Are you saying only Evoker Wizards should get Fireball, then?
Because they're the best at & most synergistic with it in the most cut & dry way?
Because it sounds like you're advocating for pigeonholing based on the valid but not universal optimizer playstyle.
I dunno - did I say that? I don't think I did.
What I think I've said - over and over and over and over again - is that:
- This class doesn't seem to be to be 'best' at anything. Everything it does, another class simply does way better.
- Also, it doesn't seem unique to me. And of course that's a variable, because there are a few unique things in there.
Really, it feels like everyone in this forum is pounding on me for not liking this class - yet no one seems to be able to pinpoint what it is this class is good for. Unless someone can do that, I ... just don't see any reason for changing my mind. The psionic classes of old were pretty awesome. Maybe overpowered, but certainly not boring or lacking. This class, to me, looks boring and lacking, and doesn't have the fun synergies I want from a psionic class.
Apparently that's a really unpopular point of view.
I get your point, but honestly, in D&D there isn't very much 'mechanical design space' for entirely new classes anyway. The best you can do is provide variations based on a theme or archetype. (Even the Ranger, to me, is a class that could have been implemented as a Fighter or Druid subclass!).
I think there is a high demand for a psychic class so that people can play out the fantasy of a character from Scanners or The Dead Zone (or Carrie :). And sure, you could play a Sorcerer and only pick 'psychic-style' spells, but that's never going to be quite the same. Hence - here we have a dedicated psychic class with some rules to give the 'psychic feel'.
I'm not saying this new Psion class is perfect, but I like the general idea. I get why they used the existing spellcasting system (why reinvent the wheel), but also would have preferred less emphasis on spells and more on the special Psionic Disciplines (a bit 'Warlock-y' perhaps, but that's what would give the class a new unique feel in my opinion).
Gotcha. Only classes that do things "best" are allowed to exist.
By what you've presented, Rangers should be purged from the game, no? Or, at least, have Hunter's Mark as a class feature & not as a spell, since Rangers are eclipsed by Druids & rogues in every other degree?
I'm trying to point out that unless you're for a purge of the Ranger/reducing it to nothing but unlimited Hunter's Mark, spell-wise, your logic doesn't cross-apply fully, & is unfairly biased against the UA because, as you've mentioned before, it isn't nostalgic enough for you compared to previous editions.
This is constructive criticism of your illogical biases regarding the UA as it is. PLENTY of people are angry like they were during the pre-pandemic Mystic frenzy, so your position isn't unpopular per se...it just doesn't feel logical to me.
If anything, there needs to be plenty of orange feedback suggesting fixes rather than Green or Red(Using the rating system the UA shows).
I personally feel like there's OODLES to fix, but I'm divorcing that from pointing out illogical pooh-poohing this entire idea on principle.
My key fix of choice being faster/automatic recharge of Psionic Energy Dice not limited to Short or Long Rests, due to the rate of consumption of the dice pool as it is suggested here in the actual UA.
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
If the psion doesn't need verbal or somatic components she may become very dangerous like a stealth+spellcaster class. Have you played anytime a game like Assasin's Creed? Now imagine an infiltrator like Solid Snake with psionic powers. Other example using videogames? Let's imagine a videogame like Resident Evil or Evil Within where the stealth is the key to survive, and then a psion can do things other spellcaster couldn't without somatic or verbal components. Do you know the videogame trilogy "Lucius"? The main character had got a relatively low-level telekinetic powers but in the right mode these could cause serious effects.
The psion can't be only a sorcerer's clone. Before in 3.5 at least the power points helped to make a difference but with the spell slots I demand some page for optional rules.
The psion needs to be different in the background/lore/fluff and in the gameplay style. Some players want their psions like D&D jedis.
Let's try it with some other example. Let's imagine were are in 2026 and there is a new isekai anime. One of the members of the adventure guilder teorically isn't a spellcaster. In the fight against the monsters supposedly she does nothing except defend herself but when she is present there is "good luck", like a fall of an object, or the enemy is dazed. Then several episodes later we discover she is a psion. That "good luck" was using telepathy or telekinesis when nobody is realising.
* I miss the psionic disciplines, like psicoportation or psicometabolism.
I get your point, but honestly, in D&D there isn't very much 'mechanical design space' for entirely new classes anyway.
Agreed, but the 3e psion was it's own thing, was clearly best at some stuff .. and so on. You're right, the cracks are a bit tight to fit in an entirely new class, and to make it unique and have it's own brand of thing that it's best at.
I'm one of those who'd love to play a psionic class. My problem is that this psion doesn't scratch that itch =)
Gotcha. Only classes that do things "best" are allowed to exist.
By what you've presented, Rangers should be purged from the game, no?
I've said nothing of the sort - but maybe I should add a few words. I'd say rangers are the best archers in the game, so no. But I never said every class needs to be best at something. I do fail to see a reason to introduce new classes that are weak at whatever they do best.
The rest of your post is full of self-invented assumptions that are just wrong. So ... I don't know how to reply to that other than to ... not.
If the psion doesn't need verbal or somatic components she may become very dangerous like a stealth+spellcaster class. Have you played anytime a game like Assasin's Creed? Now imagine an infiltrator like Solid Snake with psionic powers. Other example using videogames? Let's imagine a videogame like Resident Evil or Evil Within where the stealth is the key to survive, and then a psion can do things other spellcaster couldn't without somatic or verbal components. Do you know the videogame trilogy "Lucius"? The main character had got a relatively low-level telekinetic powers but in the right mode these could cause serious effects.
The psion can't be only a sorcerer's clone. Before in 3.5 at least the power points helped to make a difference but with the spell slots I demand some page for optional rules.
The psion needs to be different in the background/lore/fluff and in the gameplay style. Some players want their psions like D&D jedis.
Let's try it with some other example. Let's imagine were are in 2026 and there is a new isekai anime. One of the members of the adventure guilder teorically isn't a spellcaster. In the fight against the monsters supposedly she does nothing except defend herself but when she is present there is "good luck", like a fall of an object, or the enemy is dazed. Then several episodes later we discover she is a psion. That "good luck" was using telepathy or telekinesis when nobody is realising.
* I miss the psionic disciplines, like psicoportation or psicometabolism.
This is the best reply so far this entire thread: Yes, you're right. A stealth caster could work. I'm not saying that I'm not sold on the psion class, and I'd have to have a look to see again if there's any synergies in that direction I like.
I already play a Arcane Trickster rogue, so the style has some appeal. But it needs to be ... like, for me to be happy it needs to bring something besides being able to cast a surprise round spell from stealth.
But it's not something I'd thought of, and it's definitely something it could be better at than any other class. Or, not really, a wizard could still be a better stealth full caster if one put in the effort. I guess. Still.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I need to ask:On the UA Feedback Survey, are you all going to give Orange or Red feedback? Because I don't think this deserves a Red. But most of the negativity web-wide indicates another Red Feedback storm is brewing, & this people need to be more careful when publicly posting across the web about Psion, UA, & things in general, since they don't know how many people will see destructive text & convert it to Red feedback, which, as I have stated before, amounts to "drop it", not "do it again" or "I don't care about/for it".
I plan to give Orange feedback to most of the UA, due to my playtesting having found high highs and low lows with this UA.
I advise people mentally prepare to do the same.
(Also, fun fact:Hasbo approved of WotC trying Psionics Wizard & Psionics Sorcerer(Which wasn't the same as Aberrant Mind Sorc in execution or theming at all...it was actually dice-based & everything) before, & even playtested some "Build a bear"-esque Psionic feats & spells that would have worked like pre-3.5 Psionics. Those aspects of those UAs got blasted for not being Mystic & not being 100% exactly like the Psionics of old, too, because a lot of those UAs relied on dice size varying wildly, or, in the case of the Wizard, not being "better" than an Evoker at blasting(despite power creep being argued constantly to be a bad thing)....& Tasha's Mind Whip emerged unscathed, to the detriment of many DMs.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
I need to ask:On the UA Feedback Survey, are you all going to give Orange or Red feedback? Because I don't think this deserves a Red. But most of the negativity web-wide indicates another Red Feedback storm is brewing, & this people need to be more careful when publicly posting across the web about Psion, UA, & things in general, since they don't know how many people will see destructive text & convert it to Red feedback, which, as I have stated before, amounts to "drop it", not "do it again" or "I don't care about/for it".
I plan to give Orange feedback to most of the UA, due to my playtesting having found high highs and low lows with this UA.
I advise people mentally prepare to do the same.
(Also, fun fact:Hasbo approved of WotC trying Psionics Wizard & Psionics Sorcerer(Which wasn't the same as Aberrant Mind Sorc in execution or theming at all...it was actually dice-based & everything) before, & even playtested some "Build a bear"-esque Psionic feats & spells that would have worked like pre-3.5 Psionics. Those aspects of those UAs got blasted for not being Mystic & not being 100% exactly like the Psionics of old, too, because a lot of those UAs relied on dice size varying wildly, or, in the case of the Wizard, not being "better" than an Evoker at blasting(despite power creep being argued constantly to be a bad thing)....& Tasha's Mind Whip emerged unscathed, to the detriment of many DMs.)
There's plenty of positivity towards the Psion outside the echo chamber. And while the Mystic comparisons are inevitable, this is nowhere near the big swing that was either.
At the end of the day if WotC decides not to move forward with it, it'll hardly be the end of the world. Just take it easy and have fun with the UA process 🙂 I still remember a time when we got no say in their design at all.
In case it matters (which it doesn't), Yellow is what will allow me to leave the most written feedback so a mix of that and green is what I'll be doing.
In case it matters (which it doesn't), Yellow is what will allow me to leave the most written feedback so a mix of that and green is what I'll be doing.
This is no longer the case. I just did the Survey and it allowed comments on all the options (Green, Yellow, and Red)
I hope some space for optional rules. At least if something was published in D&D-Beyond article as an article shouldn't be a great effort. At least the psionic power points system should be easy to be adapted.
In case it matters (which it doesn't), Yellow is what will allow me to leave the most written feedback so a mix of that and green is what I'll be doing.
This is no longer the case. I just did the Survey and it allowed comments on all the options (Green, Yellow, and Red)
Thanks, that helps. That bumped up my green selections considerably.
Did my bit. Took a lot of points raised here(when reasonable), added my own concerns & suggestions, & it went well.
I did forget to suggest that the Metamorph's Organic Weapons count as Magical, so if that's brought up, I'd appreciate it.
Magical weapon damage isn’t really a thing as of ‘24. There’s no resistance/immunity to nonmagical PSB in the new MM.
Adding to this, the Metamorph can swap any of those weapons from BPS to Psychic whenever it matters. And the Viscera Launcher deals Acid. That's plenty of options for most fights.
Maybe the class with psionic spells should use the name "mystic", and a second class could be close to the 2e-3e version.
I bet we should see a future UA with the PC species: fraals, dromites, shardminds, synads, xephs, elans and maenads, and more subclasses. Once I asked the AI Grok and this suggested the soulbreaker, something like a psionic barbarian with elemental traits.
Other suggestion by me is the psion uses "spell slots" because really is "spending personal dorjes (or loads of psionic tatoos)", like if these working like scrolls, potions or other single-use magic item.
* Could a tatoo to work like a cognizance crystal? (a "battery" of power points)
I cannot see how this class does anything - with the possible exception of not using material components - that another class doesn't do better. Much better. But if the reply is the thing about material components - the discussion needs go no further. I can concede that it does that. Why that would matter will still be beyond me, but certainly it's true. It does that.
Anything you can do in D&D with any class there is a Warlock Subclass that can do it better. If you are looking to sink an idea because it doesn't do anything better than another class, then we should all play Warlocks.
Or, we look at what each class does differently, and enjoy the distinct variations. Psionic Classes have always brought something unique to the game. This iteration is beautiful in it's simplicity, and distinct identity.
I think it has some minor flaws that are easy to adjust for an official release, but even if the final release is what we see, I can work with this.
I think it needs a few more Cantrips, and I think it needs access to the Shield Spell. I think most of the subclasses are useable, but one of them is kind of pointless. But then the recent new Artificer subclass had the same dumb flavor of uselessness. Someone really wants a teleporter character.
That said, it's not weak, but not over powered like Wizard and Sorcerer. (Not adding Warlock to my OP caster list, as what makes them OP is their Hybrid Caster/Martial design and Jack of all trades, Master of all. Ironically just like the Mystic the last UA psionic class)
What warlock subclass makes a better tank than a barbarian?
What warlock subclass makes a better tank than a barbarian?
This question depends quite a bit on how you define "better tank," but I'd go with Hexblade as it gets armor proficiency + the Shield spell natively and hasn't been updated yet. But the overarching point, that throwing a class out because another class can beat it at something is silly, stands. Classes are combinations of abilities and concepts, so measuring them with one particular yardstick (like "better tank") doesn't add value.
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I get your point, but honestly, in D&D there isn't very much 'mechanical design space' for entirely new classes anyway. The best you can do is provide variations based on a theme or archetype. (Even the Ranger, to me, is a class that could have been implemented as a Fighter or Druid subclass!).
I think there is a high demand for a psychic class so that people can play out the fantasy of a character from Scanners or The Dead Zone (or Carrie :). And sure, you could play a Sorcerer and only pick 'psychic-style' spells, but that's never going to be quite the same. Hence - here we have a dedicated psychic class with some rules to give the 'psychic feel'.
I'm not saying this new Psion class is perfect, but I like the general idea. I get why they used the existing spellcasting system (why reinvent the wheel), but also would have preferred less emphasis on spells and more on the special Psionic Disciplines (a bit 'Warlock-y' perhaps, but that's what would give the class a new unique feel in my opinion).
Gotcha. Only classes that do things "best" are allowed to exist.
By what you've presented, Rangers should be purged from the game, no? Or, at least, have Hunter's Mark as a class feature & not as a spell, since Rangers are eclipsed by Druids & rogues in every other degree?
I'm trying to point out that unless you're for a purge of the Ranger/reducing it to nothing but unlimited Hunter's Mark, spell-wise, your logic doesn't cross-apply fully, & is unfairly biased against the UA because, as you've mentioned before, it isn't nostalgic enough for you compared to previous editions.
This is constructive criticism of your illogical biases regarding the UA as it is. PLENTY of people are angry like they were during the pre-pandemic Mystic frenzy, so your position isn't unpopular per se...it just doesn't feel logical to me.
If anything, there needs to be plenty of orange feedback suggesting fixes rather than Green or Red(Using the rating system the UA shows).
I personally feel like there's OODLES to fix, but I'm divorcing that from pointing out illogical pooh-poohing this entire idea on principle.
My key fix of choice being faster/automatic recharge of Psionic Energy Dice not limited to Short or Long Rests, due to the rate of consumption of the dice pool as it is suggested here in the actual UA.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
If the psion doesn't need verbal or somatic components she may become very dangerous like a stealth+spellcaster class. Have you played anytime a game like Assasin's Creed? Now imagine an infiltrator like Solid Snake with psionic powers. Other example using videogames? Let's imagine a videogame like Resident Evil or Evil Within where the stealth is the key to survive, and then a psion can do things other spellcaster couldn't without somatic or verbal components. Do you know the videogame trilogy "Lucius"? The main character had got a relatively low-level telekinetic powers but in the right mode these could cause serious effects.
The psion can't be only a sorcerer's clone. Before in 3.5 at least the power points helped to make a difference but with the spell slots I demand some page for optional rules.
The psion needs to be different in the background/lore/fluff and in the gameplay style. Some players want their psions like D&D jedis.
Let's try it with some other example. Let's imagine were are in 2026 and there is a new isekai anime. One of the members of the adventure guilder teorically isn't a spellcaster. In the fight against the monsters supposedly she does nothing except defend herself but when she is present there is "good luck", like a fall of an object, or the enemy is dazed. Then several episodes later we discover she is a psion. That "good luck" was using telepathy or telekinesis when nobody is realising.
* I miss the psionic disciplines, like psicoportation or psicometabolism.
Agreed, but the 3e psion was it's own thing, was clearly best at some stuff .. and so on. You're right, the cracks are a bit tight to fit in an entirely new class, and to make it unique and have it's own brand of thing that it's best at.
I'm one of those who'd love to play a psionic class. My problem is that this psion doesn't scratch that itch =)
I've said nothing of the sort - but maybe I should add a few words. I'd say rangers are the best archers in the game, so no. But I never said every class needs to be best at something. I do fail to see a reason to introduce new classes that are weak at whatever they do best.
The rest of your post is full of self-invented assumptions that are just wrong. So ... I don't know how to reply to that other than to ... not.
This is the best reply so far this entire thread: Yes, you're right. A stealth caster could work. I'm not saying that I'm not sold on the psion class, and I'd have to have a look to see again if there's any synergies in that direction I like.
I already play a Arcane Trickster rogue, so the style has some appeal. But it needs to be ... like, for me to be happy it needs to bring something besides being able to cast a surprise round spell from stealth.
But it's not something I'd thought of, and it's definitely something it could be better at than any other class. Or, not really, a wizard could still be a better stealth full caster if one put in the effort. I guess. Still.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I plan to give Orange feedback to most of the UA, due to my playtesting having found high highs and low lows with this UA.
I advise people mentally prepare to do the same.
(Also, fun fact:Hasbo approved of WotC trying Psionics Wizard & Psionics Sorcerer(Which wasn't the same as Aberrant Mind Sorc in execution or theming at all...it was actually dice-based & everything) before, & even playtested some "Build a bear"-esque Psionic feats & spells that would have worked like pre-3.5 Psionics. Those aspects of those UAs got blasted for not being Mystic & not being 100% exactly like the Psionics of old, too, because a lot of those UAs relied on dice size varying wildly, or, in the case of the Wizard, not being "better" than an Evoker at blasting(despite power creep being argued constantly to be a bad thing)....& Tasha's Mind Whip emerged unscathed, to the detriment of many DMs.)
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Nostalgia glasses are strong with this. Kalashtar Psion was my absolute favorite race/class in 4e.
That's what I'm getting from their posts too, which is why I've ceased to bother.
There's plenty of positivity towards the Psion outside the echo chamber. And while the Mystic comparisons are inevitable, this is nowhere near the big swing that was either.
At the end of the day if WotC decides not to move forward with it, it'll hardly be the end of the world. Just take it easy and have fun with the UA process 🙂 I still remember a time when we got no say in their design at all.
In case it matters (which it doesn't), Yellow is what will allow me to leave the most written feedback so a mix of that and green is what I'll be doing.
This is no longer the case. I just did the Survey and it allowed comments on all the options (Green, Yellow, and Red)
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Did my bit. Took a lot of points raised here(when reasonable), added my own concerns & suggestions, & it went well.
I did forget to suggest that the Metamorph's Organic Weapons count as Magical, so if that's brought up, I'd appreciate it.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Magical weapon damage isn’t really a thing as of ‘24. There’s no resistance/immunity to nonmagical PSB in the new MM.
I voted most stuff as green, and the exceptions (including the class as a whole) as yellow. Mostly, it's fine, and the bad stuff is mostly just meh.
I did my part, mostly green, with a few yellows mostly in Spell lists, and cantrips.
I did the class mostly yellow and the subclasses mostly green.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I hope some space for optional rules. At least if something was published in D&D-Beyond article as an article shouldn't be a great effort. At least the psionic power points system should be easy to be adapted.
Thanks, that helps. That bumped up my green selections considerably.
Adding to this, the Metamorph can swap any of those weapons from BPS to Psychic whenever it matters. And the Viscera Launcher deals Acid. That's plenty of options for most fights.
I've liked the class due to how it plays and how it multiclases with other classes
Maybe the class with psionic spells should use the name "mystic", and a second class could be close to the 2e-3e version.
I bet we should see a future UA with the PC species: fraals, dromites, shardminds, synads, xephs, elans and maenads, and more subclasses. Once I asked the AI Grok and this suggested the soulbreaker, something like a psionic barbarian with elemental traits.
Other suggestion by me is the psion uses "spell slots" because really is "spending personal dorjes (or loads of psionic tatoos)", like if these working like scrolls, potions or other single-use magic item.
* Could a tatoo to work like a cognizance crystal? (a "battery" of power points)
What warlock subclass makes a better tank than a barbarian?
This question depends quite a bit on how you define "better tank," but I'd go with Hexblade as it gets armor proficiency + the Shield spell natively and hasn't been updated yet. But the overarching point, that throwing a class out because another class can beat it at something is silly, stands. Classes are combinations of abilities and concepts, so measuring them with one particular yardstick (like "better tank") doesn't add value.