I was thinking about Character Generation, PC's, NPC's, and Monsters and I'm a little skeptical about how much use the current 27* point buy and/or standard array actually sees.  Does anyone know if the "standard array" actually sees much use by the the people selling it, and is there proof anywhere?  Like, is there a series of consecutive play sessions featuring a dev caught on video?  Absolute apologies for the suspicious skeptic in me, but I know that I like both Feats as well as having reasonable ability scores, and have next to zero faith that you can get the two together with the 27* point buy as presented.

I am totally fine with being proved a skeptical pessimist with a chip on their shoulder   :)

* – Just noting that I originally listed the number as the "25 point buy" rather than 27.  Prior experience from 3.0 and 3.5 speaking up, :embarrassed

I suspect point buy sees more use than almost anything else, both among the devs and in the wild.  Since you don't need to spend any ASIs to get reasonable ability scores, (as opposed to high or low scores) I don't see why you wouldn't be able to get your feats alongside reasonable ability scores.

Quote from Lunali >>

I suspect point buy sees more use than almost anything else, both among the devs and in the wild.  Since you don't need to spend any ASIs to get reasonable ability scores, (as opposed to high or low scores) I don't see why you wouldn't be able to get your feats alongside reasonable ability scores.

Suspicion is nice, but do we even have a podcast with audio "showing" such?  Most of the group's I've seen most certainly have nothing to do with point buy.  I personally prefer point buy, but find the default 25 and the cap of a 15 to be ... anti-heroic.

For all the arguments in favor of point buy, the strongest would remain seeing it's Designers actually using it.

The best indicator is probably adventure league. It's a system where everyone is limited to point buy or standard array. I'd imagine the devs probably have at least seen some of that play out.

Quote from SergeTroy >>

Quote from Lunali >>

I suspect point buy sees more use than almost anything else, both among the devs and in the wild.  Since you don't need to spend any ASIs to get reasonable ability scores, (as opposed to high or low scores) I don't see why you wouldn't be able to get your feats alongside reasonable ability scores.

 

Suspicion is nice, but do we even have a podcast with audio "showing" such?  Most of the group's I've seen most certainly have nothing to do with point buy.  I personally prefer point buy, but find the default 25 and the cap of a 15 to be ... anti-heroic.

For all the arguments in favor of point buy, the strongest would remain seeing it's Designers actually using it.

 That's not really how this works, I mean firstly Wizard's of the Coast and D&D doesn't have 'devs', it has designers, such as Mike Mearls and Jeremy Crawford. Secondly, well, they don't really make their games public so you're not going see them using any particular system. Thirdly, well, seeing someone use a system doesn't prove it's mechanically balanced, just that people use it.

Your best bet would be to ask people you know if they use it. I don't, but I have players who do. I know for a fact it's the most popular option in adventurer's league as every time I've played, I've been the only person at tables of 6 or 7 that hasn't used it (I prefer standard array).

Point Buy is 27 points.

I have no idea what methods the Devs / Designers / Staff use in their own games, so this correction is all I can offer.

The cap of 15 is because Point Buy and Standard Array was mechanically balanced on the basis you are not taking feats - since Feats are an "optional" DM variant choice and not standard in this edition. So your starting scores will be lower for you to use your ASIs for increasing them.

The rolling method is best if you plan to make use of feats since you have a better chance of starting with higher scores and so require fewer ASIs. But it is a gamble.

There's nothing stopping you from creating an alternative method. Some do 18, 8 then roll for the remaining 4. Some do point buy / standard array but at ASIs you get both ASI and feat instead of choosing, others may roll as 4d6, drop lowest, re-roll 1's once, making 7 scores taking higher 6 (what my group does). It's whatever is going to work for your game as long as the DM can adjust the enounter difficulties to balance it, which is a mindset a DM should have no matter how your stats are generated. Stats aren't the most super important - your attack bonuses and skill bonuses and save DCs and so on all increase as you level no matter your choices. A DM could easily still make a balanced game even if you just all started with 20 in every stat and only used feats instead of ASIs - wouldn't be difficult to achieve either.

Play how you want. Adjusting the game for player base stats is easy, so go with whatever feels best for your group.

I prefer points-buy, especially since DDB makes it so easy. I recently rolled a character for our 'b-team' game and it sucked. Never again.

It's worth noting that accepting point-buy in 5e requires you to re-assess your expectations.

In 3.5, if you didn't start with at least an 18 in your best stat, you were underpowered.  In 5e, you can start with a 15 in your main stat and be okay.

This is partly because of Bounded Accuracy.  Even a Challenge 30 demigod/fiend only has AC 25.

Additionally, most characters cap out at 20 in Ability Scores.  When you roll for stats, somebody at the table is likely to end up starting with a 20 due to racial adjustment, giving you a character at the peak of mortal achievement who doesn't have to make the same choice between stats and feats that everyone else has.

Imposing point buy encourages your level one characters to improve, keeps the math a little simpler, gives players a level field, and allows for meaningful growth in the absence of optional feats.

Edit: The majority of my games are actually run using point buy, and my current one involves a semi-random stat pool that approximates the power level and range of point buy.

Point buy tends to be deeply unsatisfying, as the game assumes characters will have scores higher than either point buy or standard array allow for.  A character with perfect racial scores for their class/build can hit the bottom edge of what the game wants, but that's about it.  The unpleasant pressure on one's numbers from being so weak they can't make even the most basic checks without and undue degree of luck means the Feat system in the game often goes unused.  Especially since the character-defining feats everybody likes are best taken very early in progression, so they can actually define a character.

I don't care for simply starting with a natively Heroic stat spread though, either.  My current game (on the DM side) has rolled arrays that ended up, through mostly luck and a little chicanery, averaging around 80.  It's obnoxious, and players have told me they honestly don't know what to do with ASIs anymore.

What I'd like to do, honestly, is say that every four levels a character gets a feat regardless of whatever else they're doing in their level progression and otherwise say ASIs have to be ASIs (unless they're the bonus ASIs from rogue or fighter), but even that feels a little weird and doesn't play well with multiclass progression.  Nevertheless, losing what amounts to the only way to actually customize and build your character after third level to "Man, I just don't have the breathing space to do anything but make my numbers bigger!" is enormously dismaying and why my play group has never complated more than a few games with point buy or standard array.

First. point buy has literally nothing to do with NPC / Monster generation. There is an entire section on the DMG about creating monsters, and point buy is no where near it.

Second. Mearls and Crawford have noted many times in many interviews that their own home games have little to do with balance or testing, but instead will constantly bend the rules towards fun.

Third. Why does it matter what the Game Designers do? The only thing that matters for your game is your table. What does your DM and fellow players want? Do they want to roll? Point buy? Pick stats out of a hat? Whatever your table agrees on will be fine.

Fourth. 5e was tested EXTENSIVELY and PUBLICLY under the codename dndnext. Point buy was included along standard array and rolling. (which btw, standard array is actually just a list of predetermined scores that are possible with point buy). Yes its possible to roll better stats with rolling (its even more likely on average, to have higher average stats), but you gain in pure numbers you lose in control. 

Quote from Lunali >>

I suspect point buy sees more use than almost anything else, both among the devs and in the wild.  Since you don't need to spend any ASIs to get reasonable ability scores, (as opposed to high or low scores) I don't see why you wouldn't be able to get your feats alongside reasonable ability scores.

 I have literally never seen point buy used.  Then again I don't play Adventure League or know anyone else that does either.

This is just my experience though and I think using ones own circle to try to determine what happens in the world as a whole is not very wise. I am sure that there is a poll some where that might have the information though.

I always use point buy or standard array. But the great thing about D&D in general is that if it doesn't work for you - don't use it!

I only ever use Standard Array. 

I have a lot of point buy characters from AL and it's a solid way of making a character. You do have to make some decisions on ASI or feats here and there, but I have a lvl 20 I've played through AL with the point buy and the character is amazing. Outside of AL I roll and in the games I DM I make them roll (4d6 and drop the lowest). Rolling gets you more powerful characters, but not by a lot. You won't be ****** using point buy unless you just put points in dumb places.

Quote from Yurei1453 >>

Point buy tends to be deeply unsatisfying, as the game assumes characters will have scores higher than either point buy or standard array allow for.  A character with perfect racial scores for their class/build can hit the bottom edge of what the game wants, but that's about it.  The unpleasant pressure on one's numbers from being so weak they can't make even the most basic checks without and undue degree of luck means the Feat system in the game often goes unused.  Especially since the character-defining feats everybody likes are best taken very early in progression, so they can actually define a character.

I don't care for simply starting with a natively Heroic stat spread though, either.  My current game (on the DM side) has rolled arrays that ended up, through mostly luck and a little chicanery, averaging around 80.  It's obnoxious, and players have told me they honestly don't know what to do with ASIs anymore.

What I'd like to do, honestly, is say that every four levels a character gets a feat regardless of whatever else they're doing in their level progression and otherwise say ASIs have to be ASIs (unless they're the bonus ASIs from rogue or fighter), but even that feels a little weird and doesn't play well with multiclass progression.  Nevertheless, losing what amounts to the only way to actually customize and build your character after third level to "Man, I just don't have the breathing space to do anything but make my numbers bigger!" is enormously dismaying and why my play group has never complated more than a few games with point buy or standard array.

 This isn't actually true, the average result of 4d6kh1 is only 1.44 higher summed across all stats than standard array/point buy. The average on a dice roll for stats is 12.24, which totals to 73.44. The total of standard array/point buy is 72. 

Also, the game assumes standard array as the default, with rolling an 'advanced' option and point buy a variant

My tabletop games have almost always used  the standard array and have always had fun and worked together to make short work of their enemies regardless of how tough. When people roll their stats, there is almost ALWAYS one person who gets screwed with average to lower stats and that makes the game less fun for them when everyone else is ripping through everything and they feel like they aren't pulling their own weight. Often times, i would have to adjust someone's stats up a bit to get them to meet the average of the others.

Some people want to feel super heroic right out of the gate, and i get that, but I have also found that when the heroes grow and increase their stats as time passes, it feels like way more of an accomplishment to be honest. I usually have my players use standard array, and they increase their stats as they go along, but they also take some feats as well, and they always have fun and beat the bad guys.

If players take the standard array and they just can't win no matter what they do, then something is wrong with the adventure and it should be altered to compensate.

When I played 3.5e we used roll 4d6 7 times, drop the lowest d6 each time and drop the lowest final result so that we didn’t suck so much. 

When we switched to 4e it was always Point Buy because the perpetual Rogue player kept cheating his ability generating rolls and having 3 17-18+ abilities every new campaign. 

In 5e I use Point Buy, but in my games I usually grant players a bonus feat or ASI at 1st Level so that their first ASI or feat choice doesn’t feel so late at 4th and therefore harsh a decision (do I wait ANOTHER four levels!?).

I raise the challenge rating of encounters slightly to counter this, but I’ve found that that feat choice lets people have a character-defining ability from the get-go and not feel trapped between getting better at their abilities or exploring the feat system. 

https://www.enworld.org/threads/a-proper-ability-score-generation-preference-poll.598151/

According to that poll, 40% of responses (the #1 choice) go for 27-point "point buy".

Rolling 4d6 drop lowest got 19 votes.

Standard array got 17 votes.

Player's choice of rolling or array got another 20 votes.

Player's choice of rolling or point-buy picked up 26 votes.

So, overwhelmingly, 54.1% of responses included point-buy. To answer your original question, it seems that people who roll stats are actually in the *minority* for 5e.

In the name of fun, I am happily a Ralphie Wiggum in the corner shouting "Me like rolling numbers!"

From what I can tell... the DM can basically just adjust the game to fit the party. If everyone in the party rolls for stats and everyone gets 18s on one or more stat and overall have high stats, the DM needs to adjust conflicts and challenges to make sure the team doesn't just steamroll everything and get bored. Similarly, if the party ends up underpowered, the DM can adjust what they encounter and the challenge rating to fit what their group can handle. Standard array or point buy allows the DM to know ahead of time the upper limit of their party's potential power. You could play a game where every player has stats of 10 or less, and if the DM gives them challenges appropriate to that power level it will be fine. I think part of the challenge is people often feel... incomplete when they don't have at least a 20 in one stat. Going back to Videogame analogues... everyone knows there's some degree of satisfaction in filling out any bars or percentages or whatever to completion. A Wizard with an INT any lower than 20 will often have this feeling that there's a bar they just can't fill that should be filled.

I have used point buy in all but one of the campaigns that I either DM or play in over the past 5-6 years.  I also use feats in all of those campaigns and have level ranges from 1 up to 20 and haven't noticed it to be an issue at all.