Names by definition are basically what other people have made a choice to call you. If somebody wants to call you by something random, then that's their name for you. So his examples seem relevant enough to the original comment (in this conversation it's the one that ends with "A Rose by any other name, Nod Dragon, can also be a Rosa"). I don't know if it's relevant to what you said though because you were very vague.
Can you please elaborate about what you said earlier? It's very interesting to hear the stances of different people on topics like this, however "it is simply incorrect." doesn't give people a lot of room to discuss. They're incorrect about what? Why?
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if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Names by definition are basically what other people have made a choice to call you. If somebody wants to call you by something random, then that's their name for you. So his examples seem relevant enough to the original comment (in this conversation it's the one that ends with "A Rose by any other name, Nod Dragon, can also be a Rosa"). I don't know if it's relevant to what you said though because you were very vague.
Can you please elaborate about what you said earlier? It's very interesting to hear the stances of different people on topics like this, however "it is simply incorrect." doesn't give people a lot of room to discuss. They're incorrect about what? Why?
Your name for someone else is fundamentally not their name. It's your name for them. And if they tell you that it's not their name and you insist that it is, you're both wrong and an *******. It's really simple. You can call someone something all you want, but you cannot give them a name if they don't accept it.
Okay, thanks for elaborating at least. This will probably also come off as disrespectful no matter how many edits so I can't really complain.
"a word or set of words by which a person, animal, place, or thing is known, addressed, or referred to."
What a person wants to be called is what they would preferred to have their name be, and I want to emphasis that it is very respectful to address them as such, and very disrespectful to ignore their wishes as everybody agrees (at least we all hope everybody agrees, Kotath doesn't appear to be as enthusiastic). However by google dictionary (which apparently comes from Oxfordlanguages (separate links for each definition)), it is not their only name. To make this even clearer, here is the definition of a nickname.
"a familiar or humorous name given to a person or thing instead of or as well as the real name."
It states that a nickname is a familiar/humorous name, in other words, it is also their name. While I want to again emphasis that, if someone refuses to call you by the name you wish to be called, it is indeed very rude. Everybody here agrees on that. This is simply a error of misinterpreting words, as seen in the definition of nickname. Somebody's name for themselves is known as a real name. Although some people prefer others call them by a nickname instead of what they call themselves, but that is obviously not what we are discussing.
Edit: I forgot to bring up the point of this discussion. Kotath was arguing that while the people here do agree that everybody should call people by what they want to be called, Kotath states that sadly some people are jerks and don't do that. That was the original stance that they probably still keep, if you want to argue that stance you may do so.
I have found this discussion to be most informative. Even the argument about whether or not it is disrespectful to call somebody by a name, which is not their name, has been rather insightful and might help me to roleplay this character when his name inevitably gets misspelt or mispronounced.
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A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Edit: I forgot to bring up the point of this discussion. Kotath was arguing that while the people here do agree that everybody should call people by what they want to be called, Kotath states that sadly some people are jerks and don't do that. That was the original stance that they probably still keep, if you want to argue that stance you may do so.
Just want to touch on this specifically as well. I was not saying that they are just being jerks. Some languages are so disparate that someone native to one of them has a very difficult time pronouncing words or names from the other. This is one of the main reasons for regional name changes. When one is the outsider, one can either try to convince your entire community to adopt your customs and speech patterns, or you can learn to adopt theirs. If you are the one willing to change, it only requires you to compromise, rather than expecting the entire community to do so. Alternative names are simply practical. They are usually not malicious, nor intentionally disrespectful.
And in cases where the language differences are extreme, there is an argument that the person insisting on retaining only their birth name (which again, never actually goes away) is the one showing disrespect to the new community in which they are now living.
This is also true. I only thought of this after I wrote my last post, but-- Chinese exchange students who go overseas where virtually no one has any familiarity with the Chinese vowel sounds, several of which to any speaker of a romantic or germanic based language are going to sound exactly the same, just choose anglicized names that have absolutely nothing to do with their original name. They'll just decide on some often clearly British name (often ones decades out of popularity) and begin using that as their name.
I think some Chinese guy some decades ago created a chart of what he arbitrarily decided was the "English version" of certain common Chinese names and people have been using it ever since. While it is generally relied on as a guide, it is by no means a firm thing. Like I knew one girl who was told by her teachers in China that she should go by "Alice", but she decided instead to go by Iris (perhaps partially because she was studying in Japan and there is no "l" sound in Japanese.)
(perhaps partially because she was studying in Japan and there is no "l" sound in Japanese.)
That is not actually strictly true. An 'r' seems typically be pronounced more as 'l' or 'hl.' One of my favourite early animes is Ranma 1/2, where the title character's name is pronounced more like Hlanma. However if they spelled their name 'Arice' it would really confuse English speakers.....
"Arice".. I think I have just seen where all the badly localised English names in anime and JRPGs comes from.
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A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
When it comes to name translations, there are really traditions, rather than rules. Worse, over time, the translations get twisted.
The worst one such twisting that I am aware of is this.
There was never any person named Jesus of Nazareth. There was a very kind person that went by the name of Yeshua (pronounced like Yea Shoe Ah) of Nazareth. Jews still use that name with a slight twist, calling their kids Joshua or Josh for short. But the Romans were totally unable or willing to use the name Yeshua or Joshua. So they re-wrote his name and pronounced it Jesus.
Not to nit-pick, but the Romans went with "Jesus" (as opposed to Yeshua ben Yosef-- literally in English 'Joshua, son of Joseph') because Jesus is the Greek translation of the name, which they were more familiar with by the time of Emperor Constantine.
Not related at all, but yeah, generally only ancient names of great historical/cultural significance get translated if you have multiple cultures for whom they hold significance (see also the prophet Isa in the Quran, aka Jesus aka Yeshua aka etc), but individuals in the present day would not find themselves in the same position, unless they have various titles or nicknames that also span different cultures, as is the case with Frankish king Charles the First, or Charles the Great, or in French, Charelemagne. (Also as a side note, his grandfather Charles Martel had the cooler nickname, "Charles the Hammer.")
*Edit*
Regarding figures with multiple names/nicknames spanning language and cultures, I tragically left out the best example:
"Usidore the Blue, Wizard of the 12th Realm of Ephysiyies, Master of Light and Shadow, Manipulator of Magical Delights, Devourer of Chaos, Champion of the Great Halls of Terr'akkas. The elves know me as Fi’ang Yalok. The dwarfs know me as Zoenen Hoogstandjes. And I am also known in the Northeast as Gaismunēnas Meistar"
Like we said earlier there is NO WAY TO TRANSLATE NAMES. Translation requires a word that previously exists in both languages. You can't say that the Romans decided to use the 'Greek version' because the Greeks did not have some magical power to change someone's name anymore than the Romans did.
If one Greek idiot decides that he can't pronounce Mog Dracov, and decides to call me Nod Dragon, that does not magically make it all right for a Roman to call me Nod Dragon.
All you have done is move the mis-pronounciation from the Romans to the Greeks.
Names exist (and I would argue as owned by) the people who use them, not the people they refer to. It's alright for someone to call you William, but the question is if you would know to respond to it. They're only labels to lower the cognitive load of refering to something without needing to describe it every time you wish to. Maybe they can't be translated, but that doesn't really matter. Look at Chinese names for countries (or the word "Chinese" which basically hasn't moved past the Qin dynasty, around 200 BC). Or Nippon or any number of Endonyms to realise that this whole idea of the sanctity of names simply doesn't exist on the international scale and when we decide to collectively call a country "Qin-a", then that's becomes a translation of Zhongguo or "middle kingdom".
When it comes to name translations, there are really traditions, rather than rules. Worse, over time, the translations get twisted.
The worst one such twisting that I am aware of is this.
There was never any person named Jesus of Nazareth. There was a very kind person that went by the name of Yeshua (pronounced like Yea Shoe Ah) of Nazareth. Jews still use that name with a slight twist, calling their kids Joshua or Josh for short. But the Romans were totally unable or willing to use the name Yeshua or Joshua. So they re-wrote his name and pronounced it Jesus.
Not to nit-pick, but the Romans went with "Jesus" (as opposed to Yeshua ben Yosef-- literally in English 'Joshua, son of Joseph') because Jesus is the Greek translation of the name, which they were more familiar with by the time of Emperor Constantine.
Not related at all, but yeah, generally only ancient names of great historical/cultural significance get translated if you have multiple cultures for whom they hold significance (see also the prophet Isa in the Quran, aka Jesus aka Yeshua aka etc), but individuals in the present day would not find themselves in the same position, unless they have various titles or nicknames that also span different cultures, as is the case with Frankish king Charles the First, or Charles the Great, or in French, Charelemagne. (Also as a side note, his grandfather Charles Martel had the cooler nickname, "Charles the Hammer.")
*Edit*
Regarding figures with multiple names/nicknames spanning language and cultures, I tragically left out the best example:
"Usidore the Blue, Wizard of the 12th Realm of Ephysiyies, Master of Light and Shadow, Manipulator of Magical Delights, Devourer of Chaos, Champion of the Great Halls of Terr'akkas. The elves know me as Fi’ang Yalok. The dwarfs know me as Zoenen Hoogstandjes. And I am also known in the Northeast as Gaismunēnas Meistar"
Like we said earlier there is NO WAY TO TRANSLATE NAMES. Translation requires a word that previously exists in both languages. You can't say that the Romans decided to use the 'Greek version' because the Greeks did not have some magical power to change someone's name anymore than the Romans did.
If one Greek idiot decides that he can't pronounce Mog Dracov, and decides to call me Nod Dragon, that does not magically make it all right for a Roman to call me Nod Dragon.
All you have done is move the mis-pronounciation from the Romans to the Greeks.
Names exist (and I would argue as owned by) the people who use them, not the people they refer to. It's alright for someone to call you William, but the question is if you would know to respond to it. They're only labels to lower the cognitive load of refering to something without needing to describe it every time you wish to. Maybe they can't be translated, but that doesn't really matter. Look at Chinese names for countries (or the word "Chinese" which basically hasn't moved past the Qin dynasty, around 200 BC). Or Nippon or any number of Endonyms to realise that this whole idea of the sanctity of names simply doesn't exist on the international scale and when we decide to collectively call a country "Qin-a", then that's becomes a translation of Zhongguo or "middle kingdom".
In the real world, you are correct, but in the world of the game, names have power. Entities go to great lengths to hide their real names, even as far as using the names of others or making something up on the fly. I would argue that in-game, every person and thing has a "true" name - the name of their soul, and whatever name they use in their mortal lives, the name of their soul is immortal, transcending time and space and worldly concerns, and from it come all the names by which others will ever know you.
Not canon but I would say that through your "true" name you connect to the universe. That connection goes back to the dawn of everything when all souls were one before light and life split off from the void and formed places and people and things of their own, and it is through this connection that people and places and things possess magic. Knowing your "true" name gives you power, and knowing the "true" name of another, gives you control over that person or place or thing.
Even the void, the cradle of all reality has a "true" name, and if you knew it, you could undo everything - all creation would crumble, all things would die, all light extinguished. Only the void would remain, dark and cold, all-consuming and lifeless, save for its own.
It is canon that there is one who supposedly knows this final word, and I would posit that the "final" word is, in reality, the "true" name of the void.
The long and short of it is that names do matter. They matter in the real world, but they matter even more in the world of the game.
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A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
When it comes to name translations, there are really traditions, rather than rules. Worse, over time, the translations get twisted.
The worst one such twisting that I am aware of is this.
There was never any person named Jesus of Nazareth. There was a very kind person that went by the name of Yeshua (pronounced like Yea Shoe Ah) of Nazareth. Jews still use that name with a slight twist, calling their kids Joshua or Josh for short. But the Romans were totally unable or willing to use the name Yeshua or Joshua. So they re-wrote his name and pronounced it Jesus.
Not to nit-pick, but the Romans went with "Jesus" (as opposed to Yeshua ben Yosef-- literally in English 'Joshua, son of Joseph') because Jesus is the Greek translation of the name, which they were more familiar with by the time of Emperor Constantine.
Not related at all, but yeah, generally only ancient names of great historical/cultural significance get translated if you have multiple cultures for whom they hold significance (see also the prophet Isa in the Quran, aka Jesus aka Yeshua aka etc), but individuals in the present day would not find themselves in the same position, unless they have various titles or nicknames that also span different cultures, as is the case with Frankish king Charles the First, or Charles the Great, or in French, Charelemagne. (Also as a side note, his grandfather Charles Martel had the cooler nickname, "Charles the Hammer.")
*Edit*
Regarding figures with multiple names/nicknames spanning language and cultures, I tragically left out the best example:
"Usidore the Blue, Wizard of the 12th Realm of Ephysiyies, Master of Light and Shadow, Manipulator of Magical Delights, Devourer of Chaos, Champion of the Great Halls of Terr'akkas. The elves know me as Fi’ang Yalok. The dwarfs know me as Zoenen Hoogstandjes. And I am also known in the Northeast as Gaismunēnas Meistar"
Like we said earlier there is NO WAY TO TRANSLATE NAMES. Translation requires a word that previously exists in both languages. You can't say that the Romans decided to use the 'Greek version' because the Greeks did not have some magical power to change someone's name anymore than the Romans did.
If one Greek idiot decides that he can't pronounce Mog Dracov, and decides to call me Nod Dragon, that does not magically make it all right for a Roman to call me Nod Dragon.
All you have done is move the mis-pronounciation from the Romans to the Greeks.
Names exist (and I would argue as owned by) the people who use them, not the people they refer to. It's alright for someone to call you William, but the question is if you would know to respond to it. They're only labels to lower the cognitive load of refering to something without needing to describe it every time you wish to. Maybe they can't be translated, but that doesn't really matter. Look at Chinese names for countries (or the word "Chinese" which basically hasn't moved past the Qin dynasty, around 200 BC). Or Nippon or any number of Endonyms to realise that this whole idea of the sanctity of names simply doesn't exist on the international scale and when we decide to collectively call a country "Qin-a", then that's becomes a translation of Zhongguo or "middle kingdom".
In the real world, you are correct, but in the world of the game, names have power. Entities go to great lengths to hide their real names, even as far as using the names of others or making something up on the fly. I would argue that in-game, every person and thing has a "true" name - the name of their soul, and whatever name they use in their mortal lives, the name of their soul is immortal, transcending time and space and worldly concerns, and from it come all the names by which others will ever know you.
Not canon but I would say that through your "true" name you connect to the universe. That connection goes back to the dawn of everything when all souls were one before light and life split off from the void and formed places and people and things of their own, and it is through this connection that people and places and things possess magic. Knowing your "true" name gives you power, and knowing the "true" name of another, gives you control over that person or place or thing.
Even the void, the cradle of all reality has a "true" name, and if you knew it, you could undo everything - all creation would crumble, all things would die, all light extinguished. Only the void would remain, dark and cold, all-consuming and lifeless, save for its own.
It is canon that there is one who supposedly knows this final word, and I would posit that the "final" word is, in reality, the "true" name of the void.
The long and short of it is that names do matter. They matter in the real world, but they matter even more in the world of the game.
Even in your example, where you want "name magic" to be a thing in your own personal Dungeon & Dragons world-- and it absolutely can be, when you are the DM or you get a DM to agree to incorporate that element, you absolutely can do that. In general, I can't recall any such thing arising in any Dungeons & Dragon story outside of maybe in the very narrow context of Jinns and Demons (and likely as an extension of that, Angels).
When it comes to mortal beings, what people call you would not be your soul's "true name" but simply whatever your characters parents (or possibly society) thought was a good idea when you were born. Or possibly some days later in the case of society where, because of high infant mortality, a name isn't given until the parents are pretty sure that this one is going to live. Or possibly, in some specific cultures, what you thought was a good idea at the time when you became officially "an adult" when you got a chance to choose one yourself. Or maybe some time later, either because you are trying to escape something you did or so that you can fit in better with a new society, you might decide to start having people call you something different and that becomes your new name.
Ultimately it is just a label for people to reference you by-- and not some mystical secret that allows one to control your very soul merely by speaking the word with the intent of referencing you. It is very likely that virtually all individuals, except maybe in societies that are "in the know" when it comes to name magic and have some ability to reveal the "true name" of a soul, are going to be totally unaware that any sort of "true name" for them even exists.
A “True Name” with capital letters and quotes and all that is more than just a matching of words. It is an understanding of who and what that creature or thing is down to its very essence. This was how it was explained to me once and I’ll never forget it:
You know when you were a kid and your mom got mad and called you by all your names and you would get that shiver down your spine? Back then your mom knew you better than anyone. It had power over you. As you got older, you grew and changed as a person, you evolved. Your mom’s understanding of you also evolved, but not necessarily correctly. So now, you still feel the memory of that shiver, but the compulsion is not there, because she no longer knows your “True Name.”
Names by definition are basically what other people have made a choice to call you. If somebody wants to call you by something random, then that's their name for you. So his examples seem relevant enough to the original comment (in this conversation it's the one that ends with "A Rose by any other name, Nod Dragon, can also be a Rosa"). I don't know if it's relevant to what you said though because you were very vague.
Can you please elaborate about what you said earlier? It's very interesting to hear the stances of different people on topics like this, however "it is simply incorrect." doesn't give people a lot of room to discuss. They're incorrect about what? Why?
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Your name for someone else is fundamentally not their name. It's your name for them. And if they tell you that it's not their name and you insist that it is, you're both wrong and an *******. It's really simple. You can call someone something all you want, but you cannot give them a name if they don't accept it.
Okay, thanks for elaborating at least. This will probably also come off as disrespectful no matter how many edits so I can't really complain.
"a word or set of words by which a person, animal, place, or thing is known, addressed, or referred to."
What a person wants to be called is what they would preferred to have their name be, and I want to emphasis that it is very respectful to address them as such, and very disrespectful to ignore their wishes as everybody agrees (at least we all hope everybody agrees, Kotath doesn't appear to be as enthusiastic). However by google dictionary (which apparently comes from Oxford languages (separate links for each definition)), it is not their only name. To make this even clearer, here is the definition of a nickname.
"a familiar or humorous name given to a person or thing instead of or as well as the real name."
It states that a nickname is a familiar/humorous name, in other words, it is also their name. While I want to again emphasis that, if someone refuses to call you by the name you wish to be called, it is indeed very rude. Everybody here agrees on that. This is simply a error of misinterpreting words, as seen in the definition of nickname. Somebody's name for themselves is known as a real name. Although some people prefer others call them by a nickname instead of what they call themselves, but that is obviously not what we are discussing.
Edit: I forgot to bring up the point of this discussion. Kotath was arguing that while the people here do agree that everybody should call people by what they want to be called, Kotath states that sadly some people are jerks and don't do that. That was the original stance that they probably still keep, if you want to argue that stance you may do so.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
I have found this discussion to be most informative. Even the argument about whether or not it is disrespectful to call somebody by a name, which is not their name, has been rather insightful and might help me to roleplay this character when his name inevitably gets misspelt or mispronounced.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
This is also true. I only thought of this after I wrote my last post, but-- Chinese exchange students who go overseas where virtually no one has any familiarity with the Chinese vowel sounds, several of which to any speaker of a romantic or germanic based language are going to sound exactly the same, just choose anglicized names that have absolutely nothing to do with their original name. They'll just decide on some often clearly British name (often ones decades out of popularity) and begin using that as their name.
I think some Chinese guy some decades ago created a chart of what he arbitrarily decided was the "English version" of certain common Chinese names and people have been using it ever since. While it is generally relied on as a guide, it is by no means a firm thing. Like I knew one girl who was told by her teachers in China that she should go by "Alice", but she decided instead to go by Iris (perhaps partially because she was studying in Japan and there is no "l" sound in Japanese.)
"Arice".. I think I have just seen where all the badly localised English names in anime and JRPGs comes from.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
The Wikipedia article on Jackie Chan is quite enlightening on the subject of names.
Names exist (and I would argue as owned by) the people who use them, not the people they refer to. It's alright for someone to call you William, but the question is if you would know to respond to it. They're only labels to lower the cognitive load of refering to something without needing to describe it every time you wish to. Maybe they can't be translated, but that doesn't really matter. Look at Chinese names for countries (or the word "Chinese" which basically hasn't moved past the Qin dynasty, around 200 BC). Or Nippon or any number of Endonyms to realise that this whole idea of the sanctity of names simply doesn't exist on the international scale and when we decide to collectively call a country "Qin-a", then that's becomes a translation of Zhongguo or "middle kingdom".
In the real world, you are correct, but in the world of the game, names have power. Entities go to great lengths to hide their real names, even as far as using the names of others or making something up on the fly. I would argue that in-game, every person and thing has a "true" name - the name of their soul, and whatever name they use in their mortal lives, the name of their soul is immortal, transcending time and space and worldly concerns, and from it come all the names by which others will ever know you.
Not canon but I would say that through your "true" name you connect to the universe. That connection goes back to the dawn of everything when all souls were one before light and life split off from the void and formed places and people and things of their own, and it is through this connection that people and places and things possess magic. Knowing your "true" name gives you power, and knowing the "true" name of another, gives you control over that person or place or thing.
Even the void, the cradle of all reality has a "true" name, and if you knew it, you could undo everything - all creation would crumble, all things would die, all light extinguished. Only the void would remain, dark and cold, all-consuming and lifeless, save for its own.
It is canon that there is one who supposedly knows this final word, and I would posit that the "final" word is, in reality, the "true" name of the void.
The long and short of it is that names do matter. They matter in the real world, but they matter even more in the world of the game.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Even in your example, where you want "name magic" to be a thing in your own personal Dungeon & Dragons world-- and it absolutely can be, when you are the DM or you get a DM to agree to incorporate that element, you absolutely can do that. In general, I can't recall any such thing arising in any Dungeons & Dragon story outside of maybe in the very narrow context of Jinns and Demons (and likely as an extension of that, Angels).
When it comes to mortal beings, what people call you would not be your soul's "true name" but simply whatever your characters parents (or possibly society) thought was a good idea when you were born. Or possibly some days later in the case of society where, because of high infant mortality, a name isn't given until the parents are pretty sure that this one is going to live. Or possibly, in some specific cultures, what you thought was a good idea at the time when you became officially "an adult" when you got a chance to choose one yourself. Or maybe some time later, either because you are trying to escape something you did or so that you can fit in better with a new society, you might decide to start having people call you something different and that becomes your new name.
Ultimately it is just a label for people to reference you by-- and not some mystical secret that allows one to control your very soul merely by speaking the word with the intent of referencing you. It is very likely that virtually all individuals, except maybe in societies that are "in the know" when it comes to name magic and have some ability to reveal the "true name" of a soul, are going to be totally unaware that any sort of "true name" for them even exists.
A “True Name” with capital letters and quotes and all that is more than just a matching of words. It is an understanding of who and what that creature or thing is down to its very essence. This was how it was explained to me once and I’ll never forget it:
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