We were down a player on short notice two weeks ago, rather than run the game I had prepared I grabbed my 1980s "red box"; not AD&D, but the old BECMI sets have charm too.
All three players had a good time; a father and his two kids. When a giant crab spider showed up only the dad knew the fear of the old "save vs poison or die" rule. Sadly, said spider missed both attacks before the party finished squishing it :(
Nonetheless, D&D 1st ed had exactly one sex-based limiter, according to you due to statistical limitations on extreme athletic performance. No similar limitations existed for endurance, speed or agility. It seems silly to include just that one rule then, especially since it only applied to extreme cases anyway. What good did it do?
We have to look at it as a sign of the times. There is nothing we can do about how it was, just enjoy that such things aren't a factor in the game anymore.
Interesting fact though, Half-Orc females could get 18 STR. The most interesting thing about 1e was the weakest human (3) was far weaker than the weakest say, Dwarf (8) or Halfling (6). The most feeble human (3) was FAR FAR less tough than the bottom of the Dwarf community (12).
Again, it's an artifact of the times.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Not 1st edition lately. It’s been years now. But I’m a little different. I grew up with 2e, and never went beyond it. I despised 3e and it soured me. I’ve ignored virtually everything storyline-wise as well (in my brain, anything that happened after 2e didn’t happen.) Nu D&D just doesn’t appeal to me, so if there’s something I read and like from later editions, I take it and adapt it to 2e.
Not 1st edition lately. It’s been years now. But I’m a little different. I grew up with 2e, and never went beyond it. I despised 3e and it soured me. I’ve ignored virtually everything storyline-wise as well (in my brain, anything that happened after 2e didn’t happen.) Nu D&D just doesn’t appeal to me, so if there’s something I read and like from later editions, I take it and adapt it to 2e.
No problem there. Some folk feel the same way about Wrath of Khan =)
There are many games in which older versions for whatever reason "feel" better or play better.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I think the weird part of the convo is that many here are talking about level limits, max str for women, etc, and sure they were in the book, but nobody used them.
Rule 0 has existed since day one, and was used far more freely than it is by new players who seem entirely focused on the rules. There is nothing I dislike more than people rummaging through books for a rule. Let the DM make the call, check the rule after the game, then adjust as the dm see's fit. The rules are what the dm sets, not what the book says.
About a year and a half ago a few friends and I got nostalgic about the old days and we decided, screw it, let's do a one shot old school style. We used 1st edition B/X rules (classic Red Box), played it straight and ran Village of Homlett. We figured it would be a fun beer and pretzel night, something to have a good laugh about. No one in a million years thought that it would be anything more then that.
It took exactly one session for us to effectively dump 5e permanently and completely abandon modern D&D for what I think is pretty much going to be forever. A year and a half later, everyone in the group has sold their books, books we couldn't sell, we gave away. I don't see anyone in this group ever going back to modern D&D again, it's pretty much dead to us.
Certainly not what we expected to happen, I thought perhaps at best it was going to be a fun trek down memory lane, but it turned into a complete 180.
Today we do still play other old school systems and mess with various OSR games, but the primary game is B/X and AD&D.
I gave my AD&D books to my teenage nephew some years ago. I regret doing so. I should be asking if he still uses them. While no doubt there are some aspects of old school stuff I am not a fan of (THACO was just dumb), overall, it is a matter of theme that is better in the older editions.
How was thac0 dumb? Subtract your roll from your thac0, thats the lowest ac you hit. Its pretty damn simple.
About a year and a half ago a few friends and I got nostalgic about the old days and we decided, screw it, let's do a one shot old school style. We used 1st edition B/X rules (classic Red Box), played it straight and ran Village of Homlett. We figured it would be a fun beer and pretzel night, something to have a good laugh about. No one in a million years thought that it would be anything more then that.
It took exactly one session for us to effectively dump 5e permanently and completely abandon modern D&D for what I think is pretty much going to be forever. A year and a half later, everyone in the group has sold their books, books we couldn't sell, we gave away. I don't see anyone in this group ever going back to modern D&D again, it's pretty much dead to us.
Certainly not what we expected to happen, I thought perhaps at best it was going to be a fun trek down memory lane, but it turned into a complete 180.
Today we do still play other old school systems and mess with various OSR games, but the primary game is B/X and AD&D.
I gave my AD&D books to my teenage nephew some years ago. I regret doing so. I should be asking if he still uses them. While no doubt there are some aspects of old school stuff I am not a fan of (THACO was just dumb), overall, it is a matter of theme that is better in the older editions.
How was thac0 dumb? Subtract your roll from your thac0, thats the lowest ac you hit. Its pretty damn simple.
Simple math? RUN AWAY!!!! (I agree with you... never understood the issue either)
I think what Vince means is it’s straight up counterintuitive, a 19 should hit a 18, not a 2, but idk.
About a year and a half ago a few friends and I got nostalgic about the old days and we decided, screw it, let's do a one shot old school style. We used 1st edition B/X rules (classic Red Box), played it straight and ran Village of Homlett. We figured it would be a fun beer and pretzel night, something to have a good laugh about. No one in a million years thought that it would be anything more then that.
It took exactly one session for us to effectively dump 5e permanently and completely abandon modern D&D for what I think is pretty much going to be forever. A year and a half later, everyone in the group has sold their books, books we couldn't sell, we gave away. I don't see anyone in this group ever going back to modern D&D again, it's pretty much dead to us.
Certainly not what we expected to happen, I thought perhaps at best it was going to be a fun trek down memory lane, but it turned into a complete 180.
Today we do still play other old school systems and mess with various OSR games, but the primary game is B/X and AD&D.
I gave my AD&D books to my teenage nephew some years ago. I regret doing so. I should be asking if he still uses them. While no doubt there are some aspects of old school stuff I am not a fan of (THACO was just dumb), overall, it is a matter of theme that is better in the older editions.
How was thac0 dumb? Subtract your roll from your thac0, thats the lowest ac you hit. Its pretty damn simple.
Simple math? RUN AWAY!!!! (I agree with you... never understood the issue either)
I think what Vince means is it’s straight up counterintuitive, a 19 should hit a 18, not a 2, but idk.
Plus I heard many people reversed THAC0 back in the day for this exact reason.
About a year and a half ago a few friends and I got nostalgic about the old days and we decided, screw it, let's do a one shot old school style. We used 1st edition B/X rules (classic Red Box), played it straight and ran Village of Homlett. We figured it would be a fun beer and pretzel night, something to have a good laugh about. No one in a million years thought that it would be anything more then that.
It took exactly one session for us to effectively dump 5e permanently and completely abandon modern D&D for what I think is pretty much going to be forever. A year and a half later, everyone in the group has sold their books, books we couldn't sell, we gave away. I don't see anyone in this group ever going back to modern D&D again, it's pretty much dead to us.
Certainly not what we expected to happen, I thought perhaps at best it was going to be a fun trek down memory lane, but it turned into a complete 180.
Today we do still play other old school systems and mess with various OSR games, but the primary game is B/X and AD&D.
I gave my AD&D books to my teenage nephew some years ago. I regret doing so. I should be asking if he still uses them. While no doubt there are some aspects of old school stuff I am not a fan of (THACO was just dumb), overall, it is a matter of theme that is better in the older editions.
How was thac0 dumb? Subtract your roll from your thac0, thats the lowest ac you hit. Its pretty damn simple.
Simple math? RUN AWAY!!!! (I agree with you... never understood the issue either)
I think what Vince means is it’s straight up counterintuitive, a 19 should hit a 18, not a 2, but idk.
Plus I heard many people reversed THAC0 back in the day for this exact reason.
This was also a simple approach that worked well. My point was its not half as complex as I often hear it is on D&D forums, like it was a magical rule nobody understood. It was simple.
I been playing since around Aug, 1980. No. AD&D was good, but I moved on. As you being a DM longer than jobs. The average person changes jobs 7 times in their life according the experts.
I have only played 5e, what's THACO, the ability scores?, like MSH's FASERIP?
THACO = To Hit Armour Class 0. The lower your AC, the harder to hit. Tricked out chars with crazy armour would have scores well into the negatives. It was counter - intuitive, but was easy enough to figure out...unless you flipped the page and factored in all the potential modifiers based on the type of armour (plate, chain, banded, leather, etc).
My guys gave up playing with the charts of modifiers, since it bogged the game down so much. The current system is much cleaner, and easier to play.
Thanks
He is making it sound far more complex than it is. Its actually really simple. Roll the dice, subtract that # from your thac0 score, thats the best armor you hit.
Thaco was easier than that. Just grab the DM screen, look at the character and level. On you notebook paper at the bottom put the chart 10 to neg 10. Then fill in what you needed. Didn't everyone do that?
Thaco was easier than that. Just grab the DM screen, look at the character and level. On you notebook paper at the bottom put the chart 10 to neg 10. Then fill in what you needed. Didn't everyone do that?
The thing about Thac0 that still strikes me today is that when we first played 1st edition B/X in about 85' is about all I remember about it. By around 86-87 we had reversed all the math and started using a To Hit Roll which was effectively introduced in 3e. I think I was about 13-14 when we figured this out and we never used THAC0 again after that. I don't really get why anyone would still use it today even if you're still running 1e.
Since I've helped my kids and nephews break into 5e, I've been getting nostalgic for those crazy and dangerous days of 1st edition. No Dwarf Paladins, no funky Dragon-like races, pure AD&D. Has anyone else been tempted to go and revisit the old stomping grounds of '78 to '84?
To all the 5e folks, my question for you: Are you wondering what all the hype is about?
One crazy thought that was revealed to me recently: During my playing years, I was a DM longer than any single job I've held since I left school... what does that say I wonder.
I was sort of there. I was absolutely resistant to anything after 2e. Mainly because when I saw 3e (or 3.5e) I was completely confused. It said D&D but the mechanics were anything but. I left and came back when I heard about 4e, and that was even worse. What were all of those pluses for the attacks? I left again until 5e. I decided to check it out since Youtube was a buzz about it being backwards compatible to older versions of D&D. Oops. I think they meant 3.5 and 4e, not 1 or 2e. So I bounced again and came back by accident, because I was playing a Lich in another RPG and some recommended videos came up about D&D necromancers and Liches. Sparked my curiosity for a bit. But it was hard to go from playing a Demigod in the other game, to being a mere mortal in D&D. So I left and finally came back towards the end of the Playtests, and was very interested in the changes especially to the Monk. After that I started getting over my 1e resistance to Wizard's D&D, fully accepting them. Heck if I am nostalgic, I can just convert some of the old modules to 5e to DM or ask a DM to DM. Right now I am enjoying the Monk.
Since I've helped my kids and nephews break into 5e, I've been getting nostalgic for those crazy and dangerous days of 1st edition. No Dwarf Paladins, no funky Dragon-like races, pure AD&D. Has anyone else been tempted to go and revisit the old stomping grounds of '78 to '84?
To all the 5e folks, my question for you: Are you wondering what all the hype is about?
One crazy thought that was revealed to me recently: During my playing years, I was a DM longer than any single job I've held since I left school... what does that say I wonder.
I was sort of there. I was absolutely resistant to anything after 2e. Mainly because when I saw 3e (or 3.5e) I was completely confused. It said D&D but the mechanics were anything but. I left and came back when I heard about 4e, and that was even worse. What were all of those pluses for the attacks? I left again until 5e. I decided to check it out since Youtube was a buzz about it being backwards compatible to older versions of D&D. Oops. I think they meant 3.5 and 4e, not 1 or 2e. So I bounced again and came back by accident, because I was playing a Lich in another RPG and some recommended videos came up about D&D necromancers and Liches. Sparked my curiosity for a bit. But it was hard to go from playing a Demigod in the other game, to being a mere mortal in D&D. So I left and finally came back towards the end of the Playtests, and was very interested in the changes especially to the Monk. After that I started getting over my 1e resistance to Wizard's D&D, fully accepting them. Heck if I am nostalgic, I can just convert some of the old modules to 5e to DM or ask a DM to DM. Right now I am enjoying the Monk.
I think this is a very common story for old-school D&D players that sort of watched the evolution take place and I can also understand how or why modern gamers who never lived through the classic days of D&D might not understand the attraction of those older systems. Old-school gamers had to contend with pretty heavy-handed changes to the game they love and if you didn't grow up with these old rules and only know the modern rules, I can understand why you would look at those old rules and think them really crazy.
The evolution of the game has not been smooth either. 1e to 2e for example introduced a lot of very unpopular changes to the core of the lore of the game that people didn't like driven by the satanic panic. 3e expanded the games rules architecture exponentially making it a far more complex game and a lot of people didn't like that. 4e broke a lot of sacred cows and people REALLY didn't like that. 5e in my eyes was the first, kind of honest attempt to look at D&D's history of game design holistically and ask the question, what should D&D look like so that there is some consensus between all of these communities? Now like any attempt to bring consensus, it requires a lot of compromise and in a compromise, no one gets exactly what they want, that's physically impossible since very often if not practically always what people want are exact polar opposites, so your only option is to find some middle ground.
I think in this sense 5e is a very successful game, but it does require a kind of leap of faith and some acceptance of the compromises. If you go into it with "I love 1e and hate everything that is not 1e", you're entering it with a complete unwillingness to compromise, so you are not going to like it any more than 3e or 4e. But if you really read the system and understand how, where and why the compromises were made, it's actually not that hard to see how huge of an effort 5e is to make it appealing to everyone, both old school and new school.
There are certain aspects of 5e that are still opposed to old school gamist and narrative ideas, but there is a modularity of the design space where you can make massive changes and bring the playstyle in line with different era's and genres of play. Shadowdark for example shows us an example of how you can take 5e and turn it into a classic dungeon crawling (survival) adventure game. It proves that you can for example remove the skill system entirely and the game is still perfectly functional, you can eliminate sub-classes or limit spell lists. All of these things can be done to the game and it remains a stable system that works well.
To me this is the hallmark of a good system, but the issue in the modern era which has always been an issue in the classic era as well is the idea that "official content" by the publisher that "owns D&D" is considered "cannon" and the idea that official D&D isn't "exactly" how "I think" it should be, means its a terrible system and I hate it. This concept is why people sort of battle it out over what D&D should be. What it amounts to is a refusal to compromise and understand that people play D&D in many different ways and no one is likely to get away with playing D&D as written and get exactly what they want out of it. Inevitably every DM, every group.. is going to make adjustments. For some its minor things like removing X or Y spells or cutting feats. For others its a major change that might require a sub-system variant of 5e like Shadowdark. I think if people just embraced that idea, 5e would be seen as what it is. A modern baseline for playing D&D, a starting point from which you can derive your own version of the game.
For that purpose, even this old guard dog has to admit that when seen through that lens, 5e is actually a pretty excellent game.
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We were down a player on short notice two weeks ago, rather than run the game I had prepared I grabbed my 1980s "red box"; not AD&D, but the old BECMI sets have charm too.
All three players had a good time; a father and his two kids. When a giant crab spider showed up only the dad knew the fear of the old "save vs poison or die" rule. Sadly, said spider missed both attacks before the party finished squishing it :(
We have to look at it as a sign of the times. There is nothing we can do about how it was, just enjoy that such things aren't a factor in the game anymore.
Interesting fact though, Half-Orc females could get 18 STR. The most interesting thing about 1e was the weakest human (3) was far weaker than the weakest say, Dwarf (8) or Halfling (6). The most feeble human (3) was FAR FAR less tough than the bottom of the Dwarf community (12).
Again, it's an artifact of the times.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Not 1st edition lately. It’s been years now. But I’m a little different. I grew up with 2e, and never went beyond it. I despised 3e and it soured me. I’ve ignored virtually everything storyline-wise as well (in my brain, anything that happened after 2e didn’t happen.) Nu D&D just doesn’t appeal to me, so if there’s something I read and like from later editions, I take it and adapt it to 2e.
No problem there. Some folk feel the same way about Wrath of Khan =)
There are many games in which older versions for whatever reason "feel" better or play better.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I have a 29 year AD&D 2e group, and we also play white box and red box one shot dungeon crawls pretty often. Every edition has something to offer.
My second group was playing pathfinder, we only switched to 5e when the 3rd party "Hardcore Mode" supplement came out.
I think the weird part of the convo is that many here are talking about level limits, max str for women, etc, and sure they were in the book, but nobody used them.
Rule 0 has existed since day one, and was used far more freely than it is by new players who seem entirely focused on the rules. There is nothing I dislike more than people rummaging through books for a rule. Let the DM make the call, check the rule after the game, then adjust as the dm see's fit. The rules are what the dm sets, not what the book says.
How was thac0 dumb? Subtract your roll from your thac0, thats the lowest ac you hit. Its pretty damn simple.
I think what Vince means is it’s straight up counterintuitive, a 19 should hit a 18, not a 2, but idk.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Plus I heard many people reversed THAC0 back in the day for this exact reason.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Edit: already covered
This was also a simple approach that worked well. My point was its not half as complex as I often hear it is on D&D forums, like it was a magical rule nobody understood. It was simple.
I been playing since around Aug, 1980. No. AD&D was good, but I moved on. As you being a DM longer than jobs. The average person changes jobs 7 times in their life according the experts.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Thaco was easier than that. Just grab the DM screen, look at the character and level. On you notebook paper at the bottom put the chart 10 to neg 10. Then fill in what you needed. Didn't everyone do that?
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
I am starting a 1E game in case anyone is interested
Don’t forget that magic cloaks, rings, often do not add their bonus to AC when wearing magic armor.
that really sucks for trying to get that AC to be less than 0
Assuming you don’t have that 18 Dex
Yeah, there were lots of save or die encounters in modules designed for levels 1-3.
i wonder if that’s to make players fear insects/spiders/pools/potions/traps
The thing about Thac0 that still strikes me today is that when we first played 1st edition B/X in about 85' is about all I remember about it. By around 86-87 we had reversed all the math and started using a To Hit Roll which was effectively introduced in 3e. I think I was about 13-14 when we figured this out and we never used THAC0 again after that. I don't really get why anyone would still use it today even if you're still running 1e.
lol or play a monk, …falling damage…..what’s that….
we are close to that wall right?
I was sort of there. I was absolutely resistant to anything after 2e. Mainly because when I saw 3e (or 3.5e) I was completely confused. It said D&D but the mechanics were anything but. I left and came back when I heard about 4e, and that was even worse. What were all of those pluses for the attacks? I left again until 5e. I decided to check it out since Youtube was a buzz about it being backwards compatible to older versions of D&D. Oops. I think they meant 3.5 and 4e, not 1 or 2e. So I bounced again and came back by accident, because I was playing a Lich in another RPG and some recommended videos came up about D&D necromancers and Liches. Sparked my curiosity for a bit. But it was hard to go from playing a Demigod in the other game, to being a mere mortal in D&D. So I left and finally came back towards the end of the Playtests, and was very interested in the changes especially to the Monk. After that I started getting over my 1e resistance to Wizard's D&D, fully accepting them. Heck if I am nostalgic, I can just convert some of the old modules to 5e to DM or ask a DM to DM. Right now I am enjoying the Monk.
I think this is a very common story for old-school D&D players that sort of watched the evolution take place and I can also understand how or why modern gamers who never lived through the classic days of D&D might not understand the attraction of those older systems. Old-school gamers had to contend with pretty heavy-handed changes to the game they love and if you didn't grow up with these old rules and only know the modern rules, I can understand why you would look at those old rules and think them really crazy.
The evolution of the game has not been smooth either. 1e to 2e for example introduced a lot of very unpopular changes to the core of the lore of the game that people didn't like driven by the satanic panic. 3e expanded the games rules architecture exponentially making it a far more complex game and a lot of people didn't like that. 4e broke a lot of sacred cows and people REALLY didn't like that. 5e in my eyes was the first, kind of honest attempt to look at D&D's history of game design holistically and ask the question, what should D&D look like so that there is some consensus between all of these communities? Now like any attempt to bring consensus, it requires a lot of compromise and in a compromise, no one gets exactly what they want, that's physically impossible since very often if not practically always what people want are exact polar opposites, so your only option is to find some middle ground.
I think in this sense 5e is a very successful game, but it does require a kind of leap of faith and some acceptance of the compromises. If you go into it with "I love 1e and hate everything that is not 1e", you're entering it with a complete unwillingness to compromise, so you are not going to like it any more than 3e or 4e. But if you really read the system and understand how, where and why the compromises were made, it's actually not that hard to see how huge of an effort 5e is to make it appealing to everyone, both old school and new school.
There are certain aspects of 5e that are still opposed to old school gamist and narrative ideas, but there is a modularity of the design space where you can make massive changes and bring the playstyle in line with different era's and genres of play. Shadowdark for example shows us an example of how you can take 5e and turn it into a classic dungeon crawling (survival) adventure game. It proves that you can for example remove the skill system entirely and the game is still perfectly functional, you can eliminate sub-classes or limit spell lists. All of these things can be done to the game and it remains a stable system that works well.
To me this is the hallmark of a good system, but the issue in the modern era which has always been an issue in the classic era as well is the idea that "official content" by the publisher that "owns D&D" is considered "cannon" and the idea that official D&D isn't "exactly" how "I think" it should be, means its a terrible system and I hate it. This concept is why people sort of battle it out over what D&D should be. What it amounts to is a refusal to compromise and understand that people play D&D in many different ways and no one is likely to get away with playing D&D as written and get exactly what they want out of it. Inevitably every DM, every group.. is going to make adjustments. For some its minor things like removing X or Y spells or cutting feats. For others its a major change that might require a sub-system variant of 5e like Shadowdark. I think if people just embraced that idea, 5e would be seen as what it is. A modern baseline for playing D&D, a starting point from which you can derive your own version of the game.
For that purpose, even this old guard dog has to admit that when seen through that lens, 5e is actually a pretty excellent game.