So, I was DMing a game last night. I put the players into a dream sequence where they were put against a CR 20 Animal Lord.
This is a group of 4 Level 6 players (Cleric, Ranger, Rogue, and a Cheese Grater). We are playing 2024 rules, and I dont house rule anything. Straight RAW. The players have built their characters from anything they wanted that is valid for 2024. Any source material that isnt overriden by 2024 rules. So a slightly more powerful group than a generic 2024 PHB party.
I played the Animal Lord as a Sage and mostly shot them with Radiant Rays and used Animal Spirit. The only punches I pulled (for RP purposes) was I didnt really have the enemy move much, and I didnt use the one Sunburst I could have used. But other than that, I played this as a legit enemy.
This Level 6 party actually defeated the CR20 Animal Lord! Now, it was close. I knocked out all 4 party members (but not until they dealt 310 of the Animal Lord's 323 health...). And then the Cleric hit a 20 on their death save, popped up and got off a Mass Healing Word and then they finished it off. So yes, it was close. But honestly, if the CR rating system (or the Monsters in the book for that matter) had ANY credibility at all, it shouldn't have even been close at all.
Now, I have suspected all along, since the Monster Manual came out, that the creature hit points all look low (at least in comparison to what my players can dish out) but i thought the Animal Lord's damage output would take care of that. It didnt. The session was a great litmus test btw for me to know with certainty exactly what my group can handle. But geez, cmon? This is ridiculous right? Do I really have to throw my players at a creature 14 CRs above them to make it truly deadly? Or maybe I am just going to have to start doubling the health of everything in the MM.
I played the Animal Lord as a Sage and mostly shot them with Radiant Rays and used Animal Spirit. The only punches I pulled (for RP purposes) was I didnt really have the enemy move much, and I didnt use the one Sunburst I could have used. But other than that, I played this as a legit enemy.
Here's your problem. If they would've used sunburst, half of the party would've been instantly one shotted. I'm not saying that's amazing design, but you need to use all of a monster's abilities for it to match its cr.
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I agree it would have made the difference. It would have been over earlier. I am a bit surprise that this one ability that I didnt use (for RP purposes) is the difference between a Level 6 party beating a CR20 creature. That big of a gap and it shouldnt have needed its biggest ability. But yes, that would have done it. I agree.
To be fair, you didn't effectively use the abilities of the Animal Lord for RP reasons, so your group won for RP reasons. You can't really blame the CR for that.
I agree it would have made the difference. It would have been over earlier. I am a bit surprise that this one ability that I didnt use (for RP purposes) is the difference between a Level 6 party beating a CR20 creature. That big of a gap and it shouldnt have needed its biggest ability. But yes, that would have done it. I agree.
Again, it’s an 8th level damage spell; that is some serious damage output. And monster blocks anymore are largely designed with the assumption that combat powers will only be relevant for one encounter per day/at all, so there’s more emphasis on strong openers rather than the kind of relatively sustained output PCs have.
It's also worth noting that it's CR20. That sounds high because it's meant to be a Medium encounter for L20s...but it's meant to be 6-8 of them in a day, and still be fairly confident that they'll get by without dying. I know L6 is a lot lower, but they can also afford to nova during the encounter. How the CR system works isn't immediately intuitive.
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Besides the Sunburst going unused, not moving much could also make a big difference. I'm not saying this is what happened, but I wonder if you were pulling punches in smaller ways without realizing it. For example, was he using all 3 of his legendary actions each round? Also, it sounds like if not for that nat 20 on the death save, it would likely have been a TPK. In addition a few more player favorable rolls (or DM unfavorable rolls) than average can also swing an encounter, if only by a little.
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All the world's indeed a stage, and we are merely players, performers and portrayers...
Action Economy means that single monsters usually lose.
4 characters means 12 or more actions (4 Actions, 4 Bonus Actions, 4 Reactions, possible Actions from summoned creatures) for every 1 or 2 actions of the foe (and most 5E creatures don't have useful Bonus Actions).
If the foe goes last in Initiative, it is probably dead before it gets to act.
Legendary Actions and Legendary Saves can cover for this a bit (it is what they were designed for) but the real answer is - don't use solo monsters.
I would have used the sunburst but I would have lowered the damage dice to maybe 8d6. I would want them to feel the danger but maybe let them getting a few attacks in so they don't feel railroaded into a fight they did not see as fight they definitely would not win.
5e has trouble with solo monsters in general, but I would have solved the sunburst problem by just using a different type of animal lord, such as a forager (probably the best low level boss fight option, because of its fortify mechanic). However, unless your PCs are dramatically stronger than they're supposed to be, even ignoring the sunburst you probably misplayed the monster -- not because of its defenses, because of its offense. Its ranged multiattack is a base of 68 damage (animal spirit for 28, two rays for 40), its ranged legendary actions are another 60, total 128 (base) dpr, all with attack +12 or save DC 20. In melee, increase attack bonus to +13, dpr to 133, and add lordly presence for another 10 per target. This will typically deplete PC HP supplies in about two rounds, though healing might add a third round, and I would not expect level 6 PCs to manage 100+ dpr against AC 19.
My guess is that you forgot part of its offense, though insanely overpowered PCs is a possibility.
I would have used the sunburst but I would have lowered the damage dice to maybe 8d6. I would want them to feel the danger but maybe let them getting a few attacks in so they don't feel railroaded into a fight they did not see as fight they definitely would not win.
So ya, thats one of the reasons I chose not to use the Sunburst. This was a dream sequence, and I didnt want to them to realize their futility right away and end the dream.
Besides the Sunburst going unused, not moving much could also make a big difference. I'm not saying this is what happened, but I wonder if you were pulling punches in smaller ways without realizing it. For example, was he using all 3 of his legendary actions each round? Also, it sounds like if not for that nat 20 on the death save, it would likely have been a TPK. In addition a few more player favorable rolls (or DM unfavorable rolls) than average can also swing an encounter, if only by a little.
The only punches I pulled were the sunburst, and movement. I tried to play it legit outside of those things. I used all 3 legendary actions each round. All Radiant Ray. And ya, without the Nat 20 it would have likely been TPK. But really, I didnt expect it to even be close, and was shocked it was.
Fair, but just to reiterate one last time, “only” not using the massive damage AoE is cutting out a lot of what contributes to the CR. The other two forms use more passive effects to boost their challenge- one adds 20 temp HP every round which probably would have carried it through the second wind, and the other basically singles out one target to attack with advantage each round, with enough attacks for crits to crop up every two rounds or so on average. Sage looks to be more reliant on its big opener rather than ongoing effects to pressure the party.
So, I was DMing a game last night. I put the players into a dream sequence where they were put against a CR 20 Animal Lord.
This is a group of 4 Level 6 players (Cleric, Ranger, Rogue, and a Cheese Grater).
I don't know what a Cheese Grater is but testing a Cleric, Ranger, Rogue and Barbarian 6th level on the battle simulator led to their consistent death event without Sunburst. example:
Also STR mod of +7, Athletics of +13, and Magic Resistance to help against forced movement from spells. Yeah, not sure how a 6th level party dragged one anywhere more than once.
4 players of 6th level. So a CR20 monster against a CR20 ((6-1) X 4) party? So a close fight would be the expected outcome, wouldn't it? Then given the multiple attacks and all the party brings to the table, straight up combat would favor party, especially since you chose to limit the monster's effectiveness
4 players of 6th level. So a CR20 monster against a CR20 ((6-1) X 4) party? So a close fight would be the expected outcome, wouldn't it? Then given the multiple attacks and all the party brings to the table, straight up combat would favor party, especially since you chose to limit the monster's effectiveness
Not sure if the formula breaks down that cleanly; depending on the tactics employed, at a certain gap a BBEG is outputting enough damage to down party members fast enough to counteract action economy advantage. And most players’ bag of tricks are fairly limited at 6th level.
Despite the issue of not using Sunburst and therefore not playing the Animal Lord to its full ability, the poster does have a point. 5e2024 upped the damage that a party can inflict, but did not up the hp of the characters nor monsters. Quite frankly, with how much damage most characters can easily do now, they should have doubled the hp of all monsters.
Also keep in mind that those CRs are designed for characters made with point buy. If you use any other system, and/or hand out magic items, that system quickly breaks down even more than it already is.
I recently ran a one-shot for 2024 characters of 5th level. I've been DMing for over 40 yrs, I looked at what the charts said the group could handle and laughed (I then added much more to the encounters, and it worked out just right). They used point buy, and had no magic items, but if I had followed the encounter CR charts, it would have been a cake walk for them.
My suggestion for 5e2024... If using point buy, and no magic items, max out the hp of all enemies and consider adding 50% more of them.
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So, I was DMing a game last night. I put the players into a dream sequence where they were put against a CR 20 Animal Lord.
This is a group of 4 Level 6 players (Cleric, Ranger, Rogue, and a Cheese Grater). We are playing 2024 rules, and I dont house rule anything. Straight RAW. The players have built their characters from anything they wanted that is valid for 2024. Any source material that isnt overriden by 2024 rules. So a slightly more powerful group than a generic 2024 PHB party.
I played the Animal Lord as a Sage and mostly shot them with Radiant Rays and used Animal Spirit. The only punches I pulled (for RP purposes) was I didnt really have the enemy move much, and I didnt use the one Sunburst I could have used. But other than that, I played this as a legit enemy.
This Level 6 party actually defeated the CR20 Animal Lord! Now, it was close. I knocked out all 4 party members (but not until they dealt 310 of the Animal Lord's 323 health...). And then the Cleric hit a 20 on their death save, popped up and got off a Mass Healing Word and then they finished it off. So yes, it was close. But honestly, if the CR rating system (or the Monsters in the book for that matter) had ANY credibility at all, it shouldn't have even been close at all.
Now, I have suspected all along, since the Monster Manual came out, that the creature hit points all look low (at least in comparison to what my players can dish out) but i thought the Animal Lord's damage output would take care of that. It didnt. The session was a great litmus test btw for me to know with certainty exactly what my group can handle. But geez, cmon? This is ridiculous right? Do I really have to throw my players at a creature 14 CRs above them to make it truly deadly? Or maybe I am just going to have to start doubling the health of everything in the MM.
What do you all think?
Here's your problem. If they would've used sunburst, half of the party would've been instantly one shotted. I'm not saying that's amazing design, but you need to use all of a monster's abilities for it to match its cr.
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I agree it would have made the difference. It would have been over earlier. I am a bit surprise that this one ability that I didnt use (for RP purposes) is the difference between a Level 6 party beating a CR20 creature. That big of a gap and it shouldnt have needed its biggest ability. But yes, that would have done it. I agree.
Yeah, not using the 8th level damage spell rather significantly skews the performance relative to the printed CR.
To be fair, you didn't effectively use the abilities of the Animal Lord for RP reasons, so your group won for RP reasons. You can't really blame the CR for that.
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Again, it’s an 8th level damage spell; that is some serious damage output. And monster blocks anymore are largely designed with the assumption that combat powers will only be relevant for one encounter per day/at all, so there’s more emphasis on strong openers rather than the kind of relatively sustained output PCs have.
It's also worth noting that it's CR20. That sounds high because it's meant to be a Medium encounter for L20s...but it's meant to be 6-8 of them in a day, and still be fairly confident that they'll get by without dying. I know L6 is a lot lower, but they can also afford to nova during the encounter. How the CR system works isn't immediately intuitive.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Besides the Sunburst going unused, not moving much could also make a big difference. I'm not saying this is what happened, but I wonder if you were pulling punches in smaller ways without realizing it. For example, was he using all 3 of his legendary actions each round? Also, it sounds like if not for that nat 20 on the death save, it would likely have been a TPK. In addition a few more player favorable rolls (or DM unfavorable rolls) than average can also swing an encounter, if only by a little.
All the world's indeed a stage, and we are merely players, performers and portrayers...
Action Economy means that single monsters usually lose.
4 characters means 12 or more actions (4 Actions, 4 Bonus Actions, 4 Reactions, possible Actions from summoned creatures) for every 1 or 2 actions of the foe (and most 5E creatures don't have useful Bonus Actions).
If the foe goes last in Initiative, it is probably dead before it gets to act.
Legendary Actions and Legendary Saves can cover for this a bit (it is what they were designed for) but the real answer is - don't use solo monsters.
I would have used the sunburst but I would have lowered the damage dice to maybe 8d6. I would want them to feel the danger but maybe let them getting a few attacks in so they don't feel railroaded into a fight they did not see as fight they definitely would not win.
TO DEFEND: THIS IS THE PACT.
BUT WHEN LIFE LOSES ITS VALUE,
AND IS TAKEN FOR NAUGHT-
THEN THE PACT IS, TO AVENGE.
5e has trouble with solo monsters in general, but I would have solved the sunburst problem by just using a different type of animal lord, such as a forager (probably the best low level boss fight option, because of its fortify mechanic). However, unless your PCs are dramatically stronger than they're supposed to be, even ignoring the sunburst you probably misplayed the monster -- not because of its defenses, because of its offense. Its ranged multiattack is a base of 68 damage (animal spirit for 28, two rays for 40), its ranged legendary actions are another 60, total 128 (base) dpr, all with attack +12 or save DC 20. In melee, increase attack bonus to +13, dpr to 133, and add lordly presence for another 10 per target. This will typically deplete PC HP supplies in about two rounds, though healing might add a third round, and I would not expect level 6 PCs to manage 100+ dpr against AC 19.
My guess is that you forgot part of its offense, though insanely overpowered PCs is a possibility.
So ya, thats one of the reasons I chose not to use the Sunburst. This was a dream sequence, and I didnt want to them to realize their futility right away and end the dream.
The only punches I pulled were the sunburst, and movement. I tried to play it legit outside of those things. I used all 3 legendary actions each round. All Radiant Ray. And ya, without the Nat 20 it would have likely been TPK. But really, I didnt expect it to even be close, and was shocked it was.
I appreciate everyone's feedback!
Fair, but just to reiterate one last time, “only” not using the massive damage AoE is cutting out a lot of what contributes to the CR. The other two forms use more passive effects to boost their challenge- one adds 20 temp HP every round which probably would have carried it through the second wind, and the other basically singles out one target to attack with advantage each round, with enough attacks for crits to crop up every two rounds or so on average. Sage looks to be more reliant on its big opener rather than ongoing effects to pressure the party.
Also, all three are noticeably more dangerous in melee. I'm still surprised by it being close, with vanilla builds it would not be.
I don't know what a Cheese Grater is but testing a Cleric, Ranger, Rogue and Barbarian 6th level on the battle simulator led to their consistent death event without Sunburst.
example:
all dead fight
Four level 8 characters died too
If you run it yourself and check the logs maybe you were missing something.
Cheese grater IME refers to casting spike growth then grapple and drag.
It wouldn't work on an animal lord, though, because the animal lord has Fly (hover).
Also STR mod of +7, Athletics of +13, and Magic Resistance to help against forced movement from spells. Yeah, not sure how a 6th level party dragged one anywhere more than once.
4 players of 6th level. So a CR20 monster against a CR20 ((6-1) X 4) party? So a close fight would be the expected outcome, wouldn't it? Then given the multiple attacks and all the party brings to the table, straight up combat would favor party, especially since you chose to limit the monster's effectiveness
Not sure if the formula breaks down that cleanly; depending on the tactics employed, at a certain gap a BBEG is outputting enough damage to down party members fast enough to counteract action economy advantage. And most players’ bag of tricks are fairly limited at 6th level.
Despite the issue of not using Sunburst and therefore not playing the Animal Lord to its full ability, the poster does have a point. 5e2024 upped the damage that a party can inflict, but did not up the hp of the characters nor monsters. Quite frankly, with how much damage most characters can easily do now, they should have doubled the hp of all monsters.
Also keep in mind that those CRs are designed for characters made with point buy. If you use any other system, and/or hand out magic items, that system quickly breaks down even more than it already is.
I recently ran a one-shot for 2024 characters of 5th level. I've been DMing for over 40 yrs, I looked at what the charts said the group could handle and laughed (I then added much more to the encounters, and it worked out just right). They used point buy, and had no magic items, but if I had followed the encounter CR charts, it would have been a cake walk for them.
My suggestion for 5e2024... If using point buy, and no magic items, max out the hp of all enemies and consider adding 50% more of them.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.