Seems unlikely since Epic Boons fill the niche as rewards for meeting XP thresholds beyond 20th level. As was said, it’s unlikely they’ll want to build a more intricate system for a rarely used area of the game.
Anyone know if Wizards has plans for actual epic levels rules?
Most likely never. Epic came out at the height of gaming, so everyone can have their own deity powered player. You could still feel free to throw the Epic monsters at 17+ characters.
As far as people saying most never reach 20th level. It's typically the fault of the DM, not necessarily the players. If DM weren't so stingy about progress and actually used the DMG's suggestion how level progression per few sessions, it would be different.
As far as people saying most never reach 20th level. It's typically the fault of the DM, not necessarily the players. If DM weren't so stingy about progress and actually used the DMG's suggestion how level progression per few sessions, it would be different.
Epic rules are you keep playing your 20th level character, acquire epic boons, and eventually build ability scores up to 30 instead of the usual 20 limitation. A person can play epic rules a long time just working on those ASI's. I don't think there really needs to be more.
As far as people saying most never reach 20th level. It's typically the fault of the DM, not necessarily the players. If DM weren't so stingy about progress and actually used the DMG's suggestion how level progression per few sessions, it would be different.
Yea. That’s the problem. It has nothing to do with all but 2 published campaigns ending well before 20. Nor with stories coming to a natural conclusion, groups fizzling out, people moving away, trying the maintaining a regular schedule with a group of adults, a desire to try something in the steady stream of new character options, players wanting to take time to develop their characters, or high-level play often getting bogged down by the many things high level characters can do to the point that it can get kind of annoying. It’s mostly just because DM’s don’t level people fast enough.
In 3.x and 4e there were actual “epic” levels and progressions which made it far more interesting to play. 5e you have nothing, ok extra epic feats - whoopdedoo. Further,, unless your table has an “ old hand” DM or players (not most tables today presumably) then no one has actual experience with epic characters which can be a problem when designing/modifying campaigns to fit them. My old epic PCs are now my epic NPCs in my world, and they work better as NPCs than trying to find places to keep playing them as PCs.
I’ve heard some people say epic was great, and others say it was a hot mess, particularly for spellcasters. Either way, 5e was clearly looking to trim back on the secondary systems, and epic makes a pretty big chunk of pork relative to the part of the game 90%+ of the official content is designed for.
As a DM, if people talked less, and focused more on the goal of the adventure then it could be possible to have players reach higher level tiers. But those players need a motivation to keep their characters pushing into those higher levels.
Having to constantly toss bigger and badder bosses is one thing, and that’s a good thing. However, when a character has abilities that at lower levels equals the abilities of high ranked monsters, the problem is the DM.
Because a good DM would power limit the players and not give them the ability to challenge the main boss at level 10.( boss is epic levels, but player abilities match that equally.)
Power creep has set in with the rules of D&D and people are complaining they want more.
How about instead of getting seven different abilities at the same time every time you level up, you only get one or two options.
That way after playing for say 2 sessions a month you level up, how many sessions do you have to play to reach 20?
Do you have the time and ability to dump that time into that level of play?
Oh, you’d like to have that done it 3 months? Do you have a life outside of d&d? ( it’s not being rude, it’s a legitimate question because it sets the reality that the amount of time to compress 20 levels of gameplay into 80 days of real life time is not impossible, but it takes dedication effort and patience. Not something that’s easy to setup let alone execute and accomplish.)
And if I squeeze that 20 into that 3 months would you like me to shove the remaining 10 levels into a total of 6 months?
It’s possible, but also insane. I like my D&D to be like slow smoked BBQ not macdonals.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I think really, it just comes down to an arbitrary terminology of what “epic” is. It would be really easy to just say tier 4 is epic level, and call it good. I think it’s just the psychology of if there’s 20 levels, some people will always want more. There’s nothing wrong with that, of course. Just to me it seems like at some point it just becomes “these go to 11.”
If you want epic level rules, you are going to have to search homebrew.
WoTC are convinced that "no one goes to level 20" or whatever they said, and instead of making it an interesting prospect they just leave us to come up with something on our own. my fave easy solution is to just start taking levels in another class and have the DM brew up new monsters or buff up existing ones.
My current table plans to go to level 25 or 30, and just multiclass in related classes.
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He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
It doesn't have to be "no one", just "the vast majority of their players do not". If your table does it differently, that's great, but one table does not a majority segment make.
It doesn't have to be "no one", just "the vast majority of their players do not". If your table does it differently, that's great, but one table does not a majority segment make.
You missed the part where the " "no one goes to level 20" " was the opener to another related statement about how they wrote it off instead of incentivizing it through design.
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He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
As a DM, if people talked less, and focused more on the goal of the adventure then it could be possible to have players reach higher level tiers. But those players need a motivation to keep their characters pushing into those higher levels.
Having to constantly toss bigger and badder bosses is one thing, and that’s a good thing. However, when a character has abilities that at lower levels equals the abilities of high ranked monsters, the problem is the DM.
Because a good DM would power limit the players and not give them the ability to challenge the main boss at level 10.( boss is epic levels, but player abilities match that equally.)
Power creep has set in with the rules of D&D and people are complaining they want more.
How about instead of getting seven different abilities at the same time every time you level up, you only get one or two options.
That way after playing for say 2 sessions a month you level up, how many sessions do you have to play to reach 20?
Do you have the time and ability to dump that time into that level of play?
Oh, you’d like to have that done it 3 months? Do you have a life outside of d&d? ( it’s not being rude, it’s a legitimate question because it sets the reality that the amount of time to compress 20 levels of gameplay into 80 days of real life time is not impossible, but it takes dedication effort and patience. Not something that’s easy to setup let alone execute and accomplish.)
And if I squeeze that 20 into that 3 months would you like me to shove the remaining 10 levels into a total of 6 months?
It’s possible, but also insane. I like my D&D to be like slow smoked BBQ not macdonals.
I don't follow. Why are PCs getting the same abilities as bosses? Who are you talking about trying to get to level 20 in three months?
It doesn't have to be "no one", just "the vast majority of their players do not". If your table does it differently, that's great, but one table does not a majority segment make.
You missed the part where the " "no one goes to level 20" " was the opener to another related statement about how they wrote it off instead of incentivizing it through design.
Checked over the thread. I don't see anyone saying absolutely no one goes to level 20. Several people did point out that very few go to 20 and that hardly any published adventures account for it, but nothing that it simply doesn't happen at all.
If by Epic Levels you mean L21+, I feel like they need more monsters suitable for T5 first. Enough that we can spend campaigns in those tiers. The game works like a pyramid, if you want support for the top of the pyramid, you need to widen the lower parts first.
Once T5 becomes reasonably common and well supported, then we can talk about L21+. Right now, we have like two adventures, maybe three, that will take you to L20. We need to widen that part of the game first.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
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Anyone know if Wizards has plans for actual epic levels rules?
What is the point of them? Very few people even get to level 20 anyways, and if they did make epic levels, people would then want higher cr monsters.
Seems unlikely since Epic Boons fill the niche as rewards for meeting XP thresholds beyond 20th level. As was said, it’s unlikely they’ll want to build a more intricate system for a rarely used area of the game.
Most likely never. Epic came out at the height of gaming, so everyone can have their own deity powered player. You could still feel free to throw the Epic monsters at 17+ characters.
As far as people saying most never reach 20th level. It's typically the fault of the DM, not necessarily the players. If DM weren't so stingy about progress and actually used the DMG's suggestion how level progression per few sessions, it would be different.
Okay?
Epic rules are you keep playing your 20th level character, acquire epic boons, and eventually build ability scores up to 30 instead of the usual 20 limitation. A person can play epic rules a long time just working on those ASI's. I don't think there really needs to be more.
Yea. That’s the problem. It has nothing to do with all but 2 published campaigns ending well before 20. Nor with stories coming to a natural conclusion, groups fizzling out, people moving away, trying the maintaining a regular schedule with a group of adults, a desire to try something in the steady stream of new character options, players wanting to take time to develop their characters, or high-level play often getting bogged down by the many things high level characters can do to the point that it can get kind of annoying.
It’s mostly just because DM’s don’t level people fast enough.
In 3.x and 4e there were actual “epic” levels and progressions which made it far more interesting to play. 5e you have nothing, ok extra epic feats - whoopdedoo. Further,, unless your table has an “ old hand” DM or players (not most tables today presumably) then no one has actual experience with epic characters which can be a problem when designing/modifying campaigns to fit them. My old epic PCs are now my epic NPCs in my world, and they work better as NPCs than trying to find places to keep playing them as PCs.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I’ve heard some people say epic was great, and others say it was a hot mess, particularly for spellcasters. Either way, 5e was clearly looking to trim back on the secondary systems, and epic makes a pretty big chunk of pork relative to the part of the game 90%+ of the official content is designed for.
As a DM, if people talked less, and focused more on the goal of the adventure then it could be possible to have players reach higher level tiers.
But those players need a motivation to keep their characters pushing into those higher levels.
Having to constantly toss bigger and badder bosses is one thing, and that’s a good thing. However, when a character has abilities that at lower levels equals the abilities of high ranked monsters, the problem is the DM.
Because a good DM would power limit the players and not give them the ability to challenge the main boss at level 10.( boss is epic levels, but player abilities match that equally.)
Power creep has set in with the rules of D&D and people are complaining they want more.
How about instead of getting seven different abilities at the same time every time you level up, you only get one or two options.
That way after playing for say 2 sessions a month you level up, how many sessions do you have to play to reach 20?
Do you have the time and ability to dump that time into that level of play?
Oh, you’d like to have that done it 3 months? Do you have a life outside of d&d? ( it’s not being rude, it’s a legitimate question because it sets the reality that the amount of time to compress 20 levels of gameplay into 80 days of real life time is not impossible, but it takes dedication effort and patience. Not something that’s easy to setup let alone execute and accomplish.)
And if I squeeze that 20 into that 3 months would you like me to shove the remaining 10 levels into a total of 6 months?
It’s possible, but also insane. I like my D&D to be like slow smoked BBQ not macdonals.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I think really, it just comes down to an arbitrary terminology of what “epic” is. It would be really easy to just say tier 4 is epic level, and call it good. I think it’s just the psychology of if there’s 20 levels, some people will always want more. There’s nothing wrong with that, of course. Just to me it seems like at some point it just becomes “these go to 11.”
If you want epic level rules, you are going to have to search homebrew.
WoTC are convinced that "no one goes to level 20" or whatever they said, and instead of making it an interesting prospect they just leave us to come up with something on our own.
my fave easy solution is to just start taking levels in another class and have the DM brew up new monsters or buff up existing ones.
My current table plans to go to level 25 or 30, and just multiclass in related classes.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
It doesn't have to be "no one", just "the vast majority of their players do not". If your table does it differently, that's great, but one table does not a majority segment make.
You missed the part where the " "no one goes to level 20" " was the opener to another related statement about how they wrote it off instead of incentivizing it through design.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
I don't follow. Why are PCs getting the same abilities as bosses? Who are you talking about trying to get to level 20 in three months?
Checked over the thread. I don't see anyone saying absolutely no one goes to level 20. Several people did point out that very few go to 20 and that hardly any published adventures account for it, but nothing that it simply doesn't happen at all.
If by Epic Levels you mean L21+, I feel like they need more monsters suitable for T5 first. Enough that we can spend campaigns in those tiers. The game works like a pyramid, if you want support for the top of the pyramid, you need to widen the lower parts first.
Once T5 becomes reasonably common and well supported, then we can talk about L21+. Right now, we have like two adventures, maybe three, that will take you to L20. We need to widen that part of the game first.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.