To me, I think a gish subclass requires a few things:
1. The ability to cast spells in some capacity, with at least a subset for combat. 2. The ability to deal decent damage in melee* with a weapon, which will usually entail some sort of "extra attack" feature. 3. The ability to survive in melee*, in the form of armor proficiencies, harrier tactics (get in, get out), or readily available THP/AC boost.
*I don't really consider ranged martial combat gishy enough. It's just ranged spells without the slots, mechanically.
So, why don't I think sorcerers will ever get a true gish subclass? Quickened. Give them any form of extra attack and they become a one-person offensive army due to the ease at which they can cast their most powerful spells as BAs on top of their extra melee attacks. And it would have to be the extra attack. If you only gave them survivability, there would be no incentive to get into melee range and it becomes a dead feature most of the time. Just extra attack and the character is always dancing on a knife's edge as a d6 HP, unarmored glass nuke.
Are my gish criteria too strict? Not strict enough? Do you think a proper sorcerer gish subclass could work with quickened in the mix? How would you go about it?
When 5.24 Draconic Sorc first dropped I definitely felt that it was in the running (15 base AC from a standard array without sacrificing CON, +1 HP/lvl, resistance to an elemental damage type). I got a lot of pushback for that view, which is part of the reason I eventually ended up making this thread (that and the endless discussions of how Nick works and me thinking how awesome it would be for a Sorc to get Weapon Mastery to free up that BA for a sweet quickened fireball on top of some juicy attacks from a "true gish" subclass). It seems the consensus is that draconic is not quite enough to make it into gish territory. Perhaps it's that things like True Strike and Shillelagh don't really "feel" like how a gish should melee?
I never did get the opportunity to try it out myself, but I feel that it would be quite good for a couple rounds (eating up spell slots for shield and quickened attack spells like crazy) and then be tapped out for the day.
The reason I feel that sorcerer (even dragonic sorcerer) will not be that Gish, is that Melee damage needs to be better than Spell damage from your available cantrips, which is a difficult ask.
For a sorcerer, let's assume you take either a Great Club, Spear or Quarterstaff for 1d8 damage (two handed).
At level 1-4 you do 1d8+CHA CHA damage (~7.5) with true strike, firebolt does 1d10 (~5.5). Melee does do more damage
Level 5-11 you do 1d8+1d6+CHA damage (~13) with true strike, firebolt does 2d10 damage (~11), questionable which does more damage
If choosing fire elemental affinity, Level 6-11 you do the same melee damage, Firebolt does 2d10+CHA damage (~15), firebolt does easily more damage
Level 11-16 you do 1d8+2d6+CHA damage (~16.5), Firebolt does 3d10 Damage (~16.5), or 3d10+CHA damage (~21.5) if fire affinity, firebolt does more damage
Level 17 you do 1d8+3d6+CHA damage (~20), Firebolt does 4d10 damage (~22), or 4d10+CHA damage (~27) if fire affinity, firebolt does more damage
In the early game the Gish looks like it works but by mid game, it's falling behind, it doesn't justify going into melee range instead of staying at range. The thing about a Gish is it needs to justify why it goes into melee and it needs to be able to be able to survive in melee range which is more than just AC. I will say it's possible to beat out firebolt (without affinity) using magical weapons but that is very much just barely more damage now that a sorcerer could get a Wand of the War Mage.
--- NICK
For the mention of Nick, just getting the weapon mastery wouldn't be enough, Nick just shifts the BA of the Light property to being part of the attack action but at no point in the above do you actually ever take the attack action. So you can't cast True Strike and then benefit from Nick, in fact if you tried to use the attack action with Nick, you'd do less damage than just casting True Strike.
As for AC, CHA+DEX+10 AC is still not great, you can add Bracers of Defense to make that a CHA+DEX+10+2 AC but you're still dealing with a very small HP pool, only +1 higher per level than basic sorcerer or wizard.
--- Comparison to Warlock/Bard
This all said this appears to be in-line with Warlock, except warlock gets multiple sources of temporary HP that they can turn too and different subclasses each offer some substantial survival options on top of default warlock, a Fiend warlock is getting more Temporary HP still, while an Archfey warlock is misty stepping in/out of danger and can even misty step as reaction when taking damage and the celestial warlock gets (self-)healing and also at level 10 gets even more temporary HP; It is really only GOO that isn't also improving warlock GISH builds. On top of all of this you then have Pact of the Blade that does many things for you but also allows you to use your weapon as a spell casting focus and gives you proficiency with it.
Alternatively you can compare this to Valor Bard, Valor Bard at level 6 does get extra attack, which additionally allows switching 1 attack for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action while also giving martial weapon, medium armor and shield proficiency and additionally the ability to use your weapon as a spell focus.
The one thing I will note in sorcerer's favor is the Shield Spell, Warlock doesn't get access to it, but it's going to burn spell slots too fast to stay in melee, considering you also need to burn spell slots to refill the sorcery points you're using to use quicken spell. Resource wise it is a losing game.
---- TL;DR
A Gish needs two things
A) A reason to go into melee
B) the ability to survive in melee
In the case of Dragonic Sorcerer, you don't have either while a College of Valor Bard or a Fiend/Archfey/Celestial Warlock with Pact of the blade, do have the ability to survive in melee and the methods to benefit from doing so.
Following the above, I am going to put together a pure sorcerer build that gets you as close as possible. Notably with Multiclass it is possible to Gish Sorcerer with any other charisma caster (Bard, Paladin or Warlock) but I feel this thread is about a pure sorcerer so no multiclass in this.
If we had full custom then we would look at getting Magic initiate (Druid) since Shillelagh via charisma is a huge improvement but lucky is good for advantage on saving throws, surviving in melee is more than just AC and so lucky helps cover this gap a bit.
ASI: STR 10, DEX 13, CON 14+1, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 15+2
Subclass: Dragonic Sorcery
Pretty simple choice, none of the others really do that much for your AC or HP, in melee you will need AC and HP.
Level 4 Feat: Warcaster (+Charisma)
We need +4 Charisma modifier, this gives it and has a ton of other advantages, as a sorcerer we also already have constitution saving throw proficiency.
Level 8 Feat: Polearm Master (+Dexterity)
Rounds out that Dexterity to a +2 for 1 more AC, gives an additional reaction and also when we don't have enough sorcery points, there is still a bonus action attack.
Level 12 Feat: ASI (+Charisma, +Charisma)
Just straight up get our +5, we don't want to hold back on this
Level 16 Feat: Speedy (+Constitution)
Get that +3 constitution and an additional 10 foot of movement, when we run, we can run.
Level 19: Boon of Dimensional Travel (+Charisma)
There are numerous good choices here, why Dimensional Travel? Well your biggest weakness is no longer such a big weakness. After you take the attack or use the magic action you can teleport 30 foot away, you move into melee and then are no longer in melee. The other two potential choices are Boon of Combat Prowess making you miss a lot less or Boon of Fortitude for More HP and heal for more (+3). The others aren't really worth considering but not going into a break down of those.
---
This is about the best pure sorcerer build that I can conceive, naturally there are multiclass options that do far better.
--- Warlock
Warlock 1 gives pact of the blade (already a huge advantage) and pact magic slots
Warlock 2 gives Fiendish Vigor and another invocation
Warlock 3 gives Archfey, Celestial or Fiend subclasses, all very good options for GISH.
Warlock 5 gives Thristing Blade & Eldritch Smite
--- Paladin
Paladin 1 gives Weapon Mastery, Lay-on-Hands and a few smite spells (useful for if you crit on your attack action), Martial weapon proficiency, medium armour proficiency, shield proficiency & some spell slot progression
Paladin 2 gives a Fighting Style
Paladin 3 gives Oath of Devotion or Oath of Vengeance fighting styles, their channel divinity options are absurdly good
Paladin 5 gives Extra Attack (you can easily do more damage with this then a casting of True Strike)
Paladin 6 gives Aura of Protection (insanely good)
--- Fighter
Fighter 1 gives Fighting Style, Weapon Mastery, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Medium Armour Proficiency, Second Wind
Fighter 2 gives Action Surge
Fighter 3* gives battle master and champion
*Eldritch Knight might sound good being a spell caster but it's spreading ability scores too thin, your only benefit is some spell slot progression and barely any of that.
Fighter 5 gives Extra Attack
Fighter 6 an additional ASI
--- Bard
Bard 1 gives full spell slot progression, Bardic Inspiration is still an option for BA when you don't have sorcery points or prior to heading into melee.
Bard 3 gives you College of Valor - gain Martial Weapon, Medium Armor & Shield Proficiency, Combat Inspiration helps others but not yourself still more use of your bonus action
Bard 6 You can extra attack - you can switch one attack for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action... this is what you'd go for and the investment cost is very high. Your non-cantrip melee attack will be using strength or dexterity... so it's going to miss a lot and do subpar damage.
===
I have arranged this in terms of what I believe is best (warlock) to worst (bard) but each of these should Gish better than a pure sorcerer, I have considered benefits up to level 6 for each. Ultimate a Pure sorcerer build, optimised for 2024, is still very much behind where it needs to be, to be a Gish. It can be done via multiclass and I'd most likely recommend Warlock for that.
To me, I think a gish subclass requires a few things:
1. The ability to cast spells in some capacity, with at least a subset for combat.
2. The ability to deal decent damage in melee* with a weapon, which will usually entail some sort of "extra attack" feature.
3. The ability to survive in melee*, in the form of armor proficiencies, harrier tactics (get in, get out), or readily available THP/AC boost.
*I don't really consider ranged martial combat gishy enough. It's just ranged spells without the slots, mechanically.
So, why don't I think sorcerers will ever get a true gish subclass? Quickened. Give them any form of extra attack and they become a one-person offensive army due to the ease at which they can cast their most powerful spells as BAs on top of their extra melee attacks. And it would have to be the extra attack. If you only gave them survivability, there would be no incentive to get into melee range and it becomes a dead feature most of the time. Just extra attack and the character is always dancing on a knife's edge as a d6 HP, unarmored glass nuke.
Are my gish criteria too strict? Not strict enough? Do you think a proper sorcerer gish subclass could work with quickened in the mix? How would you go about it?
I mean, you can get a sorcerer gish right now. A draconic sorcerer with quickened spell and true strike seems to match all your requirements.
When 5.24 Draconic Sorc first dropped I definitely felt that it was in the running (15 base AC from a standard array without sacrificing CON, +1 HP/lvl, resistance to an elemental damage type). I got a lot of pushback for that view, which is part of the reason I eventually ended up making this thread (that and the endless discussions of how Nick works and me thinking how awesome it would be for a Sorc to get Weapon Mastery to free up that BA for a sweet quickened fireball on top of some juicy attacks from a "true gish" subclass). It seems the consensus is that draconic is not quite enough to make it into gish territory. Perhaps it's that things like True Strike and Shillelagh don't really "feel" like how a gish should melee?
I never did get the opportunity to try it out myself, but I feel that it would be quite good for a couple rounds (eating up spell slots for shield and quickened attack spells like crazy) and then be tapped out for the day.
The reason I feel that sorcerer (even dragonic sorcerer) will not be that Gish, is that Melee damage needs to be better than Spell damage from your available cantrips, which is a difficult ask.
For a sorcerer, let's assume you take either a Great Club, Spear or Quarterstaff for 1d8 damage (two handed).
At level 1-4 you do 1d8+CHA CHA damage (~7.5) with true strike, firebolt does 1d10 (~5.5). Melee does do more damage
Level 5-11 you do 1d8+1d6+CHA damage (~13) with true strike, firebolt does 2d10 damage (~11), questionable which does more damage
If choosing fire elemental affinity, Level 6-11 you do the same melee damage, Firebolt does 2d10+CHA damage (~15), firebolt does easily more damage
Level 11-16 you do 1d8+2d6+CHA damage (~16.5), Firebolt does 3d10 Damage (~16.5), or 3d10+CHA damage (~21.5) if fire affinity, firebolt does more damage
Level 17 you do 1d8+3d6+CHA damage (~20), Firebolt does 4d10 damage (~22), or 4d10+CHA damage (~27) if fire affinity, firebolt does more damage
In the early game the Gish looks like it works but by mid game, it's falling behind, it doesn't justify going into melee range instead of staying at range. The thing about a Gish is it needs to justify why it goes into melee and it needs to be able to be able to survive in melee range which is more than just AC. I will say it's possible to beat out firebolt (without affinity) using magical weapons but that is very much just barely more damage now that a sorcerer could get a Wand of the War Mage.
--- NICK
For the mention of Nick, just getting the weapon mastery wouldn't be enough, Nick just shifts the BA of the Light property to being part of the attack action but at no point in the above do you actually ever take the attack action. So you can't cast True Strike and then benefit from Nick, in fact if you tried to use the attack action with Nick, you'd do less damage than just casting True Strike.
As for AC, CHA+DEX+10 AC is still not great, you can add Bracers of Defense to make that a CHA+DEX+10+2 AC but you're still dealing with a very small HP pool, only +1 higher per level than basic sorcerer or wizard.
--- Comparison to Warlock/Bard
This all said this appears to be in-line with Warlock, except warlock gets multiple sources of temporary HP that they can turn too and different subclasses each offer some substantial survival options on top of default warlock, a Fiend warlock is getting more Temporary HP still, while an Archfey warlock is misty stepping in/out of danger and can even misty step as reaction when taking damage and the celestial warlock gets (self-)healing and also at level 10 gets even more temporary HP; It is really only GOO that isn't also improving warlock GISH builds. On top of all of this you then have Pact of the Blade that does many things for you but also allows you to use your weapon as a spell casting focus and gives you proficiency with it.
Alternatively you can compare this to Valor Bard, Valor Bard at level 6 does get extra attack, which additionally allows switching 1 attack for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action while also giving martial weapon, medium armor and shield proficiency and additionally the ability to use your weapon as a spell focus.
The one thing I will note in sorcerer's favor is the Shield Spell, Warlock doesn't get access to it, but it's going to burn spell slots too fast to stay in melee, considering you also need to burn spell slots to refill the sorcery points you're using to use quicken spell. Resource wise it is a losing game.
---- TL;DR
A Gish needs two things
A) A reason to go into melee
B) the ability to survive in melee
In the case of Dragonic Sorcerer, you don't have either while a College of Valor Bard or a Fiend/Archfey/Celestial Warlock with Pact of the blade, do have the ability to survive in melee and the methods to benefit from doing so.
Following the above, I am going to put together a pure sorcerer build that gets you as close as possible. Notably with Multiclass it is possible to Gish Sorcerer with any other charisma caster (Bard, Paladin or Warlock) but I feel this thread is about a pure sorcerer so no multiclass in this.
Background: Merchant (Charisma +2, Constitution +1)
We need Charisma and want either Constitution or Dexterity (preferable constitution). This gives:
Charlatan (Skilled), Entertainer (Musician), Hermit (Healer), Merchant (Lucky), Wayfarer (Lucky)
If we had full custom then we would look at getting Magic initiate (Druid) since Shillelagh via charisma is a huge improvement but lucky is good for advantage on saving throws, surviving in melee is more than just AC and so lucky helps cover this gap a bit.
ASI: STR 10, DEX 13, CON 14+1, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 15+2
Subclass: Dragonic Sorcery
Pretty simple choice, none of the others really do that much for your AC or HP, in melee you will need AC and HP.
Level 4 Feat: Warcaster (+Charisma)
We need +4 Charisma modifier, this gives it and has a ton of other advantages, as a sorcerer we also already have constitution saving throw proficiency.
Level 8 Feat: Polearm Master (+Dexterity)
Rounds out that Dexterity to a +2 for 1 more AC, gives an additional reaction and also when we don't have enough sorcery points, there is still a bonus action attack.
Level 12 Feat: ASI (+Charisma, +Charisma)
Just straight up get our +5, we don't want to hold back on this
Level 16 Feat: Speedy (+Constitution)
Get that +3 constitution and an additional 10 foot of movement, when we run, we can run.
Level 19: Boon of Dimensional Travel (+Charisma)
There are numerous good choices here, why Dimensional Travel? Well your biggest weakness is no longer such a big weakness. After you take the attack or use the magic action you can teleport 30 foot away, you move into melee and then are no longer in melee. The other two potential choices are Boon of Combat Prowess making you miss a lot less or Boon of Fortitude for More HP and heal for more (+3). The others aren't really worth considering but not going into a break down of those.
---
This is about the best pure sorcerer build that I can conceive, naturally there are multiclass options that do far better.
--- Warlock
Warlock 1 gives pact of the blade (already a huge advantage) and pact magic slots
Warlock 2 gives Fiendish Vigor and another invocation
Warlock 3 gives Archfey, Celestial or Fiend subclasses, all very good options for GISH.
Warlock 5 gives Thristing Blade & Eldritch Smite
--- Paladin
Paladin 1 gives Weapon Mastery, Lay-on-Hands and a few smite spells (useful for if you crit on your attack action), Martial weapon proficiency, medium armour proficiency, shield proficiency & some spell slot progression
Paladin 2 gives a Fighting Style
Paladin 3 gives Oath of Devotion or Oath of Vengeance fighting styles, their channel divinity options are absurdly good
Paladin 5 gives Extra Attack (you can easily do more damage with this then a casting of True Strike)
Paladin 6 gives Aura of Protection (insanely good)
--- Fighter
Fighter 1 gives Fighting Style, Weapon Mastery, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Medium Armour Proficiency, Second Wind
Fighter 2 gives Action Surge
Fighter 3* gives battle master and champion
*Eldritch Knight might sound good being a spell caster but it's spreading ability scores too thin, your only benefit is some spell slot progression and barely any of that.
Fighter 5 gives Extra Attack
Fighter 6 an additional ASI
--- Bard
Bard 1 gives full spell slot progression, Bardic Inspiration is still an option for BA when you don't have sorcery points or prior to heading into melee.
Bard 3 gives you College of Valor - gain Martial Weapon, Medium Armor & Shield Proficiency, Combat Inspiration helps others but not yourself still more use of your bonus action
Bard 6 You can extra attack - you can switch one attack for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action... this is what you'd go for and the investment cost is very high. Your non-cantrip melee attack will be using strength or dexterity... so it's going to miss a lot and do subpar damage.
===
I have arranged this in terms of what I believe is best (warlock) to worst (bard) but each of these should Gish better than a pure sorcerer, I have considered benefits up to level 6 for each. Ultimate a Pure sorcerer build, optimised for 2024, is still very much behind where it needs to be, to be a Gish. It can be done via multiclass and I'd most likely recommend Warlock for that.