Yeah, two out of five characters I’ve made for a proper campaign were Drow. One died after 3 hrs 30 mins. The other retired as game was postponed due to covid.
The DM and I retired her a few sessions ago. I am definitely going to play a Drow in the future as I did like the race. My current character is an Aasimar Circle of Land:Arctic Druid which is why I am excited for Icewind Dale:Rime of the Frost Maiden(considering her deity is Auril).
I am probably gonna do that if I find I don't like the content, but I just don't think it would help. I think that they are gonna keep going that direction anyway.
Just to be clear... when I said, if you don't like what D&D is doing, don't support them and don't buy their stuff, but buy content from other publishers, I was not saying to do this so that WOTC will change their corporate direction. Such a thing was never even remotely on my mind.
The reason to do this isn't for WOTC... It's for you. If it bothers you that much, what WOTC is doing with D&D -- about anything, not just races, but classes, alignment, UA, what have you -- then it doesn't make sense for you to keep spending your money on a product you dislike. Rather, spend it on a product you do like.
There are many companies that I won't buy from anymore. Those people are almost all still in business. I didn't try to organize protests or a boycott or put them out of business. I just stopped giving them my money. For example, after what they did with SWG, I decided I would never buy another game run by SOE (Sony Online Entertainment) or ever give them my money. I wasn't trying to affect SOE's corporate direction. I just refused to support them with my money. Or maybe a bit closer to home -- after a string of what I consider absolute disasters from Bioware, which was at one time my favorite CRPG creator, I refuse to buy anything from them anymore. Bioware is still out there -- still making games and money. It doesn't bother me that they are, or that other people still like their games. But I don't give them my hard-earned money. I find other games I can play, made by other companies who have more respect for me as a game consumer.
It's the same thing here. If you don't like what WOTC is doing... don't give them anymore money. Spend your money on things you like, not things you don't like.
and if you really dont like this way, you can still play Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, with white good guys versus "colored" bad guys (any color, green, black, red.. )
and all the bad dragons are obviously RED ONES (the other colors were.. less bad than the iconic RED dragon... or all the fiends being BLACK or RED...)
and we were all eterosexual, the girls had giant boobs in chain mail ...the drow society was an EVIL society ruled by... FEMALES...
you catch the drift ?
ah, we were thoughts as satanists in those good old times...
prejudice, racism.. all reflects in our "games"
i love the new tendency tbh, long life to tasha and her options
long life to this great game, that thanks to the people behind it, as started to fight prejudice since a very long time
and if you really dont like this way, you can still play Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, with white good guys versus "colored" bad guys (any color, green, black, red.. )
and all the bad dragons are obviously RED ONES (the other colors were.. less bad than the iconic RED dragon... or all the fiends being BLACK or RED...)
and we were all eterosexual, the girls had giant boobs in chain mail ...the drow society was an EVIL society ruled by... FEMALES...
you catch the drift ?
ah, we were thoughts as satanists in those good old times...
prejudice, racism.. all reflects in our "games"
i love the new tendency tbh, long life to tasha and her options
long life to this great game, that thanks to the people behind it, as started to fight prejudice since a very long time
Amusingly OP says this isn't a political post but then proceeds to make a political post. Just because you say it isn't political doesn't make it true.
Amusingly OP says this isn't a political post but then proceeds to make a political post. Just because you say it isn't political doesn't make it true.
Huh, yeah. He he. Well, I think Tasha’s will be great for everyone, even if only for the subclasses and Artificer. We can’t complain, too - WE HELPED WOTC DECIDE TO DO ALL THIS! We’re to blame for what we hate, really. But, me? I’m just excited. Tasha’s probably means 5e will be around for a while yet.
That’s a very good sign. I’m defo looking forward to it.
The issue, AS22, is that there was a giant thirty-five page flaming argument on this exact same subject that was locked and fell off the front page not even two weeks ago. The scars from that one haven't healed, and it involved most of the same folks who'd normally respond to this one. We've all dun said what we can about the contents of the book and whether or not it represents an unacceptable pollution of the idea of species in D&D, and it drove the mods spitting mad enough to deep-six the thread.
People don't want real-life issues intruding in their fantasy games. Game Night is supposed to be a safe space, a fun space, where everything is merry and the world can go stuff itself for a few hours. If, to you, that means orcs are Always Evil and the story is about stopping them from taking over the Kingdom? Go for it. For some of the rest of us, getting rid of that mentality is what creates the safe, fun space.
Trust me. Nobody who calls him/herself a gamer and means it is going to take this as liberty to create awful chimera nonsense monsters with 'just the best bits' from every species. Munchkins don't need any new rules to do their munchkin thing, and the rest of us are here to use these new tools to expand stories and worldbuilding, not abandon it.
So don't take it as a personal affront that people are trying to sink the thread. You just had unfortunate timing with it is all, and people are trying to avoid another Poo-rricane. Just try to remember - the rest of us buy the books and love the game too, hm? Warts and all, we're all here to play. Some of us just have different ways of doing it.
I understand this is a sensitive subject because of all the stuff that has happened around this. But in response to your second paragraph, I think that if some people are offended by orcs and drow, that they can just change that for their game. I don't see the need to make it the new normal.
And I am not a orcs are evil absolutist. Half the orcs in my world are good, there is gray zone there. But what allows that to be interesting in my world is that in base lore, they are normally wholly evil. I think that if they start messing with the lore of any of the races that they will become less interesting and more generic or perhaps bland.
Ok so if the new adventurers league is a preview of TCOE then you have nothing to fear in this department. From the AL rules thing:
”The description of a race might suggest various things about the behavior and personality of that people’s archetypal adventurers. You may ignore those suggestions, whether they’re about alignment, moods, interests, or any other personality trait. Your character’s personality and behavior are entirely yours to determine.“
The document allows one to switch their species ASIs to whichever they wish, respecting the original ratio. I.e. a high elf has +2DX, +1IQ naturally, and thus could switch that to +2X and +1Y, where X and Y are not the same stat. One can also change skill, tool, and weapon proficiencies out for like proficiencies, with tools and simple weapons being considered equivalent/intechangeable. E.g. one can trade a Simple weapon proficiency for a tool proficiency, a tool proficiency for a simple weapon proficiency, but to get a Martial weapon proficiency you have to specifically start with a martial weapon proficiency. You can trade that MW proficiency for a simple or tool proficiency if you prefer, however. Skill profs always trade for another skill prof.
Honestly it's about what most of us expected it to be. Cultural stuff like skill/tool/weapon training can be switched around as it always should've been able to do, and you can assign your bonus points freely so long as you assign the same bonuses. No big deal insofar as 'KILLING LORE FOREVER', absolutely no sign of Simic Hybrid biological mutation nonsense, and a splendid tool to improve character customization.
The document allows one to switch their species ASIs to whichever they wish, respecting the original ratio. I.e. a high elf has +2DX, +1IQ naturally, and thus could switch that to +2X and +1Y, where X and Y are not the same stat. One can also change skill, tool, and weapon proficiencies out for like proficiencies, with tools and simple weapons being considered equivalent/intechangeable. E.g. one can trade a Simple weapon proficiency for a tool proficiency, a tool proficiency for a simple weapon proficiency, but to get a Martial weapon proficiency you have to specifically start with a martial weapon proficiency. You can trade that MW proficiency for a simple or tool proficiency if you prefer, however. Skill profs always trade for another skill prof.
Honestly it's about what most of us expected it to be. Cultural stuff like skill/tool/weapon training can be switched around as it always should've been able to do, and you can assign your bonus points freely so long as you assign the same bonuses. No big deal insofar as 'KILLING LORE FOREVER', absolutely no sign of Simic Hybrid biological mutation nonsense, and a splendid tool to improve character customization.
Perhaps that is the point, but I think that doing this is completely unnecessary. If a DM wants to change a creatures lore and stat bonuses, they can and have been for years. I don't wanna see DnD go into a "oh we have to worry about the beholders feelings because we don't know all he has been through." In DnD some things are evil, exploring why may be interesting , but I don't wanna start taking that away, it'll make each of the awesome unique races, less interesting. The legend of Drizzt was largely so awesome because of the evil he came from.
And preconceived notions? All the time in DnD people change things to better fit the story they want to tell. I have never seen this as an issue and feel like it is a poor direction to go with game design. R.A Salvatore had Drizzt leave his evil society and come to the surface to help people. All the time people will have perhaps a red dragon that does an act of good or there are some peaceful kobolds that don't wanna steal and kill. But those stories are interesting because their cultures are normally evil or perhaps some genetic or magical powers makes them evil. If we put everything io a gray zone, tgen suddenly anytime a monster does something good, its like "well lot's do."
I just want to note that even with Forgotten Realms, Drizzt wasn't an exception (though he is arguably the most famous and the one people usually point to). There have long been goodly drow in the followers of Eilistraee. Prior to 4e, drow were a lot more nuanced. Novels and source books actually had non-Lolthite drow: Eilistraeens and Vhaeraunites. They were "killed" in 4e because WotC did indeed want Drizzt to be the one special snowflake, and all the other drow to be evil. They shot themselves in the foot with that, imho. With the Sundering (and again, my statement here applies to the Forgotten Realms setting), gods like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were restored (and Ed Greenwood has said the siblings are allied now). They've still unfortunately been largely ignored (and don't get me started on what MToF did), but if WotC actually looked to established lore, they would find they at least have a foundation for the change they want to make. I love lore, and while of course we can take what we want and ignore what we don't, change it up, do whatever. It's our game. But from a setting's standpoint, I am interested in the lore itself, like real world history. That's why I love the Realms--it feels like a living, breathing place. 5e seems to be treating lore willy-nilly, and that is the frustrating point for me. I'm all about diversity, but I think if they looked to lore already there, it would at least give them a starting point. It's not the entire solution, but bringing Eilistraee and Vhaeraun would go along way to bringing back the nuance to the drow, imho.
Similar thing with orcs. There are the Ondthi orcs, followers of Eldath, and they've been around since 2e, but have been largely ignored.
I myself am of two minds about TCOE (well, from what little I know, anyway). On the one hand, I do think that the "races" each have a culture: elves have a culture, gnomes have a culture, dwarves have a culture, etc. Much like the real world, culture makes us unique (though it shouldn't divide us). Diversity is very important to me (I have a bunch of queer representation in my world, for example), but part of that diversity comes from the various cultures.
On the other hand, an individual is not the sum of their culture (not every dwarf is a miner, not every elf is haughty, etc), so I think what the book is trying to do is say, "a halfling raised by dwarves is going to behave more like a dwarf, and we're all individuals". I don't think it should be taken to the extreme of having everyone be able to have the same traits that are otherwise race-specific. But this I mean, genetic and inherent racial traits (elves having low light vision, for example). My hope is that it allows for culture and individuality.
The problem I see with "cultural" characteristics is that not everyone in a culture buys in to that culture. America is known as loving guns but how many Americans have never fired one? Japan is known as a tech loving culture but plenty of Japanese people aren't into social media or tech gadgets. That's all these rule changes are accounting for. The people who aren't necessarily part of the status quo of their culture.
I understand we haven't even seen what TCoE is going to add, so perhaps I am getting concerned over nothing. As I said, I just love this game. I do look forward to the new content and hope that things won't change too much in future products.
Please, understand that AS22 has since made it clear that the concerns were voiced and is willing to wait to see what comes what may.
There is no need to persist in arguing further when nobody seems to have anything new that wasn't already stated in this thread or the other threads.
Let things heal for now.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
I just want to note that even with Forgotten Realms, Drizzt wasn't an exception (though he is arguably the most famous and the one people usually point to). There have long been goodly drow in the followers of Eilistraee. Prior to 4e, drow were a lot more nuanced. Novels and source books actually had non-Lolthite drow: Eilistraeens and Vhaeraunites. They were "killed" in 4e because WotC did indeed want Drizzt to be the one special snowflake, and all the other drow to be evil.
He was, and they were. Everything after is just ex post facto writing to satisfy readers and players.
Everything in D&D is made up stuff so you can just make up that there was always a special non-Lolth Drow community. Poof, there you go done. But the lore says otherwise.
If there were a whole pantheon and thousands of other Drow just like Drizzt, then Mielikki would have pointed it out to him. Those other gods would have seen his plight and rescued him instead of having Mieliiki step in.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
The idea of non-evil drow who don't worship Lolth existed in D&D before Salvitore started writing for TSR. He just ignored it so he could have Drizzt be angsty and brooding about how alone he is and how nobody ever understands how hard it is for him.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
@Justsikko: Of course, that is why I said that everyone is also an individual and not the sum of their culture, and why I said culture and individuality.
The idea of non-evil drow who don't worship Lolth existed in D&D before Salvitore started writing for TSR. He just ignored it so he could have Drizzt be angsty and brooding about how alone he is and how nobody ever understands how hard it is for him.
Pretty much. I like Drizzt, and Bob himself has said Drizzt isn't the only good drow, he's just the one who got away, but then proceeds to make him out to be an exception, and ignores Eilistraee and her followers simply because he doesn't like her.
The idea of non-evil drow who don't worship Lolth existed in D&D before Salvitore started writing for TSR. He just ignored it so he could have Drizzt be angsty and brooding about how alone he is and how nobody ever understands how hard it is for him.
Reference?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
The DM and I retired her a few sessions ago. I am definitely going to play a Drow in the future as I did like the race. My current character is an Aasimar Circle of Land:Arctic Druid which is why I am excited for Icewind Dale:Rime of the Frost Maiden(considering her deity is Auril).
Dude, Dragon of Icespire Peak sounds way cooler than Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden. Cold air vs frozen edifice, structure wins.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Just to be clear... when I said, if you don't like what D&D is doing, don't support them and don't buy their stuff, but buy content from other publishers, I was not saying to do this so that WOTC will change their corporate direction. Such a thing was never even remotely on my mind.
The reason to do this isn't for WOTC... It's for you. If it bothers you that much, what WOTC is doing with D&D -- about anything, not just races, but classes, alignment, UA, what have you -- then it doesn't make sense for you to keep spending your money on a product you dislike. Rather, spend it on a product you do like.
There are many companies that I won't buy from anymore. Those people are almost all still in business. I didn't try to organize protests or a boycott or put them out of business. I just stopped giving them my money. For example, after what they did with SWG, I decided I would never buy another game run by SOE (Sony Online Entertainment) or ever give them my money. I wasn't trying to affect SOE's corporate direction. I just refused to support them with my money. Or maybe a bit closer to home -- after a string of what I consider absolute disasters from Bioware, which was at one time my favorite CRPG creator, I refuse to buy anything from them anymore. Bioware is still out there -- still making games and money. It doesn't bother me that they are, or that other people still like their games. But I don't give them my hard-earned money. I find other games I can play, made by other companies who have more respect for me as a game consumer.
It's the same thing here. If you don't like what WOTC is doing... don't give them anymore money. Spend your money on things you like, not things you don't like.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
and if you really dont like this way, you can still play Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, with white good guys versus "colored" bad guys (any color, green, black, red.. )
and all the bad dragons are obviously RED ONES (the other colors were.. less bad than the iconic RED dragon... or all the fiends being BLACK or RED...)
and we were all eterosexual, the girls had giant boobs in chain mail ...the drow society was an EVIL society ruled by... FEMALES...
you catch the drift ?
ah, we were thoughts as satanists in those good old times...
prejudice, racism.. all reflects in our "games"
i love the new tendency tbh, long life to tasha and her options
long life to this great game, that thanks to the people behind it, as started to fight prejudice since a very long time
Do none of you "Old Timers" remember 2nd edition Skills and Powers? Customizing races is not a new thing.
Agreed
Amusingly OP says this isn't a political post but then proceeds to make a political post. Just because you say it isn't political doesn't make it true.
That’s a very good sign. I’m defo looking forward to it.
Ok so if the new adventurers league is a preview of TCOE then you have nothing to fear in this department. From the AL rules thing:
”The description of a race might suggest various things about the behavior and personality of that people’s archetypal adventurers. You may ignore those suggestions, whether they’re about alignment, moods, interests, or any other personality trait. Your character’s personality and behavior are entirely yours to determine.“
The document allows one to switch their species ASIs to whichever they wish, respecting the original ratio. I.e. a high elf has +2DX, +1IQ naturally, and thus could switch that to +2X and +1Y, where X and Y are not the same stat. One can also change skill, tool, and weapon proficiencies out for like proficiencies, with tools and simple weapons being considered equivalent/intechangeable. E.g. one can trade a Simple weapon proficiency for a tool proficiency, a tool proficiency for a simple weapon proficiency, but to get a Martial weapon proficiency you have to specifically start with a martial weapon proficiency. You can trade that MW proficiency for a simple or tool proficiency if you prefer, however. Skill profs always trade for another skill prof.
Honestly it's about what most of us expected it to be. Cultural stuff like skill/tool/weapon training can be switched around as it always should've been able to do, and you can assign your bonus points freely so long as you assign the same bonuses. No big deal insofar as 'KILLING LORE FOREVER', absolutely no sign of Simic Hybrid biological mutation nonsense, and a splendid tool to improve character customization.
Please do not contact or message me.
This sounds great.
I just want to note that even with Forgotten Realms, Drizzt wasn't an exception (though he is arguably the most famous and the one people usually point to). There have long been goodly drow in the followers of Eilistraee. Prior to 4e, drow were a lot more nuanced. Novels and source books actually had non-Lolthite drow: Eilistraeens and Vhaeraunites. They were "killed" in 4e because WotC did indeed want Drizzt to be the one special snowflake, and all the other drow to be evil. They shot themselves in the foot with that, imho. With the Sundering (and again, my statement here applies to the Forgotten Realms setting), gods like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were restored (and Ed Greenwood has said the siblings are allied now). They've still unfortunately been largely ignored (and don't get me started on what MToF did), but if WotC actually looked to established lore, they would find they at least have a foundation for the change they want to make. I love lore, and while of course we can take what we want and ignore what we don't, change it up, do whatever. It's our game. But from a setting's standpoint, I am interested in the lore itself, like real world history. That's why I love the Realms--it feels like a living, breathing place. 5e seems to be treating lore willy-nilly, and that is the frustrating point for me. I'm all about diversity, but I think if they looked to lore already there, it would at least give them a starting point. It's not the entire solution, but bringing Eilistraee and Vhaeraun would go along way to bringing back the nuance to the drow, imho.
Similar thing with orcs. There are the Ondthi orcs, followers of Eldath, and they've been around since 2e, but have been largely ignored.
I myself am of two minds about TCOE (well, from what little I know, anyway). On the one hand, I do think that the "races" each have a culture: elves have a culture, gnomes have a culture, dwarves have a culture, etc. Much like the real world, culture makes us unique (though it shouldn't divide us). Diversity is very important to me (I have a bunch of queer representation in my world, for example), but part of that diversity comes from the various cultures.
On the other hand, an individual is not the sum of their culture (not every dwarf is a miner, not every elf is haughty, etc), so I think what the book is trying to do is say, "a halfling raised by dwarves is going to behave more like a dwarf, and we're all individuals". I don't think it should be taken to the extreme of having everyone be able to have the same traits that are otherwise race-specific. But this I mean, genetic and inherent racial traits (elves having low light vision, for example). My hope is that it allows for culture and individuality.
The problem I see with "cultural" characteristics is that not everyone in a culture buys in to that culture. America is known as loving guns but how many Americans have never fired one? Japan is known as a tech loving culture but plenty of Japanese people aren't into social media or tech gadgets. That's all these rule changes are accounting for. The people who aren't necessarily part of the status quo of their culture.
Please, understand that AS22 has since made it clear that the concerns were voiced and is willing to wait to see what comes what may.
There is no need to persist in arguing further when nobody seems to have anything new that wasn't already stated in this thread or the other threads.
Let things heal for now.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
He was, and they were. Everything after is just ex post facto writing to satisfy readers and players.
Everything in D&D is made up stuff so you can just make up that there was always a special non-Lolth Drow community. Poof, there you go done. But the lore says otherwise.
If there were a whole pantheon and thousands of other Drow just like Drizzt, then Mielikki would have pointed it out to him. Those other gods would have seen his plight and rescued him instead of having Mieliiki step in.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The idea of non-evil drow who don't worship Lolth existed in D&D before Salvitore started writing for TSR. He just ignored it so he could have Drizzt be angsty and brooding about how alone he is and how nobody ever understands how hard it is for him.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
@Justsikko: Of course, that is why I said that everyone is also an individual and not the sum of their culture, and why I said culture and individuality.
Pretty much. I like Drizzt, and Bob himself has said Drizzt isn't the only good drow, he's just the one who got away, but then proceeds to make him out to be an exception, and ignores Eilistraee and her followers simply because he doesn't like her.
Reference?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Eilistraee was created by Ed Greenwood prior to the publication of the Forgotten Realms, as was Qilué Erésseae.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.