like ignore all the stupid overpowered game features and just look at the disiplinces and what an mystic can do with them, they arent nessesarly powerful but they are just really really fun like i can just walk up to somebody with incredeble swagger and stabe them with my dagger only to watch as they get knocked back 20ft, hit a wall and take an extra 2d6 bludgeoning damage, i can beat somebody to death with an refrigerator, if you combine giant form with the enlarge/reduce spell you an become an gargantuan creature and fistfight the tarrasque, you can be an simic hybrid, jump several feet upward into the sky and glide all arround the battlefield, there are just a bunch of fun things you can do and love it
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The general take away is that mystics were fun if you were playing one, not fun if you were playing with one. They kind overshadowed every other party member in almost all circumstances.
They definitely seem fun and fill a niche that is not covered by other classes. And I hope they make a return after a rework that limits their versatility just a bit so they don't overlap with other classes so much, and are made slightly less complicated (psi points should probably be worked to use smaller numbers or use slots instead and points be optional, special psi points need to be removed entirely, focuses should probably be separate from disciplines and possibly combine with talents).
The general take away is that mystics were fun if you were playing one, not fun if you were playing with one. They kind overshadowed every other party member in almost all circumstances.
i kind of doubt that, no better combatants than fighters or paladins (unless you use mindblade), no more versatile than a wizard, no more raw magical potential than a sorcerer, worse healing than a cleric, worse blasters than wizards and sorcerers, an mystic will have incredebly few disiplinces compared to the spells available to each class, and they learn new ones incredebly slowly, so i do not understand how they could utshine every other part member in almost all circumstances, could you be so kind as to elaborate a bit here?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The general take away is that mystics were fun if you were playing one, not fun if you were playing with one. They kind overshadowed every other party member in almost all circumstances.
i kind of doubt that, no better combatants than fighters or paladins (unless you use mindblade), no more versatile than a wizard, no more raw magical potential than a sorcerer, worse healing than a cleric, worse blasters than wizards and sorcerers, an mystic will have incredebly few disiplinces compared to the spells available to each class, and they learn new ones incredebly slowly, so i do not understand how they could utshine every other part member in almost all circumstances, could you be so kind as to elaborate a bit here?
The general take away is that mystics were fun if you were playing one, not fun if you were playing with one. They kind overshadowed every other party member in almost all circumstances.
i kind of doubt that, no better combatants than fighters or paladins (unless you use mindblade), no more versatile than a wizard, no more raw magical potential than a sorcerer, worse healing than a cleric, worse blasters than wizards and sorcerers, an mystic will have incredebly few disiplinces compared to the spells available to each class, and they learn new ones incredebly slowly, so i do not understand how they could utshine every other part member in almost all circumstances, could you be so kind as to elaborate a bit here?
All that with just one very OP character
okay so if being pretty decent at everything makes a class OP then would the same not apply to bards?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
A college of swords bard still isn't as good as a regular fighter.
A college of lore bard still isn't as flexible a caster as a wizard or sorcerer.
A college of Valor bard still isn't as effective a support class as a cleric.
The point is bards can do a similar but not as good job to one other class based on their subclass. The mystic could do an as good if not better job that multiple classes at once.
A college of swords bard still isn't as good as a regular fighter.
A college of lore bard still isn't as flexible a caster as a wizard or sorcerer.
A college of Valor bard still isn't as effective a support class as a cleric.
The point is bards can do a similar but not as good job to one other class based on their subclass. The mystic could do an as good if not better job that multiple classes at once.
yeah and the same is true for mystics (provided you remove mystic restoration becuase its stupid and overpowered), for instance healing. With the equivolent of an 1st level spell slot, ie spending two psi points, an mystic can restore 2d8, average of 9 hit points, and they must always use their action to heal. In the meantime, another spellcaster could with an 1st level spell slot cast goodberry for an garanteed 10 hit points each time or for 1d8 plus spellcasting abillity in hit points, something that should be about 8.5 to 9.5 hit points healt per spell slot. An proper healing spellcaster should also have acess to healing word, a spell that heals less hit points overall but is less taxing on the action economy and can heal from far away (something also mystics dont have), and as the proper healing spellcaster progresses in levels, they have acess to higher level spells that are more effective, wheras the mystic is still stuck basically upcasting cure wounds for their action all the time.'
the mystic is mostly stuck to light armor and simple weapons, and their potent psionics feature for an extra d8 of psychic damage does not compare to the fighter's extra attacks in the slightest, unless of course you are an soulblade mystic but those are kinda stupid and overpowered and not every mystic is going to be an soulblade mystic eh, and an fighter will most likely have higher strength, dexterity and constiution scores than the mystic who also has to put points into intelegence, and for the most part the martial classes will outdo the mystic in terms of hit points
wizards are still way more flexible than the mystic, and while an mystic gains several effects from one disiplince the effects are ether worse versions of spells or an nice effect that has no equivalent in other spells that are honestly kinda not worth it like the abillity to be invisible while moving or to increase your movement speed for 1 round by 20 ft both for the same cost as an 1st level spell slot.
the valor bard is in my oppinon a really good support class, the bard in general is a good support class but that is one of the things bards are supposed to be good at, the mystic does get the "mantle of x" disiplinces that grant a lot of weird and wacky benefits that have no equivalent in other spells most of them are not exactly overpowered in the slightest.
again it feels like the core of the problems is a few really really strong class features, but the psionic system itself feels no more powerful than what is available to other classes. And again, you get like one disiplince if your subclass does not grant bonus disiplinces, yeah they could potentially do the job of another class but they would have to specialize kinda heavily, especially at early levels when only one or two disiplince can come from outside your subclass, you would need to specialize hevily to be an blaster, or to be an martial mystic or to be an support mystic and while you could pick disiplinces that dont nessesarily fit the build that you are trying to make, why would you? why pick mastery of flame or psionic restoration for your disiplinces if you are primarily an melee mystic and the cleric and wizards in your party can already do those things better, when you could instead go for giant growth or psionic weapon or iron body, perhaps you wanna focus on mobillity and instead go for mystic step or celerity? so then why waste your time and an incredebly limited resource on that? all you manage to do by making such a choice is to piss of your friends, like why would you EVER do that?
all you need to do to fix most of the problems is to rework a few of the subclasses, move psionic focus to second level, remove the feature that changes your save proficiencies and the one that heals you whenever you want, rework consumptive power and possibly add a system similar to components like maybe each disiplince has an certain "symptom", an supernatural effect that occurs arround you right before you use a effect from that disiplince like whenever you use mastery of fire you radiate heat, whenever you use psionic restoration your entire body glows, when you use nomadic step or diminution space feels warped arround you etc so that NPC's have a chance to notice that you are using disiplinces near them just like spell components
provided you remove mystic restoration becuase its stupid and overpowered
You can't say the class is fine and balanced if you're having to remove something.
I have DM'd for, played as, and played with a mystic character and it was pretty evident the class was grossly imbalanced and needed a massive overhaul. That might be fun for some mystic players, I'm not disagreeing with that. But that doesn't make for an overall fun class.
Goodberry is a bad argument since it takes 11 actions to recover 10 HP. They can also heal for half a spell slot (1 point). They may not have healing word, but they can literally cure wounds more times than a full caster. They also get lesser/greater restoration, revivify, and spare the dying from that 1 discipline, that is half the life domain's domain spells available to any and every mystic.
The problem with mystics isn't that they can out perform other classes, it is that they can to some extent match/fulfil the roles of 10 classes at a time. I only think that some disciplines should be removed/reduced and more strictly limited to subclass. So for example a healing/support subclass can't fulfil the roles of a tank and blaster as well.
provided you remove mystic restoration becuase its stupid and overpowered
You can't say the class is fine and balanced if you're having to remove something.
I have DM'd for, played as, and played with a mystic character and it was pretty evident the class was grossly imbalanced and needed a massive overhaul. That might be fun for some mystic players, I'm not disagreeing with that. But that doesn't make for an overall fun class.
yes, but my point is not exactly that the class is balanced on its own as it is when the UA released, i just think that the psionics itself, the main core mechanics are pretty fun, if maybe an tad underpowered, and that the core of the issue comes from some overtuned class features that can easily be homebrewed out. I just made this point to kinda point out the very weird, nicé fun effects that are cool but not very powerful, the abillity to jump really far will hardly break the game and the abillity to crush somebody with an fridge seems powerful until you realize that the save DC is 10 and it deals no damage on a failed save and even still it deals less damage than the typical fireball, i dont like the mystic becuase of the powerful or OP bits, i like it specifically for the small, weak unique effects some disiplinces have.
That being said i have never played an mystic or seen an mystic in play (i did play an mystic/sorcerer multiclass but i never progressed further than level 1), it is just that it feels that the disiplinces themselves are not that powerful, just incredebly fun and that as long as you stick to what makes sense for your character, you should be fine, the psionics mechanics and the disiplinces dont need an overhaul, its the class itself that needs an overhaul, and possibly a small minority of disiplinces that are obiously ridiculous like the abillity to create shadows that attack enemies and an better version of mage armor.
That being said, you seem to have a lot of experience with the mystic class, what do you think of the disiplinces and psi points themselves, how do you feel psionic effects compare to spells overall?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Goodberry is a bad argument since it takes 11 actions to recover 10 HP. They can also heal for half a spell slot (1 point). They may not have healing word, but they can literally cure wounds more times than a full caster. They also get lesser/greater restoration, revivify, and spare the dying from that 1 discipline, that is half the life domain's domain spells available to any and every mystic.
The problem with mystics isn't that they can out perform other classes, it is that they can to some extent match/fulfil the roles of 10 classes at a time. I only think that some disciplines should be removed/reduced and more strictly limited to subclass. So for example a healing/support subclass can't fulfil the roles of a tank and blaster as well.
but again, i dont understand, other than for people who are stupid minmaxers, why you would ever try to pick disiplinces to kind of fulfill the roles of more than one class when you can pick disiplinces to be good at one thing? I think the other disiplinces did a good job of making shure their effects did not overlap too heavily with spells, so removing psionic restoration or reworking it would be nice. But what do you mean with more strictly limited to subclass, that some disiplinces are only available to certain subclasses? If so wich ones?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Using a mystic, you don't even have to be a min/maxer to tread on the toes of the rest of the party. You can make basic, sensible choices with little consideration to power and just focus on what sounds cool and good for RP, and still make a character that basically upstages everyone else consistently.
It's a little moot to be honest, seeing as the mystic has been completely scraped by WotC and if they do release a psionic class, it'll likely take on a vastly different appearance.
Honestly, I've not given it much thought since the times I allowed mystic at my table and just thought "nah, this isn't balanced for fun or fairness, I'm not going to allow it at my table"
I'm not disagreeing with your initial premise that you find the mystic fun, that's not something I can or would try to disprove. All I'm saying is that it's not a balanced class and I agree with the decision by WotC to scrap the design.
like ignore all the stupid overpowered game features and just look at the disiplinces and what an mystic can do with them, they arent nessesarly powerful but they are just really really fun like i can just walk up to somebody with incredeble swagger and stabe them with my dagger only to watch as they get knocked back 20ft, hit a wall and take an extra 2d6 bludgeoning damage, i can beat somebody to death with an refrigerator, if you combine giant form with the enlarge/reduce spell you an become an gargantuan creature and fistfight the tarrasque, you can be an simic hybrid, jump several feet upward into the sky and glide all arround the battlefield, there are just a bunch of fun things you can do and love it
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I don't think anyone's argued that Mystics weren't fun, but they were broken.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The general take away is that mystics were fun if you were playing one, not fun if you were playing with one. They kind overshadowed every other party member in almost all circumstances.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
They definitely seem fun and fill a niche that is not covered by other classes. And I hope they make a return after a rework that limits their versatility just a bit so they don't overlap with other classes so much, and are made slightly less complicated (psi points should probably be worked to use smaller numbers or use slots instead and points be optional, special psi points need to be removed entirely, focuses should probably be separate from disciplines and possibly combine with talents).
i kind of doubt that, no better combatants than fighters or paladins (unless you use mindblade), no more versatile than a wizard, no more raw magical potential than a sorcerer, worse healing than a cleric, worse blasters than wizards and sorcerers, an mystic will have incredebly few disiplinces compared to the spells available to each class, and they learn new ones incredebly slowly, so i do not understand how they could utshine every other part member in almost all circumstances, could you be so kind as to elaborate a bit here?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
All that with just one very OP character
okay so if being pretty decent at everything makes a class OP then would the same not apply to bards?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
A college of swords bard still isn't as good as a regular fighter.
A college of lore bard still isn't as flexible a caster as a wizard or sorcerer.
A college of Valor bard still isn't as effective a support class as a cleric.
The point is bards can do a similar but not as good job to one other class based on their subclass. The mystic could do an as good if not better job that multiple classes at once.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
yeah and the same is true for mystics (provided you remove mystic restoration becuase its stupid and overpowered), for instance healing. With the equivolent of an 1st level spell slot, ie spending two psi points, an mystic can restore 2d8, average of 9 hit points, and they must always use their action to heal. In the meantime, another spellcaster could with an 1st level spell slot cast goodberry for an garanteed 10 hit points each time or for 1d8 plus spellcasting abillity in hit points, something that should be about 8.5 to 9.5 hit points healt per spell slot. An proper healing spellcaster should also have acess to healing word, a spell that heals less hit points overall but is less taxing on the action economy and can heal from far away (something also mystics dont have), and as the proper healing spellcaster progresses in levels, they have acess to higher level spells that are more effective, wheras the mystic is still stuck basically upcasting cure wounds for their action all the time.'
the mystic is mostly stuck to light armor and simple weapons, and their potent psionics feature for an extra d8 of psychic damage does not compare to the fighter's extra attacks in the slightest, unless of course you are an soulblade mystic but those are kinda stupid and overpowered and not every mystic is going to be an soulblade mystic eh, and an fighter will most likely have higher strength, dexterity and constiution scores than the mystic who also has to put points into intelegence, and for the most part the martial classes will outdo the mystic in terms of hit points
wizards are still way more flexible than the mystic, and while an mystic gains several effects from one disiplince the effects are ether worse versions of spells or an nice effect that has no equivalent in other spells that are honestly kinda not worth it like the abillity to be invisible while moving or to increase your movement speed for 1 round by 20 ft both for the same cost as an 1st level spell slot.
the valor bard is in my oppinon a really good support class, the bard in general is a good support class but that is one of the things bards are supposed to be good at, the mystic does get the "mantle of x" disiplinces that grant a lot of weird and wacky benefits that have no equivalent in other spells most of them are not exactly overpowered in the slightest.
again it feels like the core of the problems is a few really really strong class features, but the psionic system itself feels no more powerful than what is available to other classes. And again, you get like one disiplince if your subclass does not grant bonus disiplinces, yeah they could potentially do the job of another class but they would have to specialize kinda heavily, especially at early levels when only one or two disiplince can come from outside your subclass, you would need to specialize hevily to be an blaster, or to be an martial mystic or to be an support mystic and while you could pick disiplinces that dont nessesarily fit the build that you are trying to make, why would you? why pick mastery of flame or psionic restoration for your disiplinces if you are primarily an melee mystic and the cleric and wizards in your party can already do those things better, when you could instead go for giant growth or psionic weapon or iron body, perhaps you wanna focus on mobillity and instead go for mystic step or celerity? so then why waste your time and an incredebly limited resource on that? all you manage to do by making such a choice is to piss of your friends, like why would you EVER do that?
all you need to do to fix most of the problems is to rework a few of the subclasses, move psionic focus to second level, remove the feature that changes your save proficiencies and the one that heals you whenever you want, rework consumptive power and possibly add a system similar to components like maybe each disiplince has an certain "symptom", an supernatural effect that occurs arround you right before you use a effect from that disiplince like whenever you use mastery of fire you radiate heat, whenever you use psionic restoration your entire body glows, when you use nomadic step or diminution space feels warped arround you etc so that NPC's have a chance to notice that you are using disiplinces near them just like spell components
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
You can't say the class is fine and balanced if you're having to remove something.
I have DM'd for, played as, and played with a mystic character and it was pretty evident the class was grossly imbalanced and needed a massive overhaul. That might be fun for some mystic players, I'm not disagreeing with that. But that doesn't make for an overall fun class.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Goodberry is a bad argument since it takes 11 actions to recover 10 HP. They can also heal for half a spell slot (1 point). They may not have healing word, but they can literally cure wounds more times than a full caster. They also get lesser/greater restoration, revivify, and spare the dying from that 1 discipline, that is half the life domain's domain spells available to any and every mystic.
The problem with mystics isn't that they can out perform other classes, it is that they can to some extent match/fulfil the roles of 10 classes at a time. I only think that some disciplines should be removed/reduced and more strictly limited to subclass. So for example a healing/support subclass can't fulfil the roles of a tank and blaster as well.
yes, but my point is not exactly that the class is balanced on its own as it is when the UA released, i just think that the psionics itself, the main core mechanics are pretty fun, if maybe an tad underpowered, and that the core of the issue comes from some overtuned class features that can easily be homebrewed out. I just made this point to kinda point out the very weird, nicé fun effects that are cool but not very powerful, the abillity to jump really far will hardly break the game and the abillity to crush somebody with an fridge seems powerful until you realize that the save DC is 10 and it deals no damage on a failed save and even still it deals less damage than the typical fireball, i dont like the mystic becuase of the powerful or OP bits, i like it specifically for the small, weak unique effects some disiplinces have.
That being said i have never played an mystic or seen an mystic in play (i did play an mystic/sorcerer multiclass but i never progressed further than level 1), it is just that it feels that the disiplinces themselves are not that powerful, just incredebly fun and that as long as you stick to what makes sense for your character, you should be fine, the psionics mechanics and the disiplinces dont need an overhaul, its the class itself that needs an overhaul, and possibly a small minority of disiplinces that are obiously ridiculous like the abillity to create shadows that attack enemies and an better version of mage armor.
That being said, you seem to have a lot of experience with the mystic class, what do you think of the disiplinces and psi points themselves, how do you feel psionic effects compare to spells overall?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
but again, i dont understand, other than for people who are stupid minmaxers, why you would ever try to pick disiplinces to kind of fulfill the roles of more than one class when you can pick disiplinces to be good at one thing? I think the other disiplinces did a good job of making shure their effects did not overlap too heavily with spells, so removing psionic restoration or reworking it would be nice. But what do you mean with more strictly limited to subclass, that some disiplinces are only available to certain subclasses? If so wich ones?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Using a mystic, you don't even have to be a min/maxer to tread on the toes of the rest of the party. You can make basic, sensible choices with little consideration to power and just focus on what sounds cool and good for RP, and still make a character that basically upstages everyone else consistently.
It's a little moot to be honest, seeing as the mystic has been completely scraped by WotC and if they do release a psionic class, it'll likely take on a vastly different appearance.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
could you perhaps provide an simple example?
and how do you feel about the power level of disiplinces themselves compared to spells?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Honestly, I've not given it much thought since the times I allowed mystic at my table and just thought "nah, this isn't balanced for fun or fairness, I'm not going to allow it at my table"
I'm not disagreeing with your initial premise that you find the mystic fun, that's not something I can or would try to disprove. All I'm saying is that it's not a balanced class and I agree with the decision by WotC to scrap the design.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here