How would you balance this weapon for an adventure going up to level 10? It's a dagger that allows you to, before rolling damage, double damage in exchange for levels of Exhaustion. The idea is you roll to hit, then decide to invoke the feature if you hit, then roll for damage.
How would you balance that (IE on one side, +0, +1 or +2, the other side, how many levels of Exhaustion in exchange for the extra damage)? It's for a Rogue.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Might be over powered in one direction and crippling in the other but I'd be tempted to copy the Gambler's Blade (admittedly my favourite magic item) and let them choose on an attack by attack basis whether they wanted the +1, +2 or +3 and in return get the same number of levels of exhaustion. Maybe even allow triple damage for the +3 so it becomes a really high risk high reward item that could kill a monster in one go but you'll be wiped out for days afterwards
That's a really interesting proposition! Would you have it decided at dawn instead though, like Gambler's Blade? Or is the Exhaustion aspect just that much stronger of a consequence to be on a per hit basis?
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I am not understanding why anyone would even want to exchange exhaustion for a up to a +3? I understand that a +3 to hit is a big deal, but it only increases the odds to hit by 15%. If you have enough pluses at a level to get a +3, how helpful is that extra 15%?
Damage wise. You have a 100 HP monster. I hit with a +0 dagger, now I do 1d4? So if I hit with a +3 dagger, I hit with 1d4+3. That is just a 3% amount and max of 7%. Being a rouge and sneak attack, does that extra 3 points even matter? I know every point matters, but if you are rolling a fistful of dice, how much does 3 points make difference wise?
That's a really interesting proposition! Would you have it decided at dawn instead though, like Gambler's Blade? Or is the Exhaustion aspect just that much stronger of a consequence to be on a per hit basis?
I think personally I'd let them decide on each strike, just to give Rogues another tactical thing to consider as they can then read the flow of battle and decide if it's worth risking everything
A 1d4 dagger could become 2d4 for a level of exhaustion? Sign me up! ... To toss that item in the trash.
2014 Frenzy Barbarians were considered bad because they took a level of exhaustion after an entire combat worth of attacks with a 1d12 or a 2d6 weapon.
In 2024 rules, one attack with your 2d4 dagger and you're at -2 to all d20 Test rolls (ability checks, attacks, and saves) until a long rest, with a cumulative -2 per additional time you use it. That includes -2 to hit, so each time you use it, your chance to hit at all goes down by 10%.
Even if this counts towards doubling Sneak Attack damage, as a player I'd rather just farm advantage normally looking for crits.
I'd rethink the item entirely, perhaps you take 1d4 damage yourself to get the extra 1d4 damage on the enemy. But even that might not be worthwhile.
How would you balance this weapon for an adventure going up to level 10? It's a dagger that allows you to, before rolling damage, double damage in exchange for levels of Exhaustion. The idea is you roll to hit, then decide to invoke the feature if you hit, then roll for damage.
How would you balance that (IE on one side, +0, +1 or +2, the other side, how many levels of Exhaustion in exchange for the extra damage)? It's for a Rogue.
Plus doesn't matter that much; I'd assign it to match the sort of weapons you're handing out in general.
As for the ability:
- Can it be used more than once per hit? If so, does it double again (bad), or double, triple, quadruple, etc? (better)
If it can be used repeatedly on a single hit, it's only going to be used in climactic battles. I would advise not letting it be used that way, to encourage the tradeoff, as opposed to saving up your exhaustion for one megastrike.
- Does it double a critical hit?
If it does, it's probably going to end up only being used on crits. (Which may lead to it being forgotten.)
Ultimately, I'm not sure if it's actually good. Exhaustion is painful enough that using it is likely to cost you more damage on future attacks than you gain. How much this is true depends on how long your adventuring days are (the more fights you have per long rest, the worse using it gets), but exhaustion is like the one condition that isn't fully removed by long rests, so even with short days, there's a significant disincentive to using it more than once a day.
A 1d4 dagger could become 2d4 for a level of exhaustion? Sign me up! ... To toss that item in the trash.
2014 Frenzy Barbarians were considered bad because they took a level of exhaustion after an entire combat worth of attacks with a 1d12 or a 2d6 weapon.
In 2024 rules, one attack with your 2d4 dagger and you're at -2 to all d20 Test rolls (ability checks, attacks, and saves) until a long rest, with a cumulative -2 per additional time you use it. That includes -2 to hit, so each time you use it, your chance to hit at all goes down by 10%.
Even if this counts towards doubling Sneak Attack damage, as a player I'd rather just farm advantage normally looking for crits.
I'd rethink the item entirely, perhaps you take 1d4 damage yourself to get the extra 1d4 damage on the enemy. But even that might not be worthwhile.
If it was just swapping a 1d4 for a 2d4 I'd agree but the key point is that it's for a Rogue. Having played a 2024 Rogue from level 1 to level 20 doubling sneak attack is pretty huge, that's the equivalent of doing level 20 damage at level 10 in return for a fairly small cost. That's a fight possibly finishing on the first hit
A level of Exhaustion (let alone several levels of Exhaustion) is way too high a price to pay. Double damage on a dagger means on average 2.5 additional pts, but taking a level of Exhaustion to get it means you'll hit less often after that. You would do more damage over the course of the fight (not to mention have better skill checks and faster movement for the rest of the day) by NOT using that weapon, than by using it.
Using the +3 example: To get that +3 to hit, you'd be accepting a -2 to hit, -2 to all skill checks, -2 to all saves, and -5' of movement. You are giving up WAY more than you are getting.
If it grants double damage, that still doesn't make up for the massive penalties you'd be accumulating. Attack a second round without that ability and you've now done the same damage (double damage on round 1 is the same as normal damage for rounds 1 + 2 (until you add in modifiers, then normal attacking comes out ahead)), and comes with no penalty.
I'd consider that weapon to be a cursed object, and get rid of it at first opportuntiy (or find a way to get it in the hands of my enemies).
How would you balance this weapon for an adventure going up to level 10? It's a dagger that allows you to, before rolling damage, double damage in exchange for levels of Exhaustion. The idea is you roll to hit, then decide to invoke the feature if you hit, then roll for damage.
How would you balance that (IE on one side, +0, +1 or +2, the other side, how many levels of Exhaustion in exchange for the extra damage)? It's for a Rogue.
Plus doesn't matter that much; I'd assign it to match the sort of weapons you're handing out in general.
The +X is enough of a boost that the game considers it worthy to be gated several levels later. I disagree that it doesn't matter that much - they're going to be ending the campaign at a level where +2 by itself is considered a decent magic weapon. Especially as the damage aspect would be multiplied, in my envisaging of the weapon. On a strike and invocation of the feature, a +2 weapon would do an additional +4 damage.
As for the ability:
- Can it be used more than once per hit? If so, does it double again (bad), or double, triple, quadruple, etc? (better)
I'm not clear what you mean, "double" Vs "double again".
If it can be used repeatedly on a single hit, it's only going to be used in climactic battles. I would advise not letting it be used that way, to encourage the tradeoff, as opposed to saving up your exhaustion for one megastrike.
The option is intended to make it a climactic clinching action - does he just keep stabbing, or does he go nuclear in an attempt to end it sooner?
- Does it double a critical hit?
If it does, it's probably going to end up only being used on crits. (Which may lead to it being forgotten.)
My thoughts are that it would, it would encourage its use while not having to buff the damage to the point where it's regularly an option.
Ultimately, I'm not sure if it's actually good. Exhaustion is painful enough that using it is likely to cost you more damage on future attacks than you gain. How much this is true depends on how long your adventuring days are (the more fights you have per long rest, the worse using it gets), but exhaustion is like the one condition that isn't fully removed by long rests, so even with short days, there's a significant disincentive to using it more than once a day.
The intent is not that it's used all the time. It should be used rarely - Rogues, thanks to Sneak Attack, already done martial level damage on a per Round basis while being great at other stuff. I don't want him regularly eclipsing everyone else. The idea is to give him an ace in the hole when he gets desperate.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
You could consider an ability similar to Barbarian Reckless Attack - change the dagger damage from 1d4 to 2d4 in exchange for attacks being at Advantage on the Rogue.
Or allow spending a Hit Die (1) for extra damage once per turn.
Or straight up take damage on a hit and do similar to the target. Blood whatever.
Or don't do anything and just have the damage scale similar to cantrips 1d4 at level 1, 2d4 at level 5, and 3d4 at level 10.
Maybe relevant - maybe not - but ... I have a rogue who has the Squire of Solamnia Feat. Which let's me decide to have advantage and +1d8 extra damage a few times per long rest.
I can fish for advantage - but I can also just elect to have advantage a few times per rest, which is hugely satisfying. Since I don't like my character's main power being reliant on others.
Anyways, potentially pointless sidenote.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Honestly, even factoring in sneak attack, double damage doesn't seem like a tradeoff I'd be tempted by very often in exchange for a level of Exhaustion. (Rogues are also skill monkeys, after all.) The potential payoff would have to be even greater
If I might make a suggestion -- instead of just increased damage from the rogue's hit, make it that you give the target vulnerability to a specific type of damage in exchange for one level of exhaustion, or vulnerability to all types in exchange for three levels. The vulnerability would last until the start of the rogue's next turn and would apply to the rogue's attack, so they could still get their double damage too if they wanted, but they could also set up their party for a massive turn... if they're willing to pay the price
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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How would you balance this weapon for an adventure going up to level 10? It's a dagger that allows you to, before rolling damage, double damage in exchange for levels of Exhaustion. The idea is you roll to hit, then decide to invoke the feature if you hit, then roll for damage.
How would you balance that (IE on one side, +0, +1 or +2, the other side, how many levels of Exhaustion in exchange for the extra damage)? It's for a Rogue.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Might be over powered in one direction and crippling in the other but I'd be tempted to copy the Gambler's Blade (admittedly my favourite magic item) and let them choose on an attack by attack basis whether they wanted the +1, +2 or +3 and in return get the same number of levels of exhaustion. Maybe even allow triple damage for the +3 so it becomes a really high risk high reward item that could kill a monster in one go but you'll be wiped out for days afterwards
That's a really interesting proposition! Would you have it decided at dawn instead though, like Gambler's Blade? Or is the Exhaustion aspect just that much stronger of a consequence to be on a per hit basis?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I am not understanding why anyone would even want to exchange exhaustion for a up to a +3? I understand that a +3 to hit is a big deal, but it only increases the odds to hit by 15%. If you have enough pluses at a level to get a +3, how helpful is that extra 15%?
Damage wise. You have a 100 HP monster. I hit with a +0 dagger, now I do 1d4? So if I hit with a +3 dagger, I hit with 1d4+3. That is just a 3% amount and max of 7%. Being a rouge and sneak attack, does that extra 3 points even matter? I know every point matters, but if you are rolling a fistful of dice, how much does 3 points make difference wise?
I think personally I'd let them decide on each strike, just to give Rogues another tactical thing to consider as they can then read the flow of battle and decide if it's worth risking everything
A 1d4 dagger could become 2d4 for a level of exhaustion? Sign me up! ... To toss that item in the trash.
2014 Frenzy Barbarians were considered bad because they took a level of exhaustion after an entire combat worth of attacks with a 1d12 or a 2d6 weapon.
In 2024 rules, one attack with your 2d4 dagger and you're at -2 to all d20 Test rolls (ability checks, attacks, and saves) until a long rest, with a cumulative -2 per additional time you use it. That includes -2 to hit, so each time you use it, your chance to hit at all goes down by 10%.
Even if this counts towards doubling Sneak Attack damage, as a player I'd rather just farm advantage normally looking for crits.
I'd rethink the item entirely, perhaps you take 1d4 damage yourself to get the extra 1d4 damage on the enemy. But even that might not be worthwhile.
Plus doesn't matter that much; I'd assign it to match the sort of weapons you're handing out in general.
As for the ability:
- Can it be used more than once per hit? If so, does it double again (bad), or double, triple, quadruple, etc? (better)
If it can be used repeatedly on a single hit, it's only going to be used in climactic battles. I would advise not letting it be used that way, to encourage the tradeoff, as opposed to saving up your exhaustion for one megastrike.
- Does it double a critical hit?
If it does, it's probably going to end up only being used on crits. (Which may lead to it being forgotten.)
Ultimately, I'm not sure if it's actually good. Exhaustion is painful enough that using it is likely to cost you more damage on future attacks than you gain. How much this is true depends on how long your adventuring days are (the more fights you have per long rest, the worse using it gets), but exhaustion is like the one condition that isn't fully removed by long rests, so even with short days, there's a significant disincentive to using it more than once a day.
If it was just swapping a 1d4 for a 2d4 I'd agree but the key point is that it's for a Rogue. Having played a 2024 Rogue from level 1 to level 20 doubling sneak attack is pretty huge, that's the equivalent of doing level 20 damage at level 10 in return for a fairly small cost. That's a fight possibly finishing on the first hit
A level of Exhaustion (let alone several levels of Exhaustion) is way too high a price to pay. Double damage on a dagger means on average 2.5 additional pts, but taking a level of Exhaustion to get it means you'll hit less often after that. You would do more damage over the course of the fight (not to mention have better skill checks and faster movement for the rest of the day) by NOT using that weapon, than by using it.
Using the +3 example: To get that +3 to hit, you'd be accepting a -2 to hit, -2 to all skill checks, -2 to all saves, and -5' of movement. You are giving up WAY more than you are getting.
If it grants double damage, that still doesn't make up for the massive penalties you'd be accumulating. Attack a second round without that ability and you've now done the same damage (double damage on round 1 is the same as normal damage for rounds 1 + 2 (until you add in modifiers, then normal attacking comes out ahead)), and comes with no penalty.
I'd consider that weapon to be a cursed object, and get rid of it at first opportuntiy (or find a way to get it in the hands of my enemies).
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
This sounds like it's going to be useless for everyone except 2014 Assassins, and it's going to be VERY strong for them.
The +X is enough of a boost that the game considers it worthy to be gated several levels later. I disagree that it doesn't matter that much - they're going to be ending the campaign at a level where +2 by itself is considered a decent magic weapon. Especially as the damage aspect would be multiplied, in my envisaging of the weapon. On a strike and invocation of the feature, a +2 weapon would do an additional +4 damage.
I'm not clear what you mean, "double" Vs "double again".
The option is intended to make it a climactic clinching action - does he just keep stabbing, or does he go nuclear in an attempt to end it sooner?
My thoughts are that it would, it would encourage its use while not having to buff the damage to the point where it's regularly an option.
The intent is not that it's used all the time. It should be used rarely - Rogues, thanks to Sneak Attack, already done martial level damage on a per Round basis while being great at other stuff. I don't want him regularly eclipsing everyone else. The idea is to give him an ace in the hole when he gets desperate.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
You could consider an ability similar to Barbarian Reckless Attack - change the dagger damage from 1d4 to 2d4 in exchange for attacks being at Advantage on the Rogue.
Or allow spending a Hit Die (1) for extra damage once per turn.
Or straight up take damage on a hit and do similar to the target. Blood whatever.
Or don't do anything and just have the damage scale similar to cantrips 1d4 at level 1, 2d4 at level 5, and 3d4 at level 10.
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Maybe relevant - maybe not - but ... I have a rogue who has the Squire of Solamnia Feat. Which let's me decide to have advantage and +1d8 extra damage a few times per long rest.
I can fish for advantage - but I can also just elect to have advantage a few times per rest, which is hugely satisfying. Since I don't like my character's main power being reliant on others.
Anyways, potentially pointless sidenote.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Honestly, even factoring in sneak attack, double damage doesn't seem like a tradeoff I'd be tempted by very often in exchange for a level of Exhaustion. (Rogues are also skill monkeys, after all.) The potential payoff would have to be even greater
If I might make a suggestion -- instead of just increased damage from the rogue's hit, make it that you give the target vulnerability to a specific type of damage in exchange for one level of exhaustion, or vulnerability to all types in exchange for three levels. The vulnerability would last until the start of the rogue's next turn and would apply to the rogue's attack, so they could still get their double damage too if they wanted, but they could also set up their party for a massive turn... if they're willing to pay the price
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)