Being an old school gamer - I started playing in my early teens with 1E - I love the maps in Dragon Heist.
I've actually long wondered about the need for highly artistic, incredibly detailed maps, especially of locations that players will discover/experience a bit at a time. For most of the 3E/4E time period, I found most maps to be hard to read from all the texturing, shadows, etc. And all the flourishes were wasted because the players aren't ever going to see them. When I'm reading a published adventure, I'd rather have a map that's extremely easy to skim and locate each numbered/detailed encounter than a beautifully rendered piece of art that gives me eye strain. I vastly prefer more utilitarian maps for areas and locations that the characters figure out a piece at a time.
When it comes to country or continent (or similarly large areas) maps, then yes, give me all your artistic talent. But for a dungeoncrawl? Just give me something clear and well designed.
I'm the opposite. A well designed full color map becomes as interesting and evocative as a well crafted miniature. Princes of the Apocalypse had some of the best looking maps in 5th edition in my opinion. Take for instance this final set piece battle in the Colossus. I could not have drawn this, and a colored wet marker wouldn't have been nearly as attractive. However, one of my main hobbies is doing a highly detailed story recap for each session, and full color photography of the battle maps is a huge part of that.
This one was Feathergale Spire, and it was a random tower map I found online. Personally, I like the garish color and decorations, and the players would explore and exploit drawn details on the map.
Let me ask again: I'm trying to understand the value of the really beautifully done maps to players since - unless I'm mistaken - many of them aren't meant to be viewed all at once.
For example: the map for the Fane of the Eye. I haven't run the adventure, but it's my assumption players aren't supposed to be able to see the entire fane at once without having it explored it one area at a time. How do you use the map in a way that doesn't spoil the layout but still underscores the value of having a beautifully drawn map?
I'm not asking sarcastically! I'm genuinely curious.
Let me ask again: I'm trying to understand the value of the really beautifully done maps to players since - unless I'm mistaken - many of them aren't meant to be viewed all at once.
For example: the map for the Fane of the Eye. I haven't run the adventure, but it's my assumption players aren't supposed to be able to see the entire fane at once without having it explored it one area at a time. How do you use the map in a way that doesn't spoil the layout but still underscores the value of having a beautifully drawn map?
I'm not asking sarcastically! I'm genuinely curious.
Hmm. I tried to reload it. Should work now (i hope, did for me)
as for your question, in large maps they explore room by room, I would cover it in removable pieces of black paper. Such as the Fane, which was an amazing, amazing map.
EDIT- the only real problem with the giant Princes maps is that they were at 10 foot scale, which could make some of the combats wonky if they were too big. We managed though, or would redraw a complex fight to scale on erase board.
Eventually, after many return trips, the whole Fane is explored and they know the layout. In this case, the session was titled Escape From the Fane of the Eye, and it was a tense, terrifying 2 hour chase through the corridors as the PCs fled from an overwhelming task force of cultists. .
Let me ask again: I'm trying to understand the value of the really beautifully done maps to players since - unless I'm mistaken - many of them aren't meant to be viewed all at once.
For example: the map for the Fane of the Eye. I haven't run the adventure, but it's my assumption players aren't supposed to be able to see the entire fane at once without having it explored it one area at a time. How do you use the map in a way that doesn't spoil the layout but still underscores the value of having a beautifully drawn map?
I'm not asking sarcastically! I'm genuinely curious.
I use a SmartTV as my battlemap, wireless synced to my laptop. I use an app that lets me reveal the areas I want.
@Twiig that is probably the best way to do it, at least as far as creating line of sight and fog of war. The biggest issue is light levels and how far a PC can or cannot see, and that is very hard to replicate on the table.
I've only used this set up for 2 sessions so far. I got it all for our new Waterdeep Dragon Heist Campaign. I'm still trying to perfect how to best use it. Overall, the investment was split by my friend and I. The TV & Acrylic came out to about $150/ea.
I'm still on the lookout for something that might work better.
That's really awesome. I would love to play on a flat screen LCD. I don't currently have my own game room, but that's the setup I would have. Maybe a 46" LCD TV and use a laptop to project maps.
Per another source, here are the measurements: Castle War (29.5” x 18”), Sea Ward (20” x 18”), Dock Ward (18” x 17”) South Ward (14.5” x 7.5”), Field Ward (18” x 17”), Traders Ward/City of the Dead (21” x 10”), and North Ward (23” x 13.5”).
So, of course, you'll note that this might help with city navigation; but it doesn't help if you want premade battle mats for specific areas.
Xukuri, that makes perfect sense for an at home game. I run all my games online, and I desperately miss the full color/detailed maps. They are incredibly visible to players constantly, and all the detail of the color maps truly enhances the experience, especially with advanced lighting and Fog of War options that are now possible. Staring at these featureless maps on a computer screen for hours isn't a great option. I feel this whole debate is largely down to where people are playing, and my biggest suggestion would be for WotC to produce or allow the community to produce maps suitable for a digital tabletop (they have removed fan made maps from the DM's Guild that emulate the previous style, which feels like an extra slap in the face given the situation).
I'm inclined to agree with Loren here. I love the maps just as they are; they're great for how I DM. But WotC should definitely allow replacements on DMsGuild (taking their cut of course) for people who want the work of colorized versions done for them. (If they aren't providing their own... I'm surprised every module doesn't have an optional "map pack" supplement.) For all the good WotC does, they're leaving a lot of money on the table as far as supplements, with Gale Force 9 barely filling some of the gaps (usually months after third parties have tried to).
And considering how many people moan about not getting D&D Beyond access with their printed book, this is the kind of "value added" thing that would get a lot of people to double dip, or choose digital...
My book came today. Still reading over it, but the adventure seems solid, very different, but the black and white maps and lack of any detail is jarring to me. The color interior art is fantastic though, as it is for all of WotC products. I am somewhat worried now that they will continue this bland black and white dungeon design into Mad Mage....
If there were just options to get color battle maps for VTT and Print then I wouldn't care.
I know it's my old school roots, but I really love the handdrawn look to the maps. There's enough detail to flesh things out but it feels like something your own DM drew up. Which I really dig.
My book came today. Still reading over it, but the adventure seems solid, very different, but the black and white maps and lack of any detail is jarring to me. The color interior art is fantastic though, as it is for all of WotC products. I am somewhat worried now that they will continue this bland black and white dungeon design into Mad Mage....
If there were just options to get color battle maps for VTT and Print then I wouldn't care.
This exactly. I've been in several places around the internet debating with people who are defending the black and white maps like their lives depended on it. And my point all along is why didn't WoTC offer both by putting B&W in the book and selling color, high detail maps online? Most of us who print out maps for our players do this anyway so it wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary. Are they trying to save a buck? Will color maps be reserved for high end products like the B&G deluxe set? Perkins said in a podcast this was an experiment. Its troubling to us DMs who love and use the high detail, color maps at our tables.
As for Mad Mage, I'll probably use old Undermountain maps. There's a few detailed color ones kicking around but for WDH I'm forced to use other maps and not the ones from the story. It's all about options and Im feeling a lack there of.
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I'm the opposite. A well designed full color map becomes as interesting and evocative as a well crafted miniature. Princes of the Apocalypse had some of the best looking maps in 5th edition in my opinion. Take for instance this final set piece battle in the Colossus. I could not have drawn this, and a colored wet marker wouldn't have been nearly as attractive. However, one of my main hobbies is doing a highly detailed story recap for each session, and full color photography of the battle maps is a huge part of that.
https://imgur.com/5ZNnnx4
This one was Feathergale Spire, and it was a random tower map I found online. Personally, I like the garish color and decorations, and the players would explore and exploit drawn details on the map.
https://imgur.com/4gc2vIt
Link doesn't work for me. :(
Let me ask again: I'm trying to understand the value of the really beautifully done maps to players since - unless I'm mistaken - many of them aren't meant to be viewed all at once.
For example: the map for the Fane of the Eye. I haven't run the adventure, but it's my assumption players aren't supposed to be able to see the entire fane at once without having it explored it one area at a time. How do you use the map in a way that doesn't spoil the layout but still underscores the value of having a beautifully drawn map?
I'm not asking sarcastically! I'm genuinely curious.
Hmm. I tried to reload it. Should work now (i hope, did for me)
as for your question, in large maps they explore room by room, I would cover it in removable pieces of black paper. Such as the Fane, which was an amazing, amazing map.
https://imgur.com/3kOALO5
EDIT- the only real problem with the giant Princes maps is that they were at 10 foot scale, which could make some of the combats wonky if they were too big. We managed though, or would redraw a complex fight to scale on erase board.
Eventually, after many return trips, the whole Fane is explored and they know the layout. In this case, the session was titled Escape From the Fane of the Eye, and it was a tense, terrifying 2 hour chase through the corridors as the PCs fled from an overwhelming task force of cultists. .
https://imgur.com/2s5jN9X
https://imgur.com/hrDSWlR
I use a SmartTV as my battlemap, wireless synced to my laptop. I use an app that lets me reveal the areas I want.
https://imgur.com/howKBpA
@Twiig that is probably the best way to do it, at least as far as creating line of sight and fog of war. The biggest issue is light levels and how far a PC can or cannot see, and that is very hard to replicate on the table.
That is very cool! Thank you for sharing. It makes sense that more detailed, evocative maps would better fit your game.
Twiig, what app do you use for that?
I've been using a mix of
https://github.com/apclary/dungeon-revealer
https://sites.google.com/view/dynamicdungeons/buy-now-dynamic-dungeons-editor-and-player-1-0-1
I'm still on the lookout for something that might work better.
I've only used this set up for 2 sessions so far. I got it all for our new Waterdeep Dragon Heist Campaign. I'm still trying to perfect how to best use it. Overall, the investment was split by my friend and I. The TV & Acrylic came out to about $150/ea.
That's really awesome. I would love to play on a flat screen LCD. I don't currently have my own game room, but that's the setup I would have. Maybe a 46" LCD TV and use a laptop to project maps.
There are a couple pictures on Amazon now; here's another right from the source: https://www.gtsdistribution.com/ROLE-PLAYING-GAMES/DUNGEONS-AND-DRAGONS-DRAGON-HEIST-MAP-SET-7CT.asp
Per another source, here are the measurements: Castle War (29.5” x 18”), Sea Ward (20” x 18”), Dock Ward (18” x 17”) South Ward (14.5” x 7.5”), Field Ward (18” x 17”), Traders Ward/City of the Dead (21” x 10”), and North Ward (23” x 13.5”).
So, of course, you'll note that this might help with city navigation; but it doesn't help if you want premade battle mats for specific areas.
I'm inclined to agree with Loren here. I love the maps just as they are; they're great for how I DM. But WotC should definitely allow replacements on DMsGuild (taking their cut of course) for people who want the work of colorized versions done for them. (If they aren't providing their own... I'm surprised every module doesn't have an optional "map pack" supplement.) For all the good WotC does, they're leaving a lot of money on the table as far as supplements, with Gale Force 9 barely filling some of the gaps (usually months after third parties have tried to).
And considering how many people moan about not getting D&D Beyond access with their printed book, this is the kind of "value added" thing that would get a lot of people to double dip, or choose digital...
My book came today. Still reading over it, but the adventure seems solid, very different, but the black and white maps and lack of any detail is jarring to me. The color interior art is fantastic though, as it is for all of WotC products. I am somewhat worried now that they will continue this bland black and white dungeon design into Mad Mage....
If there were just options to get color battle maps for VTT and Print then I wouldn't care.
Does anyone have a pic of how the black & white maps appear in the books? It actually sounds pretty cool to me.
I don't know what it looks like in the books, but in the DDB compendiums, here's an example map:
Same maps in the book.
I know it's my old school roots, but I really love the handdrawn look to the maps. There's enough detail to flesh things out but it feels like something your own DM drew up. Which I really dig.
Yeah, those look pretty darned good to me.
Dyson did not do the maps for Dungeon of the Mad Mage; that book will have an entirely different style from DH.
This exactly. I've been in several places around the internet debating with people who are defending the black and white maps like their lives depended on it. And my point all along is why didn't WoTC offer both by putting B&W in the book and selling color, high detail maps online? Most of us who print out maps for our players do this anyway so it wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary. Are they trying to save a buck? Will color maps be reserved for high end products like the B&G deluxe set? Perkins said in a podcast this was an experiment. Its troubling to us DMs who love and use the high detail, color maps at our tables.
As for Mad Mage, I'll probably use old Undermountain maps. There's a few detailed color ones kicking around but for WDH I'm forced to use other maps and not the ones from the story. It's all about options and Im feeling a lack there of.