Im making here. I like digital tools for prep, for making characters, for organization, but in the past, all of this was free.. always. We have normalized the idea that the stuff we used to get free, we are now overcharged for as a community and everyone is sort of weirdly ok with it. I really don't get it.
D&DBeyond should not exist as a business, this is not a business model the community should be supporting. These tools should have been fan-created and free, with patrons that support its operation on a voluntary basis. It should not be owned by a corporation and it certainly shouldn't be owned by Wizards of the Coast. We as a community have created this monster and now, we are stuck with it because DnDBeyond has nothing motivating it.
Who is DnDbeyonds competition?
The reason I think it hugely reflects on this current edition of the game is this arrangement, the excessive cost, the various paywalls and microtransactions, it's all seen (rightfully) as part of what feels like a scam. Wizards of the Coast has figured out how to take something the community has always offered for free, and charge us for it and that is a thing exclusive to this edition of the game.
I agree with most of what you're saying OSR, the big thing i don't agree with is paying for DDB.
However if we are paying for a license and own nothing then things should work a lot better than they do now, considering that license can be changed or revoked at anytime for any reason they see fit.
DDB is D&D for many people and it reflects on the game immensely for many of those the love for the game equates to the love for DDB more so since wotc purchased it.
As is pretty obvious from my post, the critique is of people who move past “Wizards is supporting digital play” (an undeniable reality) into the conspiratorial territory of “because they want to kill pen and paper play for [insert conspiratorial reason].” That is the conspiracy being addressed in the quote you picked - and it is a conspiracy theory that very clearly does exist, usually perpetuated by the same people who hate Wizards and want to ensure others hate Wizards also.
And it works, because there is some element of truth. Wizards is focusing on digital play… the conspiracy theorists ignore this is not a 2024 trend, but something that started 17 years ago… and, to date, never did any of the harms they claim it will cause. And Wizards is putting a lot more resources into digital than pen and paper… which sounds scary, until you apply basic common sense. After all, pen and paper does most of its own support - Wizards releases a book, perhaps does some promotions and events, releases miniatures… but players themselves are doing all the rest. Digital obviously takes more effort - Wizards has to build and maintain systems, instead of players doing it on their own.
These conspiracy theorists take the correct information in your post - then take everything a step further into “and here’s how it is evil and you should be afraid” territory, seeking to turn folks against pretty mundane and easy to avoid digitization. It is yet another instance of conspiracy trumping reality and resulting in some misapplied hate against 2024.
Which, again, I think has some hope - Wizards is consistently making it clear digitization is an “and” situation, not an “instead” situation. With luck, some of the folks who see digitization as a threat to how they will play might realize “oh, I can still buy books and play as I always had” and move past the conspiratorial elements turning them away from 2024.
It was only yesterday when Wizards of the Coast were promoting D&D over World of Warcraft as a pastime with ads talking about how the game will never 'crash' on you.
Their capriciousness in this regard would suggest the rigidity with which you assert they will never abandon the game's pen-and-paper origins is profoundly naive.
Worth remembering that buying D&D books, whether physically or digitally, is entirely optional. You can play without spending a penny. You can use the free rules given out on DDB, you can go to Creative Commons to download the SRD, you can home brew anything you like that you stumble across on the internet. Is it expensive to buy everything? Absolutely (although I do agree with TieflingLew’s benefit per hour point) but there’s few other companies that make it quite so easy to not pay them for their product
Telling those who aren't as well off as you might be to just play without books because they can do that is a take I guess.
It's one that reminds me of when I was in school and my family unable to afford the school's materials fees. A public school's materials fees mind you. My art teacher made me make do with cheap acrylic paint when my peers were using oil paint and watercolors and other media. Do you have any idea how demoralizing that is?
Poverty is a real thing. Minimizing how terrible it is by just telling people they can go without is grossly insensitive.
Now I am sure your response is going to be that D&D is a 'luxury pastime.'
Is it? I was poor and able to play just fine in the '80s. It is only really now when we are seeing pushed on us the notion that each and every player requires a copy of the rules. Now it might be seen as a luxury pastime. So much for how it 'used to be' a game only played by middle class white kids. I am neither middle class nor white.
D&DBeyond is a tool for playing D&D but it is not required at all. Whether you like D&DBeyond or not, that really shouldn't matter for the topic of the thread.
I think it's super relevant in fact I would argue, 5th edition and D&DBeyond are linked to such a degree that this site is an integral part of the edition and game. I fully agree that you can play D&D without DNDBeyond, on or offline, but the thing is that you shouldn't ever have to.
Look here is the thing. Digital tools have always been part of D&D, going all the way back to 1st edition AD&D, the main difference between 5e and every other edition is that those digital tools were fully in the control of the community and they were free. Sure there were premium tools available, but these premium tools were not to the exclusion of free ones. Premium tools had to compete with what the community offered for free, meaning they had to produce quality.
What Wizards of the Coast has done with digital tools is outlaw all competitors and create a Monopoly. Your options are D&DBeyond or nothing.
So no, D&DBeyond is not necessary, but it's the only option. All competition that would drive quality has been eliminated. I understand that you can play D&D without digital tools, but that is not the point Im making here. I like digital tools for prep, for making characters, for organization, but in the past, all of this was free.. always. We have normalized the idea that the stuff we used to get free, we are now overcharged for as a community and everyone is sort of weirdly ok with it. I really don't get it.
D&DBeyond should not exist as a business, this is not a business model the community should be supporting. These tools should have been fan-created and free, with patrons that support its operation on a voluntary basis. It should not be owned by a corporation and it certainly shouldn't be owned by Wizards of the Coast. We as a community have created this monster and now, we are stuck with it because DnDBeyond has nothing motivating it.
Who is DnDbeyonds competition?
The reason I think it hugely reflects on this current edition of the game is this arrangement, the excessive cost, the various paywalls and microtransactions, it's all seen (rightfully) as part of what feels like a scam. Wizards of the Coast has figured out how to take something the community has always offered for free, and charge us for it and that is a thing exclusive to this edition of the game.
Ah yes, the famously free Red Box from TSR, Dungeon & Dragon Magazines from Paizo, & minatures.
Totally free. Didn't cost a dime, subscriptions & postage, or the cost of materials.
Just like Beyond was a free Archives of Nethys-style wiki before the buyout...
oh wait....
It's almost like DND was NEVER "free".
This is a common misconception, that DND was "free" back in the day.
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
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The custom version (identical to the UA playtest, essentially) is in the DMG. I think they've stated that implementing it in dndbeyond is "in progress" (and given the number of software irons in the fire right now, that might take awhile).
And you can basically fake it by using the 2014 custom background with the 2024 rules for adapting older backgrounds (though the dndbeyond support for that is wonky and requires workarounds).
The thread is getting a bit off topic - but off topic in a way that provides an example as to why some folks “hate” on new rule systems.
One reason folks dislike new systems often comes down to not knowing what they contain. Take the discussion about floating ASI, with some folks saying they do not exist. Floating ASI does exist in 2024 - the DMG explicitly states folks can modify or create backgrounds as they choose. This is not implemented very well in Beyond - but I don’t think anyone truly believes Beyond’s rollout of 2024 is anything other than a bit bungled. With the custom backgrounds rules being buried in the DMG (for reasons I think make sense, even if they do create ancillary confusion) and with the main digital platform not really showcasing them, it is hardly surprising there is some uncertainty and frustration over the rules as written and the implementation of those rules in places folks would utilize them.
That is actually a good thing - confusion and poor implementation are temporary and rectifiable states. They might hold folks back from early adoption, but, as folks become more familiar with the rule sets, their distrust of the new system lessens and they can more easily move from the “hate” category to the “love” category.
I am also seeing the ever-present, never valid “this is all a conspiracy to move people into online play” conspiracy. This conspiracy is, of course, rather silly. One could go on and on about how support for pen and paper is baked into 2024 (ex. Explicitly warning players against filling in certain elements of character sheets until later so they won’t have to erase or use white out) and is clearly recognized as a core aspect of the game (heck, the devs nerd out over their pen and paper games all the time). One could also point out Wizards has been releasing their own digital tools, including subscription tools (4e’s D&D Insider), for almost two decades. Pretty clear pen and paper is not going anywhere - no matter how many folks seem to love spreading or hinting at this particular conspiracy here on D&D Beyond.
This also holds a bit of a silver lining. The conspiracy is pervasive and effective - folks are scared about digital transformations right now, not just in game, but generally. But years and years have shown pen and paper and digital can exist side by side, not as competitors, but simply as two different, equally valid means to the same end. As more people realize that the conspiracy is based on a faulty premise of a zero sum game, hopefully they will stop listening to the folks pushing it.
Which, of course, also gives cause for hope - once people stop focusing on superficial and poorly-contrived conspiracies, they might move past the misapplied “hate” they have for digitization, and realize they can play the game in whatever way they love.
It's hardly a conspiracy theory. Wizards of the Coast has made massive investments in digitizing Dungeons and Dragons over the last few years, the name of the game in their own words is monetization. I don't think they expect that the entirety of the gaming community will shift to online play, but they don't see people who play D&D at the table in a traditional way as the future consumers of their product. The future of their product is digital sales and digital subscriptions, that is their focus, if you aren't paying for DnDBeyond, if in the future you are not a member of Sigil (or whatever they end up calling it) for all intents and purposes, your not a customer. In a word, they don't care if you buy their books, to them, that is weekend beer money. They want you shelling out 20-30 bucks a month for online D&D, buying online skins, new DLC's etc.. etc.. that is where the real money is.
It's like the old saying in the Phone App business. One whale is worth a 1,000 customers.
If they were actually interested in supporting tabletop gameplay, they would turn digital D&D over to the community like every other RPG on the market today and focus on printing better books.
There is perfectly reasonable logic for their business direction, so I'm not saying they are wrong or stupid, but to suggest they are not doing it is naive.
As is pretty obvious from my post, the critique is of people who move past “Wizards is supporting digital play” (an undeniable reality) into the conspiratorial territory of “because they want to kill pen and paper play for [insert conspiratorial reason].” That is the conspiracy being addressed in the quote you picked - and it is a conspiracy theory that very clearly does exist, usually perpetuated by the same people who hate Wizards and want to ensure others hate Wizards also.
And it works, because there is some element of truth. Wizards is focusing on digital play… the conspiracy theorists ignore this is not a 2024 trend, but something that started 17 years ago… and, to date, never did any of the harms they claim it will cause. And Wizards is putting a lot more resources into digital than pen and paper… which sounds scary, until you apply basic common sense. After all, pen and paper does most of its own support - Wizards releases a book, perhaps does some promotions and events, releases miniatures… but players themselves are doing all the rest. Digital obviously takes more effort - Wizards has to build and maintain systems, instead of players doing it on their own.
These conspiracy theorists take the correct information in your post - then take everything a step further into “and here’s how it is evil and you should be afraid” territory, seeking to turn folks against pretty mundane and easy to avoid digitization. It is yet another instance of conspiracy trumping reality and resulting in some misapplied hate against 2024.
Which, again, I think has some hope - Wizards is consistently making it clear digitization is an “and” situation, not an “instead” situation. With luck, some of the folks who see digitization as a threat to how they will play might realize “oh, I can still buy books and play as I always had” and move past the conspiratorial elements turning them away from 2024.
WoTC obviously don't mind doing both. You can have the books, but they really want you to pay a subscription too. It's not a 'conspiracy theory' - it's the simplest of simple business sense: We'd like a steady revenue stream, thank you, rather than printing expensive books you might not want to pay for. It can also be descriped as: That stuff that killed TSR - we don't want any of that.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Yet what WotC/Hasbro has been doing for quite some time is the same things that eventually forced TSR into bankruptcy. Pushing for higher and higher profits at the expense of longevity of brand.
Hard to love something that only see’s others as profit margins.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I think the main issue with 5e (for tabletop players) is that it’s a good game but the support for it is behind a paywall, and to table players the cost, I would describe as obscenely prohibitive.
I i think I’m a good example. I’m a tabletop player, and owning the three books is a must but of course, I want access to a digital character sheet for example. To get that I have to buy at least the phb again. Then if I want Monster Encounter Builder… boom buy the MM again. Etc.. etc.. not to mention subscriptions.
The type of digital support DNDBeyond is offering today, 10 years ago was free as it was community-run. This is what monetization and digital expansion means to a tabletop game and inherently the problem with what they are doing at least in terms of supporting the tabletop gaming community. Its sort of like.. sure, you can play the game on the table top but if you want to use any digital services, everything is behind a paywall. I would argue.. that is not supporting the table top community, that is an obvious trigger to make the clean cut away from tabletop gaming. If you only play online, D&D is a lot cheaper.
I'm not going to go so far as to call it a conspiracy but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that WotC and Hasbro are (intentional or not) absolutely killing traditional tabletop D&D. They are doing everything in their power to make playing D&D on a traditional table top as unattractive and expensive as they.
i can certainly see why people are looking around for alternatives. Especially if you also consider the questionable business practices of WotC and Hasbro on top of all of it.
While using physical books is expensive, the reasons for that are largely not the fault of WotC.
I don’t buy rules books for the pictures, which doubles the cost to print expense which is typically passed to the customer, I buy rules books for the “Rules”. If space for a quick “scene” of reference can be made, that’s fine.
But when most of a physical books core functionality is consumed with “unnecessary” content that doesn’t really assist in doing what the book is intended to do, explain how the game works, then people aren’t going to like the fact that there is little meat left on the bone and the meal ticket is unreasonably expensive.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I truly don't have a problem with folks not buying two sets of books. I get that it seems like a lot when considered altogether. But one trip to a restaurant for some carryout for my family of 4, and the books are suddenly cheap as hell by comparison. Not everyone can afford to go out to eat every now and then; I get it. But I think for a lot of people, $100 to even $200 in one-time costs --spread over the dozens and dozens of times you end up using them -- is not bad compared to even just a couple times going out to eat (one-time enjoyments). That's how I justify it anyway.
Worth remembering that buying D&D books, whether physically or digitally, is entirely optional. You can play without spending a penny. You can use the free rules given out on DDB, you can go to Creative Commons to download the SRD, you can home brew anything you like that you stumble across on the internet. Is it expensive to buy everything? Absolutely (although I do agree with TieflingLew’s benefit per hour point) but there’s few other companies that make it quite so easy to not pay them for their product
I get that and honestly, it's not the money, its the principle of the thing. Think of it this way. If you take your family out to dinner and drop 100 dollars you have certain expectations right? For example, you expect friendly service, you expect the food to be safe to eat, and you expect the bill to reflect what you purchased. We have a lot of base expectations when we go to restaurants.
Imagine going to a restaurant and the menu says 25.99 for a steak, but you get your bill and the steak is 35.99.. you ask why and they tell you, well you ordered it medium rare, so it's extra (sure enough its right there on the menu). That would not be ok right? Why? Because you have an expectation of how things work in a restaurant. If all restaurants charged 10 bucks for a medium rare steak charge and this just became the norm, at some point, we would all understand that .. ok this is how it works now, but if only one place does it, its kind of... off.
Well that's pretty much Wizards of the Coast... They are the "special" restaurant that charges an extra 10 bucks to cook your steak rare.. No one else does it, just them. Is 10 bucks a lot of money? No.. not really. Is the restaurant doing something illegal? Is it a conspiracy? Probably not. Does it feel wrong? Yeah, it kind of does.
Wizards of the Coast is this weird company that leverages the fandom and creates extra pay walls, charges and methods to pinch more money out of you and they really aren't giving you any better service or "more" for your buck. They simply deny you the things you expect to get and charge you extra for them. I mean why does it cost extra to make a 5th character on DnDbeyond? Does it cost extra to make a 4th character on Pathbuilder? or Any other RPG? Of course not, in fact, I'm hard pressed to think of any other RPG anywhere that tries to charge for making a digital character for a game you already purchased.
The problem I have is that this community is trying to normalize stuff that is pretty shady. Its not illegal, its not a conspiracy, its just kind of shows what kind of company Wizards of the Coast is. They don't want to support table top gaming, we aren't their fan base.. we are their wallets and they will pretty much do anything they think they can get away with. OGL scandal is a great example.. they tried to get away with it, for some reason this community got upset about that, but they are not upset about having to buy a players handbook a second time and paying a subscription on D&Dbeyond because somehow that is ok. I find it a rather strange acceptance and normalization of stuff that really is not normal.
Do you get what I mean. Its sort of like this subtle undercurrent of increasing micro costs that is constantly being sneaked in, piece by piece and slowly but surely the entire thing is sort of degrading into what I can only describe as a quasi-micro transaction system. Is it so expensive that people can't afford it... no, I don't think so, but no, its not a great way to treat your fans.
I have started playing in a pencil and paper books at the table I asked the Dm about DDB, and he said he doesn't use the site anymore for lots of reasons, but that he spent about as much on the things we played with as he did on DDB, he said his only D&D regret is the money he spent there.
Everything that could be had from 1st party or officially licensed sellers was used from character folios and dice to spell cards, book tabs and character sheets. We even used the boxes of terrain and the creature tokens. It was a real cool experience.
It was one of the smoothest and immersive games I have ever played.
As broken as DDB has become, a good physical setup costs about the same as a good digital setup, and can't be ruined by marketing choices.
Much like the restaurant analogies above DDB is a service so the following applies as much to DDB as a restaurant:
The root word of foodservice is service, food can be made anywhere people come for the service. From sweeping the floor and doing the dishes to the food quality and presentation it is the service that is sought.
The service at DDB has gone downhill since wotc bought the site.
It was asked where is the love, I'd say it is right there with the service when it comes to DDB. I don't see the 24 rules discussed much IRL, only digitally and I believe that is a direct result of what happens here on DDB.
I hear what you're saying. I can understand that -- if your expectations were as you stated -- that you'd understandably feel used/undervalued.
I absolutely do not have those expectations of a corporation selling products to make a profit and increase shareholder value. Admittedly, I have very little interest in and experience with other ttrpg systems/companies. I just don't approach this hobby as something where the company selling me a product has to cherish me and provide included-add-on services.
Frankly, DnDBeyond is worth way more to me than the annual subscription I pay for it. I recently had the true joy (not sarcasm) of having my 10yo ask to play DnD with me for the first time. I've gotten so accustomed to playing using DnDBeyond and Roll20 that i was surprised at much of a pain it was to try to flip through the pages of a book to find what I needed. I could not love DnDBeyond more. I'm thankful they're not charging more (they'll probably get around to it), but for now, it's all good. And when they jack up the price, I'll weigh how much value I still see in it.
I've also benefited from friends sharing their many purchases on DnDBeyond.
From where I'm sitting, paying a couple hundred bucks for core books in digital/print once a decade and the occasional campaign or other sourcebook (I think I've only purchased a few digitally over the past five years or so), is entirely reasonable. Unlike many I see commenting online, I think the creative team running DnD does a pretty good job. I frankly rolled my eyes at the OGL scandal -- not because it wasn't a set of legitimate concerns, but because, again, that's an example of naive expectations of a publicly traded corporation with an army of lawyers and too many middle managers seeking to maximize profit. I don't blame 3rd party content creators for being salty, but I think I'd have sympathized with them more if they hadn't focused so heavily on the concept of "oh my gosh, I can't believe the bloodthirsty, profit-seeking monster was out for blood/profit at any cost."
To sum up: in my experience, there was no bait and switch. They came out with a rules revision; I liked it (for the most part), and purchased the books. DnDBeyond is an extremely convenient service; happy to pay a small annual fee (so far). Happy as well to buy the new rules digitally because I like that convenience. If other ttrpgs are not charging for some of that, that's their own strategy to compete with DnD, which dominates the market, as far as I can tell. I wish them well. If they're not in this to make money, more power to them.
D&DBeyond is a tool for playing D&D but it is not required at all. Whether you like D&DBeyond or not, that really shouldn't matter for the topic of the thread.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I think it's super relevant in fact I would argue, 5th edition and D&DBeyond are linked to such a degree that this site is an integral part of the edition and game. I fully agree that you can play D&D without DNDBeyond, on or offline, but the thing is that you shouldn't ever have to.
Look here is the thing. Digital tools have always been part of D&D, going all the way back to 1st edition AD&D, the main difference between 5e and every other edition is that those digital tools were fully in the control of the community and they were free. Sure there were premium tools available, but these premium tools were not to the exclusion of free ones. Premium tools had to compete with what the community offered for free, meaning they had to produce quality.
What Wizards of the Coast has done with digital tools is outlaw all competitors and create a Monopoly. Your options are D&DBeyond or nothing.
So no, D&DBeyond is not necessary, but it's the only option. All competition that would drive quality has been eliminated. I understand that you can play D&D without digital tools, but that is not the point Im making here. I like digital tools for prep, for making characters, for organization, but in the past, all of this was free.. always. We have normalized the idea that the stuff we used to get free, we are now overcharged for as a community and everyone is sort of weirdly ok with it. I really don't get it.
D&DBeyond should not exist as a business, this is not a business model the community should be supporting. These tools should have been fan-created and free, with patrons that support its operation on a voluntary basis. It should not be owned by a corporation and it certainly shouldn't be owned by Wizards of the Coast. We as a community have created this monster and now, we are stuck with it because DnDBeyond has nothing motivating it.
Who is DnDbeyonds competition?
The reason I think it hugely reflects on this current edition of the game is this arrangement, the excessive cost, the various paywalls and microtransactions, it's all seen (rightfully) as part of what feels like a scam. Wizards of the Coast has figured out how to take something the community has always offered for free, and charge us for it and that is a thing exclusive to this edition of the game.
I agree with most of what you're saying OSR, the big thing i don't agree with is paying for DDB.
However if we are paying for a license and own nothing then things should work a lot better than they do now, considering that license can be changed or revoked at anytime for any reason they see fit.
DDB is D&D for many people and it reflects on the game immensely for many of those the love for the game equates to the love for DDB more so since wotc purchased it.
It was only yesterday when Wizards of the Coast were promoting D&D over World of Warcraft as a pastime with ads talking about how the game will never 'crash' on you.
Their capriciousness in this regard would suggest the rigidity with which you assert they will never abandon the game's pen-and-paper origins is profoundly naive.
Telling those who aren't as well off as you might be to just play without books because they can do that is a take I guess.
It's one that reminds me of when I was in school and my family unable to afford the school's materials fees. A public school's materials fees mind you. My art teacher made me make do with cheap acrylic paint when my peers were using oil paint and watercolors and other media. Do you have any idea how demoralizing that is?
Poverty is a real thing. Minimizing how terrible it is by just telling people they can go without is grossly insensitive.
Now I am sure your response is going to be that D&D is a 'luxury pastime.'
Is it? I was poor and able to play just fine in the '80s. It is only really now when we are seeing pushed on us the notion that each and every player requires a copy of the rules. Now it might be seen as a luxury pastime. So much for how it 'used to be' a game only played by middle class white kids. I am neither middle class nor white.
Ah yes, the famously free Red Box from TSR, Dungeon & Dragon Magazines from Paizo, & minatures.
Totally free. Didn't cost a dime, subscriptions & postage, or the cost of materials.
Just like Beyond was a free Archives of Nethys-style wiki before the buyout...
oh wait....
It's almost like DND was NEVER "free".
This is a common misconception, that DND was "free" back in the day.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.