It is a mistake to view orcs, drow, elves, dwarves, as "real world analogs" of human cultures. They are not. They are fantastical species (or races if you wish) that have been, for ages, directly influenced by particular gods. They wouldn't likely feel they have the same "choose who you want to be" freedom that real-world humans have been taught we have in recent history.
Furthermore, not only is their world much more directly influenced by the gods, but if we are going to keep talking about biology, it is not canon that the sentient species (or races, if you wish) in the D&D universes have descended from a common ancestor as scientists have come to believe happened with similar species on earth. If a wolf and a coyote can interbreed, that's because their genetics are similar due to common ancestry. They have similar reproductive organs or behaviors because they inherited those from the same ancestor, and so interbreeding is possible. But the D&D world, as I said above, does not appear to have what one would call "normal evolution" or natural selection occurring. The history is too short (I could find no timeline before about 40,000 years "ago" but it's pretty clear the history does not extend billions of years, which is what you'd need it to do for normal evolution to have occurred). And even if evolution kind-of has occurred, it's been monkeyed with in dramatic supernatural ways by the presence of magic and dozens of interfering gods. Consequently, one cannot assume the sort of real-world genetic relationships or the real-world variability among the D&D species that one sees in our world. After all, as far as Monster Manual is concerned, it's possible to have a world in which humans coexist with dinosaurs -- yet another example of how evolution cannot possibly have occurred in the "normal" way on Toril or Oerth or any of those other D&D worlds.
That's why I say it is a mistake to try and analogize any of the D&D "demi-human" races with humans of the real world. It makes some sense to assume humans are as variable on Toril or Oerth or Eberron as we are in real life because, well, that variability is what we know, and if you're going to have humans, they should be pretty much exactly like real world humans. But none of the other races needs to, or in my opinion should, be exactly like humans. Elves are not "humans with pointed ears." They are not just physically different, the way humans are from each other in the real world. They are magical. They come (according to MTF) from Corellon Larethian's blood, for crying out loud, and they reincarnate, and they cavorted among the various planes before some of them settled in the PM plane on Toril or Oerth or wherever. Not only shouldn't one assume that a race such as this would be exactly like humans in its motivations or variability, but it is utterly unthinkable that it would be. Rather, the only reasonable assumption one could make is that elvish culture would be utterly alien and completely different from ours. And there is no reason to assume it would be just as variable or that all the types of variations of human behavior and culture would exist in a race that reincarnates, and whose progenitors sprang from droplets of a god's blood.
I mean think about it -- these elves, if they even have genes (who knows if gods have DNA?), would be genetically identical to Corellon, right? At least on earth, the process of taking someone's blood and growing a living person from it would be called cloning. So now we have a race that is essentially down-powered clones of a god -- and we're going to assume that it makes sense to RP them as if they are just pointy-eared humans?!? That, to me, makes no sense at all. And it destroys what is potentially so interesting about other races -- that they would have alien, almost impossible-to-understand, thought processes, motivations, and personalities. To simply copy-paste human culture onto them borders on being criminally wasteful of story-telling potential.
As a DM, my answer to any player who said, "I want to play race X but RP it as if I am basically just a typical human," would be, "Then play a human." If they're in it for the racial stat bonuses, I'll freaking GIVE them whatever bonus they want. But if you're going to play an Aarakocra who lives only 30 years and is an adult by 3, you should darn well play something that acts a lot differently from a human, and you should assume your culture is wildly different from, and nothing like, human society. And one of those ways it could be different is that it is not as variable.
In fact that is typically, in RPGs with multiple species (or races, if you prefer) what singles out humans. The other races are more monolithic, more "standardized," if you will, and tend to have a "racial personality", and they get some advantages for that (Dwarves are strong and tough; elves are clever and magical; halflings are small and agile -- and all of these, to a greater degree than humans tend to be). The other races are usually "specialists," and humans are "generalists" or "jacks of all trades." This makes humans not as good at any one thing than the specialist race, but but makes them "Ok at everything," whereas traditionally, the other races were great at one thing and terrible at everything else.
I guess a lot of people don't want to RP that way, though. They want their character to look like an orc, or a drow, or a halfling, but be human in every other way. And if that's how the majority of D&D players want to do it, then I guess WOTC has no choice but to go there. But to make all the races just be funny looking humans, to me, wastes so much story-telling and RP potential that it is, as I say, bordering on criminal negligence. After all, you can "just play a human" in any game. Only in D&D (or games like it) can you play a dwarf. Why not play a real one instead of a short, stocky human?
We should definitely appreciate the fact that elven culture at its roots is very different from human culture, but we shouldn’t assume that elves have a monolithic “racial personality” either. Some elven cultures, such as the grugach (wild elves) of Greyhawk, may seem alien to human eyes; others, such as the flamenco elves of Glantri, have evolved similar to the Spanish Hidalgo culture of the 18th and early 19th centuries. There’s nothing wrong with celebrating elven diversity.
It is a mistake to view orcs, drow, elves, dwarves, as "real world analogs" of human cultures. They are not. They are fantastical species (or races if you wish) that have been, for ages, directly influenced by particular gods. They wouldn't likely feel they have the same "choose who you want to be" freedom that real-world humans have been taught we have in recent history.
Much snipped for brevity, although I did read it.
If you check human history, you will find that what you are saying about fantastical species applies to most of human history with respect to religion in human cultures. While it is true that the gods do clearly actually exist in D&D settings, those settings have also had advanced civilizations a lot longer than we humans here on Earth have. That means they have had a lot more time to refine philosophies. Yes there are gods, but there is nevertheless free will.
Furthermore, even though it is a fantasy world and not the real world, it is still a parallel existence pattered after our own, if for no other reason that it is we as humans writing it. When you say there are racial personalities, you are using exactly the same rhetoric used to label and dismiss any given human race, religion, country or culture. Do you really not understand how problematic that is? Many of those in the real world doing such things are doing so on religious grounds, because they believe their God tells them so, or when not on religious grounds, because their leaders tell them so. And there are actual cultures in our real world, that are still embraced and for the most part there is nothing wrong with that. Concepts such as moderation, tolerance, equality are themselves cultural values, and in theory, the real world major religions even speak in favour of such concepts, despite other passages being less so and despite any given religious leader not necessarily emphasising them.
When you talk about racial personalities, I put it to you that you really are talking about cultural influences. By their very nature, regional demographics normally start with races divided. It does not matter whether it is evolution, with races being the result of adaptions to different local environments or creation, with races being set in regions appropriate to what their creator god had in mind for them. Each race has its origin point and multiplies and expands from there. Each develops culture due to reaction to its environment. Where gods are involved, they may or may not be part of that 'environment' but it is not a given that they are as active as you seem to portray them. Even Lolth rules by minions and edicts rather than literal divine intervention.
As time moves on, cultures meet and interact, sometimes positively, other times not so much. Races intermingle. There will be clashes over differences but there will also be sharing of ideas too. To the extent gods are involved, so is worship, and as ideas shift, so do church power bases.
And even before there is any contact, chaos exists. There will be chaotic individuals who rebel against the status quo. In chaotic societies there will be lawful individuals who try to organize resistance. Such is the nature of free will.
That is the real bottom line. If there is free will, then there will be individuals who do not fit any given cultural mold, even amongst those living in that culture. They will likely be unhappy, they may well be persecuted, but they will exist. The alternative is that there is no free will, that only PC's are 'real' and there is no real objection to being a murderhobo since you really wouldn't be killing any sentient individuals, merely pre-programmed automatons.
That is an interesting opinion. I believe that The Witcher is a much better series than Game of Thrones but to each their own.
However, that is not the topic of this thread.
I have to agree with BioWizard, but I am not really opposed to the idea that, if given opportunity, a large number of Orcs, Drow and other Races that have cultures with questionable morals could and would splinter off and start a new life for themselves. I don't see Gruumsh or Lolth being pleased about it, but the struggle is what makes epic stories.
The only way I see that happening for the Orcs is if the.... mother bear goddess whose name escapes me atm... breaks away from Gruumsh, within the pantheon. Orcish society is extremely spiritual, which is why Orcs are described as brutish smash-n-grab raiders in the first place -- that's what Gruumsh has dictated it means to be a "proper" Orc. The den mother has a different view, but she can't break away from Gruumsh while the divine conflict of the Orcish pantheon continues, as it would leave Gruumsh outnumbered and he'd be overwhelmed.
Or we could just treat Volo's Guide like it's not the definitive guide to how all orcs everywhere act.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That is an interesting opinion. I believe that The Witcher is a much better series than Game of Thrones but to each their own.
However, that is not the topic of this thread.
I have to agree with BioWizard, but I am not really opposed to the idea that, if given opportunity, a large number of Orcs, Drow and other Races that have cultures with questionable morals could and would splinter off and start a new life for themselves. I don't see Gruumsh or Lolth being pleased about it, but the struggle is what makes epic stories.
The only way I see that happening for the Orcs is if the.... mother bear goddess whose name escapes me atm... breaks away from Gruumsh, within the pantheon. Orcish society is extremely spiritual, which is why Orcs are described as brutish smash-n-grab raiders in the first place -- that's what Gruumsh has dictated it means to be a "proper" Orc. The den mother has a different view, but she can't break away from Gruumsh while the divine conflict of the Orcish pantheon continues, as it would leave Gruumsh outnumbered and he'd be overwhelmed.
Or we could just treat Volo's Guide like it's not the definitive guide to how all orcs everywhere act.
I don't disagree, but you'd need a new setting for that. As I explained, it would need to be a setting where either the gods are distant and passive, or a setting where the Orcs worship different gods or none of the gods. That's why Eberron has different Orcs -- Gruumsh doesn't interact in any meaningful way with the Orcish tribes, any more than the Elven gods interact directly with them. And it's also why the Drow are a part of normal society, so much so that they have their own Dragonmarked house -- Lolth doesn't have influence over their lives, and as such, they are not restricted by her edicts.
That is an interesting opinion. I believe that The Witcher is a much better series than Game of Thrones but to each their own.
However, that is not the topic of this thread.
I have to agree with BioWizard, but I am not really opposed to the idea that, if given opportunity, a large number of Orcs, Drow and other Races that have cultures with questionable morals could and would splinter off and start a new life for themselves. I don't see Gruumsh or Lolth being pleased about it, but the struggle is what makes epic stories.
The only way I see that happening for the Orcs is if the.... mother bear goddess whose name escapes me atm... breaks away from Gruumsh, within the pantheon. Orcish society is extremely spiritual, which is why Orcs are described as brutish smash-n-grab raiders in the first place -- that's what Gruumsh has dictated it means to be a "proper" Orc. The den mother has a different view, but she can't break away from Gruumsh while the divine conflict of the Orcish pantheon continues, as it would leave Gruumsh outnumbered and he'd be overwhelmed.
Or we could just treat Volo's Guide like it's not the definitive guide to how all orcs everywhere act.
I don't disagree, but you'd need a new setting for that. As I explained, it would need to be a setting where either the gods are distant and passive, or a setting where the Orcs worship different gods or none of the gods. That's why Eberron has different Orcs -- Gruumsh doesn't interact in any meaningful way with the Orcish tribes, any more than the Elven gods interact directly with them. And it's also why the Drow are a part of normal society, so much so that they have their own Dragonmarked house -- Lolth doesn't have influence over their lives, and as such, they are not restricted by her edicts.
I like how Eberron does things. Very 21st century.
That is an interesting opinion. I believe that The Witcher is a much better series than Game of Thrones but to each their own.
However, that is not the topic of this thread.
I have to agree with BioWizard, but I am not really opposed to the idea that, if given opportunity, a large number of Orcs, Drow and other Races that have cultures with questionable morals could and would splinter off and start a new life for themselves. I don't see Gruumsh or Lolth being pleased about it, but the struggle is what makes epic stories.
The only way I see that happening for the Orcs is if the.... mother bear goddess whose name escapes me atm... breaks away from Gruumsh, within the pantheon. Orcish society is extremely spiritual, which is why Orcs are described as brutish smash-n-grab raiders in the first place -- that's what Gruumsh has dictated it means to be a "proper" Orc. The den mother has a different view, but she can't break away from Gruumsh while the divine conflict of the Orcish pantheon continues, as it would leave Gruumsh outnumbered and he'd be overwhelmed.
Or we could just treat Volo's Guide like it's not the definitive guide to how all orcs everywhere act.
I don't disagree, but you'd need a new setting for that. As I explained, it would need to be a setting where either the gods are distant and passive, or a setting where the Orcs worship different gods or none of the gods. That's why Eberron has different Orcs -- Gruumsh doesn't interact in any meaningful way with the Orcish tribes, any more than the Elven gods interact directly with them. And it's also why the Drow are a part of normal society, so much so that they have their own Dragonmarked house -- Lolth doesn't have influence over their lives, and as such, they are not restricted by her edicts.
Gruumsh and Lolth don't exist in the Eberron setting.
And all we need to change in the Forgotten Realms is to have Gruumsh go from being god of the orcs to being a god who is worshiped primarily by orcs, but not the only god orcs worship. Just stop requiring non-human races to worship a single diety or pantheon and instead let them be diverse in their deity choices.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I don't understand why we need to rewrite the lore of these fantasy races from scratch to accommodate for "individuals can sometimes rebel against their society." I don't think anyone who is pointing out the cultural uniformity of some races is even arguing against the fact that yes, you can play a lawful good paladin orc.. But i don't think we need to completely rebuild the entire lore of Orcs so that they loose their uniqueness. Like other "demi-humans" we don't need t change their core for the DMs and homebrews to do what they want. Heck, D&D has even made characters that break their own culture and stigma; ever heard of Jarlaxle?
Orcs are not restricted to worshiping orc gods. Just like how if you (like me) were raised Catholic, you cannot believe in another religion. But the orcs of Catholicism don't need to be changed for me as an individual to stop following them and follow a new religion. The argument about how religion and culture should be more refined since these have existed longer than real-world examples is a bit silly. The Gods of DnD have way more of an impact on the average person than a simply IRL religion. If you are an orc and you do not follow the tenets of Gruumsh, your not metaphysically not going to be going to orc heaven. You are literally not going to be going to orc heaven. depending on what you did, Gruumsh might even send devout followers to "teach you a lesson." Those followers will have heard directly from the God what he wants them to do. So yes there is free will in D&D but at the same time, the higher powers have much more influence on making sure you are doing what they want.
I just don't see how in a fantasy setting we have to have 12 different humanoid beings but they are basically supposed to be purely cosmetic when it comes to how they influence the world.
I just don't see how in a fantasy setting we have to have 12 different humanoid beings but they are basically supposed to be purely cosmetic when it comes to how they influence the world.
We don't. We just need to have writers be willing to give us a world that isn't 11 beings that are one-dimensional stereotypes, and humans.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I just don't see how in a fantasy setting we have to have 12 different humanoid beings but they are basically supposed to be purely cosmetic when it comes to how they influence the world.
We don't. We just need to have writers be willing to give us a world that isn't 11 beings that are one-dimensional stereotypes, and humans.
But they aren't? They just don't act 100% like humans. Which is apparently what you want you want 12 different humans
Orcs are savage barbarian monsters. Sometimes they have heroic qualities. Dark elves are sinister murderous schemers who serve their evil goddess. No amount of absurd race baiting will change these facts for me. I find it deeply offensive that guilt wrought white people and youths desperate to find reasons to be outraged are somehow attributing real world problems into children's fantasy tropes. There's a valid argument to be had about the *****folk in Ravenloft, but don't pretend that cartoonish monsters inspired from hundred year old popular fiction and even older mythology and folklore is at all prejudicial.
Wizards of the Coast did an excellent job in 5th edition of diversifying the landscape of personalities in D&D. There isn't just artwork of ethnically diverse heroes, it even appears to take culture into account. The black fighter in the Player's Handbook stands out in my mind pretty strongly. Similarly, adventures have done well; Tomb of Annihilation presents the people of Chult as sympathetic and heroic, instead of going into old pulp tropes where they're backwards and savage. That would be insensitive and racist.
Orcs and drow aren't that, and hey: if you have a world where orcs and drow have a different backstory and they're not considered monsters, that's fine too. There's even published worlds like that. I have no problem with people twisting the popular lore for their personal reasons, even if they are politically motivated.
I just don't see how in a fantasy setting we have to have 12 different humanoid beings but they are basically supposed to be purely cosmetic when it comes to how they influence the world.
We don't. We just need to have writers be willing to give us a world that isn't 11 beings that are one-dimensional stereotypes, and humans.
But they aren't? They just don't act 100% like humans. Which is apparently what you want you want 12 different humans
You do realize that there are rather a lot more than 12 different distinct human cultures on this planet Earth, right? By a factor of at least 10 (and quite likely by a factor of 100 or more)?
If this was actually meant for me: My point
You Head
Why do the 12 different playable races all need to be 100% identical? That was my point - making it so all races are 100% no standardized culture, no standardized structure, no standardized norms takes away uniqueness of those beings and makes them "Humans with pointy ears" or "Humans with tusks" or "humans that live in the see" - and that was my point.
Orcs are savage barbarian monsters. Sometimes they have heroic qualities. Dark elves are sinister murderous schemers who serve their evil goddess. No amount of absurd race baiting will change these facts for me. I find it deeply offensive that guilt wrought white people and youths desperate to find reasons to be outraged are somehow attributing real world problems into children's fantasy tropes. There's a valid argument to be had about the *****folk in Ravenloft, but don't pretend that cartoonish monsters inspired from hundred year old popular fiction and even older mythology and folklore is at all prejudicial.
And many more people are deeply offended by trying to play a game and finding that the description of most of the non-human races sounds like something that a 19th Century European wrote about the people of somewhere that wasn't Europe. That ship has not only already sailed, it's already made port on the other side of the ocean. Continuing to complain about it isn't going to cause Wizards to reverse their decision.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I don’t think whole cultures should be deliberately devoted to the pursuit of evil. I see orcs as much more like the Visigoths in Roman times than creatures whose sole reason for existence is hurting other people. As for dark elves...their society could be a fascinating study in gender politics, but I think playing drow all too often leads to misogynistic depictions of dark-skinned Lloth-worshipping (Lloth and Lilith even sound similar) Femme Fatales whose sole motivation is to destroy all that is “good” and “light” and “pure” (and yes, usually but not always male).
But I’m not that good with abstract arguments, so this will probably be my last comment on this issue.
I don’t think whole cultures should be deliberately devoted to the pursuit of evil. I see orcs as much more like the Visigoths in Roman times than creatures whose sole reason for existence is hurting other people. As for dark elves...their society could be a fascinating study in gender politics, but I think playing drow all too often leads to misogynistic depictions of dark-skinned Lloth-worshipping (Lloth and Lilith even sound similar) Femme Fatales whose sole motivation is to destroy all that is “good” and “light” and “pure” (and yes, usually but not always male).
But I’m not that good with abstract arguments, so this will probably be my last comment on this issue.
That's fine and you can do both of those things - but asking that the entire society change aka Gruumsh's, an Evil god, spawn to not be evil as a society means rewriting them entirely. There is nothing wrong with creating a settlement of Orcs that aren't like Gruumsh, but in D&d where Gods have a large hand in their creations and have a large impact on the world, there is going to be actual consequences for those orcs who turned on Gruumsh. Like I mentioned with the Drow, there is a whole off-shoot where a group basically go completely against their natural society. They are hated by the Drow society and most likely not liked by Lolth either, but again Lolth in her nature is Evil. Why would she not ask her followers and children to be Evil too?
If you don't want this heavily aligned nature of beings - you need to remove D&D cosmology from your world. Basically look at Ravinca for that. The gods don't exists on that world and therefore many of those inherently Evil cultures have very different set ups.
I don’t think whole cultures should be deliberately devoted to the pursuit of evil. I see orcs as much more like the Visigoths in Roman times than creatures whose sole reason for existence is hurting other people. As for dark elves...their society could be a fascinating study in gender politics, but I think playing drow all too often leads to misogynistic depictions of dark-skinned Lloth-worshipping (Lloth and Lilith even sound similar) Femme Fatales whose sole motivation is to destroy all that is “good” and “light” and “pure” (and yes, usually but not always male).
But I’m not that good with abstract arguments, so this will probably be my last comment on this issue.
That's fine and you can do both of those things - but asking that the entire society change aka Gruumsh's, an Evil god, spawn to not be evil as a society means rewriting them entirely. There is nothing wrong with creating a settlement of Orcs that aren't like Gruumsh, but in D&d where Gods have a large hand in their creations and have a large impact on the world, there is going to be actual consequences for those orcs who turned on Gruumsh. Like I mentioned with the Drow, there is a whole off-shoot where a group basically go completely against their natural society. They are hated by the Drow society and most likely not liked by Lolth either, but again Lolth in her nature is Evil. Why would she not ask her followers and children to be Evil too?
If you don't want this heavily aligned nature of beings - you need to remove D&D cosmology from your world. Basically look at Ravinca for that. The gods don't exists on that world and therefore many of those inherently Evil cultures have very different set ups.
Interesting thing about Gruumsh being evil. Acccording to a Forgotten Realms wiki, and this is sourced as coming from Dragon Magazine #62 from 1982 and the Monster Mythology book from 1992
Gruumsh's enmity with the other gods started with a lottery. The gods of the dwarves, elves, gnomes, halflings, humans, and orcs met to draw lots to determine which parts of the world were to be inhabited by their respective worshipers. The non-orcish gods rigged the lot. Elves got the forests, dwarves the mountains, humans the right to live wherever they wanted, and so on, but there was no lot prepared for the orcs. Gruumsh was mocked and insulted by the others for this and was enraged over the others cheating the orcs into destitution as part of a joke. He lifted his spear to strike caves and holes into world and claimed these for his worshipers and vowed that they will grow stronger there to ultimately kill every one of the cheaters and take everything from them
Seems like Gruumsh, even in his fundamental original concept, wasn't so much "evil" as much as he was utterly pissed off at being cheated by all the other gods. Specifically on behalf of his people who were given no where in the world to be their proper "homeland" and actively having to fight and take everything they could have rather than being merely blessed and handed everything like the "good" races were.
Erase the silliness imposed by the broken and wonky alignment system and actually look at the core motivations-- there is nothing fundamentally stopping Orcs from being good and if it weren't for the actions of the creator gods of the "good" races, which were taken maliciously and mockingly, they wouldn't be "evil" at all.
I don’t think whole cultures should be deliberately devoted to the pursuit of evil. I see orcs as much more like the Visigoths in Roman times than creatures whose sole reason for existence is hurting other people. As for dark elves...their society could be a fascinating study in gender politics, but I think playing drow all too often leads to misogynistic depictions of dark-skinned Lloth-worshipping (Lloth and Lilith even sound similar) Femme Fatales whose sole motivation is to destroy all that is “good” and “light” and “pure” (and yes, usually but not always male).
But I’m not that good with abstract arguments, so this will probably be my last comment on this issue.
That's fine and you can do both of those things - but asking that the entire society change aka Gruumsh's, an Evil god, spawn to not be evil as a society means rewriting them entirely. There is nothing wrong with creating a settlement of Orcs that aren't like Gruumsh, but in D&d where Gods have a large hand in their creations and have a large impact on the world, there is going to be actual consequences for those orcs who turned on Gruumsh. Like I mentioned with the Drow, there is a whole off-shoot where a group basically go completely against their natural society. They are hated by the Drow society and most likely not liked by Lolth either, but again Lolth in her nature is Evil. Why would she not ask her followers and children to be Evil too?
If you don't want this heavily aligned nature of beings - you need to remove D&D cosmology from your world. Basically look at Ravinca for that. The gods don't exists on that world and therefore many of those inherently Evil cultures have very different set ups.
But why should those evil orcs be the base? In 2 of the 5e worlds there are good/neutral orcs (Eberrron and Exandria). This is more than the official 5e worlds where orcs are evil (Forgotten Realms). It's already the default in the majority of the 5e settings where orcs exist, why shouldn't it be the default in all of 5e? In those 2 worlds, there are no shortages of villains, even with people drow and people orcs.
It shouldn't be the default in Volo's or the Monster Manual for Orcs to be evil. It should have the default be as open as possible, with different worlds interpreting them in different ways.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
We should definitely appreciate the fact that elven culture at its roots is very different from human culture, but we shouldn’t assume that elves have a monolithic “racial personality” either. Some elven cultures, such as the grugach (wild elves) of Greyhawk, may seem alien to human eyes; others, such as the flamenco elves of Glantri, have evolved similar to the Spanish Hidalgo culture of the 18th and early 19th centuries. There’s nothing wrong with celebrating elven diversity.
Also, people of any species can always rebel against the culture they were born into.
Totally
In the D&D pantheon, each god created their particular race with a particular view in mind.
Orcs were created to be strong in combat.
Elves were created to be agile.
This seems to imply a specific set of attribute modifiers compared to humans (if we assume humans were created to be generalists).
Or we could just treat Volo's Guide like it's not the definitive guide to how all orcs everywhere act.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I don't disagree, but you'd need a new setting for that. As I explained, it would need to be a setting where either the gods are distant and passive, or a setting where the Orcs worship different gods or none of the gods. That's why Eberron has different Orcs -- Gruumsh doesn't interact in any meaningful way with the Orcish tribes, any more than the Elven gods interact directly with them. And it's also why the Drow are a part of normal society, so much so that they have their own Dragonmarked house -- Lolth doesn't have influence over their lives, and as such, they are not restricted by her edicts.
I like how Eberron does things. Very 21st century.
Gruumsh and Lolth don't exist in the Eberron setting.
And all we need to change in the Forgotten Realms is to have Gruumsh go from being god of the orcs to being a god who is worshiped primarily by orcs, but not the only god orcs worship. Just stop requiring non-human races to worship a single diety or pantheon and instead let them be diverse in their deity choices.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
@6thLyranGuard so maybe not restrict orcs to worshipping just orcish gods?
Precisely. It might be to D&D's benefit to move away from the idea of racial gods altogether.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I don't understand why we need to rewrite the lore of these fantasy races from scratch to accommodate for "individuals can sometimes rebel against their society." I don't think anyone who is pointing out the cultural uniformity of some races is even arguing against the fact that yes, you can play a lawful good paladin orc.. But i don't think we need to completely rebuild the entire lore of Orcs so that they loose their uniqueness. Like other "demi-humans" we don't need t change their core for the DMs and homebrews to do what they want. Heck, D&D has even made characters that break their own culture and stigma; ever heard of Jarlaxle?
Orcs are not restricted to worshiping orc gods. Just like how if you (like me) were raised Catholic, you cannot believe in another religion. But the orcs of Catholicism don't need to be changed for me as an individual to stop following them and follow a new religion. The argument about how religion and culture should be more refined since these have existed longer than real-world examples is a bit silly. The Gods of DnD have way more of an impact on the average person than a simply IRL religion. If you are an orc and you do not follow the tenets of Gruumsh, your not metaphysically not going to be going to orc heaven. You are literally not going to be going to orc heaven. depending on what you did, Gruumsh might even send devout followers to "teach you a lesson." Those followers will have heard directly from the God what he wants them to do. So yes there is free will in D&D but at the same time, the higher powers have much more influence on making sure you are doing what they want.
I just don't see how in a fantasy setting we have to have 12 different humanoid beings but they are basically supposed to be purely cosmetic when it comes to how they influence the world.
We don't. We just need to have writers be willing to give us a world that isn't 11 beings that are one-dimensional stereotypes, and humans.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
But they aren't? They just don't act 100% like humans. Which is apparently what you want you want 12 different humans
Orcs are savage barbarian monsters. Sometimes they have heroic qualities. Dark elves are sinister murderous schemers who serve their evil goddess. No amount of absurd race baiting will change these facts for me. I find it deeply offensive that guilt wrought white people and youths desperate to find reasons to be outraged are somehow attributing real world problems into children's fantasy tropes. There's a valid argument to be had about the *****folk in Ravenloft, but don't pretend that cartoonish monsters inspired from hundred year old popular fiction and even older mythology and folklore is at all prejudicial.
Wizards of the Coast did an excellent job in 5th edition of diversifying the landscape of personalities in D&D. There isn't just artwork of ethnically diverse heroes, it even appears to take culture into account. The black fighter in the Player's Handbook stands out in my mind pretty strongly. Similarly, adventures have done well; Tomb of Annihilation presents the people of Chult as sympathetic and heroic, instead of going into old pulp tropes where they're backwards and savage. That would be insensitive and racist.
Orcs and drow aren't that, and hey: if you have a world where orcs and drow have a different backstory and they're not considered monsters, that's fine too. There's even published worlds like that. I have no problem with people twisting the popular lore for their personal reasons, even if they are politically motivated.
If this was actually meant for me: My point
You Head
Why do the 12 different playable races all need to be 100% identical? That was my point - making it so all races are 100% no standardized culture, no standardized structure, no standardized norms takes away uniqueness of those beings and makes them "Humans with pointy ears" or "Humans with tusks" or "humans that live in the see" - and that was my point.
And many more people are deeply offended by trying to play a game and finding that the description of most of the non-human races sounds like something that a 19th Century European wrote about the people of somewhere that wasn't Europe. That ship has not only already sailed, it's already made port on the other side of the ocean. Continuing to complain about it isn't going to cause Wizards to reverse their decision.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I don’t think whole cultures should be deliberately devoted to the pursuit of evil. I see orcs as much more like the Visigoths in Roman times than creatures whose sole reason for existence is hurting other people. As for dark elves...their society could be a fascinating study in gender politics, but I think playing drow all too often leads to misogynistic depictions of dark-skinned Lloth-worshipping (Lloth and Lilith even sound similar) Femme Fatales whose sole motivation is to destroy all that is “good” and “light” and “pure” (and yes, usually but not always male).
But I’m not that good with abstract arguments, so this will probably be my last comment on this issue.
That's fine and you can do both of those things - but asking that the entire society change aka Gruumsh's, an Evil god, spawn to not be evil as a society means rewriting them entirely. There is nothing wrong with creating a settlement of Orcs that aren't like Gruumsh, but in D&d where Gods have a large hand in their creations and have a large impact on the world, there is going to be actual consequences for those orcs who turned on Gruumsh. Like I mentioned with the Drow, there is a whole off-shoot where a group basically go completely against their natural society. They are hated by the Drow society and most likely not liked by Lolth either, but again Lolth in her nature is Evil. Why would she not ask her followers and children to be Evil too?
If you don't want this heavily aligned nature of beings - you need to remove D&D cosmology from your world. Basically look at Ravinca for that. The gods don't exists on that world and therefore many of those inherently Evil cultures have very different set ups.
Interesting thing about Gruumsh being evil. Acccording to a Forgotten Realms wiki, and this is sourced as coming from Dragon Magazine #62 from 1982 and the Monster Mythology book from 1992
Gruumsh's enmity with the other gods started with a lottery. The gods of the dwarves, elves, gnomes, halflings, humans, and orcs met to draw lots to determine which parts of the world were to be inhabited by their respective worshipers. The non-orcish gods rigged the lot. Elves got the forests, dwarves the mountains, humans the right to live wherever they wanted, and so on, but there was no lot prepared for the orcs. Gruumsh was mocked and insulted by the others for this and was enraged over the others cheating the orcs into destitution as part of a joke. He lifted his spear to strike caves and holes into world and claimed these for his worshipers and vowed that they will grow stronger there to ultimately kill every one of the cheaters and take everything from them
Seems like Gruumsh, even in his fundamental original concept, wasn't so much "evil" as much as he was utterly pissed off at being cheated by all the other gods. Specifically on behalf of his people who were given no where in the world to be their proper "homeland" and actively having to fight and take everything they could have rather than being merely blessed and handed everything like the "good" races were.
Erase the silliness imposed by the broken and wonky alignment system and actually look at the core motivations-- there is nothing fundamentally stopping Orcs from being good and if it weren't for the actions of the creator gods of the "good" races, which were taken maliciously and mockingly, they wouldn't be "evil" at all.
But why should those evil orcs be the base? In 2 of the 5e worlds there are good/neutral orcs (Eberrron and Exandria). This is more than the official 5e worlds where orcs are evil (Forgotten Realms). It's already the default in the majority of the 5e settings where orcs exist, why shouldn't it be the default in all of 5e? In those 2 worlds, there are no shortages of villains, even with people drow and people orcs.
It shouldn't be the default in Volo's or the Monster Manual for Orcs to be evil. It should have the default be as open as possible, with different worlds interpreting them in different ways.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms