The others are fairly obvious; strength is a bull, dexterity is a cat, wisdom is an owl, etc. But charisma looks like an eagle? A chicken? Clarify, please.
The peacock is good subsitute to the noble eagle IMHO for a couple of reasons. First they are flamboyant and the center of attention, and secondly they are flirtatious and in your face. has anyone had a bard that just sit quietly in the back of the party most of the time, in my experiance I got a shy bard once. This is just food for thought since most people play their bards, to me, like a peacock trying to get your attention. Thoughts for everyone on peacock for Charisma?
Peacocks aren't really a great example because they actively try to draw attention to themselves. Charisma isn't being flamboyant, boisterous, loud, etc; that's just attention-seeking.
Charisma is force of personality. You can be charismatic while not doing anything. Eagles don't try to draw attention to themselves.. they just do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Enhance Ability is essentially a combined version of: Bull's Strength (STR), Bear's Endurance (CON), Cat's Grace (DEX), Fox's Cunning (INT), Owl's Wisdom (WIS), and Eagle's Splendor (CHA) from 3rd edition. They probably are using the same animals to represent anything related to the abilities on the whole site, especially since these animals have a long history of representing similar concepts.
Funny, I don't think of an eagle as an example of charisma, although it was selected for this in an earlier edition. I think of Power and Steadfastness when I think of an Eagle. I was thinking of a fox for charisma but using a fox for Intelligence could work. Maybe the peacock is the better example of charisma. I was trying to think of an animal that everyone wants to be their friend. I can't come up with one, except for the dolphin (porpoise) but I suspect we want to limit ourselves to land animals. One reason to vote for the fox is you may want to be his friend, and he wants you to act like his friend, but he's not necessarily interested in Being your friend, and this is the usual way charisma is used in D&D, as a scam to get past someone.
That's an incorrect way to think about Charisma. It literally has nothing to do with whether you are trying to make someone your friend, make them believe they are your friend, convince them to do something, etc. Those are skills. Those are Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion.
Charisma is simply the force of your personality/presence. It is your appearance, voice, mannerisms, etc. It is ambiguous by nature. You can be ugly as sin covered in scars & burns and still have an 18 Charisma.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Lions could be good if you are thinking a "majesty of prescence" type of thing. Lions are often used to represent royalty for that reason. I'd prefer a tiger, but they've got too much of a rep for sneaking around for their beauty and fierce presence to register with most people.
I wouldn't say that a peacock is wrong, but it is an incomplete picture of what Charisma refers to. Flamboyance is a perfectly workable means of control over a social environment, and can be used to manipulate people or their perceptions in a wide variety of ways. Whether it be to glean information, or to hold their attention away from another subject. But it's not the whole story.
The other side of Charisma is about backing up the grand display. It's not enough to talk the talk, you have to walk the walk. Confidence and follow through are imperative to convincing someone that their life depends on giving you the information you are interrogating them about. Or talking down the guy with the magic bomb from jumping off the roof, that you actually *can* help them through their problem. I'm not sure what animal best personifies that. An eagle is certainly majestic, and awe inspiring, but I'm also not sure that captures the full essence of Charisma.
lets be 100% honest, its cats. Cats can represent any of the ability scores based on the type of cat. Tiger: Strength and constitution Lion: Strength, charisma and wisdom house cat: Intelligence and wisdom
any cat ever: Dexterity also you don't aarakocra rocking that +1 cha, its tabaxi lol
I wouldn't say that a peacock is wrong, but it is an incomplete picture of what Charisma refers to. Flamboyance is a perfectly workable means of control over a social environment, and can be used to manipulate people or their perceptions in a wide variety of ways. Whether it be to glean information, or to hold their attention away from another subject. But it's not the whole story.
The other side of Charisma is about backing up the grand display. It's not enough to talk the talk, you have to walk the walk. Confidence and follow through are imperative to convincing someone that their life depends on giving you the information you are interrogating them about. Or talking down the guy with the magic bomb from jumping off the roof, that you actually *can* help them through their problem. I'm not sure what animal best personifies that. An eagle is certainly majestic, and awe inspiring, but I'm also not sure that captures the full essence of Charisma.
That's still the Deception/Intimidation/Persuasion skills: an application of latent talent & experience.
Charisma itself is really basic folks... it's just a measure of how much people/creatures are inclined to be naturally drawn to you.
Puppies and large-breed felines are good examples. People are naturally drawn to these animals without the animal doing anything to court that behavior.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Charisma itself is really basic folks... it's just a measure of how much people/creatures are inclined to be naturally drawn to you. Puppies and large-breed felines are good examples. People are naturally drawn to these animals without the animal doing anything to court that behavior.
It's really not. When you look at how Charisma scores are assigned to monsters, and how it's used as a spellcasting ability and saving throws, it's about your ego. The more confidence and self-esteem you have and the more you're capable of asserting yourself when interacting with others, the more charisma you have.
For example, Player's Handbook chapter 6 (Using Ability Scores) summarizes Charisma as "measuring force of personality", and the section that describes Charisma in detail says it "measures your ability to interact effectively with others." Sorcerers use Charisma because "the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world." DMG chapter 8 states that Charisma saving throws are for "withstanding effects, such as possession, that would subsume your personality or hurl you to another plane of existence." There's a clear pattern here: it's about being strong-willed.
Monsters also follow a pretty clear pattern: constructs that mindlessly carry out instructions (e.g. golems) and creatures with very limited self-awareness (e.g. oozes) have extremely low charisma scores (1-3), regardless of intelligence levels. Then you've got beasts and monsters similarly limited sentience, which have somewhat low charisma scores (6-7). Then you've got humanoids and other fully sentient beings, and at the top of end of the spectrum you've got proud and highly egotistical creatures like giants, genies, dragons and beholders. Many of these are outright terrifying rather than appealing.
If you guessed a monster's charisma score based on how likely someone is to be drawn to it, you'll often get significantly different results from their real score, because that's not what charisma really measures.
IC that's what I've been saying all along, and even explicitly said "force of personality" up top. I'm just trying to make clear the distinction between Charisma (ability score) itself, and the ways Charisma is used (skills, spells, etc). I see a lot of people (not just here) conflate the concepts.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
One problem I've been having conceptually with thinking of "Charisma animals" is that most of the "everyone knows when you enter the room" type of things really apply to any large predator. Because... massive and dangerous predator just entered the room.
Frankly, Dragons could have a charisma of -8 and they would still be the center of attention wherever they went.
One problem I've been having conceptually with thinking of "Charisma animals" is that most of the "everyone knows when you enter the room" type of things really apply to any large predator. Because... massive and dangerous predator just entered the room.
Frankly, Dragons could have a charisma of -8 and they would still be the center of attention wherever they went.
This is why dragons do have high Charisma. They are they center of attention wherever they go because of their awe-inducing presence. Same with the big cats & other large predators. They are majestic creatures with an aura that radiates deadly majesty.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
One problem I've been having conceptually with thinking of "Charisma animals" is that most of the "everyone knows when you enter the room" type of things really apply to any large predator. Because... massive and dangerous predator just entered the room.
Frankly, Dragons could have a charisma of -8 and they would still be the center of attention wherever they went.
This is why dragons do have high Charisma. They are they center of attention wherever they go because of their awe-inducing presence. Same with the big cats & other large predators. They are majestic creatures with an aura that radiates deadly majesty.
See, I disagree because it is an ingrained response to danger that I'm talking about.
With that Ogres would have high charisma. Think about it, do you imagine you could ignore the nine foot tall, tusked monster that could throw the entire bar at you, if they entered the bar? No. Everyone would immediately notice them because they are very big and very dangerous and very obvious. And following the same logic, the bigger and stronger hill giant would have a higher charisma than the ogre. Per the rules though, Ogres have a slightly higher charisma at 7(-2) while Hill Giants have a 6(-2). A common human has a 10(+0).
Does the farmer at the bar inspire more fear and attention than the Ogre and Hill Giant that walk in? No, but the farmer has a higher charisma so something about "deadly majesty" is lacking to achieve high charisma scores.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Taran Cragshollow (Summit Road)
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The others are fairly obvious; strength is a bull, dexterity is a cat, wisdom is an owl, etc. But charisma looks like an eagle? A chicken? Clarify, please.
"The Epic Level Handbook wasn't that bad, guys.
Guys, pls."
It's an eagle. The animals are taken from the Enhance Ability spell.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
But let’s be honest, house cats should really represent charisma.
The peacock is good subsitute to the noble eagle IMHO for a couple of reasons. First they are flamboyant and the center of attention, and secondly they are flirtatious and in your face. has anyone had a bard that just sit quietly in the back of the party most of the time, in my experiance I got a shy bard once. This is just food for thought since most people play their bards, to me, like a peacock trying to get your attention. Thoughts for everyone on peacock for Charisma?
Peacocks aren't really a great example because they actively try to draw attention to themselves. Charisma isn't being flamboyant, boisterous, loud, etc; that's just attention-seeking.
Charisma is force of personality. You can be charismatic while not doing anything. Eagles don't try to draw attention to themselves.. they just do.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Enhance Ability is essentially a combined version of: Bull's Strength (STR), Bear's Endurance (CON), Cat's Grace (DEX), Fox's Cunning (INT), Owl's Wisdom (WIS), and Eagle's Splendor (CHA) from 3rd edition. They probably are using the same animals to represent anything related to the abilities on the whole site, especially since these animals have a long history of representing similar concepts.
Funny, I don't think of an eagle as an example of charisma, although it was selected for this in an earlier edition. I think of Power and Steadfastness when I think of an Eagle. I was thinking of a fox for charisma but using a fox for Intelligence could work. Maybe the peacock is the better example of charisma. I was trying to think of an animal that everyone wants to be their friend. I can't come up with one, except for the dolphin (porpoise) but I suspect we want to limit ourselves to land animals. One reason to vote for the fox is you may want to be his friend, and he wants you to act like his friend, but he's not necessarily interested in Being your friend, and this is the usual way charisma is used in D&D, as a scam to get past someone.
That's an incorrect way to think about Charisma. It literally has nothing to do with whether you are trying to make someone your friend, make them believe they are your friend, convince them to do something, etc. Those are skills. Those are Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion.
Charisma is simply the force of your personality/presence. It is your appearance, voice, mannerisms, etc. It is ambiguous by nature. You can be ugly as sin covered in scars & burns and still have an 18 Charisma.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
A Snake! :)
Probably a puppy since people are just naturally drawn to em by their appearance and all the cute things they do.
Lions could be good if you are thinking a "majesty of prescence" type of thing. Lions are often used to represent royalty for that reason. I'd prefer a tiger, but they've got too much of a rep for sneaking around for their beauty and fierce presence to register with most people.
Taran Cragshollow (Summit Road)
I wouldn't say that a peacock is wrong, but it is an incomplete picture of what Charisma refers to. Flamboyance is a perfectly workable means of control over a social environment, and can be used to manipulate people or their perceptions in a wide variety of ways. Whether it be to glean information, or to hold their attention away from another subject. But it's not the whole story.
The other side of Charisma is about backing up the grand display. It's not enough to talk the talk, you have to walk the walk. Confidence and follow through are imperative to convincing someone that their life depends on giving you the information you are interrogating them about. Or talking down the guy with the magic bomb from jumping off the roof, that you actually *can* help them through their problem. I'm not sure what animal best personifies that. An eagle is certainly majestic, and awe inspiring, but I'm also not sure that captures the full essence of Charisma.
lets be 100% honest, its cats. Cats can represent any of the ability scores based on the type of cat.
Tiger: Strength and constitution
Lion: Strength, charisma and wisdom
house cat: Intelligence and wisdom
any cat ever: Dexterity
also you don't aarakocra rocking that +1 cha, its tabaxi lol
That's still the Deception/Intimidation/Persuasion skills: an application of latent talent & experience.
Charisma itself is really basic folks... it's just a measure of how much people/creatures are inclined to be naturally drawn to you.
Puppies and large-breed felines are good examples. People are naturally drawn to these animals without the animal doing anything to court that behavior.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It's really not. When you look at how Charisma scores are assigned to monsters, and how it's used as a spellcasting ability and saving throws, it's about your ego. The more confidence and self-esteem you have and the more you're capable of asserting yourself when interacting with others, the more charisma you have.
For example, Player's Handbook chapter 6 (Using Ability Scores) summarizes Charisma as "measuring force of personality", and the section that describes Charisma in detail says it "measures your ability to interact effectively with others." Sorcerers use Charisma because "the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world." DMG chapter 8 states that Charisma saving throws are for "withstanding effects, such as possession, that would subsume your personality or hurl you to another plane of existence." There's a clear pattern here: it's about being strong-willed.
Monsters also follow a pretty clear pattern: constructs that mindlessly carry out instructions (e.g. golems) and creatures with very limited self-awareness (e.g. oozes) have extremely low charisma scores (1-3), regardless of intelligence levels. Then you've got beasts and monsters similarly limited sentience, which have somewhat low charisma scores (6-7). Then you've got humanoids and other fully sentient beings, and at the top of end of the spectrum you've got proud and highly egotistical creatures like giants, genies, dragons and beholders. Many of these are outright terrifying rather than appealing.
If you guessed a monster's charisma score based on how likely someone is to be drawn to it, you'll often get significantly different results from their real score, because that's not what charisma really measures.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
IC that's what I've been saying all along, and even explicitly said "force of personality" up top. I'm just trying to make clear the distinction between Charisma (ability score) itself, and the ways Charisma is used (skills, spells, etc). I see a lot of people (not just here) conflate the concepts.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
One problem I've been having conceptually with thinking of "Charisma animals" is that most of the "everyone knows when you enter the room" type of things really apply to any large predator. Because... massive and dangerous predator just entered the room.
Frankly, Dragons could have a charisma of -8 and they would still be the center of attention wherever they went.
Taran Cragshollow (Summit Road)
I am starting a movement to change it from an eagle to a bottle nose dolphin
heheh get rickrolled xdddddd
YES!! THAT'S CHARISMA!!! Hold that concept.
This is why dragons do have high Charisma. They are they center of attention wherever they go because of their awe-inducing presence. Same with the big cats & other large predators. They are majestic creatures with an aura that radiates deadly majesty.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
See, I disagree because it is an ingrained response to danger that I'm talking about.
With that Ogres would have high charisma. Think about it, do you imagine you could ignore the nine foot tall, tusked monster that could throw the entire bar at you, if they entered the bar? No. Everyone would immediately notice them because they are very big and very dangerous and very obvious. And following the same logic, the bigger and stronger hill giant would have a higher charisma than the ogre. Per the rules though, Ogres have a slightly higher charisma at 7(-2) while Hill Giants have a 6(-2). A common human has a 10(+0).
Does the farmer at the bar inspire more fear and attention than the Ogre and Hill Giant that walk in? No, but the farmer has a higher charisma so something about "deadly majesty" is lacking to achieve high charisma scores.
Taran Cragshollow (Summit Road)