Now, I know some folks think that if magic exists there is no reason to even think about science, but I disagree.
In my own game, the a fire mage has to learn Newton's Laws in order to safely and effectively throw fire around.
The basis of physical magic is that conscious Will can directly change the physical world, with training, by accessing the Thaumatological Field, which is like the gravity or electromagnetic fields. So, the laws of physics still apply, we just have an incomplete Standard Model.
In Eberron, magic is scientific in that it is predictable and replicable. It can be studied, experimented with, and advanced just like technology in the real world.
Anyone else like this this sort of thing? How do you use it in your worlds?
Sounds like a lot of work to introduce concepts into a world which probably isn't ready for the consequences of those concepts. In otherwords by adding realism you potentially also take it away.
Simple example. The presence of guns within the world should make all other weapons mostly obsolete.
Newtons laws are probably similar in that knowledge of how they work would probably produce other consequences.
And even trying to come up with a scientific explanation for wish would be interesting to say the least.
I find it more fun to play in a world where the impossibly can happen.
Sounds like a lot of work to introduce concepts into a world which probably isn't ready for the consequences of those concepts. In otherwords by adding realism you potentially also take it away.
Simple example. The presence of guns within the world should make all other weapons mostly obsolete.
Newtons laws are probably similar in that knowledge of how they work would probably produce other consequences.
And even trying to come up with a scientific explanation for wish would be interesting to say the least.
I find it more fun to play in a world where the impossibly can happen.
I probs wasn't super clear.
Not all magic in a world needs to be scientific, in such a setting. Just physical magic.
In my own setting, the spirit world doesn't give a damn about conservation of energy, and gods are perfectly happy existing in multiple places and contradictory states simultaneously.
On guns: Why? There are magic armors, protective magic, etc, and it's up to the world builder how all that works.
But mostly, guns didn't, by simply existing, obsolete other weapons. It took hundreds of years for other weapons to become obsolete. And that was without magic to keep your swashbuckling swordsman alive to stab the gunslinger. All kinds of magic. Protection, healing, teleportation, invisibility, curses that make the other guy suck and shooting for a few moments, etc.
My setting goes further, because I established before it became a world with guns and cars and the like that magic works better when the user is touching the focus of the enchantment.
EG, melee weapons and armor enchant more easily/powerfully than ranged weapons. Within ranged weaponry, thrown weapons enchant best, followed by bows and crossbows, followed by guns, because each step has a higher degree of separation between the missile and the user. Guns are still very useful, and most melee fighters prefer them for range, and ranged folks who don't do much or any magic prefer them since they don't care as much about enchantment, and guns are easier and have better range.
But magical ranged warriors still love the bow, because they can more easily enchant the arrows to explode, or return to the quiver, or create darkness, or whatever, which means they can easily enchant as they draw, at least in my system.
Anyway, nothing at all about creating scientific magic obviates the impossible.
I've always loved the potential of different idea's on how magic works in a world. I think the exercise of developing physical laws that govern how magic can exist in the world is an important exercise that when put into practice often has to be thrown out the window. But, still an important exercise since it leads to thinking about magic in a way that can give you new way's to solve problems.
I've always really liked thinking about the cause of magic, and how that can be used to achieve alternate results. A classic example used many times in literature is...To create a fireball one would need to draw heat out of the surrounding area to concentrate into a single space. This means that ice magic is essentially the reverse coin of a fireball. The cause of the fireball is moving heat, so you could practically use the creation of a fireball to freeze something.
This leads to the thought of...Things like withering touch. We thinking of that type of magic as "drawing the life force" out of a person. But what is life force? if you think of it as water from a persons body, it internally holds true. The skin withers, they can die if it goes too far. They feel weak afterwards, muscles atrophe because they have lost all their moisture. Blood thickens.
So in a pinch...Could you use withering touch to draw the moisture out of something to concentrate into water? Are create water and withering touch the same type of magic used in slightly different way's to achieve greatly different effects?
I've always loved the potential of different idea's on how magic works in a world. I think the exercise of developing physical laws that govern how magic can exist in the world is an important exercise that when put into practice often has to be thrown out the window. But, still an important exercise since it leads to thinking about magic in a way that can give you new way's to solve problems.
I've always really liked thinking about the cause of magic, and how that can be used to achieve alternate results. A classic example used many times in literature is...To create a fireball one would need to draw heat out of the surrounding area to concentrate into a single space. This means that ice magic is essentially the reverse coin of a fireball. The cause of the fireball is moving heat, so you could practically use the creation of a fireball to freeze something.
This leads to the thought of...Things like withering touch. We thinking of that type of magic as "drawing the life force" out of a person. But what is life force? if you think of it as water from a persons body, it internally holds true. The skin withers, they can die if it goes too far. They feel weak afterwards, muscles atrophe because they have lost all their moisture. Blood thickens.
So in a pinch...Could you use withering touch to draw the moisture out of something to concentrate into water? Are create water and withering touch the same type of magic used in slightly different way's to achieve greatly different effects?
Great stuff! This is exactly the kind of questions I want as a DM from my players, and the sort of thinking I apply when world building. In fact, I've got desert people in one world who can draw water from the environment, and I think I may make them also able to do something like Withering Touch!
I really like the idea of magic with physical effects working in junction with scientific laws. However, it does break down in higher level spells (i.e. Reverse Gravity, Control Weather, Time Stop).
Especially in the instance of Time Stop, it may break down completely. Modern astrophysics states that a massive object, exclusively black holes, can cause time to move quicker for those closer to it; this does sort of match the effects of Time Stop. Does Time Stop create a mini black hole, or does the Thaumatological Field bend to mimic a massive object, or does Time Stop simply make the caster move very fast?
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
I really like the idea of magic with physical effects working in junction with scientific laws. However, it does break down in higher level spells (i.e. Reverse Gravity, Control Weather, Time Stop).
Especially in the instance of Time Stop, it may break down completely. Modern astrophysics states that a massive object, exclusively black holes, can cause time to move quicker for those closer to it; this does sort of match the effects of Time Stop. Does Time Stop create a mini black hole, or does the Thaumatological Field bend to mimic a massive object, or does Time Stop simply make the caster move very fast?
Reverse gravity simply plugs the caster in to the "operating system" of the world and lets him temporarily rewrite one of the laws of physics in a limited area.
Control weather is simple to explain; you just apply create or destroy water, gust of wind, and whatever spell you use to change the temperature, on a massive scale. (For a much better explanation, read Winds of Fury by Mercedes Lackey.)
Time stopsays "you briefly stop the flow of time for everyone but yourself", which I interpret as "you step outside of the flow of time, until the spell runs out or it catches you".
I really like the idea of magic with physical effects working in junction with scientific laws. However, it does break down in higher level spells (i.e. Reverse Gravity, Control Weather, Time Stop).
Especially in the instance of Time Stop, it may break down completely. Modern astrophysics states that a massive object, exclusively black holes, can cause time to move quicker for those closer to it; this does sort of match the effects of Time Stop. Does Time Stop create a mini black hole, or does the Thaumatological Field bend to mimic a massive object, or does Time Stop simply make the caster move very fast?
Reverse gravity simply plugs the caster in to the "operating system" of the world and lets him temporarily rewrite one of the laws of physics in a limited area.
Control weather is simple to explain; you just apply create or destroy water, gust of wind, and whatever spell you use to change the temperature, on a massive scale. (For a better explanation, read Winds of Fury by Mercedes Lackey.)
Time stopsays "you briefly stop the flow of time for everyone but yourself", which I interpret as "you step outside of the flow of time, until the spell runs out or it catches you".
I understand where you are coming from, but (correct me if I am wrong here) we are trying to reason how spells like Time Stop can happen in in a universe with laws like our own, not justify spells.
If that is the case, then one cannot step out of time or "hack the planet". Time and space are interconnected, and mass is the only way one can create gravity.
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
I really like the idea of magic with physical effects working in junction with scientific laws. However, it does break down in higher level spells (i.e. Reverse Gravity, Control Weather, Time Stop).
Especially in the instance of Time Stop, it may break down completely. Modern astrophysics states that a massive object, exclusively black holes, can cause time to move quicker for those closer to it; this does sort of match the effects of Time Stop. Does Time Stop create a mini black hole, or does the Thaumatological Field bend to mimic a massive object, or does Time Stop simply make the caster move very fast?
Reverse gravity simply plugs the caster in to the "operating system" of the world and lets him temporarily rewrite one of the laws of physics in a limited area.
Control weather is simple to explain; you just apply create or destroy water, gust of wind, and whatever spell you use to change the temperature, on a massive scale. (For a better explanation, read Winds of Fury by Mercedes Lackey.)
Time stopsays "you briefly stop the flow of time for everyone but yourself", which I interpret as "you step outside of the flow of time, until the spell runs out or it catches you".
I understand where you are coming from, but (correct me if I am wrong here) we are trying to reason how spells like Time Stop can happen in in a universe with laws like our own, not justify spells.
If that is the case, then one cannot step out of time or "hack the planet". Time and space are interconnected, and mass is the only way one can create gravity.
In a universe with laws like our own,magic doesn't work.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I really like the idea of magic with physical effects working in junction with scientific laws. However, it does break down in higher level spells (i.e. Reverse Gravity, Control Weather, Time Stop).
Especially in the instance of Time Stop, it may break down completely. Modern astrophysics states that a massive object, exclusively black holes, can cause time to move quicker for those closer to it; this does sort of match the effects of Time Stop. Does Time Stop create a mini black hole, or does the Thaumatological Field bend to mimic a massive object, or does Time Stop simply make the caster move very fast?
Reverse gravity simply plugs the caster in to the "operating system" of the world and lets him temporarily rewrite one of the laws of physics in a limited area.
Control weather is simple to explain; you just apply create or destroy water, gust of wind, and whatever spell you use to change the temperature, on a massive scale. (For a better explanation, read Winds of Fury by Mercedes Lackey.)
Time stopsays "you briefly stop the flow of time for everyone but yourself", which I interpret as "you step outside of the flow of time, until the spell runs out or it catches you".
I understand where you are coming from, but (correct me if I am wrong here) we are trying to reason how spells like Time Stop can happen in in a universe with laws like our own, not justify spells.
If that is the case, then one cannot step out of time or "hack the planet". Time and space are interconnected, and mass is the only way one can create gravity.
In a universe with laws like our own,magic doesn't work.
Yes, you are correct. But I hope you can bare with us as we indulge our more nerdy sides and create new laws for a universe that blends both science and magic alike.
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
I really like the idea of magic with physical effects working in junction with scientific laws. However, it does break down in higher level spells (i.e. Reverse Gravity, Control Weather, Time Stop).
Especially in the instance of Time Stop, it may break down completely. Modern astrophysics states that a massive object, exclusively black holes, can cause time to move quicker for those closer to it; this does sort of match the effects of Time Stop. Does Time Stop create a mini black hole, or does the Thaumatological Field bend to mimic a massive object, or does Time Stop simply make the caster move very fast?
Reverse gravity simply plugs the caster in to the "operating system" of the world and lets him temporarily rewrite one of the laws of physics in a limited area.
Control weather is simple to explain; you just apply create or destroy water, gust of wind, and whatever spell you use to change the temperature, on a massive scale. (For a better explanation, read Winds of Fury by Mercedes Lackey.)
Time stopsays "you briefly stop the flow of time for everyone but yourself", which I interpret as "you step outside of the flow of time, until the spell runs out or it catches you".
I understand where you are coming from, but (correct me if I am wrong here) we are trying to reason how spells like Time Stop can happen in in a universe with laws like our own, not justify spells.
If that is the case, then one cannot step out of time or "hack the planet". Time and space are interconnected, and mass is the only way one can create gravity.
In a universe with laws like our own,magic doesn't work.
Yes, you are correct. But I hope you can bare with us as we indulge our more nerdy sides and create new laws for a universe that blends both science and magic alike.
That's. . . What I was doing. I think. I'm enough of a nerd that I can't quite tell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I really like the idea of magic with physical effects working in junction with scientific laws. However, it does break down in higher level spells (i.e. Reverse Gravity, Control Weather, Time Stop).
Especially in the instance of Time Stop, it may break down completely. Modern astrophysics states that a massive object, exclusively black holes, can cause time to move quicker for those closer to it; this does sort of match the effects of Time Stop. Does Time Stop create a mini black hole, or does the Thaumatological Field bend to mimic a massive object, or does Time Stop simply make the caster move very fast?
Reverse gravity simply plugs the caster in to the "operating system" of the world and lets him temporarily rewrite one of the laws of physics in a limited area.
Control weather is simple to explain; you just apply create or destroy water, gust of wind, and whatever spell you use to change the temperature, on a massive scale. (For a better explanation, read Winds of Fury by Mercedes Lackey.)
Time stopsays "you briefly stop the flow of time for everyone but yourself", which I interpret as "you step outside of the flow of time, until the spell runs out or it catches you".
I understand where you are coming from, but (correct me if I am wrong here) we are trying to reason how spells like Time Stop can happen in in a universe with laws like our own, not justify spells.
If that is the case, then one cannot step out of time or "hack the planet". Time and space are interconnected, and mass is the only way one can create gravity.
In a universe with laws like our own,magic doesn't work.
Yes, you are correct. But I hope you can bare with us as we indulge our more nerdy sides and create new laws for a universe that blends both science and magic alike.
That's. . . What I was doing. I think. I'm enough of a nerd that I can't quite tell.
From my side, it appears that, well, you aren't really engaging in the spirit of this thread. It's really fine though.
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
If that is the case, then one cannot step out of time or "hack the planet". Time and space are interconnected, and mass is the only way one can create gravity.
Sorry to derail the conversation, but +1 for a Hackers reference. *slow clap*
Let's talk about science and magic, shall we?
Now, I know some folks think that if magic exists there is no reason to even think about science, but I disagree.
In my own game, the a fire mage has to learn Newton's Laws in order to safely and effectively throw fire around.
The basis of physical magic is that conscious Will can directly change the physical world, with training, by accessing the Thaumatological Field, which is like the gravity or electromagnetic fields. So, the laws of physics still apply, we just have an incomplete Standard Model.
In Eberron, magic is scientific in that it is predictable and replicable. It can be studied, experimented with, and advanced just like technology in the real world.
Anyone else like this this sort of thing? How do you use it in your worlds?
We do bones, motherf***ker!
Sounds like a lot of work to introduce concepts into a world which probably isn't ready for the consequences of those concepts. In otherwords by adding realism you potentially also take it away.
Simple example. The presence of guns within the world should make all other weapons mostly obsolete.
Newtons laws are probably similar in that knowledge of how they work would probably produce other consequences.
And even trying to come up with a scientific explanation for wish would be interesting to say the least.
I find it more fun to play in a world where the impossibly can happen.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
I've always loved the potential of different idea's on how magic works in a world. I think the exercise of developing physical laws that govern how magic can exist in the world is an important exercise that when put into practice often has to be thrown out the window. But, still an important exercise since it leads to thinking about magic in a way that can give you new way's to solve problems.
I've always really liked thinking about the cause of magic, and how that can be used to achieve alternate results. A classic example used many times in literature is...To create a fireball one would need to draw heat out of the surrounding area to concentrate into a single space. This means that ice magic is essentially the reverse coin of a fireball. The cause of the fireball is moving heat, so you could practically use the creation of a fireball to freeze something.
This leads to the thought of...Things like withering touch. We thinking of that type of magic as "drawing the life force" out of a person. But what is life force? if you think of it as water from a persons body, it internally holds true. The skin withers, they can die if it goes too far. They feel weak afterwards, muscles atrophe because they have lost all their moisture. Blood thickens.
So in a pinch...Could you use withering touch to draw the moisture out of something to concentrate into water? Are create water and withering touch the same type of magic used in slightly different way's to achieve greatly different effects?
We do bones, motherf***ker!
I really like the idea of magic with physical effects working in junction with scientific laws. However, it does break down in higher level spells (i.e. Reverse Gravity, Control Weather, Time Stop).
Especially in the instance of Time Stop, it may break down completely. Modern astrophysics states that a massive object, exclusively black holes, can cause time to move quicker for those closer to it; this does sort of match the effects of Time Stop. Does Time Stop create a mini black hole, or does the Thaumatological Field bend to mimic a massive object, or does Time Stop simply make the caster move very fast?
Tooltips | Snippet Code | How to Homebrew on D&D Beyond | Subclass Guide | Feature Roadmap
Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Tooltips | Snippet Code | How to Homebrew on D&D Beyond | Subclass Guide | Feature Roadmap
Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Tooltips | Snippet Code | How to Homebrew on D&D Beyond | Subclass Guide | Feature Roadmap
Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Tooltips | Snippet Code | How to Homebrew on D&D Beyond | Subclass Guide | Feature Roadmap
Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
twitch.tv/PGKarieo