So, don't get me wrong, I don't think the monster races from Volvo's are meant to be balanced, but I feel like the Orc Race option got really kinda screwed over and was curious if anyone could provide me with some details.
So the Orc Race has a feature called Agrressive which I am assuming works like the Tabaxi feature Feline Agility in that it lets you double your base movement for that round. That is a really strong feature and I love the idea of an Orc Barbarian.
My concern comes from balance. The Orc gets a -2 Intelligence, where the Tabaxi does not get a negative modifier for its ability. And being able to use the feature once a round instead of every other round that seems drastic. The Kobold gets a -2 strength, but I think a lot of people don't take into account how strong Grovel, Cower, and Beg and Pack Tactics really are.
Also, don't get me wrong, I love the negative -2 intelligence to the Orc Race, I think it is very fitting. But I am just not sure why you would choose the Orc Race over something like a Goliath or even just the Half-Orc Race.
So I guess my question is Aggressive really that good and I am just underthinking it? Or is my initial understanding, the race isn't meant to be balanced against others because it is a Monster Race?
EDIT: Honestly, Why doesn't the Orc Race get at least one of the two features from the Half-Orc Race Relentless Endurance Or Savage Attacks. Adding either of those features to the base Orc Race would make the race seem more balanced given it's -2 Intelligence. Even looking at it more, I think both Relentless Endurance and Savage Attack outweighs Aggressive. So even Half-Orc has the same theme but with better features and no negative attribute.
My girlfriend gave this class a go playing as a Paladin dedicated to Gruumsh. It was quite an interesting concept and she did enjoy playing it.
I think people tend to look at the stats of creatures and immediately begin thinking of the numbers in their heads for classes, rather than thinking about what kind of roleplaying concept they could get from playing an orc. Sure, a half-orc is intimidating but what are people going to say to a huge, broad-shouldered git standing at the bar with its sausage-like fingers holding on to a flagon that appears like a tea cup in its fingers?
I was rather "eh" on the -2 intelligence side but the orc's background does make sense for such a huge lumbering brute. Comparing this race to the Goliath, for example, does make one pause and wonder why one gets certain benefits over the other. Taking in to account of the Tabaxi's 'Feline Agility' in this as well...
Tabaxi, Feline Agility: Your reflexes and agility allow you to move with a burst of speed. When you move on your turn in combat, you can double your speed until the end of the turn. Once you use this trait, you can’t use it again until you move 0 feet on one of your turns. <--- This bold spot is important, you're essentially sitting ducks for an entire turn until the enemy catches up with you depending on the situation.
Goliath, Stone's Endurance: You can focus yourself to occasionally shrug off injury. When you take damage, you can use your reaction to roll a d12. Add your Constitution modifier to the number rolled, and reduce the damage by that total. After you use this trait, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest. <--- The balancing trait to this race and the reason there are no deficits to the Goliath's stats, I would bet.
Orc, Aggressive: As a bonus action, you can move up to your speed toward an enemy of your choice that you can see or hear. You must end this move closer to the enemy than you started. <--- Yes, it's not quite the 'Dash' action as some races (like the Goblin) might have, but it's got this going for it. You're a huge juggernaut of meat that won't stop the pain train. You don't need to stop on your turn like the Tabaxi and you don't need to rest after using it like the Goliath. It's all depending on how you see it in situations.
Overall, I believe the race has something going for it. I wouldn't mind seeing an article about this on the front page of DND Beyond and how it could be used effectively.
Starting off, I agree with you that this Race has some amazing RP value to it. My problem is mechanically it doesn't live up to that role play as well as other races would. I'll get back to this, I want to go over a few of the other points you made.
Tabaxi, Feline Agility. I am not going to Lie, I've never used this feature to flee combat and never took it this way... I actually always used it, in the same way, I would have used Aggressive to get my Tabaxi into a fight not out of it. I always used it to close distances, not ot make them. Once I was in a fight, I would often have been stood still for a few rounds before trying to close the gap of another enemy. So I can see where we differ on this and how you came to your conclusion.
Goliath, was actually a bad example because it doesn't have any of the RP or mechanics that would help me play a menacing Orc. So I 100% say you have a valid point and reasoning here.
You skipped over the most important Comparision... Half-Orc and Orc. Here is where I'll try to make my point. Mechanically the Half-Orc outshines the Orc by far. It not only avoids the -2 intelligence modifier, but it also gets two amazing abilities Relentless Endurance and Savage Attack. As much as I love the idea of Aggressive I just don't feel like it holds so much value to justify a -2 modifier to an ability score. I personally would prefer Relentless Endurance or Savage Attack over it.
Lastly from an RP standpoint, you are right, there is something about playing an Orc that no other race is going to be able to match. My problem comes down to the numbers and I can see the flaw in my issue. I just wish the Orc had at least one of the abilities from the half-orc and in my opinion, it would be far more of a balanced race than it is currently...
Look at me trying to talk balance when Variant Human is a thing. lol
I think it might be worth making it a homebrew rule then to be able to swap out Aggressive for one of the feats that the Half-orc gets if one was to play as an Orc, in this case. I do understand where people are coming from when comparing these two races with each other.
I do hope it's something that they make an actual rule in the future regarding these two races (Half/Orc and Orc), being able to trade their abilities back and forth. I do very much enjoy the concept of having huge, tanky Orcs but Half-Orcs will honestly always be the better option for most people which is more than understandable.
In my next game with the DM, I might discuss the idea of being able to either swap out racial feats or maybe use homebrew options - potentially having a peruse of the DMs Guild for any fixes. Volo's Complete Subrace Handbook is an awesome one to look in to, it gives some of the standard non-subrace types on DND Beyond (Orc, Goblin, etc) a bit more variation and reason to play.
Let's hope that whoever designs these races in the future try and learn from their mistakes. And give us some meaningful characters to play with.
Unfortunately, this design decision might have been intentional. They even say outright in the PHB that half-orcs are generally considered superior leaders within orc communities compared to full orcs. So they did the inverse of what they did for the half-elves, which share some of the same traits as their full elven relatives and denied the full orc comparably good qualities to the half-orc. This general direction of lore and mechanics reflects the lore inherited/copied from Tolkien which stated that orcs are an inherently corrupted race and therefore are supposed to be crappier than most others. Compare this to how the elves, the race that is portrayed as being more agile, more magical, and nobler than most other races get to have multiple weapon proficiencies, don't need to sleep, and get a sub-class or two exclusively to themselves. There's some rather unambiguous dev favoritism going on here.
Interesting, I don't remember reading this "half-orcs are generally considered superior leaders within orc communities compared to full orcs." but given it's true that makes a lot of sense... but it still feels like such an odd thing to do an RPG game.
Even using your example from Elf to Half-Elf, I could easily pick either and feel as though I am not losing or picking a lesser race option... But between the Half-Orc and the Orc, I feel as though you are doing yourself a disservice picking Orc.
Interesting, I don't remember reading this "half-orcs are generally considered superior leaders within orc communities compared to full orcs." but given it's true that makes a lot of sense... but it still feels like such an odd thing to do an RPG game.
Even using your example from Elf to Half-Elf, I could easily pick either and feel as though I am not losing or picking a lesser race option... But between the Half-Orc and the Orc, I feel as though you are doing yourself a disservice picking Orc.
Says so right here in fact that half-orcs are generally considered superior to their full orc relations. While a statement of fictional lore in a tabletop RPG where a lot of DMs homebrew does not necessarily reflect the state of the hobby, this kind of thing does indicate some tragic racialized thinking on the part of the people who put these race mechanic choices together and (re)printed the lore in there. All of this information put together is pretty demonstrative that a racial hierarchy of Elves > Humans > Orcs is still very much alive and well.
This is exactly why the stuff about getting rid of race-based ability scores (per James Haeck's article in August) does not actually address the issues of racism in D&D: it's baked in via mechanics & lore even more than via stats.
Just click on articles for August. It had close to a thousand comments from people arguing over whether getting rid of racial ability scores would substantially change the play that characters and NPCs are played.
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So, don't get me wrong, I don't think the monster races from Volvo's are meant to be balanced, but I feel like the Orc Race option got really kinda screwed over and was curious if anyone could provide me with some details.
So the Orc Race has a feature called Agrressive which I am assuming works like the Tabaxi feature Feline Agility in that it lets you double your base movement for that round. That is a really strong feature and I love the idea of an Orc Barbarian.
My concern comes from balance. The Orc gets a -2 Intelligence, where the Tabaxi does not get a negative modifier for its ability. And being able to use the feature once a round instead of every other round that seems drastic. The Kobold gets a -2 strength, but I think a lot of people don't take into account how strong Grovel, Cower, and Beg and Pack Tactics really are.
Also, don't get me wrong, I love the negative -2 intelligence to the Orc Race, I think it is very fitting. But I am just not sure why you would choose the Orc Race over something like a Goliath or even just the Half-Orc Race.
So I guess my question is Aggressive really that good and I am just underthinking it? Or is my initial understanding, the race isn't meant to be balanced against others because it is a Monster Race?
EDIT: Honestly, Why doesn't the Orc Race get at least one of the two features from the Half-Orc Race Relentless Endurance Or Savage Attacks. Adding either of those features to the base Orc Race would make the race seem more balanced given it's -2 Intelligence. Even looking at it more, I think both Relentless Endurance and Savage Attack outweighs Aggressive. So even Half-Orc has the same theme but with better features and no negative attribute.
I agree. The orc is pretty underwhelming.
Like I was about to ask, can I just play an Orc, but use the Half Orc stats. lol
Then you are probably reading the wrong book.
My girlfriend gave this class a go playing as a Paladin dedicated to Gruumsh. It was quite an interesting concept and she did enjoy playing it.
I think people tend to look at the stats of creatures and immediately begin thinking of the numbers in their heads for classes, rather than thinking about what kind of roleplaying concept they could get from playing an orc. Sure, a half-orc is intimidating but what are people going to say to a huge, broad-shouldered git standing at the bar with its sausage-like fingers holding on to a flagon that appears like a tea cup in its fingers?
I was rather "eh" on the -2 intelligence side but the orc's background does make sense for such a huge lumbering brute. Comparing this race to the Goliath, for example, does make one pause and wonder why one gets certain benefits over the other. Taking in to account of the Tabaxi's 'Feline Agility' in this as well...
Tabaxi, Feline Agility: Your reflexes and agility allow you to move with a burst of speed. When you move on your turn in combat, you can double your speed until the end of the turn. Once you use this trait, you can’t use it again until you move 0 feet on one of your turns. <---
This bold spot is important, you're essentially sitting ducks for an entire turn until the enemy catches up with you depending on the situation.
Goliath, Stone's Endurance: You can focus yourself to occasionally shrug off injury. When you take damage, you can use your reaction to roll a d12. Add your Constitution modifier to the number rolled, and reduce the damage by that total. After you use this trait, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest. <--- The balancing trait to this race and the reason there are no deficits to the Goliath's stats, I would bet.
Orc, Aggressive: As a bonus action, you can move up to your speed toward an enemy of your choice that you can see or hear. You must end this move closer to the enemy than you started. <--- Yes, it's not quite the 'Dash' action as some races (like the Goblin) might have, but it's got this going for it. You're a huge juggernaut of meat that won't stop the pain train. You don't need to stop on your turn like the Tabaxi and you don't need to rest after using it like the Goliath. It's all depending on how you see it in situations.
Overall, I believe the race has something going for it. I wouldn't mind seeing an article about this on the front page of DND Beyond and how it could be used effectively.
Starting off, I agree with you that this Race has some amazing RP value to it. My problem is mechanically it doesn't live up to that role play as well as other races would. I'll get back to this, I want to go over a few of the other points you made.
Tabaxi, Feline Agility. I am not going to Lie, I've never used this feature to flee combat and never took it this way... I actually always used it, in the same way, I would have used Aggressive to get my Tabaxi into a fight not out of it. I always used it to close distances, not ot make them. Once I was in a fight, I would often have been stood still for a few rounds before trying to close the gap of another enemy. So I can see where we differ on this and how you came to your conclusion.
Goliath, was actually a bad example because it doesn't have any of the RP or mechanics that would help me play a menacing Orc. So I 100% say you have a valid point and reasoning here.
You skipped over the most important Comparision... Half-Orc and Orc. Here is where I'll try to make my point. Mechanically the Half-Orc outshines the Orc by far. It not only avoids the -2 intelligence modifier, but it also gets two amazing abilities Relentless Endurance and Savage Attack. As much as I love the idea of Aggressive I just don't feel like it holds so much value to justify a -2 modifier to an ability score. I personally would prefer Relentless Endurance or Savage Attack over it.
Lastly from an RP standpoint, you are right, there is something about playing an Orc that no other race is going to be able to match. My problem comes down to the numbers and I can see the flaw in my issue. I just wish the Orc had at least one of the abilities from the half-orc and in my opinion, it would be far more of a balanced race than it is currently...
Look at me trying to talk balance when Variant Human is a thing. lol
I think it might be worth making it a homebrew rule then to be able to swap out Aggressive for one of the feats that the Half-orc gets if one was to play as an Orc, in this case. I do understand where people are coming from when comparing these two races with each other.
I do hope it's something that they make an actual rule in the future regarding these two races (Half/Orc and Orc), being able to trade their abilities back and forth. I do very much enjoy the concept of having huge, tanky Orcs but Half-Orcs will honestly always be the better option for most people which is more than understandable.
In my next game with the DM, I might discuss the idea of being able to either swap out racial feats or maybe use homebrew options - potentially having a peruse of the DMs Guild for any fixes. Volo's Complete Subrace Handbook is an awesome one to look in to, it gives some of the standard non-subrace types on DND Beyond (Orc, Goblin, etc) a bit more variation and reason to play.
Let's hope that whoever designs these races in the future try and learn from their mistakes. And give us some meaningful characters to play with.
(Oh lord the Variant Human ;) )
I don't see a problem with this. Just say he's an orc.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Unfortunately, this design decision might have been intentional. They even say outright in the PHB that half-orcs are generally considered superior leaders within orc communities compared to full orcs. So they did the inverse of what they did for the half-elves, which share some of the same traits as their full elven relatives and denied the full orc comparably good qualities to the half-orc. This general direction of lore and mechanics reflects the lore inherited/copied from Tolkien which stated that orcs are an inherently corrupted race and therefore are supposed to be crappier than most others. Compare this to how the elves, the race that is portrayed as being more agile, more magical, and nobler than most other races get to have multiple weapon proficiencies, don't need to sleep, and get a sub-class or two exclusively to themselves. There's some rather unambiguous dev favoritism going on here.
Interesting, I don't remember reading this "half-orcs are generally considered superior leaders within orc communities compared to full orcs." but given it's true that makes a lot of sense... but it still feels like such an odd thing to do an RPG game.
Even using your example from Elf to Half-Elf, I could easily pick either and feel as though I am not losing or picking a lesser race option... But between the Half-Orc and the Orc, I feel as though you are doing yourself a disservice picking Orc.
Says so right here in fact that half-orcs are generally considered superior to their full orc relations. While a statement of fictional lore in a tabletop RPG where a lot of DMs homebrew does not necessarily reflect the state of the hobby, this kind of thing does indicate some tragic racialized thinking on the part of the people who put these race mechanic choices together and (re)printed the lore in there. All of this information put together is pretty demonstrative that a racial hierarchy of Elves > Humans > Orcs is still very much alive and well.
This is exactly why the stuff about getting rid of race-based ability scores (per James Haeck's article in August) does not actually address the issues of racism in D&D: it's baked in via mechanics & lore even more than via stats.
You wouldn't happen to remember the article, I would love to read that
Just click on articles for August. It had close to a thousand comments from people arguing over whether getting rid of racial ability scores would substantially change the play that characters and NPCs are played.