Ebberon is a steampunk setting for DnD. the dragons of all colours can be any alignment, and the original dragons gave a gift to the races, called dragonmarks. They are basically magical tattoos that you are either born with or develop.
Ok, that’s cool! Thanks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
I’d love to hear EVERYONE’S story about their encounters or what they love about dragons or dragon lore.
Yeah, just not in this specific thread. This thread has seen enough already, even when it remains on topic.
I don’t mean to drive us off topic, anything you guys would like to share like the lore and such, you can message me about and I’ll listen and enjoy. About dragons, what are the color ranges? Also size?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
True, true. So, are orcs and drow racist or not? I say not. The changes being implemented around them, as well as the removal of the word race, is based entirely on the supposition and theory that they are.
Are you asking if they are in-game racist or racist as a concept.
in-game, they are most certainly racist. Drow have slaves that were not born nor volunteered to be slaves. These slaves are always of a different genetic background. I'd call that racist.
Orcs in-game are hmmm.
I want my Orcs to be Larry Correia Orcs. Spoiler, read his Monster Hunter books if you want to know.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
True, true. So, are orcs and drow racist or not? I say not. The changes being implemented around them, as well as the removal of the word race, is based entirely on the supposition and theory that they are.
Are you asking if they are in-game racist or racist as a concept.
in-game, they are most certainly racist. Drow have slaves that were not born nor volunteered to be slaves. These slaves are always of a different genetic background. I'd call that racist.
Orcs in-game are hmmm.
I want my Orcs to be Larry Correia Orcs. Spoiler, read his Monster Hunter books if you want to know.
They certainly can be racist in-universe. In fact, depending on the DM, they can be the most racist things you'll ever meet. As a concept I don't believe they are racist caricatures of real life people's or cultures, especially since there are clear-cut examples in-lore of good members of drow and orcs, from Drizzt Do'Urdan the drow (also one of the single most popular characters in d&d) and Oberoun Many-Arrows, who established a civilized kingdom of mountain orcs.
Or we as DM's can pull a Matt Mercer and create an entirely new world with new cultures but keep the races and make a new society that doesn't exist in the Forgotten Realms because our game isn't in them.
For my part, I am trying to separate 'race' from 'culture.' There is considerable overlap, particularly since major cultures tend to have racial majorities and minorities, however there is a difference.
A culture having a general tendency in alignment is fine, even if race based factions within that culture have their own general tendencies.
This also covers (and, to me, better explains) the exceptions.
This is a completely fair analysis. I disagree fundamentally with the very idea that drow and orcs are representatives of real life equivalent cultures, tribes or people so I don't see them as racist, but in-game they make for excellent villains, complex stories of betrayal and redemption, meeting of cultures completely separate and ripe with misunderstandings, theological clashes, war of survival, a slave uprising, political intrigue or whatever else you or your DM can dream up.
They were a great vanilla villain (orcs) my first time DMing but I also used them in another campaign (drow) to weave a complicated story of a new leader of the drow trying to reform them and the players were dealing with political intrigue, mysteries and the conflict of old vs new and whether old grudges can be overcome.
But of course, every story is better with a dragon.
Most D&D races are expected to be overtly racist towards other D&D races (outside of large cities) as stated in the Player's Handbook section on uncommon D&D races.
The common folk aren’t accustomed to seeing members of these races, and they react accordingly.
Certainly the dwarves have written into their description:
... a burning hatred of goblins and orcs — these common threads unite all dwarves.
Obviously, it's up to your DM if their world is standard or unusual in this regard. And it's up to you as a player if you want to play to or against type. There are constant reminders in all of the core books that it's your world to do with as you will. e.g. the Monster Manual has this to say about monster D&D races:
Naturally, you can do with these monsters what you will. Nothing we say here is intended to curtail your creativity. If the minotaurs in your world are shipbuilders and pirates, who are we to argue with you? It’s your world, after all.
This conversation can go to a different server guys, let everyone else actually use this one for its purpose. This conversation is titled Races and Species (pertaining to D&D) not Argument of What’s Morally Right/Wrong. Either take a chill pill people or take it to Private Messages. Please consider what this argument is leading to.
I am not saying you guys aren’t making strong points in this, but think about it, is this argument among a few of you hindering or bothering anyone else that isn’t even part of this.
I suggest that we all just choose another topic pertaining to Races and Species and talk about it like a friendly community. How about we try to dig into the topic of dragons? I haven’t seen a conversation here yet that’s about dragons. Or something else that someone’s is interested in.
True, true. So, are orcs and drow racist or not? I say not. The changes being implemented around them, as well as the removal of the word race, is based entirely on the supposition and theory that they are.
Also, dragons are awesome. Particularly copper dragons being whimsical tricksters like fox spirits.
Treating any given sentient race as universally any given alignment is problematic and feeds into racism generally. It is not 'needed' and not sure why some seem to feel it is needed. There will still be enemies that can be killed, for those who feel the need to kill things.
STOP BEATING THIS DEAD HORSE!!! Poor thing's long dead, do you really have to do this?
If u rlly want to kill something though... Kill rats till u get to lvl 20
Which particular dead horse are you referring to? Curious...
The one where most people in this thread have no problem with a general tendency in alignment connected to race, but other people can't tell the difference between that and declaring all members of a given race match that tendency alignment, no exceptions. Which... frankly, I'm not even sure why that's a topic of discussion. It should be obvious to everyone that these are not the same thing.
For my part, I am trying to separate 'race' from 'culture.' There is considerable overlap, particularly since major cultures tend to have racial majorities and minorities, however there is a difference.
A culture having a general tendency in alignment is fine, even if race based factions within that culture have their own general tendencies.
This also covers (and, to me, better explains) the exceptions.
And I can only argue on behalf of myself, regardless of any given rhetoric I may use.
Why keep beating this dead horse of a thread though? It's like people keep casting true resurrection on this thread by posting outrageous things. It's gone on long enough and wasted enough of our time, and let's be real, it has not resolved anything and never will.
At this time I now motion for this thread to be locked.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
This entire topic is about projecting real life issues onto a game media where there is not an issue and altering the game media in virtue signalling symbolic ways to make cultural Marxist feel powerful and I can’t believe they are gunning for role playing games.
Then again that is how such petty bullies work, isn’t it. Low hanging fruit etc.
You mean low hanging fruits like calling out people with unreflected generalizations and catch phrases like virtue signalling and cultural Marxism?
This entire topic is about projecting real life issues onto a game media where there is not an issue and altering the game media in virtue signalling symbolic ways to make cultural Marxist feel powerful and I can’t believe they are gunning for role playing games.
Then again that is how such petty bullies work, isn’t it. Low hanging fruit etc.
You mean low hanging fruits like calling out people with unreflected generalizations and catch phrases like virtue signalling and cultural Marxism?
26+ pages of "unreflected generalizations" on a non-issue is quite enough thanks.
D&D has been uniting people for 40+ years why is there such a desire to tear into it now, creating problems where there are none just to be seen to conjure a solution out of the same thin air as they created the "problem".
The word "race" has been used correctly in the D&D context since it began, it does not need to be changed to mirror the manufactured discord in real life over the real world context of the word "race" nor does its use in the D&D context constitute a racist crime in the real world.
This entire topic is about projecting real life issues onto a game media where there is not an issue and altering the game media in virtue signalling symbolic ways to make cultural Marxist feel powerful and I can’t believe they are gunning for role playing games.
Then again that is how such petty bullies work, isn’t it. Low hanging fruit etc.
You mean low hanging fruits like calling out people with unreflected generalizations and catch phrases like virtue signalling and cultural Marxism?
26+ pages of "unreflected generalizations" on a non-issue is quite enough thanks.
D&D has been uniting people for 40+ years why is there such a desire to tear into it now, creating problems where there are none just to be seen to conjure a solution out of the same thin air as they created the "problem".
The word "race" has been used correctly in the D&D context since it began, it does not need to be changed to mirror the manufactured discord in real life over the real world context of the word "race" nor does its use in the D&D context constitute a racist crime in the real world.
You figure racial unrest, particularly in the US, is just all made up? Umm.....
And NO ONE has called anything in game 'criminal.' You are talking about 'manufactured discord' and make comments like that? (Not to mention in your prior post implying that anyone who has issues over racism is somehow 'Marxist')
Cultural Marxism apparently is a synonym for political correctness. Why political correctness is Marxism, I have no idea.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
It is a difficult topic for people to sort out, with no easy answers. That, arguably, makes it more important to continue dialogue rather than to just throw our hands up and declare the topic dead.
There are two possible ways the topic could be dead:
1) Disagreements are too wide for continued dialogue to be productive.
2) A consensus and a definitive answer has been reached.
I am not certain that either of those are actually the case. You seem to be making the case for (1).
I'd propose a third reason that this thread should be locked: there is no consistent debate being made on this thread any longer, if there ever was. On the one hand, the WotC move appears by some to be a sanction against players for using race in their private games, with rants about censorship and "cultural Marxism", which is absurd. In reality, the "issue" at hand is a movement from WotC to slightly change a single mechanic in the core rules that can be ignored by anybody to appeal to a larger base of players. But from people conducting these two orthogonal arguments, there can't really be productive discussion.
26+ pages of "unreflected generalizations" on a non-issue is quite enough thanks.
D&D has been uniting people for 40+ years why is there such a desire to tear into it now, creating problems where there are none just to be seen to conjure a solution out of the same thin air as they created the "problem".
The word "race" has been used correctly in the D&D context since it began, it does not need to be changed to mirror the manufactured discord in real life over the real world context of the word "race" nor does its use in the D&D context constitute a racist crime in the real world.
Uniting people for 40 years? I could count on zero hands the number of women I've known who were even remotely interested in D&D until WotC and the D&D community made active efforts to include women in design decisions and content. As I've said three or four times on this and other threads, that you can't see an issue or that it isn't an issue to you isn't evidence that it doesn't exist. And nobody... literally nobody is trying to sanction you, WotC, or any D&D player for using the word race. We just think it would be an affirmative step to be inclusive and attract more players who don't want the core rules to be baked with unfortunate tropes. Use race however you want in your game. Again, nobody cares.
And your comment about manufactured discord is so asinine as to warrant no response. I'll link you to the evidence I've provided that racial prejudice is a big deal.
But you know something? You're right. It's a non-issue. WotC will be changing the way race is treated moving forward, and you can choose to ignore it or whinge some more.
This entire topic is about projecting real life issues onto a game media where there is not an issue and altering the game media in virtue signalling symbolic ways to make cultural Marxist feel powerful and I can’t believe they are gunning for role playing games.
Then again that is how such petty bullies work, isn’t it. Low hanging fruit etc.
You mean low hanging fruits like calling out people with unreflected generalizations and catch phrases like virtue signalling and cultural Marxism?
26+ pages of "unreflected generalizations" on a non-issue is quite enough thanks.
D&D has been uniting people for 40+ years why is there such a desire to tear into it now, creating problems where there are none just to be seen to conjure a solution out of the same thin air as they created the "problem".
The word "race" has been used correctly in the D&D context since it began, it does not need to be changed to mirror the manufactured discord in real life over the real world context of the word "race" nor does its use in the D&D context constitute a racist crime in the real world.
You figure racial unrest, particularly in the US, is just all made up? Umm.....
And NO ONE has called anything in game 'criminal.' You are talking about 'manufactured discord' and make comments like that? (Not to mention in your prior post implying that anyone who has issues over racism is somehow 'Marxist')
Cultural Marxism apparently is a synonym for political correctness. Why political correctness is Marxism, I have no idea.
This entire topic is about projecting real life issues onto a game media where there is not an issue and altering the game media in virtue signalling symbolic ways to make cultural Marxist feel powerful and I can’t believe they are gunning for role playing games.
Then again that is how such petty bullies work, isn’t it. Low hanging fruit etc.
You mean low hanging fruits like calling out people with unreflected generalizations and catch phrases like virtue signalling and cultural Marxism?
26+ pages of "unreflected generalizations" on a non-issue is quite enough thanks.
D&D has been uniting people for 40+ years why is there such a desire to tear into it now, creating problems where there are none just to be seen to conjure a solution out of the same thin air as they created the "problem".
The word "race" has been used correctly in the D&D context since it began, it does not need to be changed to mirror the manufactured discord in real life over the real world context of the word "race" nor does its use in the D&D context constitute a racist crime in the real world.
You figure racial unrest, particularly in the US, is just all made up? Umm.....
And NO ONE has called anything in game 'criminal.' You are talking about 'manufactured discord' and make comments like that? (Not to mention in your prior post implying that anyone who has issues over racism is somehow 'Marxist')
Cultural Marxism apparently is a synonym for political correctness. Why political correctness is Marxism, I have no idea.
Yep, it is a ~100 year old far-right conspiracy theory. Obviously wrong, as no Marxists have influenced anything in the 'western world' and agressive capitalism more or less 'won'.
Ok, that’s cool! Thanks.
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
I don’t mean to drive us off topic, anything you guys would like to share like the lore and such, you can message me about and I’ll listen and enjoy.
About dragons, what are the color ranges? Also size?
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
Then create a new thread.
Are you asking if they are in-game racist or racist as a concept.
in-game, they are most certainly racist. Drow have slaves that were not born nor volunteered to be slaves. These slaves are always of a different genetic background. I'd call that racist.
Orcs in-game are hmmm.
I want my Orcs to be Larry Correia Orcs. Spoiler, read his Monster Hunter books if you want to know.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
They certainly can be racist in-universe. In fact, depending on the DM, they can be the most racist things you'll ever meet. As a concept I don't believe they are racist caricatures of real life people's or cultures, especially since there are clear-cut examples in-lore of good members of drow and orcs, from Drizzt Do'Urdan the drow (also one of the single most popular characters in d&d) and Oberoun Many-Arrows, who established a civilized kingdom of mountain orcs.
Or we as DM's can pull a Matt Mercer and create an entirely new world with new cultures but keep the races and make a new society that doesn't exist in the Forgotten Realms because our game isn't in them.
This is a completely fair analysis. I disagree fundamentally with the very idea that drow and orcs are representatives of real life equivalent cultures, tribes or people so I don't see them as racist, but in-game they make for excellent villains, complex stories of betrayal and redemption, meeting of cultures completely separate and ripe with misunderstandings, theological clashes, war of survival, a slave uprising, political intrigue or whatever else you or your DM can dream up.
They were a great vanilla villain (orcs) my first time DMing but I also used them in another campaign (drow) to weave a complicated story of a new leader of the drow trying to reform them and the players were dealing with political intrigue, mysteries and the conflict of old vs new and whether old grudges can be overcome.
But of course, every story is better with a dragon.
Most D&D races are expected to be overtly racist towards other D&D races (outside of large cities) as stated in the Player's Handbook section on uncommon D&D races.
Certainly the dwarves have written into their description:
Obviously, it's up to your DM if their world is standard or unusual in this regard. And it's up to you as a player if you want to play to or against type. There are constant reminders in all of the core books that it's your world to do with as you will. e.g. the Monster Manual has this to say about monster D&D races:
These caveats have existed in every edition.
Why keep beating this dead horse of a thread though? It's like people keep casting true resurrection on this thread by posting outrageous things. It's gone on long enough and wasted enough of our time, and let's be real, it has not resolved anything and never will.
At this time I now motion for this thread to be locked.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
People will hate on other people for good reasons, bad reasons, and no reason.
The ones that have bad reasons or no reasons are racist. Wait we can't use that word. Clanist? Genetisist? Classist? Specieist?
What would you call them? If it was a mixed bag of species and races and another group hated on them, what would they be?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
You mean low hanging fruits like calling out people with unreflected generalizations and catch phrases like virtue signalling and cultural Marxism?
Lawyers.
Ba-dum-tsh.
26+ pages of "unreflected generalizations" on a non-issue is quite enough thanks.
D&D has been uniting people for 40+ years why is there such a desire to tear into it now, creating problems where there are none just to be seen to conjure a solution out of the same thin air as they created the "problem".
The word "race" has been used correctly in the D&D context since it began, it does not need to be changed to mirror the manufactured discord in real life over the real world context of the word "race" nor does its use in the D&D context constitute a racist crime in the real world.
Cultural Marxism apparently is a synonym for political correctness. Why political correctness is Marxism, I have no idea.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
I'd propose a third reason that this thread should be locked: there is no consistent debate being made on this thread any longer, if there ever was. On the one hand, the WotC move appears by some to be a sanction against players for using race in their private games, with rants about censorship and "cultural Marxism", which is absurd. In reality, the "issue" at hand is a movement from WotC to slightly change a single mechanic in the core rules that can be ignored by anybody to appeal to a larger base of players. But from people conducting these two orthogonal arguments, there can't really be productive discussion.
Uniting people for 40 years? I could count on zero hands the number of women I've known who were even remotely interested in D&D until WotC and the D&D community made active efforts to include women in design decisions and content. As I've said three or four times on this and other threads, that you can't see an issue or that it isn't an issue to you isn't evidence that it doesn't exist. And nobody... literally nobody is trying to sanction you, WotC, or any D&D player for using the word race. We just think it would be an affirmative step to be inclusive and attract more players who don't want the core rules to be baked with unfortunate tropes. Use race however you want in your game. Again, nobody cares.
And your comment about manufactured discord is so asinine as to warrant no response. I'll link you to the evidence I've provided that racial prejudice is a big deal.
But you know something? You're right. It's a non-issue. WotC will be changing the way race is treated moving forward, and you can choose to ignore it or whinge some more.
Weird.
Yep, it is a ~100 year old far-right conspiracy theory. Obviously wrong, as no Marxists have influenced anything in the 'western world' and agressive capitalism more or less 'won'.
This thread has devolved past the point of any meaningful or valid discussion relating to D&D. As such, it will now be locked.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here