Because typically racial bonuses force you into racial stereotypes. Now, you might want to play a stereotypical X, many players actually do, but it should be a choice, not something the game forces on you.
Use what's been there for ages. Orcs are stronger than halflings, hence Orcs have higher starting strength modifiers. Orcs look stronger than halflings. Orcs are bigger than halflings - hell, baby orcs are bigger than halflings. If you want to min/max your Barbarian, you're starting stats are better served by playing an Orc rather than a halfling. From ages 6 to 60, show any of the orcs on the 1st 3 pages of a google image alongside any halfling from the 1st 3 pages of a google image search. Tell that person to "pick the barbarian". They'll choose the orc. Is this how it should be? That's for you to decide, but, in this case, it is what it is.
Option 2:
Leave strength to how you play, not what you play. Your halfling is feral. He grew up among the rotted vines of the Darkwood. He fought day in and day out against treants trying to confine him to the earth. From toddler to adult, he's struggled (literally) against demonic vines of darkness and filth. This halfling is strong. He's a barbarian! The orc meanwhile spent time in dark dungeons and forgotten libraries. Rarely taking time to eat, it was a tome, spectacles, and a candle. That's all he needed. This orc is small in stature - as perhaps his parents, though full blooded orcs, followed the same path. This orc is intellectual. You've chosen to forego strength and instead have an orc with an 18 Int. You're strength is a meager 9. When you have Fireball and your wits, why do you need more?
Choose an option. Move on. Sleep Well. It's not that fuc%ing complicated.
Because typically racial bonuses force you into racial stereotypes. Now, you might want to play a stereotypical X, many players actually do, but it should be a choice, not something the game forces on you.
Because typically racial bonuses force you into racial stereotypes. Now, you might want to play a stereotypical X, many players actually do, but it should be a choice, not something the game forces on you.
Because typically racial bonuses force you into racial stereotypes. Now, you might want to play a stereotypical X, many players actually do, but it should be a choice, not something the game forces on you.
The game has never forced it on you.
If you don't want to play a character everyone is going to despise because that old table in the AD&D book says almost all races have hatred or antipathy toward you, don't play a half-orc.
I mean really, it is super-simple to avoid playing a racial stereotype. Just play a human. It's what people really want anyway -- a human with stat bonuses the character has no real reason to have, but the player wants them anyway. Oh and maybe a cool exotic look to make them feel "special."
Because trying to do the work of actually making your character special, unique, or memorable in RP is way too much work. Just be a cutey-pie blue tiefling with horns who everyone loves and nobody at all fears due to her part-fiend nature. Being feared is no fun, after all. And tieflings make great spellcasters with all those racial abilities and stat bonuses. And that part's fun!
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I actually do this already. Since there is a "Manual" option for attributes I moved some points around in my players to not gimp them in their class because of their race choice. It will be nice to have the option better baked in the DnD builder. So the net change benefits more people without affecting existing players of the old ruleset.
In the end I think the math attributes hsould be able to be just shifted around while keeping and improving the other racial bonuses to make race choice still matter.
And to everyone saying you are just a human cosplaying... no, hell no... humans don't have darkvision!!
Because typically racial bonuses force you into racial stereotypes. Now, you might want to play a stereotypical X, many players actually do, but it should be a choice, not something the game forces on you.
It should be significant. Otherwise it’s irrelevant.
I'm fine with it being purely cosmetic, at least for PCs. Gender is purely cosmetic in modern D&D and that doesn't seem to prevent people playing both male and female characters, nor does it prevent it making a difference when RPing.
I mean, there'd still be other traits like Relentless Endurance/Savage Attacks/Darkvision. Races are more than their ability scores; if they were just their ability scores and nothing else, then that would make for a very good argument for not changing them, but that's 1) not the case, and 2) would make for a very, very, *very* boring game, IMO.
It should be significant. Otherwise it’s irrelevant.
I'm fine with it being purely cosmetic, at least for PCs. Gender is purely cosmetic in modern D&D and that doesn't seem to prevent people playing both male and female characters, nor does it prevent it making a difference when RPing.
Well, I’m not fine with it being purely cosmetic. It defeats the purpose of having the different options.
First and foremost, the different "races" in D&D, are not different races, but rather, they are different species.
Different species, have different attributes. What is wrong with, for example, Half Orcs being inherently stronger than most other species? Is it wrong to acknowledge that a fish is a better swimmer than a cat? Is it wrong to say a cheetah is inherently faster than a turtle? (you know, different species...)
If all of the species in D&D start out with the same base stats, then what is the point of having different species? Might as well have a single species that you can customize any way you want.
Is this really what the majority of players want, or is WOC just trying to appeal to a certain group, most of whom aren't even interested in D&D?
I totally see your points and absolutely agree - Half-Orcs are genetically stronger. There's no stigma or agenda here, that's just how the creatures are designed in the handbook. This coupled with the other Half-Orc abilities are what make them interesting or 'cool'.
That said, and to pick up on your point of 'Is this really what the majority of players want?', I'd offer my completely uninformed opinion and say probably no, BUT some people may want to play this way.
At the end of the day, it's just a different method of character creation. It's not a big deal. If people want to create characters through the standard PHB way that' we've had for ages, amazing! If people want to try something new for whatever reason they believe is important to them (e.g. something new to play with, diversity), fantastic!
It's up to each table to decide what matters most to them. Then continue on the main quest of having a good time with your mates.
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You know there is a precedent for this that can be studied as an object lesson.
City of Heroes is a superhero MMORPG. They have 5 "origins" -- as in superhero origin. The origins are Mutation, Science, Technology, Magic, and Natural. There is no game mechanic whatsoever behind these origins. They are purely cosmetic. Any orgin can go with any archetype (class), powerset (subclass), body type (male, female, huge male, huge female), or any physical appearance (human, alien, rabbit head, whatever you want). It does just what some people here are arguing for with "race" in D&D -- purely cosmetic.
It also is completely irrelevant and does not factor into either gameplay or missions, story arcs, or 99% of the RP that I have ever seen in the game (playing exclusively on RP oriented servers, if it's there, I'd have seen it). Nobody notices what your origin is. Nobody even knows (there's only one place to find it, which hardly anyone checks for other PCs). Nobody cares. it's irrelevant.
Which begs the question of -- why have origins? I think they have them because they thought that a superhero game should have them, but they didn't know what to do with them. They tried to make them kind of matter by saying you could only use certain enhancements for your powers by origin, but every origin has access to its own flavor of every single possible enhancement in the game (literally the only difference is the shape of the icon when you slot them in, and maybe the flavor text), and there are shops where you can exchange them... So literally the only difference your origin makes is what shop you buy your enhancements in. Later on when they made invention enhancements they gave up on tying them to origin and now nothing left in the game really uses origin at all.
Is that what people want for races? COH shows you how to do it. It also shows you how to make them not worth even having in the game. If the devs of COH had taken origin out of the game, I'm not sure anyone would have noticed, or cared. Do we want that with races?
I don't... I want them to matter.
But then, I wanted origin to matter in COH too.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
If anyone, as a DM, doesn't like this...it's entirely optional! Nobody forces you to do this. And I would appreciate not being told the way I, as a DM, should be running my table either.
You know there is a precedent for this that can be studied as an object lesson.
City of Heroes is a superhero MMORPG. They have 5 "origins" -- as in superhero origin. The origins are Mutation, Science, Technology, Magic, and Natural. There is no game mechanic whatsoever behind these origins. They are purely cosmetic.
Actually, it sounds like they don't do anything at all. The cosmetic options are what the costume creator lets you do, which again, has absolutely no effect on missions, etc, but certainly can affect RP.
@Mezzurah you're welcome! I'm glad I'm at least making some sense :P
@Heartofjuyomk2 BECAUSE IT IS!!!!!!! lol
I do completely get the arguments about how this does feel kinda forced into what most people deem the 'original/standard' way of character creation. But I also get the arguments about how one of the beautiful aspects of this game is its inclusive nature, so is this not a step in the right direction?
Again, another uninformed opinion here - I think the hot topic is that the character creation variant has emerged because of the diversity debate, which..... I'd rather not go into. It's a passionate subject which has led to healthy debate, and some not so healthy.
But I think that, in a weird way, the emergence of this issue is really missing the point.
As I say, at the end of the day, it's just optional character creation. Do what rocks for your group! I'll be over here constantly forgetting how water combat works :)
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We can't call them a "race," because that's "racist."
We can't assign to them a set of "racial traits," because that's racist.
We can't attribute to them a common set of cultural/behavioral patterns, because that's racist or stereotyping or micro-aggression or pick your name for it.
Their stat bonuses are the same as everyone else's.
Can you point out some posts saying this, particularly from recent threads, or articles to this effect?
From an anecdotal experience and lurking on a few threads, I have never seen two argued, or people saying four had to happen. Your point on three is very broad; most seem to object to language or descriptions saying "this race is x and the majority will act / believe this way", particularly along races that have allegorical origins or seem to be based on stereotyping*, and the implications that race and culture are the same. I haven't seen four suggested or wanted to be enforced (from a personal point of view, I find it strange that Orc and Kobald are the only ones with negative stat bonuses in 5e).
Your first point is one I can see a limited number of people arguing, but I think people's main contention and confusion is how the word race is used IRL, especially in contrast to species.
I've seen you argue a lot about this before, and you seem passionate on it. What are your main concerns around this optional system existing?
* I'm mainly talking about orcs here, particularly as (from my knowledge), orcs in D&D take a good amount of inspiration from Tolkien. Tolkien described orcs as "
In a private letter, Tolkien describes orcs as:
squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types.
While I understand the need for death of the author and some divorcing, and the fact this isn't related directly to D&D, the reference to Mongols and that attitude is... problematic.
I will further note however that Tolkien was fairly anti-racist for his time as well.
It’s optional now, until a new rule set comes out and makes it the standard. The issue also comes around when trying to mesh the competing views into a single table. If this is the way the group you’re with wants to do things, then do it. You don’t need to change the rules for everyone else and create confusion on which methods you are going to use when trying to find a new group. Eventually it’s going to lead to more ostracization for one group or the other. If racial bonuses are such an issue then get rid of them completely.
I'm just going to use the word, "origin". It was used in a couple of tweets. Seems like a good fit to me - maintains a lore-focused vibe, not too sciency nor provocative in other ways.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
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Because typically racial bonuses force you into racial stereotypes. Now, you might want to play a stereotypical X, many players actually do, but it should be a choice, not something the game forces on you.
Option 1:
Use what's been there for ages. Orcs are stronger than halflings, hence Orcs have higher starting strength modifiers. Orcs look stronger than halflings. Orcs are bigger than halflings - hell, baby orcs are bigger than halflings. If you want to min/max your Barbarian, you're starting stats are better served by playing an Orc rather than a halfling. From ages 6 to 60, show any of the orcs on the 1st 3 pages of a google image alongside any halfling from the 1st 3 pages of a google image search. Tell that person to "pick the barbarian". They'll choose the orc. Is this how it should be? That's for you to decide, but, in this case, it is what it is.
Option 2:
Leave strength to how you play, not what you play. Your halfling is feral. He grew up among the rotted vines of the Darkwood. He fought day in and day out against treants trying to confine him to the earth. From toddler to adult, he's struggled (literally) against demonic vines of darkness and filth. This halfling is strong. He's a barbarian! The orc meanwhile spent time in dark dungeons and forgotten libraries. Rarely taking time to eat, it was a tome, spectacles, and a candle. That's all he needed. This orc is small in stature - as perhaps his parents, though full blooded orcs, followed the same path. This orc is intellectual. You've chosen to forego strength and instead have an orc with an 18 Int. You're strength is a meager 9. When you have Fireball and your wits, why do you need more?
Choose an option. Move on. Sleep Well. It's not that fuc%ing complicated.
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That’s why I proposed my idea:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/79302-dungeons-dragons-next-book-will-offer-an?comment=13
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Yeah, I saw that. It's just a compromise that will satisfy no-one, it makes race less significant, but it's still significant.
The game has never forced it on you.
If you don't want to play a character everyone is going to despise because that old table in the AD&D book says almost all races have hatred or antipathy toward you, don't play a half-orc.
I mean really, it is super-simple to avoid playing a racial stereotype. Just play a human. It's what people really want anyway -- a human with stat bonuses the character has no real reason to have, but the player wants them anyway. Oh and maybe a cool exotic look to make them feel "special."
Because trying to do the work of actually making your character special, unique, or memorable in RP is way too much work. Just be a cutey-pie blue tiefling with horns who everyone loves and nobody at all fears due to her part-fiend nature. Being feared is no fun, after all. And tieflings make great spellcasters with all those racial abilities and stat bonuses. And that part's fun!
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I actually do this already. Since there is a "Manual" option for attributes I moved some points around in my players to not gimp them in their class because of their race choice. It will be nice to have the option better baked in the DnD builder. So the net change benefits more people without affecting existing players of the old ruleset.
In the end I think the math attributes hsould be able to be just shifted around while keeping and improving the other racial bonuses to make race choice still matter.
And to everyone saying you are just a human cosplaying... no, hell no... humans don't have darkvision!!
They should just get rid of humans because they’d be pointless anyway.
It should be significant. Otherwise it’s irrelevant.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I'm fine with it being purely cosmetic, at least for PCs. Gender is purely cosmetic in modern D&D and that doesn't seem to prevent people playing both male and female characters, nor does it prevent it making a difference when RPing.
I mean, there'd still be other traits like Relentless Endurance/Savage Attacks/Darkvision. Races are more than their ability scores; if they were just their ability scores and nothing else, then that would make for a very good argument for not changing them, but that's 1) not the case, and 2) would make for a very, very, *very* boring game, IMO.
Well, I’m not fine with it being purely cosmetic. It defeats the purpose of having the different options.
I totally see your points and absolutely agree - Half-Orcs are genetically stronger. There's no stigma or agenda here, that's just how the creatures are designed in the handbook. This coupled with the other Half-Orc abilities are what make them interesting or 'cool'.
That said, and to pick up on your point of 'Is this really what the majority of players want?', I'd offer my completely uninformed opinion and say probably no, BUT some people may want to play this way.
At the end of the day, it's just a different method of character creation. It's not a big deal. If people want to create characters through the standard PHB way that' we've had for ages, amazing! If people want to try something new for whatever reason they believe is important to them (e.g. something new to play with, diversity), fantastic!
It's up to each table to decide what matters most to them. Then continue on the main quest of having a good time with your mates.
#Open D&D
Have the Physical Books? Confused as to why you're not allowed to redeem them for free on D&D Beyond? Questions answered here at the Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You FAQ
Looking to add mouse-over triggered tooltips to such things like magic items, monsters or combat actions? Then dash over to the How to Add Tooltips thread.
You know there is a precedent for this that can be studied as an object lesson.
City of Heroes is a superhero MMORPG. They have 5 "origins" -- as in superhero origin. The origins are Mutation, Science, Technology, Magic, and Natural. There is no game mechanic whatsoever behind these origins. They are purely cosmetic. Any orgin can go with any archetype (class), powerset (subclass), body type (male, female, huge male, huge female), or any physical appearance (human, alien, rabbit head, whatever you want). It does just what some people here are arguing for with "race" in D&D -- purely cosmetic.
It also is completely irrelevant and does not factor into either gameplay or missions, story arcs, or 99% of the RP that I have ever seen in the game (playing exclusively on RP oriented servers, if it's there, I'd have seen it). Nobody notices what your origin is. Nobody even knows (there's only one place to find it, which hardly anyone checks for other PCs). Nobody cares. it's irrelevant.
Which begs the question of -- why have origins? I think they have them because they thought that a superhero game should have them, but they didn't know what to do with them. They tried to make them kind of matter by saying you could only use certain enhancements for your powers by origin, but every origin has access to its own flavor of every single possible enhancement in the game (literally the only difference is the shape of the icon when you slot them in, and maybe the flavor text), and there are shops where you can exchange them... So literally the only difference your origin makes is what shop you buy your enhancements in. Later on when they made invention enhancements they gave up on tying them to origin and now nothing left in the game really uses origin at all.
Is that what people want for races? COH shows you how to do it. It also shows you how to make them not worth even having in the game. If the devs of COH had taken origin out of the game, I'm not sure anyone would have noticed, or cared. Do we want that with races?
I don't... I want them to matter.
But then, I wanted origin to matter in COH too.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
@Lamoon01: THANK you.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, THANK you!
If anyone, as a DM, doesn't like this...it's entirely optional! Nobody forces you to do this. And I would appreciate not being told the way I, as a DM, should be running my table either.
This thread again? It's an optional rule set. Why is this an issue?
Actually, it sounds like they don't do anything at all. The cosmetic options are what the costume creator lets you do, which again, has absolutely no effect on missions, etc, but certainly can affect RP.
@Mezzurah you're welcome! I'm glad I'm at least making some sense :P
@Heartofjuyomk2 BECAUSE IT IS!!!!!!! lol
I do completely get the arguments about how this does feel kinda forced into what most people deem the 'original/standard' way of character creation. But I also get the arguments about how one of the beautiful aspects of this game is its inclusive nature, so is this not a step in the right direction?
Again, another uninformed opinion here - I think the hot topic is that the character creation variant has emerged because of the diversity debate, which..... I'd rather not go into. It's a passionate subject which has led to healthy debate, and some not so healthy.
But I think that, in a weird way, the emergence of this issue is really missing the point.
As I say, at the end of the day, it's just optional character creation. Do what rocks for your group! I'll be over here constantly forgetting how water combat works :)
#Open D&D
Have the Physical Books? Confused as to why you're not allowed to redeem them for free on D&D Beyond? Questions answered here at the Hardcover Books, D&D Beyond and You FAQ
Looking to add mouse-over triggered tooltips to such things like magic items, monsters or combat actions? Then dash over to the How to Add Tooltips thread.
Can you point out some posts saying this, particularly from recent threads, or articles to this effect?
From an anecdotal experience and lurking on a few threads, I have never seen two argued, or people saying four had to happen. Your point on three is very broad; most seem to object to language or descriptions saying "this race is x and the majority will act / believe this way", particularly along races that have allegorical origins or seem to be based on stereotyping*, and the implications that race and culture are the same. I haven't seen four suggested or wanted to be enforced (from a personal point of view, I find it strange that Orc and Kobald are the only ones with negative stat bonuses in 5e).
Your first point is one I can see a limited number of people arguing, but I think people's main contention and confusion is how the word race is used IRL, especially in contrast to species.
I've seen you argue a lot about this before, and you seem passionate on it. What are your main concerns around this optional system existing?
* I'm mainly talking about orcs here, particularly as (from my knowledge), orcs in D&D take a good amount of inspiration from Tolkien. Tolkien described orcs as "
In a private letter, Tolkien describes orcs as:
While I understand the need for death of the author and some divorcing, and the fact this isn't related directly to D&D, the reference to Mongols and that attitude is... problematic.
I will further note however that Tolkien was fairly anti-racist for his time as well.
The whole thing is complicated and very grey.
It’s optional now, until a new rule set comes out and makes it the standard. The issue also comes around when trying to mesh the competing views into a single table. If this is the way the group you’re with wants to do things, then do it. You don’t need to change the rules for everyone else and create confusion on which methods you are going to use when trying to find a new group. Eventually it’s going to lead to more ostracization for one group or the other. If racial bonuses are such an issue then get rid of them completely.
I'm just going to use the word, "origin". It was used in a couple of tweets. Seems like a good fit to me - maintains a lore-focused vibe, not too sciency nor provocative in other ways.
Origin: Orc, Half-Elf, Human, Drown, Genasi, Bard, Goliath...
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.