That's all well and good, and exactly what a proper DM should be doing. I'm speaking more to the tonal dissonance of the base 5e expectation that the world is overall extremely magic-poor, that virtually no one can do it and that the creation of artifacts and items that make use of it is either extremely rare and difficult or is lost altogether and no longer possible...and then making virtually every PC option in the game one that has a veritable cornucopia of magical powers and abilities.
And no, "you're an adventurer, that's just how it happens!" doesn't cut it. The game also encourages players to rise up from nothing, to be the forgotten farm boy looking for some excitement or the downtrodden wizard's apprentice no one appreciates or some other Level 1 Appropriate trope. All of which are exactly the sort of ordinary, mundane tosser that doesn't have spit to work with. Two goblin-infested caves later, you have more money than most of your peers make in a year and more power than your home town has ever seen in its entire history.
It. Is. Weird. And while a good DM can fix it, yes, that doesn't excuse the severe tonal dissonance inherent to 5e. I shouldn't have to fix it, even if I'm perfectly capable of doing so. Does that make any more sense?
I understand the Wizard fanboy responses. But remember that this is their actual job. This is what they get paid for. Thus, when they fail to do something they should have, they should be held accountable for it. I'm the consumer here. I bought their product and now I've found something lacking about it. It isn't my job to fix it. Its theirs.
I have looked for outside pricing for 5e and I did look over the Sane guide. However, that being said, I was surprised at the huge differences in prices they had for items compared to where the item would fall within the 5e Rarity range. The disparity was so great that it led to me not trusting the document. Which means now I'd have to do more work to go and validate the prices listed in them to see if I agree with it or not. The whole point is that this should have been done by Wizards. I shouldn't have to go find an outside price guide, or go through all of the magic items myself to price them accordingly.
It sounds to me like you'd do the exact same thing even if Wizards did have a more finely-detailed pricing list.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I'm speaking more to the tonal dissonance of the base 5e expectation that the world is overall extremely magic-poor, that virtually no one can do it and that the creation of artifacts and items that make use of it is either extremely rare and difficult or is lost altogether and no longer possible...and then making virtually every PC option in the game one that has a veritable cornucopia of magical powers and abilities.
You're comparing apples to oranges. Non-consumable magic items are permanent magical effects. There's almost no player options that permanently create something magical. Spells are ephemeral and most magical abilities have a limited duration. The few spells that permanently create an object either don't create something magical or are still subject to being dispelled.
It also doesn't matter what proportion of player options are magical in nature, because again, adventurers are rare, and different player options aren't equally likely to manifest in the world. That's like trying to argue a Firbolg Rogue is just as likely as a Human Fighter.
It. Is. Weird.
It's really not, you're just really fixated on this idea that all types of magic are somehow equivalent.
Being able to learn how to cast a spell a limited number of times is nothing at all like knowing how to create a magic ring that permanently confers some benefit.
I have to say, complaining about loot handed out by the random tables is a bit, well.... I mean, you’re the DM - if you don’t like what the random table provides, make it up! I’m prepping a module to run right now (introducing a new player, so using a short pre-made.)
The module is low on loot, so I’m adding more in. The magic weapons provided don’t fit the party characters, so I’m changing them. Who cares? The rules be more like guidelines.
I have to say, complaining about loot handed out by the random tables is a bit, well.... I mean, you’re the DM - if you don’t like what the random table provides, make it up! I’m prepping a module to run right now (introducing a new player, so using a short pre-made.)
The module is low on loot, so I’m adding more in. The magic weapons provided don’t fit the party characters, so I’m changing them. Who cares? The rules be more like guidelines.
Man if only.. DM seems to just often forget magic items, kinda hoping it's more on point this time. Don't want to run another game that by lvl 10 I have a +1 Longsword and maybe some raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaandom trinkety item.
I mean, I look at the prep on this one, and even for 2nd / 3rd level, the module puts in a +1 longsword. The party is a spellcaster, a ranger, and a paladin who wants to take Polearm Master. That sword is becoming a +1 glaive. And by itself, that's kind of boring, so it's also a waterborne glaive that floats in water, and that occasionally alters its appearance to fit current circumstances.
Later on, there's a +1 vicious dagger. That's becoming a longbow. But the Oathbow is literally the only longbow option in the PHB, DMG, or Xanathar's that isn't just a +X weapon. I'll probably adapt something like Critical Role's bow of the sky sentinel, or some other minor bow from Neverwinter Nights or Baldur's Gate 1/2...
Just some historical pedantry. 2e had no magic item pricing at all.
I never realized that. I always assumed when skimming through 2nd books that I missed it through skimming. This kind of blows the whole premise of this thread and some of the complaints about it out of the water.
But the way I am seeing this as intention rather than wording seems to be that, after the Spellplague and continent-swapping going on between Abeir and Toril and the way people seem to just run around destroying Wizard Towers and razing temples, the knowledge of how to make magical items is rarer than ever, wherein previous Editions every other spellcaster and the occasional non-magical individual knew how to make a wand or scroll or basic magical item.
The mention of needing 'formula' to craft items was especially intriguing. Ancient texts detailing how to craft a Potion of Giant's Strength, a crumbling scroll made of Blue Dragon hide with the instructions for making a Vorpal Sword, a giant fresco in an abandoned Dwarven complex containing the cipher to make a Belt of Dwarvenkind could all be an amazing find not only to give the players access to how to make the items in question, but their value to both the magical community and to specific nations and/or individuals who may wish to be the sole possessors of such knowledge could net the players a significant chunk of loot and money and a valuable connection with a more powerful NPC.
I'd also argue that the Devs also expected players to use 'Face' skills like Persuasion, Deception and maybe Intimidate to drop the costs on some items, as well as use their renown in a campaign and trading loot to drop the prices of magical items they wish to purchase. A +1 suit of armor ranges from 500 to 5,000 gold, but with some judicious application of Persuasion, trading in some mithril scimitars and studded leather armor you've recovered from a band of Drow that were menacing the town, and mentioning you're the ones who saved said town, and throwing in the offer of aid to the vendor, you could drop a +1 Half Plate suit from, say, 3,500 gold down to 2,000 gold easy. Likewise, if you find materials that seem useful for crafting something, like a Gold Dragon allows you to carry a Handy Haversack of shed scales from her lair and you've done some work for the local Elven community and they haven't been able to really pay you what your deeds have been worth, they might be willing to craft you a set of Dragon Scale Mail for the lowest possible price, simply to cover manufacturing costs, as their best way of showing their gratitude.
I do think Wizards made crafting unnecessarily complicated and time consuming this time around, but I do appreciate they were trying to streamline and 'smooth' the game down to make it faster and more about 'doing a few things well' rather than having players running around stacked to the gills with magical items to compensate for any weakness and boost their strengths to absurd levels, which in turn meant having to make hideously overpowered monsters and challenges that ate people who didn't min-max for breakfast and only encouraged the min-maxers to go at it even harder, becoming a sort of Darwinian arms race between the Devs and the Min-Maxers. But, thankfully, most of us will never, or rarely, play at a convention where we're stuck with not being able to do anything but craft potions at best. We have, or are, GMs/DMs who will work with us or give us house rules that can modify the campaign slightly to fit more with what the players want and the GM/DM is willing to put up with.
Yes, 2nd ed had no pricing...but no pricing at all. Not the half-assed job we have in 5th. If they didn't want to price items for that reason, then they should have left them out completely, perhaps just create instead a power level rating of some sort so that you had a good idea of the value to a character. But no, instead we get a pitiful chart for pricing with a system that puts more work on the DM...who has enough work to do already.
Yes, 2nd ed had no pricing...but no pricing at all. Not the half-assed job we have in 5th. If they didn't want to price items for that reason, then they should have left them out completely, perhaps just create instead a power level rating of some sort so that you had a good idea of the value to a character. But no, instead we get a pitiful chart for pricing with a system that puts more work on the DM...who has enough work to do already.
I think this is more personal preference or the mindset of how you approach it rather than a design thing.
In my experience as a DM and player, the price chart has made things a lot easier than in previous editions. This has been true for many players and DMs I have talked to. In this thread the concensus is also in favour of the design choice. While your opinion is not "wrong" in anyway, perhaps you could still realise this situation and come to the conclusion this is more a "you" thing and quite likely less about the designers "half-assing" something that has been their focus and passion for years to decades. The designers can make mistakes and are not beyond reproach but skilled game designers who have spent so long honing their craft and years of development into this game creating a design choice that is receiving of praise by the D&D community at large, are probably a bit more deserving of respect. This thread being about them "wussing" out or "half-assing" this choice is nothing but derogatory fluff.
Please recognise the difference between your personal preference/mindset about a design choice and bad game design - if this was bad game design almost all the responses here would be agreeing with you yet they're not. So let's try to remember this difference and be a tad more respectful to the designers who have dedicated large portions of their life to making this edition and other content for it, an edition that has proven to be the most popular and well-received, award-winning, edition of D&D in no small part because of the choices, like the one being discussed here, by the designers you are indirectly insulting.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
This entire thread is why there is no set pricing. The pricing of magic items is entirely dependent on the setting and the flavor of that setting the DM creates. To have this all set in stone because the rule book says so creates more issues than it solves.
That's why all you get are general guidelines for pricing based on the rarity of the item. The rest is up to the DM.
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That's all well and good, and exactly what a proper DM should be doing. I'm speaking more to the tonal dissonance of the base 5e expectation that the world is overall extremely magic-poor, that virtually no one can do it and that the creation of artifacts and items that make use of it is either extremely rare and difficult or is lost altogether and no longer possible...and then making virtually every PC option in the game one that has a veritable cornucopia of magical powers and abilities.
And no, "you're an adventurer, that's just how it happens!" doesn't cut it. The game also encourages players to rise up from nothing, to be the forgotten farm boy looking for some excitement or the downtrodden wizard's apprentice no one appreciates or some other Level 1 Appropriate trope. All of which are exactly the sort of ordinary, mundane tosser that doesn't have spit to work with. Two goblin-infested caves later, you have more money than most of your peers make in a year and more power than your home town has ever seen in its entire history.
It. Is. Weird. And while a good DM can fix it, yes, that doesn't excuse the severe tonal dissonance inherent to 5e. I shouldn't have to fix it, even if I'm perfectly capable of doing so. Does that make any more sense?
Please do not contact or message me.
Okay, Karen.
It sounds to me like you'd do the exact same thing even if Wizards did have a more finely-detailed pricing list.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You're comparing apples to oranges. Non-consumable magic items are permanent magical effects. There's almost no player options that permanently create something magical. Spells are ephemeral and most magical abilities have a limited duration. The few spells that permanently create an object either don't create something magical or are still subject to being dispelled.
It also doesn't matter what proportion of player options are magical in nature, because again, adventurers are rare, and different player options aren't equally likely to manifest in the world. That's like trying to argue a Firbolg Rogue is just as likely as a Human Fighter.
It's really not, you're just really fixated on this idea that all types of magic are somehow equivalent.
Being able to learn how to cast a spell a limited number of times is nothing at all like knowing how to create a magic ring that permanently confers some benefit.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I have to say, complaining about loot handed out by the random tables is a bit, well.... I mean, you’re the DM - if you don’t like what the random table provides, make it up! I’m prepping a module to run right now (introducing a new player, so using a short pre-made.)
The module is low on loot, so I’m adding more in. The magic weapons provided don’t fit the party characters, so I’m changing them. Who cares? The rules be more like guidelines.
Man if only.. DM seems to just often forget magic items, kinda hoping it's more on point this time. Don't want to run another game that by lvl 10 I have a +1 Longsword and maybe some raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaandom trinkety item.
I mean, I look at the prep on this one, and even for 2nd / 3rd level, the module puts in a +1 longsword. The party is a spellcaster, a ranger, and a paladin who wants to take Polearm Master. That sword is becoming a +1 glaive. And by itself, that's kind of boring, so it's also a waterborne glaive that floats in water, and that occasionally alters its appearance to fit current circumstances.
Later on, there's a +1 vicious dagger. That's becoming a longbow. But the Oathbow is literally the only longbow option in the PHB, DMG, or Xanathar's that isn't just a +X weapon. I'll probably adapt something like Critical Role's bow of the sky sentinel, or some other minor bow from Neverwinter Nights or Baldur's Gate 1/2...
Just some historical pedantry. 2e had no magic item pricing at all.
Coriana - Company of the Grey Chain
Wagner - Dragon Heist: Bards.
DM - The Old Keep
I never realized that. I always assumed when skimming through 2nd books that I missed it through skimming. This kind of blows the whole premise of this thread and some of the complaints about it out of the water.
I am new to 5E.
Like, I've only had the manuals for a month new.
But the way I am seeing this as intention rather than wording seems to be that, after the Spellplague and continent-swapping going on between Abeir and Toril and the way people seem to just run around destroying Wizard Towers and razing temples, the knowledge of how to make magical items is rarer than ever, wherein previous Editions every other spellcaster and the occasional non-magical individual knew how to make a wand or scroll or basic magical item.
The mention of needing 'formula' to craft items was especially intriguing. Ancient texts detailing how to craft a Potion of Giant's Strength, a crumbling scroll made of Blue Dragon hide with the instructions for making a Vorpal Sword, a giant fresco in an abandoned Dwarven complex containing the cipher to make a Belt of Dwarvenkind could all be an amazing find not only to give the players access to how to make the items in question, but their value to both the magical community and to specific nations and/or individuals who may wish to be the sole possessors of such knowledge could net the players a significant chunk of loot and money and a valuable connection with a more powerful NPC.
I'd also argue that the Devs also expected players to use 'Face' skills like Persuasion, Deception and maybe Intimidate to drop the costs on some items, as well as use their renown in a campaign and trading loot to drop the prices of magical items they wish to purchase. A +1 suit of armor ranges from 500 to 5,000 gold, but with some judicious application of Persuasion, trading in some mithril scimitars and studded leather armor you've recovered from a band of Drow that were menacing the town, and mentioning you're the ones who saved said town, and throwing in the offer of aid to the vendor, you could drop a +1 Half Plate suit from, say, 3,500 gold down to 2,000 gold easy. Likewise, if you find materials that seem useful for crafting something, like a Gold Dragon allows you to carry a Handy Haversack of shed scales from her lair and you've done some work for the local Elven community and they haven't been able to really pay you what your deeds have been worth, they might be willing to craft you a set of Dragon Scale Mail for the lowest possible price, simply to cover manufacturing costs, as their best way of showing their gratitude.
I do think Wizards made crafting unnecessarily complicated and time consuming this time around, but I do appreciate they were trying to streamline and 'smooth' the game down to make it faster and more about 'doing a few things well' rather than having players running around stacked to the gills with magical items to compensate for any weakness and boost their strengths to absurd levels, which in turn meant having to make hideously overpowered monsters and challenges that ate people who didn't min-max for breakfast and only encouraged the min-maxers to go at it even harder, becoming a sort of Darwinian arms race between the Devs and the Min-Maxers. But, thankfully, most of us will never, or rarely, play at a convention where we're stuck with not being able to do anything but craft potions at best. We have, or are, GMs/DMs who will work with us or give us house rules that can modify the campaign slightly to fit more with what the players want and the GM/DM is willing to put up with.
Yes, 2nd ed had no pricing...but no pricing at all. Not the half-assed job we have in 5th. If they didn't want to price items for that reason, then they should have left them out completely, perhaps just create instead a power level rating of some sort so that you had a good idea of the value to a character. But no, instead we get a pitiful chart for pricing with a system that puts more work on the DM...who has enough work to do already.
I think this is more personal preference or the mindset of how you approach it rather than a design thing.
In my experience as a DM and player, the price chart has made things a lot easier than in previous editions. This has been true for many players and DMs I have talked to. In this thread the concensus is also in favour of the design choice. While your opinion is not "wrong" in anyway, perhaps you could still realise this situation and come to the conclusion this is more a "you" thing and quite likely less about the designers "half-assing" something that has been their focus and passion for years to decades. The designers can make mistakes and are not beyond reproach but skilled game designers who have spent so long honing their craft and years of development into this game creating a design choice that is receiving of praise by the D&D community at large, are probably a bit more deserving of respect. This thread being about them "wussing" out or "half-assing" this choice is nothing but derogatory fluff.
Please recognise the difference between your personal preference/mindset about a design choice and bad game design - if this was bad game design almost all the responses here would be agreeing with you yet they're not. So let's try to remember this difference and be a tad more respectful to the designers who have dedicated large portions of their life to making this edition and other content for it, an edition that has proven to be the most popular and well-received, award-winning, edition of D&D in no small part because of the choices, like the one being discussed here, by the designers you are indirectly insulting.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
This entire thread is why there is no set pricing. The pricing of magic items is entirely dependent on the setting and the flavor of that setting the DM creates. To have this all set in stone because the rule book says so creates more issues than it solves.
That's why all you get are general guidelines for pricing based on the rarity of the item. The rest is up to the DM.