So last session I saw our DM fudging dice rolls, from where i sit i can see behind the screen a bit. I don't usually pay attention to what he has going on back there but i wasn't even in this combat so i was kinda bored. He went to attack one of the other players who has a 20 AC and a cloak of displacement so the DM rolls at disadvantage. DM rolled two 20 sided didn't see the other dice but the one i saw was an 8, then DM says critical hit. Player mentioned disadvantage and the DM said he had forgotten so rolls again but still says it hits just not critical, don't know what he rolled. He then proceeds to roll two 20 sided die and tells him it's 27 damage, we were fighting some sort of wisp things. Later I notice that he did it again with a trap (with a DC of 21) saw him roll some random dice and then not even look at it and gave us all 30 damage, whatever doesn't bother us too much we are level 8.
The other concern i had was in another room we are supposedly in an anti magic field, then he describes to a player who has special vision that the walls are actually different some type of illusion and when touched you have to make a wisdom save or become catatonic. What happened to the anti magic? I tried testing magic out by using druidcraft but he says its an anti magic zone no magic/magic items work. This also seems to be a pattern for him, he is constantly describing contradicting circumstances on the fly just to make things more irritating for us. I think he is trying to make it more difficult, but they are more an irritating inconvenience that don't make sense and slows the story down.
How would i talk to him about my concerns or should i even bring them up?
Maybe bring it up with the DM that you find some of the traps and enemies more tedious than difficult, and not fun. Fun should always be the goal of the game.
I wouldnt worry about the seemingly fudged dice unless it continues to be really obvious, like getting several crits on the high AC PC just to down them. The roll you saw may have initially been made with advantage from some ability of the monster, when the disadvantage was pointed out it may have reminded the DM to negate advantage so he made 1 new roll and used it (just a possibility, keep an eye out for anything else suspicious).
The situation you describe could have one of three possible explanations:
1. Perhaps the DM is inexperienced and simply doesn't know all the rules yet, and is too embarrassed to ask for help at this point. So maybe he's just trying to "fake it til you make it", and hoping that nobody notices. Being a DM is a daunting task, and when the dice start rolling and the table gets crazy, even the best DM can miss something. Maybe he sees the DM chair as a position of prestige and is afraid of losing that position by admitting a need for help.
This possibility is best addressed subtly. Don't call the DM out in front of the group, as that may further embarrass him and make him reconsider the game altogether. It would be best to pull the DM aside quietly, and pretend to ask for "DM tips" from him. Ask him what his technique or strategy is for dice rolling, and for balancing encounters and damage output with the party. You'll be pretending to learn, but what you're really doing is Insight checking your DM. Look for clues to determine whether the DM actually knows the rules, and whether he has any regard for the experience that others at the table are having. If you find that the problem is one of ignorance, offer to provide the needed support. If it's something else... see #3.
2. Perhaps the DM is just lazy. Maybe they know quite well how much damage your party of level 8 characters can handle, so as long as the fights are tough but not TPK-range, then throwing a random number out for damage is just easier and faster than doing dice math. He may justify this to himself as "putting the narrative ahead of the math". Maybe he just wants to keep the game moving at an exciting pace and doesn't want the players to get bored while he adds a bunch of numbers.
In this event, I would recommend asking the other players, each privately, whether they have noticed anything unusual about the dice rolls. If they haven't, and they're happy with the story they're playing in, then maybe it's not such a big problem after all. If they have noticed aberrations, then perhaps someone could recommend that all dice rolls (for players AND the DM) be made in front of the screen. Maybe one dice tray or dice tower in the center of the table that everyone uses.
3. Perhaps the DM is not yet ready to be a DM. Being a good DM is more than just reading the books and buying a DM screen. There's a great deal of maturity and even-temperament required to do the job well. Many inexperienced DMs fall into the error of thinking that the game is "Me versus Them!" They're trying to win, and they see the players as their opponents, and thus can become vindictive and dishonest in their dice rolls. This is bad. This is not what D&D is about. A good DM is merely a guide. He (or she) recognizes the DM position as "first among equals" and humbly acquiesces their own desires for the good of the story. They recognize that the DM and the players are all on the same team, and that the objective is not "to win", but simply to tell a good story and to enjoy the time spent together doing so.
If your DM falls into this vindictive category, then perhaps it's time to ask your fellow players whether you want to continue playing with this DM or whether you all collectively want to explore other options. If you confront the DM, do so as a group. And don't be accusatory about it. Instead, have a discussion about "table rules" and "expectations of play". Explain that the players are making a commitment of time and effort to be there, and that they deserve to play a fair game. Gently remind the DM that this is just a game. It's meant to be fun. If people aren't having fun, they'll find another game.
Either way, it won't be an easy discussion to have. But it'll be worth it in the long run. It's like ripping off a band-aid. It's better to do it quickly and be done with it.
Good luck!
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Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
It's been said here already, but be classy. Don't bring it up in front of the whole group.
One time my DM was doing this sort of thing to me in a game -- I had like an effective armour class of 21 or something, and these orcs kept hitting me, which, to do so without a critical was like 10% on 10% on 10% on 10% et cetera. Had he let me guard against one of the attacks, it wouldn't have been nearly suspicious, because I was relying on defensive duelist. But he was just trying to punish me for being confident about my character's ability to deflect most of the attacks the orcs could throw at us-- after all, the character was built to have a high AC.
What I did was I just mentioned, over a messenger, after the game that it would have been literally more likely for us to win the jackpot in the lottery than that outcome on the dice. He didn't do it again.
But, even if he's fudging the dice (not something to recommend), he's not killing the players off, right? So, is it really a problem?
What you experienced is a type of DMing that doesn't stem from the principle of "trying to keep it exciting", it actually comes from one of the most devious of all types of DM, the "Me versus the players DM". Its a rather cowardly act, something only a crap DM would ever do. A DM should under no circumstance ever roll an attack roll behind the screen.
I call massive bullshit on this. If a DM has a night of very bad rolls it is just fine if he starts to fudge dice to keep it exciting. It doesn't necessarily have to be a DM vs Player mentality at all.
Yeah, sounds familiar. We had a DM that made up all kinds of monster abilities and bonuses and tried to kill a couple characters specifically and was favorable to 2 others. We just stopped playing with him as it was just garbage. We told him about it and he just ignored us. I’d bring it up and if things don’t change then drop the guy. Randomness is one of the things that makes the game great and taking that away diminishes the fun.
The situation the OP describes violates a core tenet of the game. The player glanced behind the screen and what they saw left them dismayed. Kind of like walking into a sausage factory, witnessing the gore and being unsettled at the prospect of now eating their favorite meal. The core crime is not what the DM was doing, it was the player looking behind the screen. This is the same as seeing the selection of minis the DM has set up before the game and knowing that because undead were prevalent they would ensure their spell preparation could deal with undead effectively, or doing a quick bit of reconnaissance in the DMs notebook when she leaves the room to converse privately with the player of the Rogue. That is the cheating going on.
Oh noes! Hawksmoor! DMs are supposed to follow the same rules as the players! It says so on page...! Wait. I know it says it somewhere. Hold on, I need to flip through the books to find that entry... Maybe it was in the last edition? or on that unofficial Sage Advice or Crawford Tweet?
DMs do not have to play by the same rules that govern player characters. For instance, in combat can a DM design a monster that possesses a special action that can be used at the end of player character's action? Yes, those are called Legendary Actions and no PC has canonical access to them. Can the DM grant new abilities to monsters, or remove/alter weaknesses of monsters to represent something new like a alchemically altered Troll that is vulnerable to Cold and Thunder damage instead of Fire and Acid. Yes. The rules exist so that the DM can fairly adjudicate Player Character actions, that is all. Player's often mistake the idea of consistency in fairly adjudicating the actions of the players as a straight jacket that governs outcomes in the game. Player's roll dice to represent both the fickle nature of chance in their intended actions, and to remove...somewhat...the childish cry of "I hit you! No you didn't I ducked!" from our imaginary games as wee children. Players roll dice because they are part of the narrative, DMs roll them for altogether different reasons.
Gygax himself said, "the only reason for a DM to roll dice is for the sound they make." Now, Gygax's style might not be for everyone, but the sentiment remains: dice are fickle masters and one should never give to them sole control over outcome. A player might have an exquisite PC, full of rich potential and thoroughly enmeshed in the game, but if dice are allowed to be tyrants over the narrative, the single troll introduced as a random encounter, that critically hits them and rolls near max damage reducing the PC to zero hps, the next hit and the rend kill that PC outright because of the rules as written for death by massive damage. And because dice must always be followed the DM has no recourse but rule the PC as ripped into bloody chunks of steaming flesh and sprays of blood. A wiser DM knows that the PC is worth more to the story and upon glancing at the dice spins a counter tale of the PC raked and rended brought low by the ferocity of the attack: they are deeply wounded perhaps dying. The Troll howls in bloodlusted fury as it stands over the fallen warrior, the DM looks at the next player, she controls the lithe Tiefling Sorceror and asks her "What will Siobahn do?"
The issue with the scenario I set up and explained was theatrics. The goal is to exercise DM editorial control over dice outcomes in a way that the Players never suspect. Or if they do, make them uncertain if/and when you do it. In one of the last games I ran, I freely admit to altering the dice roll. One of my players has the most outstanding gifts: she ALWAYS wins initiative over the opponents. Not that she runs an Initiative maxed build, she uses a dice tower in the center of the table and rolls exceedingly high in initiative. I, on the other hand, have the opposite luck. If I implemented a initiative optimized Assassin Rogue type the die would refuse to roll higher than a 4. So, I decided totally that this once, the mob got the drop on her PC. It was within the realms of possibility, and was unlikely/impossible to ruin the enjoyment of the table if one time in a hundred rolls the player did not go first. So I rolled behind my screen, made a show of my eyes popping and a quick smile before I scratched down something on my pad. I called out for initiatives and placed their cards on the tree, when it got to the player I put her card near it's usual position at the top of the tree, but the party already knew. I put on my biggest shitfaced grin and put a mob clip at the top. FIST PUMP! It didn't matter to me what that die came up as, I already "knew" it was a 16.
Was I being "adversarial" to do this? I sleep in the same bed as this player. I have for the last 26 years, if she thought I was an adversarial DM, I would have heard about it by now. A LOT!
I've heard some DM's don't even roll damage. They just use the average damage listed in the monster stats.
I myself am guilty of continuing a battle long beyond the point where the monster HP has been depleted, or introducing more unplanned monsters. On the flip side, I've introduced critical fumbles (that affect the outcome of battle) or questionable actions for monsters, or neglected some key monster abilities, just to tone down what seemed like a perfectly reasonable encounter going into the battle.
You peeked behind the DM screen and saw the DM is deciding the outcome of the battles. So the questions now are:
Have the battles been fun before you knew this?
Can you still enjoy battles now knowing the DM fudges numbers to make things fun?
That being said, if the DM is being biased or is giving preferential treatment to some players, then it's time to have a talk with the DM or walk from the table.
I'll pop in here too. From what you described, it doesn't sound like the DM was singling anyone in particular out, and it didn't seem to be any kind of overt attempt to kill PCs just because. So I'd offer a couple of possibilities.
First - as already mentioned, maybe the DM was just having a really crap night rolling dice and he didn't want you guys to feel "ripped off" like it was too easy for you to win, so he was compensating by adjusting the rolls to something more reasonably challenging. (Even the trap could be the same thing. "Jesus, I rolled a pile of friggin ones again - I'll just call it 30 damage, that's about average on this trap.")
The second option is that maybe the encounters he had planned out were proving to be vastly under-leveled for your party. Once combat starts it's really difficult to suddenly change a monster's AC or to-hit bonus to compensate, but it's relatively easy to fudge a few rolls. (And he may not have wanted to say "hang on, let me flip through my Monster MAnual for a second - I need a few more baddies to throw at you all.") Maybe he needed to make the trap nastier than planned to use up a few more of your resources, trying to make a later encounter more challenging. Could be a whole pile of reasons.
So, as long as it didn't seem like the DM was being a jerk to anyone in particular or to the party as a whole, I wouldn't worry about it. :)
What you experienced is a type of DMing that doesn't stem from the principle of "trying to keep it exciting", it actually comes from one of the most devious of all types of DM, the "Me versus the players DM". Its a rather cowardly act, something only a crap DM would ever do. A DM should under no circumstance ever roll an attack roll behind the screen.
I call massive bullshit on this. If a DM has a night of very bad rolls it is just fine if he starts to fudge dice to keep it exciting. It doesn't necessarily have to be a DM vs Player mentality at all.
D&D doesn't become exciting because a DM fakes a roll and decides what sort of result would be exciting. D&D is exciting when a DM says the dragon tries to bite you and rolls the dice on the table.
D&D is a game that is part narrative and part game, we roll for things to keep the story dynamic so it isn't just a guy deciding what happens, but its a group of players making plans, taking actions and then seeing what happens. This idea that DM's have that they can manufacture excitment by Bullshiting players is one of the worst falicies in role-playing. Your not that clever, players are not that stupid and it's pretty bloody rude to make that assumption and treat players at your table like their idiots.
I am not breaking the rules or bullshitting my players. For instance Kerrec mentioned DMs that forgo rolling damage for monsters and apply the average. I have done this, a lot, when I am trying to keep the flow going. I even state when I plan to roll or take the average, and allow the PCs the same option.
The only game I ran in recent memory out in the open and never fudged a roll was ToA. Not a single first or second generation PC finished that adventure. I played the brutality to the fullest, and they never made it to the Soul Monger much less Acerarak. My group hated that level of meat grindiness and likely wished I was more on their side in that one instead of very impartially devouring souls.
D&D doesn't become exciting because a DM fakes a roll and decides what sort of result would be exciting. D&D is exciting when a DM says the dragon tries to bite you and rolls the dice on the table.
It's quite hypocritical to tell me that fudging dice rolls is not the way to have fun, then tell me that rolling dice IS THE WAY to have fun.
If you'd said not everyone finds that fun, I would even have agreed with you. Maybe I would elaborated that at my table, a tough fight is fun. A pushover fight because of probability is an anti-climax, especially when the whole session was building up to that last event. So fudging is worth it for us.
But here you are... telling me the only way to have fun is to roll dice and see what happens.
Should I let my party TPK because I erred buiding an encounter? "Sorry guys, there will be no conclusion to the last 2 years of story because I made a mistake building this encounter and it's a TPK. Lets start a new campaign!?"
I can read my guys pretty well. When they stand up and start pacing, offering advice as their character lies there unconscious and everyone knows the BBEG is hanging on by a thread... when the players feel dread rolling an obvious miss, or stand up and breathe a sigh of relief when the BBEG finally goes down... even though the BBEG should have been dead after the first couple rounds...
I'd say I did a pretty good job of deciding what is exciting when I look at the players and their reactions.
On the flip side, I've ended encounters/puzzles I thought were going to be fun but the players didn't engage in by fudging the dice. Should I have stuck to a boring encounter until it naturally ran it's course, even though I can plainly see I lost the player's engagement?
The part I felt was most germane was the statement that even the Mighty Matt Colville fudges die rolls to alters HP totals, the trick is not to do it a lot. The game is not supposed to be balanced and sometimes it is hard and unfun. Try to make next week better.
I actually agree with Hawksmooron this one - and also immediately thought of a different Matt Colville video about the purpose of the dice, and the DM fuding dice: Fudging Die Rolls, Running the Game #67.
I believe the DM is not bound to the same rules as the Players, and Monsters are not bound to the same rules as the Players either - because the DM is juggling all sorts of other factors - pacing, tone, narrative twists, keeping player tension high, and - quite possibly - DM mistakes ( damn, I made this Homebrew monster waaay to powerful! I need it to miss more, to not TPK here! ).
I recognize that different people have different approaches, but that's my take on it.
To me, the important factor here is why is the DM is fudging die rolls. If the DM is adversarial to the Party, and is "cheating" against the Players, that's a problem. If the DM is fudging in order to correct narrative, or game flow, problems, that's legitimate, IMHO.
What is important is that the Players - especially some styles of Players which prize verisimilitude ( that's a whole other debate ) - don't have the fudging pushed in their face, and thus feel their being prosecuted, or coddled.
Which means that the DM sometimes rolls in secret ( ideally always in secret, so the times you need to "tweak" the results it isn't obvious ), and the Players shouldn't be peeking behind the screen!
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Don’t fudge, either side, it’s wrong, it’s cheating. Period.
Some of my funnest times were when I was rolling just complete crap, as a player and GM. Just let the RNG and the game’s rules play as written. A TPK is possible in any encounter and so is just steamrolling an encounter, but 99% of the time it’s somewhere in between. Cheating on either side robs the group of fun and excitement.
Also brings me to a peeve on some “homebrew” type rules. If you haven’t played or DM’d a group or character to max level, at least once, leave the game be. There are peaks and valleys in character power that are often ruined by homebrew rules. Play the game as written, they got it right (for the most part).
As for looking behind the screen i wasn't trying to be all shady and secretive about it from where i sit i can literally see part of his dice tray without even trying to and i know some DM's fudge rolls but to fudge it to a critical is a bit shady. i only brought this question up because i have noticed a pattern and i think that the other players have as well due to dubious glances toward each other. When we have mentioned things that are odd in the past he tends to get defensive and throws something at us that has a real potential to TPK. We were doing mines of phandelver and we actually killed the green dragon at level 3, he got frustrated and randomly threw an adult dragon at us only to retcon it the next week, then quit for a week or two.
I decided to try my hand at DMing so he could play, I had horrible anxiety but thought i could do it, or at least try. Unfortunately he consistently rolled horrible and ran into rooms and touched items before i explained what he saw. He ran into the middle of a trapped room once, he got a dex save that he failed and was poisoned by a dart then throws a fit saying he would have been looking around, and running up and grabbing animated armor and gets mad when it attacked him first. He then proceeds to email me about all of this again and is being very condescending and rude. I ended up quitting D&D for almost a year after that but missed it so came back.
He says he has been DMing since the 80s. He doesn't go after anyone in particular unless they have a skill or something that is irritating him or preventing him from hitting. For example, my first game i played with him i was a fighter martial archetype and i took protection (vastly underrated) I would use it every chance i got to protect our squishier players and it went with my backstory. Eventually, he would give me penalties such as the monster/bad guy broke my shield arm and it isn't usable. Every now and then it was fine added some flavor and made sense but it became a habit just about every encounter my shield arm would become useless. This was my first time playing D&D so i didn't say anything but i think another player did because he backed off from it for about two weeks.
Combat used to be fun until he started adding all these special effects to the environment. During that last encounter where he fudged the rolls the room was shaking as well as spewing water from 2 walls and the water was freezing instantly as it hit the bottom causing everyone to make dex checks and con saves just to be able to take their turn all while being attacked by these wisp things and whenever our cleric tried to heal something blocked her from doing it or if her magic was offensive it would backfire onto her.
I would have left awhile ago if i had another group but unfortunately I don't. I met this group online through a get together site and i have yet to find another in the area. I am trying to make it work with what i have. I'd rather play rarely fun D&D then no D&D at all, plus the other players are awesome.
I didn't even get past your first big paragraph before deciding that person is not a good player or DM. They seem to be very "me me me" and those types can be very toxic to a group.
As for looking behind the screen i wasn't trying to be all shady and secretive about it from where i sit i can literally see part of his dice tray without even trying to and i know some DM's fudge rolls but to fudge it to a critical is a bit shady. i only brought this question up because i have noticed a pattern and i think that the other players have as well due to dubious glances toward each other. When we have mentioned things that are odd in the past he tends to get defensive and throws something at us that has a real potential to TPK. We were doing mines of phandelver and we actually killed the green dragon at level 3, he got frustrated and randomly threw an adult dragon at us only to retcon it the next week, then quit for a week or two.
I decided to try my hand at DMing so he could play, I had horrible anxiety but thought i could do it, or at least try. Unfortunately he consistently rolled horrible and ran into rooms and touched items before i explained what he saw. He ran into the middle of a trapped room once, he got a dex save that he failed and was poisoned by a dart then throws a fit saying he would have been looking around, and running up and grabbing animated armor and gets mad when it attacked him first. He then proceeds to email me about all of this again and is being very condescending and rude. I ended up quitting D&D for almost a year after that but missed it so came back.
He says he has been DMing since the 80s. He doesn't go after anyone in particular unless they have a skill or something that is irritating him or preventing him from hitting. For example, my first game i played with him i was a fighter martial archetype and i took protection (vastly underrated) I would use it every chance i got to protect our squishier players and it went with my backstory. Eventually, he would give me penalties such as the monster/bad guy broke my shield arm and it isn't usable. Every now and then it was fine added some flavor and made sense but it became a habit just about every encounter my shield arm would become useless. This was my first time playing D&D so i didn't say anything but i think another player did because he backed off from it for about two weeks.
Combat used to be fun until he started adding all these special effects to the environment. During that last encounter where he fudged the rolls the room was shaking as well as spewing water from 2 walls and the water was freezing instantly as it hit the bottom causing everyone to make dex checks and con saves just to be able to take their turn all while being attacked by these wisp things and whenever our cleric tried to heal something blocked her from doing it or if her magic was offensive it would backfire onto her.
I would have left awhile ago if i had another group but unfortunately I don't. I met this group online through a get together site and i have yet to find another in the area. I am trying to make it work with what i have. I'd rather play rarely fun D&D then no D&D at all, plus the other players are awesome.
The situation you presented in this post is different than the first. The dice rolls are the least of the concerns you have presented. If what you have stated is complete and objective, the problem is the dungeon master's ability to balance his roles at the table. The first and most important role is to fairly adjudicate player actions and interactions with the environment. Fairly does *not* mean that they have to be slaves to the dice, but they must ensure that the outcome is consistent and true. As Matt Colville said "What is to be done? The Derro are the Derro. This is the situation." If the DM is actively shutting down player abilities, like the Fighting Style- Protection's ability to impose disadvantage on attack rolls to target's other than the fighter in melee range, because he doesn't like it. Holistically, just from the information now presented, I think the DM is insecure about his ability to run the game, and has not spent enough time with the new edition to really knock the tires off and see what it can do. As such, resorts to crippling your PC's (injuring the shield arm) class ability or wildly fudging rolls. Fudging is a discrete tool, and one that should be used infrequently and only in the interest of the Player's story- *NEVER* against them.
Conversation is supposed to be a great cure-all of social ills. Many of us humans, are however ill at ease in such situations, either uncertain of what to say, or automatically assuming ill-intent and throwing up walls of defense. Nevertheless, I do suggest a conversation be had. The whole group needs to get together and hash this out. I wish you luck, it will not likely be a pleasant conversation on any side. But what is to be done.
This is part of why, as a DM, I don't hide my rolls. I openly roll in view of at least one person. Never hide them or fudge them. The randomness of rolling dice is there to make the encounter as dynamic as possible. Else why even roll?
Every roll changes the story. The DM simply has to come up with what happens on bad rolls. Hell even on good rolls.
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So last session I saw our DM fudging dice rolls, from where i sit i can see behind the screen a bit. I don't usually pay attention to what he has going on back there but i wasn't even in this combat so i was kinda bored. He went to attack one of the other players who has a 20 AC and a cloak of displacement so the DM rolls at disadvantage. DM rolled two 20 sided didn't see the other dice but the one i saw was an 8, then DM says critical hit. Player mentioned disadvantage and the DM said he had forgotten so rolls again but still says it hits just not critical, don't know what he rolled. He then proceeds to roll two 20 sided die and tells him it's 27 damage, we were fighting some sort of wisp things. Later I notice that he did it again with a trap (with a DC of 21) saw him roll some random dice and then not even look at it and gave us all 30 damage, whatever doesn't bother us too much we are level 8.
The other concern i had was in another room we are supposedly in an anti magic field, then he describes to a player who has special vision that the walls are actually different some type of illusion and when touched you have to make a wisdom save or become catatonic. What happened to the anti magic? I tried testing magic out by using druidcraft but he says its an anti magic zone no magic/magic items work. This also seems to be a pattern for him, he is constantly describing contradicting circumstances on the fly just to make things more irritating for us. I think he is trying to make it more difficult, but they are more an irritating inconvenience that don't make sense and slows the story down.
How would i talk to him about my concerns or should i even bring them up?
Maybe bring it up with the DM that you find some of the traps and enemies more tedious than difficult, and not fun. Fun should always be the goal of the game.
I wouldnt worry about the seemingly fudged dice unless it continues to be really obvious, like getting several crits on the high AC PC just to down them. The roll you saw may have initially been made with advantage from some ability of the monster, when the disadvantage was pointed out it may have reminded the DM to negate advantage so he made 1 new roll and used it (just a possibility, keep an eye out for anything else suspicious).
The situation you describe could have one of three possible explanations:
1. Perhaps the DM is inexperienced and simply doesn't know all the rules yet, and is too embarrassed to ask for help at this point. So maybe he's just trying to "fake it til you make it", and hoping that nobody notices. Being a DM is a daunting task, and when the dice start rolling and the table gets crazy, even the best DM can miss something. Maybe he sees the DM chair as a position of prestige and is afraid of losing that position by admitting a need for help.
This possibility is best addressed subtly. Don't call the DM out in front of the group, as that may further embarrass him and make him reconsider the game altogether. It would be best to pull the DM aside quietly, and pretend to ask for "DM tips" from him. Ask him what his technique or strategy is for dice rolling, and for balancing encounters and damage output with the party. You'll be pretending to learn, but what you're really doing is Insight checking your DM. Look for clues to determine whether the DM actually knows the rules, and whether he has any regard for the experience that others at the table are having. If you find that the problem is one of ignorance, offer to provide the needed support. If it's something else... see #3.
2. Perhaps the DM is just lazy. Maybe they know quite well how much damage your party of level 8 characters can handle, so as long as the fights are tough but not TPK-range, then throwing a random number out for damage is just easier and faster than doing dice math. He may justify this to himself as "putting the narrative ahead of the math". Maybe he just wants to keep the game moving at an exciting pace and doesn't want the players to get bored while he adds a bunch of numbers.
In this event, I would recommend asking the other players, each privately, whether they have noticed anything unusual about the dice rolls. If they haven't, and they're happy with the story they're playing in, then maybe it's not such a big problem after all. If they have noticed aberrations, then perhaps someone could recommend that all dice rolls (for players AND the DM) be made in front of the screen. Maybe one dice tray or dice tower in the center of the table that everyone uses.
3. Perhaps the DM is not yet ready to be a DM. Being a good DM is more than just reading the books and buying a DM screen. There's a great deal of maturity and even-temperament required to do the job well. Many inexperienced DMs fall into the error of thinking that the game is "Me versus Them!" They're trying to win, and they see the players as their opponents, and thus can become vindictive and dishonest in their dice rolls. This is bad. This is not what D&D is about. A good DM is merely a guide. He (or she) recognizes the DM position as "first among equals" and humbly acquiesces their own desires for the good of the story. They recognize that the DM and the players are all on the same team, and that the objective is not "to win", but simply to tell a good story and to enjoy the time spent together doing so.
If your DM falls into this vindictive category, then perhaps it's time to ask your fellow players whether you want to continue playing with this DM or whether you all collectively want to explore other options. If you confront the DM, do so as a group. And don't be accusatory about it. Instead, have a discussion about "table rules" and "expectations of play". Explain that the players are making a commitment of time and effort to be there, and that they deserve to play a fair game. Gently remind the DM that this is just a game. It's meant to be fun. If people aren't having fun, they'll find another game.
Either way, it won't be an easy discussion to have. But it'll be worth it in the long run. It's like ripping off a band-aid. It's better to do it quickly and be done with it.
Good luck!
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
It's been said here already, but be classy. Don't bring it up in front of the whole group.
One time my DM was doing this sort of thing to me in a game -- I had like an effective armour class of 21 or something, and these orcs kept hitting me, which, to do so without a critical was like 10% on 10% on 10% on 10% et cetera. Had he let me guard against one of the attacks, it wouldn't have been nearly suspicious, because I was relying on defensive duelist. But he was just trying to punish me for being confident about my character's ability to deflect most of the attacks the orcs could throw at us-- after all, the character was built to have a high AC.
What I did was I just mentioned, over a messenger, after the game that it would have been literally more likely for us to win the jackpot in the lottery than that outcome on the dice. He didn't do it again.
But, even if he's fudging the dice (not something to recommend), he's not killing the players off, right? So, is it really a problem?
I call massive bullshit on this.
If a DM has a night of very bad rolls it is just fine if he starts to fudge dice to keep it exciting. It doesn't necessarily have to be a DM vs Player mentality at all.
Yeah, sounds familiar. We had a DM that made up all kinds of monster abilities and bonuses and tried to kill a couple characters specifically and was favorable to 2 others. We just stopped playing with him as it was just garbage. We told him about it and he just ignored us. I’d bring it up and if things don’t change then drop the guy. Randomness is one of the things that makes the game great and taking that away diminishes the fun.
More heretical thoughts from Hawksmoor
The situation the OP describes violates a core tenet of the game. The player glanced behind the screen and what they saw left them dismayed. Kind of like walking into a sausage factory, witnessing the gore and being unsettled at the prospect of now eating their favorite meal. The core crime is not what the DM was doing, it was the player looking behind the screen. This is the same as seeing the selection of minis the DM has set up before the game and knowing that because undead were prevalent they would ensure their spell preparation could deal with undead effectively, or doing a quick bit of reconnaissance in the DMs notebook when she leaves the room to converse privately with the player of the Rogue. That is the cheating going on.
Oh noes! Hawksmoor! DMs are supposed to follow the same rules as the players! It says so on page...! Wait. I know it says it somewhere. Hold on, I need to flip through the books to find that entry... Maybe it was in the last edition? or on that unofficial Sage Advice or Crawford Tweet?
DMs do not have to play by the same rules that govern player characters. For instance, in combat can a DM design a monster that possesses a special action that can be used at the end of player character's action? Yes, those are called Legendary Actions and no PC has canonical access to them. Can the DM grant new abilities to monsters, or remove/alter weaknesses of monsters to represent something new like a alchemically altered Troll that is vulnerable to Cold and Thunder damage instead of Fire and Acid. Yes. The rules exist so that the DM can fairly adjudicate Player Character actions, that is all. Player's often mistake the idea of consistency in fairly adjudicating the actions of the players as a straight jacket that governs outcomes in the game. Player's roll dice to represent both the fickle nature of chance in their intended actions, and to remove...somewhat...the childish cry of "I hit you! No you didn't I ducked!" from our imaginary games as wee children. Players roll dice because they are part of the narrative, DMs roll them for altogether different reasons.
Gygax himself said, "the only reason for a DM to roll dice is for the sound they make." Now, Gygax's style might not be for everyone, but the sentiment remains: dice are fickle masters and one should never give to them sole control over outcome. A player might have an exquisite PC, full of rich potential and thoroughly enmeshed in the game, but if dice are allowed to be tyrants over the narrative, the single troll introduced as a random encounter, that critically hits them and rolls near max damage reducing the PC to zero hps, the next hit and the rend kill that PC outright because of the rules as written for death by massive damage. And because dice must always be followed the DM has no recourse but rule the PC as ripped into bloody chunks of steaming flesh and sprays of blood. A wiser DM knows that the PC is worth more to the story and upon glancing at the dice spins a counter tale of the PC raked and rended brought low by the ferocity of the attack: they are deeply wounded perhaps dying. The Troll howls in bloodlusted fury as it stands over the fallen warrior, the DM looks at the next player, she controls the lithe Tiefling Sorceror and asks her "What will Siobahn do?"
The issue with the scenario I set up and explained was theatrics. The goal is to exercise DM editorial control over dice outcomes in a way that the Players never suspect. Or if they do, make them uncertain if/and when you do it. In one of the last games I ran, I freely admit to altering the dice roll. One of my players has the most outstanding gifts: she ALWAYS wins initiative over the opponents. Not that she runs an Initiative maxed build, she uses a dice tower in the center of the table and rolls exceedingly high in initiative. I, on the other hand, have the opposite luck. If I implemented a initiative optimized Assassin Rogue type the die would refuse to roll higher than a 4. So, I decided totally that this once, the mob got the drop on her PC. It was within the realms of possibility, and was unlikely/impossible to ruin the enjoyment of the table if one time in a hundred rolls the player did not go first. So I rolled behind my screen, made a show of my eyes popping and a quick smile before I scratched down something on my pad. I called out for initiatives and placed their cards on the tree, when it got to the player I put her card near it's usual position at the top of the tree, but the party already knew. I put on my biggest shitfaced grin and put a mob clip at the top. FIST PUMP! It didn't matter to me what that die came up as, I already "knew" it was a 16.
Was I being "adversarial" to do this? I sleep in the same bed as this player. I have for the last 26 years, if she thought I was an adversarial DM, I would have heard about it by now. A LOT!
TL;DR... DO NOT LOOK BEHIND THE SCREEN!
I've heard some DM's don't even roll damage. They just use the average damage listed in the monster stats.
I myself am guilty of continuing a battle long beyond the point where the monster HP has been depleted, or introducing more unplanned monsters. On the flip side, I've introduced critical fumbles (that affect the outcome of battle) or questionable actions for monsters, or neglected some key monster abilities, just to tone down what seemed like a perfectly reasonable encounter going into the battle.
You peeked behind the DM screen and saw the DM is deciding the outcome of the battles. So the questions now are:
That being said, if the DM is being biased or is giving preferential treatment to some players, then it's time to have a talk with the DM or walk from the table.
I'll pop in here too. From what you described, it doesn't sound like the DM was singling anyone in particular out, and it didn't seem to be any kind of overt attempt to kill PCs just because. So I'd offer a couple of possibilities.
First - as already mentioned, maybe the DM was just having a really crap night rolling dice and he didn't want you guys to feel "ripped off" like it was too easy for you to win, so he was compensating by adjusting the rolls to something more reasonably challenging. (Even the trap could be the same thing. "Jesus, I rolled a pile of friggin ones again - I'll just call it 30 damage, that's about average on this trap.")
The second option is that maybe the encounters he had planned out were proving to be vastly under-leveled for your party. Once combat starts it's really difficult to suddenly change a monster's AC or to-hit bonus to compensate, but it's relatively easy to fudge a few rolls. (And he may not have wanted to say "hang on, let me flip through my Monster MAnual for a second - I need a few more baddies to throw at you all.") Maybe he needed to make the trap nastier than planned to use up a few more of your resources, trying to make a later encounter more challenging. Could be a whole pile of reasons.
So, as long as it didn't seem like the DM was being a jerk to anyone in particular or to the party as a whole, I wouldn't worry about it. :)
I am not breaking the rules or bullshitting my players. For instance Kerrec mentioned DMs that forgo rolling damage for monsters and apply the average. I have done this, a lot, when I am trying to keep the flow going. I even state when I plan to roll or take the average, and allow the PCs the same option.
The only game I ran in recent memory out in the open and never fudged a roll was ToA. Not a single first or second generation PC finished that adventure. I played the brutality to the fullest, and they never made it to the Soul Monger much less Acerarak. My group hated that level of meat grindiness and likely wished I was more on their side in that one instead of very impartially devouring souls.
It's quite hypocritical to tell me that fudging dice rolls is not the way to have fun, then tell me that rolling dice IS THE WAY to have fun.
If you'd said not everyone finds that fun, I would even have agreed with you. Maybe I would elaborated that at my table, a tough fight is fun. A pushover fight because of probability is an anti-climax, especially when the whole session was building up to that last event. So fudging is worth it for us.
But here you are... telling me the only way to have fun is to roll dice and see what happens.
Should I let my party TPK because I erred buiding an encounter? "Sorry guys, there will be no conclusion to the last 2 years of story because I made a mistake building this encounter and it's a TPK. Lets start a new campaign!?"
I can read my guys pretty well. When they stand up and start pacing, offering advice as their character lies there unconscious and everyone knows the BBEG is hanging on by a thread... when the players feel dread rolling an obvious miss, or stand up and breathe a sigh of relief when the BBEG finally goes down... even though the BBEG should have been dead after the first couple rounds...
I'd say I did a pretty good job of deciding what is exciting when I look at the players and their reactions.
On the flip side, I've ended encounters/puzzles I thought were going to be fun but the players didn't engage in by fudging the dice. Should I have stuck to a boring encounter until it naturally ran it's course, even though I can plainly see I lost the player's engagement?
Poured through the Sage's playlist and came up with this gem:
https://youtu.be/gKBAfzQQZNE
Matt is a river to his people.
The part I felt was most germane was the statement that even the Mighty Matt Colville fudges die rolls to alters HP totals, the trick is not to do it a lot. The game is not supposed to be balanced and sometimes it is hard and unfun. Try to make next week better.
I actually agree with Hawksmoor on this one - and also immediately thought of a different Matt Colville video about the purpose of the dice, and the DM fuding dice: Fudging Die Rolls, Running the Game #67.
I believe the DM is not bound to the same rules as the Players, and Monsters are not bound to the same rules as the Players either - because the DM is juggling all sorts of other factors - pacing, tone, narrative twists, keeping player tension high, and - quite possibly - DM mistakes ( damn, I made this Homebrew monster waaay to powerful! I need it to miss more, to not TPK here! ).
I recognize that different people have different approaches, but that's my take on it.
To me, the important factor here is why is the DM is fudging die rolls. If the DM is adversarial to the Party, and is "cheating" against the Players, that's a problem. If the DM is fudging in order to correct narrative, or game flow, problems, that's legitimate, IMHO.
What is important is that the Players - especially some styles of Players which prize verisimilitude ( that's a whole other debate ) - don't have the fudging pushed in their face, and thus feel their being prosecuted, or coddled.
Which means that the DM sometimes rolls in secret ( ideally always in secret, so the times you need to "tweak" the results it isn't obvious ), and the Players shouldn't be peeking behind the screen!
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
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Don’t fudge, either side, it’s wrong, it’s cheating. Period.
Some of my funnest times were when I was rolling just complete crap, as a player and GM. Just let the RNG and the game’s rules play as written. A TPK is possible in any encounter and so is just steamrolling an encounter, but 99% of the time it’s somewhere in between. Cheating on either side robs the group of fun and excitement.
Also brings me to a peeve on some “homebrew” type rules. If you haven’t played or DM’d a group or character to max level, at least once, leave the game be. There are peaks and valleys in character power that are often ruined by homebrew rules. Play the game as written, they got it right (for the most part).
Thank you for all your replies
As for looking behind the screen i wasn't trying to be all shady and secretive about it from where i sit i can literally see part of his dice tray without even trying to and i know some DM's fudge rolls but to fudge it to a critical is a bit shady. i only brought this question up because i have noticed a pattern and i think that the other players have as well due to dubious glances toward each other. When we have mentioned things that are odd in the past he tends to get defensive and throws something at us that has a real potential to TPK. We were doing mines of phandelver and we actually killed the green dragon at level 3, he got frustrated and randomly threw an adult dragon at us only to retcon it the next week, then quit for a week or two.
I decided to try my hand at DMing so he could play, I had horrible anxiety but thought i could do it, or at least try. Unfortunately he consistently rolled horrible and ran into rooms and touched items before i explained what he saw. He ran into the middle of a trapped room once, he got a dex save that he failed and was poisoned by a dart then throws a fit saying he would have been looking around, and running up and grabbing animated armor and gets mad when it attacked him first. He then proceeds to email me about all of this again and is being very condescending and rude. I ended up quitting D&D for almost a year after that but missed it so came back.
He says he has been DMing since the 80s. He doesn't go after anyone in particular unless they have a skill or something that is irritating him or preventing him from hitting. For example, my first game i played with him i was a fighter martial archetype and i took protection (vastly underrated) I would use it every chance i got to protect our squishier players and it went with my backstory. Eventually, he would give me penalties such as the monster/bad guy broke my shield arm and it isn't usable. Every now and then it was fine added some flavor and made sense but it became a habit just about every encounter my shield arm would become useless. This was my first time playing D&D so i didn't say anything but i think another player did because he backed off from it for about two weeks.
Combat used to be fun until he started adding all these special effects to the environment. During that last encounter where he fudged the rolls the room was shaking as well as spewing water from 2 walls and the water was freezing instantly as it hit the bottom causing everyone to make dex checks and con saves just to be able to take their turn all while being attacked by these wisp things and whenever our cleric tried to heal something blocked her from doing it or if her magic was offensive it would backfire onto her.
I would have left awhile ago if i had another group but unfortunately I don't. I met this group online through a get together site and i have yet to find another in the area. I am trying to make it work with what i have. I'd rather play rarely fun D&D then no D&D at all, plus the other players are awesome.
Maybe you and the other players could find a new DM or one of you take the mantle?
This person sounds like quite the headache, but not because of the dice fudging. Might be time for a replacement, as DxJxC suggested.
I didn't even get past your first big paragraph before deciding that person is not a good player or DM. They seem to be very "me me me" and those types can be very toxic to a group.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
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The situation you presented in this post is different than the first. The dice rolls are the least of the concerns you have presented. If what you have stated is complete and objective, the problem is the dungeon master's ability to balance his roles at the table. The first and most important role is to fairly adjudicate player actions and interactions with the environment. Fairly does *not* mean that they have to be slaves to the dice, but they must ensure that the outcome is consistent and true. As Matt Colville said "What is to be done? The Derro are the Derro. This is the situation." If the DM is actively shutting down player abilities, like the Fighting Style- Protection's ability to impose disadvantage on attack rolls to target's other than the fighter in melee range, because he doesn't like it. Holistically, just from the information now presented, I think the DM is insecure about his ability to run the game, and has not spent enough time with the new edition to really knock the tires off and see what it can do. As such, resorts to crippling your PC's (injuring the shield arm) class ability or wildly fudging rolls. Fudging is a discrete tool, and one that should be used infrequently and only in the interest of the Player's story- *NEVER* against them.
Conversation is supposed to be a great cure-all of social ills. Many of us humans, are however ill at ease in such situations, either uncertain of what to say, or automatically assuming ill-intent and throwing up walls of defense. Nevertheless, I do suggest a conversation be had. The whole group needs to get together and hash this out. I wish you luck, it will not likely be a pleasant conversation on any side. But what is to be done.
This is part of why, as a DM, I don't hide my rolls. I openly roll in view of at least one person. Never hide them or fudge them. The randomness of rolling dice is there to make the encounter as dynamic as possible. Else why even roll?
Every roll changes the story. The DM simply has to come up with what happens on bad rolls. Hell even on good rolls.