ToA: extremely good (fully fleshed out with plenty of extra props)
HotDQ: npt good. I had to work a lot to make it enjoyable
RoT: not as good as HotDQ
SKT: I decided not to run this after skimming it
Curse of Strahd and Dragonheist: I've heard good things!
Princes of the Apocalypse: I haven't heard good things.
BG:DiA: it's not perfect, but I love the concepts so much that this is great regardless! I wish the Baldur's Gate portion had been released as a separate adventure (since it seems unrelated). I still ran the Baldur's Gate portion since I had the Beadle and Grimm Platinum prop set for it (totally worth it for me, since I'm running three groups of adults through this). For other DM's though: don't feel compelled to use both. the hardback is completely worth it (especially if it's on sale) if just want an Avernus adventure or a Baldur's Gate reference.
Curse of strahd and dragon heist played really well. Many of the others require a lot of work before you can play. So much so that I think they are over priced. $50 for something that requires a lot of preparation to be coherent? Not awesome
I think most of you need to try to write an adventure book, then accept the criticism that will be thrown your way. Because no matter what you do, there will be some. Too many different expectations and play styles for an adventure book to cater to everyone.
I'm running Out of the Abyss for 2 groups, a PBP group in the DnDBeyond Forums and a live group. I've read the book from cover to cover twice before ever running it, because there is so much going on in it. And to be honest, I'm forgetting to do approximately a 1/4 of the things...
Yet, it gives everything I need to get from the beginning of the story to the end, with lots of 'gaps' to personalize the story further for those that like that. But it is definitely open ended with plenty of options to give the players. I'm certain if I ran this module more, the story would be significantly different each time. There are chapters that my players will never experience, because I didn't force them to go there... and they don't need to.
And I think that's the point of many of these 'unfinished' open ended modules. Railroad stories are fine if the players want that. But when they don't... If you want to give enough options to make it look like there's a sandbox to play in, then you can't go and write full fleshed out arcs, locations, NPC's and so on without producing a 1000+ page monstrosity that only the niche hardcore groups would ever consider picking up.
As has been said, these books are spring boards to dive into D&D. With the OotA module, I only need to spend 2-3 hours per session in prep. If I would try to create a story from scratch, I would be spending A LOT MORE time than that. Also worth mentioning, not every DM would have the courage to make something from scratch, but with something to reference and guide them, they would be willing to jump in. And that's the point, isn't it?
Curse of strahd and dragon heist played really well. Many of the others require a lot of work before you can play. So much so that I think they are over priced. $50 for something that requires a lot of preparation to be coherent? Not awesome
$50? Where are you buying adventure books? I've never spent that much on one.
I think most of you need to try to write an adventure book, then accept the criticism that will be thrown your way. Because no matter what you do, there will be some.
That could be said about most things, but it doesn't seem like hardcover generalizations (your's or the Original Poster's) are apropos. Despite subjectivity, some are just better than others.
We encountered this in 4e's LFR adventures (now AL in 5e): some writer's were better than others (which is fine, since they weren't really getting paid), but the end results were usually pretty good thanks to crowd-sourced feedback and testing.
Curse of strahd and dragon heist played really well. Many of the others require a lot of work before you can play. So much so that I think they are over priced. $50 for something that requires a lot of preparation to be coherent? Not awesome
$50? Where are you buying adventure books? I've never spent that much on one.
The base price is $49.95, but on Amazon and most other stores cost less, close to 25-35 dollars.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Okay, I've run a few of the hardcovers now and I'm notimpressed in terms of the quality of the stories. They present themselves as ready to play resources, but as ready to play resources they tend to be very mediocre.
Don't get me wrong. I think there is a lot of good bones in there, but I have to spend a lot of time rewriting the content to make it actually good? Or at least I find it so. I'm currently running Dragonheist and it's taken a few sessions to actually make the setting and adventure compelling. There are just so many gaps in the adventure in terms of making this world come alive-- I feel like there could have been more attention to the gaps and the idea that it's really a foundation, with a few set pieces.
Without getting too into it, but it took me a little bit to realise that the gang war is the most interesting part of the first half of the adventure. Which is lightly touched on, and absolutely not dealt with in the severity that it should be. I mean, there are people killing each other in the streets, but we never meet any NPCs who are being affected by this. Like, this should raise some really big questions about the efficacy of the guards in Waterdeep to protect the underclasses. Instead of pursuing the faction sidequests (Like the first one for the Force Grey is... really weird if you aren't playing Winter), I realised that "chapter 2" should be spent actually making the players care that the city is embroiled in a civil war for control of the underbelly and this is happening because there are one million gp floating around. Hell, it's a great time to introduce some interesting character moments. I'm stealing the plot from some of the sidequests from Yakuza 0.
Likewise, LMoP had some really curious plot holes. The less said about Out of the Abyss, probably, the better. I've read/glanced a number of other hardcovers and I'm starting to see them better as loose guides with general premises than actually prepared adventures that you can run by just following the text as written (I don't mean just literally reading the text aloud. I mean following the structure of the adventures and details of the world as presented.) I'm used to putting interesting spins on NPCs to make them my own, but I find myself designing a lot more content to fill out the adventures than I would expect to.
What are your opinions? Are you having a similar time with Hardcovers to what I'm dealing with?
Okay, I've run a few of the hardcovers now and I'm notimpressed in terms of the quality of the stories. They present themselves as ready to play resources, but as ready to play resources they tend to be very mediocre.
Don't get me wrong. I think there is a lot of good bones in there, but I have to spend a lot of time rewriting the content to make it actually good? Or at least I find it so. I'm currently running Dragonheist and it's taken a few sessions to actually make the setting and adventure compelling. There are just so many gaps in the adventure in terms of making this world come alive-- I feel like there could have been more attention to the gaps and the idea that it's really a foundation, with a few set pieces.
Without getting too into it, but it took me a little bit to realise that the gang war is the most interesting part of the first half of the adventure. Which is lightly touched on, and absolutely not dealt with in the severity that it should be. I mean, there are people killing each other in the streets, but we never meet any NPCs who are being affected by this. Like, this should raise some really big questions about the efficacy of the guards in Waterdeep to protect the underclasses. Instead of pursuing the faction sidequests (Like the first one for the Force Grey is... really weird if you aren't playing Winter), I realised that "chapter 2" should be spent actually making the players care that the city is embroiled in a civil war for control of the underbelly and this is happening because there are one million gp floating around. Hell, it's a great time to introduce some interesting character moments. I'm stealing the plot from some of the sidequests from Yakuza 0.
Likewise, LMoP had some really curious plot holes. The less said about Out of the Abyss, probably, the better. I've read/glanced a number of other hardcovers and I'm starting to see them better as loose guides with general premises than actually prepared adventures that you can run by just following the text as written (I don't mean just literally reading the text aloud. I mean following the structure of the adventures and details of the world as presented.) I'm used to putting interesting spins on NPCs to make them my own, but I find myself designing a lot more content to fill out the adventures than I would expect to.
What are your opinions? Are you having a similar time with Hardcovers to what I'm dealing with?
Okay, I've run a few of the hardcovers now and I'm notimpressed in terms of the quality of the stories. They present themselves as ready to play resources, but as ready to play resources they tend to be very mediocre.
Don't get me wrong. I think there is a lot of good bones in there, but I have to spend a lot of time rewriting the content to make it actually good? Or at least I find it so. I'm currently running Dragonheist and it's taken a few sessions to actually make the setting and adventure compelling. There are just so many gaps in the adventure in terms of making this world come alive-- I feel like there could have been more attention to the gaps and the idea that it's really a foundation, with a few set pieces.
Without getting too into it, but it took me a little bit to realise that the gang war is the most interesting part of the first half of the adventure. Which is lightly touched on, and absolutely not dealt with in the severity that it should be. I mean, there are people killing each other in the streets, but we never meet any NPCs who are being affected by this. Like, this should raise some really big questions about the efficacy of the guards in Waterdeep to protect the underclasses. Instead of pursuing the faction sidequests (Like the first one for the Force Grey is... really weird if you aren't playing Winter), I realised that "chapter 2" should be spent actually making the players care that the city is embroiled in a civil war for control of the underbelly and this is happening because there are one million gp floating around. Hell, it's a great time to introduce some interesting character moments. I'm stealing the plot from some of the sidequests from Yakuza 0.
Likewise, LMoP had some really curious plot holes. The less said about Out of the Abyss, probably, the better. I've read/glanced a number of other hardcovers and I'm starting to see them better as loose guides with general premises than actually prepared adventures that you can run by just following the text as written (I don't mean just literally reading the text aloud. I mean following the structure of the adventures and details of the world as presented.) I'm used to putting interesting spins on NPCs to make them my own, but I find myself designing a lot more content to fill out the adventures than I would expect to.
What are your opinions? Are you having a similar time with Hardcovers to what I'm dealing with?
Thats for you to figure out and decide. And, if you haven't done your homework for session, you're going to fail as a DM. So, I can see how someone unfamiliar and new to D&D can get frustrated by this, but as someone that has home-brewed before...I honestly like having the groundwork laid out for me as it is much easier for me with limited time to embellish upon a pre-written story as opposed to having to build an entire interwoven world that is my own.
I think every one of the published adventures, except maybe CoS, has the problem of having the PCs first interaction with the antagonist happen way too late in the story.
I have very few complaints about the adventures themselves.I alter the adventures to my campaigns anyways/
My complaints about Hard Cover adventures, and the reason I only buy them in digital formats, is the format the adventures are laid out with in the hardcovers, and issues with the physical hardcovers themselves.
1) Monsters and npc's should be inserted appropriately where they are encounter in adventure. NOT at the end of the book. This leads to way too much flipping back and forth through the book and the use of many physical bookmarks to keep track of everything you need at any one time.
2) The binding on hardcovers go far too quickly due the the amount of flipping through you have to do and the fact you need to use weights to hold the book open when you want the silly thing to stay open. Personally, I think they should go back to softcover adventure modules and the format of putting what's needed where it is encounter in the adventure.
3) I absolutely DnDBeyond simply because I can open different parts of the module to different tabs. It's digital, so if I want to print out parts it is easy and straightforward. Especially printing poster-size maps for minis. In fact, this is a feature I'd like to see DnDBeyond add to their site: the ability to create poster-sized maps. It would save having to use 3rd party sites and utilities.
I only own one hardcover adventure, Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus. It was given to me as a present otherwise I would never have bought it in a hardcover format. I have purchased pretty well all the adventures here on DnDBeyond though.
The same issues with the physical, hardcover surce books are why I buy them on DnDBeyond. They just don't last. Too many people I know HAVE bought both hardcover source and adventure books only to have them fall apart at the binding from heavy use.
As I said, the actual adventures themselves I have very slight issues with, the the layout and quality of the books turn me completely away for them.
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
If you aren't going to prepare for a session, then don't DM. Period. I'm currently running the Princes of the Apocalypse campaign with hardcover and we have all loved it. That is not to say I haven't had issues with the book. My biggest peeve is that several plot hooks go nowhere until late in the campaign, and that is only IF the party comes across them. Once this was realized, I quickly made up my own reasoning and homebrewed it as part of the larger mission . Another fun thing that occurred (which wasn't in the book) was the party going to the Underdark. This turned out to be incredibly fun, as I made up an Underdark city and tied the random encounters the book laid out into this little foray, as well as tying it directly into the backstory for the main villain.
Overall, to DM is to never be fully prepared but the hardcovers do a lot of work for you. If you just want to show up and run an adventure without preparing on your own time I would suggest playing a board game.
I HAVE been DM's since 1981 and do plenty of preparation. I just absolutely HATE anything that wastes any of the time I use to prepare for any of my 2-3 ongoing campaigns. And that doesn't count special events I run for special occasions.
Ever since I discovered DnDBeyond, my life has been so very much simliar. No time wasted hunting the internet for digital versions to get printouts of decent quality. Or pictures and maps. Also, no carrying around a ton of books. I just need my laptop and my iPad (for offline access).
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Too many people I know HAVE bought both hardcover source and adventure books only to have them fall apart at the binding from heavy use.
Interesting. My Monster Manual is starting to fall apart, but I haven't had any issue with the adventures. My ToA book received the most use (very long adventure, and I ran if for three different groups), but it's still in great condition.
Note: the Beadle and Grimm Edition of BG:DiA eliminates any possible binding issues by dividing the chapters into individual booklets.
My Dungeon of the Mad Mage hardcover book is falling apart, I had to tape it. Same with my player's handbook.
The adventurers aren't all bad. All of them have some major plot holes that need fixing when you DM, but if you're a good enough DM all the adventures can be good.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
As I said earlier, I have very little issues with the content of adventures. Just with the physical media itselof and the layout of the material.
Ah. Ok, I *think* I might know the difference: I typically also purchase the adventure's DM bundle from DMsGuild.com. Those contain the monster stats (all on one page for an encounter), which I print-out (then fold and put into a ziplock bag with the miniatures for the encounter).
Using these printouts has likely eliminated a lot of wear-n-tear and layout issues.
If you aren't going to prepare for a session, then don't DM. Period. I'm currently running the Princes of the Apocalypse campaign with hardcover and we have all loved it. That is not to say I haven't had issues with the book. My biggest peeve is that several plot hooks go nowhere until late in the campaign, and that is only IF the party comes across them. Once this was realized, I quickly made up my own reasoning and homebrewed it as part of the larger mission . Another fun thing that occurred (which wasn't in the book) was the party going to the Underdark. This turned out to be incredibly fun, as I made up an Underdark city and tied the random encounters the book laid out into this little foray, as well as tying it directly into the backstory for the main villain.
Overall, to DM is to never be fully prepared but the hardcovers do a lot of work for you. If you just want to show up and run an adventure without preparing on your own time I would suggest playing a board game.
Nice opinion, but who said they want to show up an run an adventure without preparing on their own time?
If you aren't going to prepare for a session, then don't DM. Period. I'm currently running the Princes of the Apocalypse campaign with hardcover and we have all loved it. That is not to say I haven't had issues with the book. My biggest peeve is that several plot hooks go nowhere until late in the campaign, and that is only IF the party comes across them. Once this was realized, I quickly made up my own reasoning and homebrewed it as part of the larger mission . Another fun thing that occurred (which wasn't in the book) was the party going to the Underdark. This turned out to be incredibly fun, as I made up an Underdark city and tied the random encounters the book laid out into this little foray, as well as tying it directly into the backstory for the main villain.
Overall, to DM is to never be fully prepared but the hardcovers do a lot of work for you. If you just want to show up and run an adventure without preparing on your own time I would suggest playing a board game.
Nice opinion, but who said they want to show up an run an adventure without preparing on their own time?
I inferred it from your OP about a hardcover book not touching much on an aspect of the adventure you found most interesting. Some prep work could easily flesh out the areas you appreciate/think your PCs will enjoy/pursue; prep work could also be done by simply re-skinning what is presented in the book to fit your vision. I find myself always prepping to tie my PC's backstories and motives into the current book, and that is in addition to normal prepwork. In summation, all the hardcover books (campaigns, as well as PHB, MM, etc.) are simply guidelines for you to use. They are not considered absolute, nor complete, and WotC is pretty transparent that they want all of us to make the game our own.
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No, but....
They take a bit of work to be adapted to every party. Certain adventures are better than others.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
For me:
Curse of strahd and dragon heist played really well. Many of the others require a lot of work before you can play. So much so that I think they are over priced. $50 for something that requires a lot of preparation to be coherent? Not awesome
LOL.
I think most of you need to try to write an adventure book, then accept the criticism that will be thrown your way. Because no matter what you do, there will be some. Too many different expectations and play styles for an adventure book to cater to everyone.
I'm running Out of the Abyss for 2 groups, a PBP group in the DnDBeyond Forums and a live group. I've read the book from cover to cover twice before ever running it, because there is so much going on in it. And to be honest, I'm forgetting to do approximately a 1/4 of the things...
Yet, it gives everything I need to get from the beginning of the story to the end, with lots of 'gaps' to personalize the story further for those that like that. But it is definitely open ended with plenty of options to give the players. I'm certain if I ran this module more, the story would be significantly different each time. There are chapters that my players will never experience, because I didn't force them to go there... and they don't need to.
And I think that's the point of many of these 'unfinished' open ended modules. Railroad stories are fine if the players want that. But when they don't... If you want to give enough options to make it look like there's a sandbox to play in, then you can't go and write full fleshed out arcs, locations, NPC's and so on without producing a 1000+ page monstrosity that only the niche hardcore groups would ever consider picking up.
As has been said, these books are spring boards to dive into D&D. With the OotA module, I only need to spend 2-3 hours per session in prep. If I would try to create a story from scratch, I would be spending A LOT MORE time than that. Also worth mentioning, not every DM would have the courage to make something from scratch, but with something to reference and guide them, they would be willing to jump in. And that's the point, isn't it?
$50? Where are you buying adventure books? I've never spent that much on one.
That could be said about most things, but it doesn't seem like hardcover generalizations (your's or the Original Poster's) are apropos. Despite subjectivity, some are just better than others.
We encountered this in 4e's LFR adventures (now AL in 5e): some writer's were better than others (which is fine, since they weren't really getting paid), but the end results were usually pretty good thanks to crowd-sourced feedback and testing.
The base price is $49.95, but on Amazon and most other stores cost less, close to 25-35 dollars.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Thats for you to figure out and decide. And, if you haven't done your homework for session, you're going to fail as a DM. So, I can see how someone unfamiliar and new to D&D can get frustrated by this, but as someone that has home-brewed before...I honestly like having the groundwork laid out for me as it is much easier for me with limited time to embellish upon a pre-written story as opposed to having to build an entire interwoven world that is my own.
I think every one of the published adventures, except maybe CoS, has the problem of having the PCs first interaction with the antagonist happen way too late in the story.
the real answer? it depend on the group.
the prince of the apocalypse id dungeon crawling.
storm king's thunder is a sandbox in the sword coast area the focus on giants
tomb of annihilation is a sandbox in chult - focus on survival in jungle and lots of unded
and so on - pick was is right of you party. maybe none is right for your party.
I vote no, but . . .
I have very few complaints about the adventures themselves.I alter the adventures to my campaigns anyways/
My complaints about Hard Cover adventures, and the reason I only buy them in digital formats, is the format the adventures are laid out with in the hardcovers, and issues with the physical hardcovers themselves.
1) Monsters and npc's should be inserted appropriately where they are encounter in adventure. NOT at the end of the book. This leads to way too much flipping back and forth through the book and the use of many physical bookmarks to keep track of everything you need at any one time.
2) The binding on hardcovers go far too quickly due the the amount of flipping through you have to do and the fact you need to use weights to hold the book open when you want the silly thing to stay open. Personally, I think they should go back to softcover adventure modules and the format of putting what's needed where it is encounter in the adventure.
3) I absolutely DnDBeyond simply because I can open different parts of the module to different tabs. It's digital, so if I want to print out parts it is easy and straightforward. Especially printing poster-size maps for minis. In fact, this is a feature I'd like to see DnDBeyond add to their site: the ability to create poster-sized maps. It would save having to use 3rd party sites and utilities.
I only own one hardcover adventure, Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus. It was given to me as a present otherwise I would never have bought it in a hardcover format. I have purchased pretty well all the adventures here on DnDBeyond though.
The same issues with the physical, hardcover surce books are why I buy them on DnDBeyond. They just don't last. Too many people I know HAVE bought both hardcover source and adventure books only to have them fall apart at the binding from heavy use.
As I said, the actual adventures themselves I have very slight issues with, the the layout and quality of the books turn me completely away for them.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
No but...
If you aren't going to prepare for a session, then don't DM. Period. I'm currently running the Princes of the Apocalypse campaign with hardcover and we have all loved it. That is not to say I haven't had issues with the book. My biggest peeve is that several plot hooks go nowhere until late in the campaign, and that is only IF the party comes across them. Once this was realized, I quickly made up my own reasoning and homebrewed it as part of the larger mission . Another fun thing that occurred (which wasn't in the book) was the party going to the Underdark. This turned out to be incredibly fun, as I made up an Underdark city and tied the random encounters the book laid out into this little foray, as well as tying it directly into the backstory for the main villain.
Overall, to DM is to never be fully prepared but the hardcovers do a lot of work for you. If you just want to show up and run an adventure without preparing on your own time I would suggest playing a board game.
I HAVE been DM's since 1981 and do plenty of preparation. I just absolutely HATE anything that wastes any of the time I use to prepare for any of my 2-3 ongoing campaigns. And that doesn't count special events I run for special occasions.
Ever since I discovered DnDBeyond, my life has been so very much simliar. No time wasted hunting the internet for digital versions to get printouts of decent quality. Or pictures and maps. Also, no carrying around a ton of books. I just need my laptop and my iPad (for offline access).
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Interesting. My Monster Manual is starting to fall apart, but I haven't had any issue with the adventures. My ToA book received the most use (very long adventure, and I ran if for three different groups), but it's still in great condition.
Note: the Beadle and Grimm Edition of BG:DiA eliminates any possible binding issues by dividing the chapters into individual booklets.
Adventures don't see as much use unless you run them for multiple groups (like I, and fellow dm's do in my gaming circle)
For the prices they charge, they need to go back to the binding used on the books in 2nd edition. :)
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
My Dungeon of the Mad Mage hardcover book is falling apart, I had to tape it. Same with my player's handbook.
The adventurers aren't all bad. All of them have some major plot holes that need fixing when you DM, but if you're a good enough DM all the adventures can be good.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
As I said earlier, I have very little issues with the content of adventures. Just with the physical media itselof and the layout of the material.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Ah. Ok, I *think* I might know the difference: I typically also purchase the adventure's DM bundle from DMsGuild.com. Those contain the monster stats (all on one page for an encounter), which I print-out (then fold and put into a ziplock bag with the miniatures for the encounter).
Using these printouts has likely eliminated a lot of wear-n-tear and layout issues.
Nice opinion, but who said they want to show up an run an adventure without preparing on their own time?
I inferred it from your OP about a hardcover book not touching much on an aspect of the adventure you found most interesting. Some prep work could easily flesh out the areas you appreciate/think your PCs will enjoy/pursue; prep work could also be done by simply re-skinning what is presented in the book to fit your vision. I find myself always prepping to tie my PC's backstories and motives into the current book, and that is in addition to normal prepwork. In summation, all the hardcover books (campaigns, as well as PHB, MM, etc.) are simply guidelines for you to use. They are not considered absolute, nor complete, and WotC is pretty transparent that they want all of us to make the game our own.