Since I've helped my kids and nephews break into 5e, I've been getting nostalgic for those crazy and dangerous days of 1st edition. No Dwarf Paladins, no funky Dragon-like races, pure AD&D. Has anyone else been tempted to go and revisit the old stomping grounds of '78 to '84?
To all the 5e folks, my question for you: Are you wondering what all the hype is about?
One crazy thought that was revealed to me recently: During my playing years, I was a DM longer than any single job I've held since I left school... what does that say I wonder.
I can really relate. I introduced my daughter to AD&D back when she was around 9/10ish with the original old books I'd used back at school in the early 80's. She loved rolling characters but was never quite able to convince her friends to play... but it obviously stuck with her as once at Uni she founds friends she could convince to play... and of course they got 5e... now 24 she regularly plays and her DM was saying he never gets to play... so she said her Dad might run an old-school campaign for them... which I am now doing! It blows their mind using AD&D rules lol but it's a lot of fun.
The main challenge initially was that all my books etc. had been lost along the way. But I managed to find PDF's and (Bless 'em) all the players clubbed together to get me some original hard copies of DM & Players handbook (surprisingly expensive these days!). The other challenges for me is that, having been exposed to 5e, the old rules seem clunky... and of course you don't have all the benefits of spell/monster access via D&D beyond etc... But I guess, if you're gonna go Old School... then it's old school all the way!
Honestly, no. I remember my AD&D days very fondly, but I definitely have no interest whatsoever in returning to the rulesets of yore. The adventures (well, some of them anyway), the settings, everything around the rules, I'd be happy to revisit those things - but not the rules.
I started pre '80 with AD&D. I have most of my books on the shelf here in my computer room. I can't shake some of the ideas that were laid down in AD&D and when I see those tropes violated it bothers me. I would love to play in a game that didn't have all the new player races, that followed the narrative of AD&D and all that. But I like the ruleset of 5e as long as folks aren't trying to power game it to avoid any risk whatsoever.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
About a year and a half ago a few friends and I got nostalgic about the old days and we decided, screw it, let's do a one shot old school style. We used 1st edition B/X rules (classic Red Box), played it straight and ran Village of Homlett. We figured it would be a fun beer and pretzel night, something to have a good laugh about. No one in a million years thought that it would be anything more then that.
It took exactly one session for us to effectively dump 5e permanently and completely abandon modern D&D for what I think is pretty much going to be forever. A year and a half later, everyone in the group has sold their books, books we couldn't sell, we gave away. I don't see anyone in this group ever going back to modern D&D again, it's pretty much dead to us.
Certainly not what we expected to happen, I thought perhaps at best it was going to be a fun trek down memory lane, but it turned into a complete 180.
Today we do still play other old school systems and mess with various OSR games, but the primary game is B/X and AD&D.
I gave my AD&D books to my teenage nephew some years ago. I regret doing so. I should be asking if he still uses them. While no doubt there are some aspects of old school stuff I am not a fan of (THACO was just dumb), overall, it is a matter of theme that is better in the older editions.
The memories, people, available time and energy, my age (easily influenced, little responsibility), and the imagination and creative energy it built and fostered, I'm all for it. Give me more!
The system, crunch, rules. It sucked ass and is no where near as elegant and smooth as 5e. I'd despise having to teach new players old D&D.
I dumped my AD&D books, I think... or maybe my mother dumped them when she moved out of her house while I was in grad school (with my permission, I am sure). I had given up in person RP at that point as a lost cause, because my friends who played them with me, and I, had all moved to other parts of the country (later, of the world). Only reason I am playing tabletop again now, is the online tools like Zoom.
I wish I had kept those books. I have gone and re-purchased the Big Four (DMG, PHB, MM, and FF) in reprint from Drive Thru... and as glad as I am to have the reprints, I wish I still had the old, worn-out originals.
The only "originals" I have left are my old 4th ed Champions stuff... the original book of which has, since a few months after its purchase back in like 1990, been falling apart bit by bit. It's almost like a loose-leaf now.
I'd love to play me some old school either B/X or AD&D. But I don't think my fellow gamers would want to. And I'd no doubt get stuck DMing again, which... I'm glad to do this time, but after this campaign is over someone else needs to take a turn.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I cut my teeth on AD&D, and there are some things that I miss (little flavour things, like equipment). While I prefer the 5e system, I definitely have brought back some AD&D stuff.
One thing I miss is poison actually being, you know, poison... in that it can kill you, like arsenic or strychnine. Not that I love the save-or-die thing in general... but poison has been so completely nerfed in D&D it should not be called poison. It's more like being "nauseated" than actually poisoned. Poison needle trap - it just makes you kinda sick to your stomach. You'd have to wonder why anyone would even put one on a chest, given that anyone who tripped it could still just keep going and take everything out of the chest anyway.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
One thing I miss is poison actually being, you know, poison... in that it can kill you, like arsenic or strychnine. Not that I love the save-or-die thing in general... but poison has been so completely nerfed in D&D it should not be called poison. It's more like being "nauseated" than actually poisoned. Poison needle trap - it just makes you kinda sick to your stomach. You'd have to wonder why anyone would even put one on a chest, given that anyone who tripped it could still just keep going and take everything out of the chest anyway.
But they literally won't feel good about it :). There are a number of poisons in the DMG that aren't as lethal as old school, but rather lethal with somewhat of a fighting chance for survival. I'd say any one of the contact or injury poisons would be a good replacement for whatever generic poison that simply makes a PC woozy for a bit.
While I have a lot of great memories of the good ole days I don't miss the old rules. There is no going back. I have bought a lot of 5e conversions for the old modules that are still on my shelves though. We did a revamped Castle Amber months ago with pretty much the same crew that went through it back in the 80's and that was a lot of fun.
I kept all my old Planescape stuff (and even added a few new books to my collection over the years), but it's strictly for the lore. I have absolutely no interest in going back to any previous edition of D&D or 1st edition Pathfinder.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So I got my 3rd player tonight (and it looks like a 4th if I want it) for a new campaign I started. I have told all involved it will be a small group (3 players), with magic items relatively scarce. They know I am a mechanics guy, and run a tough campaign. Reading these posts is inspiring me to have a really hard look at the 5e mechanics and see what I can alter to give the game more of the theme and "edge" of 30 or 40 years ago. I had a look at the 5 torches deep setup, and I think it is a tad simplistic for what I want.
But trying to incorporate more of the old school soul back into this game is something I am going to try. The first step was easy. Vast chunks of the abomination that shall not be named was banned. That has already been made clear to all involved. The next steps, well, some are easy enough. Beefing up poison damage, with new, creative ones, is simple enough. Diseases in fetid swamps and standing water in dungeons, easy enough.
But the real trick will be the detail needed in narration. Big Lizard gave an example a few days ago about a simple barrel. That is where the real effort will be needed, I think.
You're also going to want to look at the resting mechanics. Gritty realism might be the way you want to go.
Or... you can do what was suggested on the "Adventuring day" thread, which I am starting to like... the PCs need to have earned the XP expected between long rests before any rest they take counts as a long one. And roughly 1/3 of that number before a short one.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Twenty-Two Classes! Wow! In the PHB there are only 12 and artificer makes thirteen. Now if you count sub-classes, just from the PHB you get about 32-36? Then adding on Xanathar's Guide you get another 24+?
I recall in AD&D there were Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Magic User, and then the sub classes of Paladin and Ranger, Druid, Assassin and Illusionist. Bard was in the appendix. But, players could multi-class so they could gain abilities to wear armor or cast spells or back-stab or ...
What are the 22 classes in your system, BigLizzy?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Thanks BL and Bio. I do indeed want the game to be tougher, but also follow a more narrative based approach. With 3 players, I have made it clear to all that RP will be required. These guys are not kids. One is 48, one 34, and the youngest 26. The 48 year old I believe can settle into a more Old School Approach, obviously. It will fall on me to ensure something like that happens, besides just the mechanics of the game.
I am pretty much committed to 5e as the basis, but I have 8 pages of House Rules from my current campaign, which will be used. They do add Gritty Realism, to some extent, as they toughen HP recovery, Falling, Jumping, Grappling, Restrained Condition, and how CounterSpell and Dispel Magic work.
I am using the method of falling damage that apparently Gygax wanted, but the printer screwed up and put in the one that has been used forever.
Gygax' falling damage was based something more on how gravity works, so Falling Damage was more exponential, as opposed the linear scale we have now. When the 1st ed went to press, the printer misinterpreted what Gygax wanted, and produced the Linear version.
I use this system:
10 feet d6
20 feet 3d6
30 feet 6d6
40 feet 10d6
50 feet 15d6
and so on.
Players can talk about terminal velocity all they like, but the damage being done is WAY WAY above the hard cap we have now in 5e. Barbarians don't fall 200 feet in my game, hit rocks, dust themselves off, and keep on rolling.
Gygax' falling damage was based something more on how gravity works, so Falling Damage was more exponential, as opposed the linear scale we have now. When the 1st ed went to press, the printer misinterpreted what Gygax wanted, and produced the Linear version.
I use this system:
10 feet d6
20 feet 3d6
30 feet 6d6
40 feet 10d6
50 feet 15d6
and so on.
Players can talk about terminal velocity all they like, but the damage being done is WAY WAY above the hard cap we have now in 5e. Barbarians don't fall 200 feet in my game, hit rocks, dust themselves off, and keep on rolling.
Well the fall distance of about 50 feet will kill most people, at 70+ feet survivability falls to nearly 0%. At 200 feet without something to slow your fall, you are 100% going to die. When you hit the ground, you will basically be a liquid. So strictly speaking, after about 70 feet, there are no rolls, death saves or anything else.. you explode like a water balloon.
Pretty much. And I am OK with that. At 50 feet, without modifiers, expected value of damage is 52. At 70 feet, it is 98. That is still way better than real life, where yeah, you are jam, very quickly.
These are my own modifiers I forgot to post. Given that cliff divers can do over 100 feet, there has to be mitigating factors. I think they should be tougher, but I did get pushback from the players, so compromised some:
Hard Ground/ Rocks: Acrobatics Save DC 20 for 50% damage, fail = 100% Loose Sand or Equivalent: Acrobatics Save DC15 for 40% damage, fail =75% Water or Equivalent: Acrobatics Save DC 10 for 0% damage, fail = 50%
Other terrains' DC will be adjudiated as per situation.
Dropping Items on Targets will have Damage Adjudicated, and Attack Rolls will most certainly be needed. Bombs dropped from the air miss a lot of the time, for good reason.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Since I've helped my kids and nephews break into 5e, I've been getting nostalgic for those crazy and dangerous days of 1st edition. No Dwarf Paladins, no funky Dragon-like races, pure AD&D. Has anyone else been tempted to go and revisit the old stomping grounds of '78 to '84?
To all the 5e folks, my question for you: Are you wondering what all the hype is about?
One crazy thought that was revealed to me recently: During my playing years, I was a DM longer than any single job I've held since I left school... what does that say I wonder.
I can really relate. I introduced my daughter to AD&D back when she was around 9/10ish with the original old books I'd used back at school in the early 80's. She loved rolling characters but was never quite able to convince her friends to play... but it obviously stuck with her as once at Uni she founds friends she could convince to play... and of course they got 5e... now 24 she regularly plays and her DM was saying he never gets to play... so she said her Dad might run an old-school campaign for them... which I am now doing! It blows their mind using AD&D rules lol but it's a lot of fun.
The main challenge initially was that all my books etc. had been lost along the way. But I managed to find PDF's and (Bless 'em) all the players clubbed together to get me some original hard copies of DM & Players handbook (surprisingly expensive these days!). The other challenges for me is that, having been exposed to 5e, the old rules seem clunky... and of course you don't have all the benefits of spell/monster access via D&D beyond etc... But I guess, if you're gonna go Old School... then it's old school all the way!
Honestly, no. I remember my AD&D days very fondly, but I definitely have no interest whatsoever in returning to the rulesets of yore. The adventures (well, some of them anyway), the settings, everything around the rules, I'd be happy to revisit those things - but not the rules.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I'm playing in a second edition game right now.
I started pre '80 with AD&D. I have most of my books on the shelf here in my computer room. I can't shake some of the ideas that were laid down in AD&D and when I see those tropes violated it bothers me. I would love to play in a game that didn't have all the new player races, that followed the narrative of AD&D and all that. But I like the ruleset of 5e as long as folks aren't trying to power game it to avoid any risk whatsoever.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I gave my AD&D books to my teenage nephew some years ago. I regret doing so. I should be asking if he still uses them. While no doubt there are some aspects of old school stuff I am not a fan of (THACO was just dumb), overall, it is a matter of theme that is better in the older editions.
The memories, people, available time and energy, my age (easily influenced, little responsibility), and the imagination and creative energy it built and fostered, I'm all for it. Give me more!
The system, crunch, rules. It sucked ass and is no where near as elegant and smooth as 5e. I'd despise having to teach new players old D&D.
All things Lich - DM tips, tricks, and other creative shenanigans
I dumped my AD&D books, I think... or maybe my mother dumped them when she moved out of her house while I was in grad school (with my permission, I am sure). I had given up in person RP at that point as a lost cause, because my friends who played them with me, and I, had all moved to other parts of the country (later, of the world). Only reason I am playing tabletop again now, is the online tools like Zoom.
I wish I had kept those books. I have gone and re-purchased the Big Four (DMG, PHB, MM, and FF) in reprint from Drive Thru... and as glad as I am to have the reprints, I wish I still had the old, worn-out originals.
The only "originals" I have left are my old 4th ed Champions stuff... the original book of which has, since a few months after its purchase back in like 1990, been falling apart bit by bit. It's almost like a loose-leaf now.
I'd love to play me some old school either B/X or AD&D. But I don't think my fellow gamers would want to. And I'd no doubt get stuck DMing again, which... I'm glad to do this time, but after this campaign is over someone else needs to take a turn.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I cut my teeth on AD&D, and there are some things that I miss (little flavour things, like equipment). While I prefer the 5e system, I definitely have brought back some AD&D stuff.
One thing I miss is poison actually being, you know, poison... in that it can kill you, like arsenic or strychnine. Not that I love the save-or-die thing in general... but poison has been so completely nerfed in D&D it should not be called poison. It's more like being "nauseated" than actually poisoned. Poison needle trap - it just makes you kinda sick to your stomach. You'd have to wonder why anyone would even put one on a chest, given that anyone who tripped it could still just keep going and take everything out of the chest anyway.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
But they literally won't feel good about it :). There are a number of poisons in the DMG that aren't as lethal as old school, but rather lethal with somewhat of a fighting chance for survival. I'd say any one of the contact or injury poisons would be a good replacement for whatever generic poison that simply makes a PC woozy for a bit.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
While I have a lot of great memories of the good ole days I don't miss the old rules. There is no going back. I have bought a lot of 5e conversions for the old modules that are still on my shelves though. We did a revamped Castle Amber months ago with pretty much the same crew that went through it back in the 80's and that was a lot of fun.
I kept all my old Planescape stuff (and even added a few new books to my collection over the years), but it's strictly for the lore. I have absolutely no interest in going back to any previous edition of D&D or 1st edition Pathfinder.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So I got my 3rd player tonight (and it looks like a 4th if I want it) for a new campaign I started. I have told all involved it will be a small group (3 players), with magic items relatively scarce. They know I am a mechanics guy, and run a tough campaign. Reading these posts is inspiring me to have a really hard look at the 5e mechanics and see what I can alter to give the game more of the theme and "edge" of 30 or 40 years ago. I had a look at the 5 torches deep setup, and I think it is a tad simplistic for what I want.
But trying to incorporate more of the old school soul back into this game is something I am going to try. The first step was easy. Vast chunks of the abomination that shall not be named was banned. That has already been made clear to all involved. The next steps, well, some are easy enough. Beefing up poison damage, with new, creative ones, is simple enough. Diseases in fetid swamps and standing water in dungeons, easy enough.
But the real trick will be the detail needed in narration. Big Lizard gave an example a few days ago about a simple barrel. That is where the real effort will be needed, I think.
You're also going to want to look at the resting mechanics. Gritty realism might be the way you want to go.
Or... you can do what was suggested on the "Adventuring day" thread, which I am starting to like... the PCs need to have earned the XP expected between long rests before any rest they take counts as a long one. And roughly 1/3 of that number before a short one.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Twenty-Two Classes! Wow! In the PHB there are only 12 and artificer makes thirteen. Now if you count sub-classes, just from the PHB you get about 32-36? Then adding on Xanathar's Guide you get another 24+?
I recall in AD&D there were Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Magic User, and then the sub classes of Paladin and Ranger, Druid, Assassin and Illusionist. Bard was in the appendix. But, players could multi-class so they could gain abilities to wear armor or cast spells or back-stab or ...
What are the 22 classes in your system, BigLizzy?
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Thanks BL and Bio. I do indeed want the game to be tougher, but also follow a more narrative based approach. With 3 players, I have made it clear to all that RP will be required. These guys are not kids. One is 48, one 34, and the youngest 26. The 48 year old I believe can settle into a more Old School Approach, obviously. It will fall on me to ensure something like that happens, besides just the mechanics of the game.
I am pretty much committed to 5e as the basis, but I have 8 pages of House Rules from my current campaign, which will be used. They do add Gritty Realism, to some extent, as they toughen HP recovery, Falling, Jumping, Grappling, Restrained Condition, and how CounterSpell and Dispel Magic work.
I am using the method of falling damage that apparently Gygax wanted, but the printer screwed up and put in the one that has been used forever.
What's the original Gygax falling damage method? I had not heard this before.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
It may have been Urban Legend, but I have seen a few different sources. Here are a couple. I have none of the direct documentation.
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/11/articles-of-dragon-falling-damage.html
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/148129/what-would-be-the-game-balance-implications-for-using-the-gygax-method-for-apply
Gygax' falling damage was based something more on how gravity works, so Falling Damage was more exponential, as opposed the linear scale we have now. When the 1st ed went to press, the printer misinterpreted what Gygax wanted, and produced the Linear version.
I use this system:
10 feet d6
20 feet 3d6
30 feet 6d6
40 feet 10d6
50 feet 15d6
and so on.
Players can talk about terminal velocity all they like, but the damage being done is WAY WAY above the hard cap we have now in 5e. Barbarians don't fall 200 feet in my game, hit rocks, dust themselves off, and keep on rolling.
Pretty much. And I am OK with that. At 50 feet, without modifiers, expected value of damage is 52. At 70 feet, it is 98. That is still way better than real life, where yeah, you are jam, very quickly.
These are my own modifiers I forgot to post. Given that cliff divers can do over 100 feet, there has to be mitigating factors. I think they should be tougher, but I did get pushback from the players, so compromised some:
Hard Ground/ Rocks: Acrobatics Save DC 20 for 50% damage, fail = 100%
Loose Sand or Equivalent: Acrobatics Save DC15 for 40% damage, fail =75%
Water or Equivalent: Acrobatics Save DC 10 for 0% damage, fail = 50%
Other terrains' DC will be adjudiated as per situation.
Dropping Items on Targets will have Damage Adjudicated, and Attack Rolls will most certainly be needed. Bombs dropped from the air miss a lot of the time, for good reason.