I'm pretty open to different pay models. It all comes down to what you get for what you pay. If it's worth it, I'll pay. I'm just getting into 5e so I haven't sunk much money into books or anything else. I hope they don't make it too expensive to appeal to hardcore veteran players and DMs, the kind of people who would be most likely to have already spent a ton of money on 5e and just happen to be the most likely to use DnD Beyond.
I understand and agree with your point. But what you are missing is that the content overlaps, the developers must find a price point or a compromise to get people to adopt the online version if they also have the version in book form.
If the price is too high I'll just use my books to get the same information, If the price is reasonable I'll use both, they will get more subscribers at the reasonable price.
If I have to repurchase books that I spent several hundred dollars on already, I'll just use the books.
It reminds me of "The Big Bang Theory" where they are developing an app and one person says "To make it profitable we'll have to charge $1million" and Raj replies "Yeah, but if we do an introductory cost of $500,000 we'll get way more people."
I'm willing to pay a subscription fee, but not a super high one.
I already own every book, I just picked up Yawning Portal an hour ago. When it comes to features I will use? I'll get millage from the Monsters index if I can customize them a lot for NPCs, and the Rules Compendium will be handy to prevent disputes at the table. I've been running 5e since the game launched and Haven't given out a single off the shelf magic item so I won't use that much though the reference could be useful. The spells list... I'm torn about because I've already bought all the spell cards from GaleForce and use a tablet app for reference for my NPCs. For my homebrew I've built a giant OneNote document with several thousand pages of monsters, magic items, and spells for reference. The homebrew system would have to be easy to add content too for me to migrate all that into it.
Also I have to consider the lifespan of DnDBeyond. Assuming its like DnDInsider and lives only for the length of 5e's lifespan that means I have probably 5 to 6 years of subscription fees... at amazon prime's price lets say that is $500. My DnD group meets once per month, for a 6 hour game, so that's roughly $1.30 per hour of game time on this resource. I'd prefer that lower but its actually quite good compared to something like going to the movies. Compared to Fantasy Grounds where the books cost roughly the same but remain digital with the inherent flaws there of and an included 3rd party software subscription is required per player rather than per group... the math for Fantasy Grounds comes out to around 2.30 per game hour making it a weaker investment.
Conversely I've bought every DnD book in print. At roughly $50 apiece I've invested around $500 in resources already and look to continue spending $30 per quarter on new books as they release over the next 5 to 6 years as well. This works out to be roughly $600, giving me a slightly higher $1.70 per entertainment hour, this time on physical resources. Physical resources are inherently a better investment because they have an inherent value that digital goods don't have. When DnD 6e comes out the physical books will continue to function even if DnD Beyond is shut down and if I want to switch editions, the books retain an inherent resale value to offset the expense of the new edition. Fiscally the physical books are a better investment for me and can justify their slightly higher cost.
In the end WotC's and Curse's best price point is one where I invest in both the physical books and the digital products. This maximizes their profit as they are receiving payment twice in one way shape or form. The initial overhead Curse invests in making the database and website will taper off eventually as the database is finished and the web-development transitions to upkeep, this will ultimately lead DnDBeyond to have a lower overhead cost than printing, warehousing, and shipping books. Thus it is natural for DnDBeyond to cost less than the physical books, particularly in light of the user's lack of ownership, lack of resale options, and limited lifespan. I'd personally like to see my entertainment hour value on DnDBeyond go closer to a dollar, instead of the 8.25 per month like amazon something like... 7.99 or even 6.99 in order to get me to both buy the physical books and subscribe to the digital resource.
Alternatively, a higher subscription/purchase price, with a discount for verified purchases of the physical resources would also help. For instance, If I subscribe to DnDBeyond and buy the physical books through amazon could I get an extra 15% off the amazon price? This would roughly drop the book cost to around 1.30 per entertainment hour giving me a similar overall expense without directly impacting DnDBeyond's price. Though of course it comes out of Amazon's profit and to a lesser extent WotC's profit margin, it does reward loyalty. And generally speaking the more you keep a player in the ecosystem the more likely they are to stay with the products they have. A buyer rewarded for loyalty is more likely to transition to DnD 6e's version of both print books and digital resources when they are available as well as buy additional products from either vendor over time. Brand loyalty and whatnot.
For everything d&d beyond has (and promises) would be worth some type of payment, if this was free to make an account but limited (like all the free books and maybe 3 character limit) that would be good.
I also will agree with everyone that there should be a way to get any book someone has physically here instead of having to buy it again.
I came across this quote from BadEye in another thread-
And finally, this is such a small part of what we plan to deliver for DDB. For launch we'll have the compendium and listings, character management, homebrew, etc., but the future holds encounter and monster builders, combat/ initiative tracker, integrations with other licensed partners, all kinds of cool streaming stuff and the list goes on. I don't want to give the entire list here because the roadmap will be informed and prioritized based on what players want.
As I've said elsewhere, we're in this for the long run.
I don't mean to be a debbie downer, but someone has to be: this plan is rife with huge failure points that every previous digital toolset has also run into, despite their intention to be in it for the long run. There are already encounter and monster builders available, already combat/initiative trackers available, already pretty much all of this stuff, available somewhere else and for free. When you release without an encounter builder, without so much as an initiative tracker, you will be assaulted by the online community. The feature set will be totally incomplete, the dramatic failure of being a "one-stop shop" for digital tools barely masked by sleek UI for what is a glorified set of drop-down menus. It will not be an improvement over free alternatives, and it will cost money to boot. Word of mouth will be bad, and adoption rates will be low. You'll get a spike of users upon release, and then it'll dramatically drop as the familiar gripes and distrust of WotC's digital efforts land on the limited feature set to fester into malcontent and bitterness toward this product. This is the story of most every D&D digital toolset released to date. A roadmap to full features will almost certainly not be enough to get people to subscribe/pay now. With low revenue, WotC's support will waver, and possibly collapse. If (not when) the full feature set is one day finally available, it will be hard to increase adoption from that initial, disadvantaged position, with the bad PR from the troubled launch hanging over you. The self-fulfilling prophecy of WotC's digital tools' failure will fulfill itself yet again.
I'm not saying this to say you're bad or that this is all a disaster, or that you should feel bad. I like the product so far and I want it to succeed, I want to use it for years and years to come. I'm saying it because you need a plan to make all that work. Is WotC committed to support until it can be full-featured, regardless of revenue trouble? If not, do you have a way to release unfinished features at launch with "still in beta" labels attached? In fact, if you reserve those features to those who are subscribed, it will go to justify the cost somewhat: your subscription funds full implementation of the beta features, and your use of the features helps refine that implementation. Whatever it is, I beg you to have a plan beyond "Release rules index and character builder, make a bunch of money, then release other basic features down the line." The alternatives are too good for that to work well.
I came across this quote from BadEye in another thread-
And finally, this is such a small part of what we plan to deliver for DDB. For launch we'll have the compendium and listings, character management, homebrew, etc., but the future holds encounter and monster builders, combat/ initiative tracker, integrations with other licensed partners, all kinds of cool streaming stuff and the list goes on. I don't want to give the entire list here because the roadmap will be informed and prioritized based on what players want.
As I've said elsewhere, we're in this for the long run.
I don't mean to be a debbie downer, but someone has to be: this plan is rife with huge failure points that every previous digital toolset has also run into, despite their intention to be in it for the long run. There are already encounter and monster builders available, already combat/initiative trackers available, already pretty much all of this stuff, available somewhere else and for free. When you release without an encounter builder, without so much as an initiative tracker, you will be assaulted by the online community. The feature set will be totally incomplete, the dramatic failure of being a "one-stop shop" for digital tools barely masked by sleek UI for what is a glorified set of drop-down menus. It will not be an improvement over free alternatives, and it will cost money to boot. Word of mouth will be bad, and adoption rates will be low. You'll get a spike of users upon release, and then it'll dramatically drop as the familiar gripes and distrust of WotC's digital efforts land on the limited feature set to fester into malcontent and bitterness toward this product. This is the story of most every D&D digital toolset released to date. A roadmap to full features will almost certainly not be enough to get people to subscribe/pay now. With low revenue, WotC's support will waver, and possibly collapse. If (not when) the full feature set is one day finally available, it will be hard to increase adoption from that initial, disadvantaged position, with the bad PR from the troubled launch hanging over you. The self-fulfilling prophecy of WotC's digital tools' failure will fulfill itself yet again.
I'm not saying this to say you're bad or that this is all a disaster, or that you should feel bad. I like the product so far and I want it to succeed, I want to use it for years and years to come. I'm saying it because you need a plan to make all that work. Is WotC committed to support until it can be full-featured, regardless of revenue trouble? If not, do you have a way to release unfinished features at launch with "still in beta" labels attached? In fact, if you reserve those features to those who are subscribed, it will go to justify the cost somewhat: your subscription funds full implementation of the beta features, and your use of the features helps refine that implementation. Whatever it is, I beg you to have a plan beyond "Release rules index and character builder, make a bunch of money, then release other basic features down the line." The alternatives are too good for that to work well.
Just two cents from an outside perspective.
Appreciate the perspective, but - in my opinion - you're making some assumptions here that don't stand on very firm ground.
You assume that what we launch with will not provide value that is worth the price we set. You're doing so from an incomplete feature set that is available in the first phase of beta and no actual information about the pricing model.
There are certainly community-created/ free tools that have done similar things out there, but those tools are not unified in a single place and for the most part lack the full run of official content.There's also the assumption that the features we release will have complete parity with the current offerings. I feel that a quick look at our listings will already demonstrate the ability to filter, find, and display information about something like spells that isn't easily-available (I've wished many times I could find all the force damage spells at once or to see all the spells that require Charisma saves).
It seems like there's also the idea that WotC is the only company investing in this enterprise, which is not the case. And also the idea that we will need to charge a high price early without features and content to justify it while we force everyone to wait a long time for the roadmap to actualize. Whereas we are very aware of some pretty successful companies out there (one starts with an "A" and the other starts with an "N") that have relatively low cost subscriptions that they keep adding value on top of over time without hiking up the prices.
My hope is that folks will see I'm not replying here to heap any snark onto the discussion. It is mostly to reassure everyone that we do indeed have a plan and I'm looking forward to making it happen.
I think the Netflix model is the best model. $10 a month and you get everything. Every new book that comes out and all the other features. The thing is that you get that constant stream of $10 from each subscriber some of those people who would have never bought the books but will check out the books because they are already paying anyway, and others will still buy the hard copy because they like having a physical copy. It would add a ton of value. Selling the digital books is a worse idea.
Selling the digital books is a worse idea than a subscription. First, it alienates customers who bought the physical books and feel as though they are being asked to pay again to get a digital copy. Second, fewer people will check out the books if they have to buy them but many more people would if they were part of their subscription and some of those may even decide to buy the physical book.
I think there has been fear in the past that this would result in fewer people buying the books but you have to take into account that not everyone buys every book and some players buy no books or only the player's handbook. Sure some people will choose not to buy a physical copy if they are subscribers but you are getting $10 a month from them anyway. Also, this will help retain subscribers because they know that if they cancel their subscription they lose access to not just the tools that can be found elsewhere but to all the book content.
This has worked with comic books with Marvel Unlimited and again with Netflix.
My worry is that fear of a changing business model will make Hasbro hamstring this project. There is a ton of potential here. Come on, this is the day and age where every company wants to be a "service" for a monthly fee. Look at MS Office and Photoshop. They don't want to sell people software anymore. They want people to subscribe for a low monthly fee.
If you want people to subscribe then there needs to be a ton of value.
I certainly don't take it as snarky, and thanks for the reply. Hopefully my fears are unfounded (I certainly admit that they are not specifically informed). That doesn't mean I won't push back a little, but I promise I do so in good faith.
One thing I should clarify, I wrote a bunch of criticisms in there that I expect will be made, but I don't believe they're actually correct. Calling it a glorified drop-down menu and such, that's not my actual opinion, I should have put that in scare quotes. I understand it's a gross oversimplification and not a fair assessment of the product, I only said it because it's a narrative I already see forming on reddit and elsewhere. I don't want that narrative to dominate after launch. My fear is that if the feature set at launch is perceived as limited with promises for more, it creates an opportunity for that narrative to take hold while everyone waits for full features. I mean, you've got a sizeable number of people balking at requiring a twitch account; criticism doesn't have to be really fair to dominate a narrative in a community as tiny as this one. Perception is as important as reality, and you've got to manage customer expectations early or the perception might kill enthusiasm, is really my entire point.
You assume that what we launch with will not provide value that is worth the price we set.
Not at all! I assume, based on that quote, that what you launch with will not be able to replace an encounter builder app, an initiative tracker app, a combat tracker app, or a dice roller app. Price has nothing to do with it. If that is the case (and you know better than I), then people will still be using a slew of third-party applications to help manage their D&D games, and you're asking them to swap out a few of them for yours, with the promise of more to come. All I'm saying is that there will be a good number of potential customers who will see that and turn away, perhaps intending to wait for a full feature set, or perhaps waiting to see if it's vaporware like DungeonScape. Meanwhile, the "incomplete" "day late and a dollar short" narrative gains traction, and it is that much harder to get to a critical mass of users because the initial word of mouth was so mixed. An early perception could set in which then creates its own reality.
It seems like there's also the idea that WotC is the only company investing in this enterprise, which is not the case.
I didn't mean financially, I meant with their IP. If Wizards decides to take their licensing ball and go home, more investors won't really save the project. Now, with that kind of financial support, Wizards may not care about the size of the user-base initially, and obviously ending whatever agreement has been signed is not an endeavor to be taken lightly anyway, but I'm a lawyer by training and that means I plan for the worst-case scenario. I've seen companies back promising endeavors like this with their IP, get disappointed by the fickle RPG crowd's response, and then walk away, killing a product just a few years after launch, even though development and product launch were relatively smooth.
Whereas we are very aware of some pretty successful companies out there (one starts with an "A" and the other starts with an "N") that have relatively low cost subscriptions that they keep adding value on top of over time without hiking up the prices.
Neither of those companies was entering a cottage industry already brimming with third-party apps that duplicate at least the core of their functionality. The amount that can be learned from their example may be limited. Those companies were some of the first on the scene of their respective business models, and the barriers to entry were high enough that third-party competitors were relatively few and could not compete much on price (not legally, at least). Though if you're aiming to be as high-value in terms of features for price as those two companies are, that is very exciting indeed: they are killer values, but they also rely on economies of scale to keep those subscription prices low (and they have both raised prices in the last couple years, and that first one has had persistent concerns about its stock value for a while now). DDB might not have that option. Then again, DDB's marginal cost won't be nearly as high, either, and with sufficient investment to cover the initial fixed costs and the group of likely companies already committing some of those resources, then yeah, that kind of value proposition is definitely doable.
Again, I'm saying all of this in good faith, if uninformed good faith (then again this thread is asking for feedback on a completely imagined pricing model for a mostly imagined product, so uninformed good faith is the rule rather than the exception around here), and I admit I am sometimes speculating as to a worst-case scenario. But given what happened to 4E's digital toolset production, we ought not rule out some worst-case scenarios (though my understanding is that that product was probably profitable; the worst-case scenario was quite unrelated to that, it just turned their roadmap of future features into vaporware). I'm glad to hear you're thinking about and planning for a successful launch. I won't keep dragging this out, since it's not squarely within the topic of the thread and was not really invited. Thanks for the chat.
I understand the need of a payment model, because if they give for free all the content of the books for free nobody will bought more books.
But for everyone who already bought the books it's abusive to pay again (or worst, pay again every month) for the same content. Some options:
- A free option, with ads and some 'advanced' tools blocked like characters slots (so you can create them but not save them), homebrew rules, DM tools and books like Volos, SCAG...
- A free option only with the SRD but no ads, micropayments for the books (cheap price, like $10-15) and tools
- I don't know if exists some way to proof we already bought the books, some editorials give for free the PDF with the books. But sure, with a unique code inside them, not possible for who already bought the books but a suggestion for next prints.
There is no way for them to know who bought the books and who didn't (up to this point). I think there will be some kind of monthly fee it is just a matter of how much and what is included in that. It will not be free and add supported (I would be shocked). I doubt it will be a one-time payment system or micro-transactions as that does not tend to be cost effective to support an ongoing online infrastructure. It will be interesting to see what the pricing model will be and how much.
I don't think Hasbro/WotC and Twitch/Curse have any problems to keep the DBs, servers and network infrastructure needed for DDB with their incomings. And I'm sorry, DDB is very nice and I'm sure it will be better, but It's not comparable to Netflix. And speaking of Netflix, it's probably the most valuable subscription right now, but I don't pay it for it's services and I will not. Why not compare it with Spotify? Yeah, right, it's free with a premium subscription for who wants it. Or Steam (pay for the games, some free, and with huge discounts)? And I'm sure series, movies, music and videogames require much more network, hardware and DBs maitenance.
All companies right now want a have a service with a monthly fee, sure, all companies want make money. But it's enough, we must to pay $10/month for every service a company want to create and sell us?
And last but not less, if DDB will be a subscription model with all the official content (including campaign sets, adventures, etc.) why I have to pay for all of it content monthly if I only want quick access to the core (PHB, MM and DMG)? This is not about how much and what they include or the quality of the web/app, it's about how much and what every one of us need and will use and find the balance between the companies and the customers interest. And there are many different profiles of costumers. So ok, a monthly fee it's clearly an option for who want everything and constant new content (Netflix model), but there must be more payment options for who seek less content/tools.
In a move my books got lost and after 6 months of looking for them I had no luck and had to purchase them again, paying for them a third time is just not going to happen for me unless this site really exceeds expectations. Right now I'm going to say I'd rather have a way to "activate" my books on the site and have options to maybe buy new ones as they come out. As the beta grows I might change my mind but in phase 1, I wouldn't pay for it.
I wouldn't mind paying again, as long as it's only a few bucks. I just started playing D&D, so I already bought the books and I am not willing to rebuy them all again at the standard price. If it were like $5 for the app, and maybe ~1$ for additional content that comes out (like Volo's Guide), I would have no problem buying the app. As for a subscription....I don't see the point of that. Maybe if the content constantly changed, but how many times has it seriously changed since the first release of D&D? I don't want to seriously have to spend another ~$100 for content I already physically own.
I think the Netflix model is the best model. $10 a month and you get everything. Every new book that comes out and all the other features. The thing is that you get that constant stream of $10 from each subscriber some of those people who would have never bought the books but will check out the books because they are already paying anyway, and others will still buy the hard copy because they like having a physical copy. It would add a ton of value. Selling the digital books is a worse idea.
Selling the digital books is a worse idea than a subscription. First, it alienates customers who bought the physical books and feel as though they are being asked to pay again to get a digital copy. Second, fewer people will check out the books if they have to buy them but many more people would if they were part of their subscription and some of those may even decide to buy the physical book.
I think there has been fear in the past that this would result in fewer people buying the books but you have to take into account that not everyone buys every book and some players buy no books or only the player's handbook. Sure some people will choose not to buy a physical copy if they are subscribers but you are getting $10 a month from them anyway. Also, this will help retain subscribers because they know that if they cancel their subscription they lose access to not just the tools that can be found elsewhere but to all the book content.
This has worked with comic books with Marvel Unlimited and again with Netflix.
My worry is that fear of a changing business model will make Hasbro hamstring this project. There is a ton of potential here. Come on, this is the day and age where every company wants to be a "service" for a monthly fee. Look at MS Office and Photoshop. They don't want to sell people software anymore. They want people to subscribe for a low monthly fee.
If you want people to subscribe then there needs to be a ton of value.
I honestly can't see what type of value they can give us in a subscription format here. The games been out for around 40 years and has only had like 7 real revisions, right? Sure there's a new monster manual or campaign every so often, but is all that really enough to warrant a subscription fee? What would I actually be subscribing to? If it's just videos, a magazine like addition, or Q&A, that could all be found elsewhere as well, and quite frankly, not worth an additional fee.
I just can't see how this can be released in any other format than a single purchase with in app transactions when new content comes out that someone is willing to pay for.
The Big "A" and the Big "N" sound like sound plans to base your subscription fees off of as a start. But honestly I hope that is where you set the celling and then begin to ask yourself how far back an we peel it from these two. After all the big "A" costs me less than ten bucks a month but will provide me with WAY more value than this service will even though I run games three times a week. Amazon gives me free shipping access to millions of books that if I buy them as well as TV & Movies. I hope would love to see something like what Amazon has been doing with Twich Prime. If you have Amazon Prime you get D&D Beyond. Its part of the Amazon Prime family. Adding value to my Amazon prime as well as encouraging Non Amazon Prime members to either Sub up or join the Big "A" family for all of the extra benefits it comes with.
The Big "A" and the Big "N" sound like sound plans to base your subscription fees off of as a start. But honestly I hope that is where you set the celling and then begin to ask yourself how far back an we peel it from these two. After all the big "A" costs me less than ten bucks a month but will provide me with WAY more value than this service will even though I run games three times a week. Amazon gives me free shipping access to millions of books that if I buy them as well as TV & Movies. I hope would love to see something like what Amazon has been doing with Twich Prime. If you have Amazon Prime you get D&D Beyond. Its part of the Amazon Prime family. Adding value to my Amazon prime as well as encouraging Non Amazon Prime members to either Sub up or join the Big "A" family for all of the extra benefits it comes with.
My reference to other companies' subscription models was focused on the idea that they introduced a price and continue to add more and more value on top of that price over time.
I remember thinking one day "Wait, I get how much music that I can listen to anytime I want...for no additional cost?" That's the concept I'm talking about - definitely not comparing apples to apples in any other way.
We appreciate the feedback in this thread and look forward to sharing pricing details soon.
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I'm pretty open to different pay models. It all comes down to what you get for what you pay. If it's worth it, I'll pay. I'm just getting into 5e so I haven't sunk much money into books or anything else. I hope they don't make it too expensive to appeal to hardcore veteran players and DMs, the kind of people who would be most likely to have already spent a ton of money on 5e and just happen to be the most likely to use DnD Beyond.
I understand and agree with your point. But what you are missing is that the content overlaps, the developers must find a price point or a compromise to get people to adopt the online version if they also have the version in book form.
If the price is too high I'll just use my books to get the same information, If the price is reasonable I'll use both, they will get more subscribers at the reasonable price.
If I have to repurchase books that I spent several hundred dollars on already, I'll just use the books.
It reminds me of "The Big Bang Theory" where they are developing an app and one person says "To make it profitable we'll have to charge $1million" and Raj replies "Yeah, but if we do an introductory cost of $500,000 we'll get way more people."
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
I would be willing to pay subscription fee. Even a high cost one, if it meant that I did not have to buy all my books again.
I'm willing to pay a subscription fee, but not a super high one.
I already own every book, I just picked up Yawning Portal an hour ago. When it comes to features I will use? I'll get millage from the Monsters index if I can customize them a lot for NPCs, and the Rules Compendium will be handy to prevent disputes at the table. I've been running 5e since the game launched and Haven't given out a single off the shelf magic item so I won't use that much though the reference could be useful. The spells list... I'm torn about because I've already bought all the spell cards from GaleForce and use a tablet app for reference for my NPCs. For my homebrew I've built a giant OneNote document with several thousand pages of monsters, magic items, and spells for reference. The homebrew system would have to be easy to add content too for me to migrate all that into it.
Also I have to consider the lifespan of DnDBeyond. Assuming its like DnDInsider and lives only for the length of 5e's lifespan that means I have probably 5 to 6 years of subscription fees... at amazon prime's price lets say that is $500. My DnD group meets once per month, for a 6 hour game, so that's roughly $1.30 per hour of game time on this resource. I'd prefer that lower but its actually quite good compared to something like going to the movies. Compared to Fantasy Grounds where the books cost roughly the same but remain digital with the inherent flaws there of and an included 3rd party software subscription is required per player rather than per group... the math for Fantasy Grounds comes out to around 2.30 per game hour making it a weaker investment.
Conversely I've bought every DnD book in print. At roughly $50 apiece I've invested around $500 in resources already and look to continue spending $30 per quarter on new books as they release over the next 5 to 6 years as well. This works out to be roughly $600, giving me a slightly higher $1.70 per entertainment hour, this time on physical resources. Physical resources are inherently a better investment because they have an inherent value that digital goods don't have. When DnD 6e comes out the physical books will continue to function even if DnD Beyond is shut down and if I want to switch editions, the books retain an inherent resale value to offset the expense of the new edition. Fiscally the physical books are a better investment for me and can justify their slightly higher cost.
In the end WotC's and Curse's best price point is one where I invest in both the physical books and the digital products. This maximizes their profit as they are receiving payment twice in one way shape or form. The initial overhead Curse invests in making the database and website will taper off eventually as the database is finished and the web-development transitions to upkeep, this will ultimately lead DnDBeyond to have a lower overhead cost than printing, warehousing, and shipping books. Thus it is natural for DnDBeyond to cost less than the physical books, particularly in light of the user's lack of ownership, lack of resale options, and limited lifespan. I'd personally like to see my entertainment hour value on DnDBeyond go closer to a dollar, instead of the 8.25 per month like amazon something like... 7.99 or even 6.99 in order to get me to both buy the physical books and subscribe to the digital resource.
Alternatively, a higher subscription/purchase price, with a discount for verified purchases of the physical resources would also help. For instance, If I subscribe to DnDBeyond and buy the physical books through amazon could I get an extra 15% off the amazon price? This would roughly drop the book cost to around 1.30 per entertainment hour giving me a similar overall expense without directly impacting DnDBeyond's price. Though of course it comes out of Amazon's profit and to a lesser extent WotC's profit margin, it does reward loyalty. And generally speaking the more you keep a player in the ecosystem the more likely they are to stay with the products they have. A buyer rewarded for loyalty is more likely to transition to DnD 6e's version of both print books and digital resources when they are available as well as buy additional products from either vendor over time. Brand loyalty and whatnot.
For everything d&d beyond has (and promises) would be worth some type of payment, if this was free to make an account but limited (like all the free books and maybe 3 character limit) that would be good.
I also will agree with everyone that there should be a way to get any book someone has physically here instead of having to buy it again.
I don't know where to put this so here it goes:
I came across this quote from BadEye in another thread-
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D&D Beyond FoundersI think the Netflix model is the best model. $10 a month and you get everything. Every new book that comes out and all the other features. The thing is that you get that constant stream of $10 from each subscriber some of those people who would have never bought the books but will check out the books because they are already paying anyway, and others will still buy the hard copy because they like having a physical copy. It would add a ton of value. Selling the digital books is a worse idea.
Selling the digital books is a worse idea than a subscription. First, it alienates customers who bought the physical books and feel as though they are being asked to pay again to get a digital copy. Second, fewer people will check out the books if they have to buy them but many more people would if they were part of their subscription and some of those may even decide to buy the physical book.
I think there has been fear in the past that this would result in fewer people buying the books but you have to take into account that not everyone buys every book and some players buy no books or only the player's handbook. Sure some people will choose not to buy a physical copy if they are subscribers but you are getting $10 a month from them anyway. Also, this will help retain subscribers because they know that if they cancel their subscription they lose access to not just the tools that can be found elsewhere but to all the book content.
This has worked with comic books with Marvel Unlimited and again with Netflix.
My worry is that fear of a changing business model will make Hasbro hamstring this project. There is a ton of potential here. Come on, this is the day and age where every company wants to be a "service" for a monthly fee. Look at MS Office and Photoshop. They don't want to sell people software anymore. They want people to subscribe for a low monthly fee.
If you want people to subscribe then there needs to be a ton of value.
I certainly don't take it as snarky, and thanks for the reply. Hopefully my fears are unfounded (I certainly admit that they are not specifically informed). That doesn't mean I won't push back a little, but I promise I do so in good faith.
One thing I should clarify, I wrote a bunch of criticisms in there that I expect will be made, but I don't believe they're actually correct. Calling it a glorified drop-down menu and such, that's not my actual opinion, I should have put that in scare quotes. I understand it's a gross oversimplification and not a fair assessment of the product, I only said it because it's a narrative I already see forming on reddit and elsewhere. I don't want that narrative to dominate after launch. My fear is that if the feature set at launch is perceived as limited with promises for more, it creates an opportunity for that narrative to take hold while everyone waits for full features. I mean, you've got a sizeable number of people balking at requiring a twitch account; criticism doesn't have to be really fair to dominate a narrative in a community as tiny as this one. Perception is as important as reality, and you've got to manage customer expectations early or the perception might kill enthusiasm, is really my entire point.
Not at all! I assume, based on that quote, that what you launch with will not be able to replace an encounter builder app, an initiative tracker app, a combat tracker app, or a dice roller app. Price has nothing to do with it. If that is the case (and you know better than I), then people will still be using a slew of third-party applications to help manage their D&D games, and you're asking them to swap out a few of them for yours, with the promise of more to come. All I'm saying is that there will be a good number of potential customers who will see that and turn away, perhaps intending to wait for a full feature set, or perhaps waiting to see if it's vaporware like DungeonScape. Meanwhile, the "incomplete" "day late and a dollar short" narrative gains traction, and it is that much harder to get to a critical mass of users because the initial word of mouth was so mixed. An early perception could set in which then creates its own reality.
I didn't mean financially, I meant with their IP. If Wizards decides to take their licensing ball and go home, more investors won't really save the project. Now, with that kind of financial support, Wizards may not care about the size of the user-base initially, and obviously ending whatever agreement has been signed is not an endeavor to be taken lightly anyway, but I'm a lawyer by training and that means I plan for the worst-case scenario. I've seen companies back promising endeavors like this with their IP, get disappointed by the fickle RPG crowd's response, and then walk away, killing a product just a few years after launch, even though development and product launch were relatively smooth.
Neither of those companies was entering a cottage industry already brimming with third-party apps that duplicate at least the core of their functionality. The amount that can be learned from their example may be limited. Those companies were some of the first on the scene of their respective business models, and the barriers to entry were high enough that third-party competitors were relatively few and could not compete much on price (not legally, at least). Though if you're aiming to be as high-value in terms of features for price as those two companies are, that is very exciting indeed: they are killer values, but they also rely on economies of scale to keep those subscription prices low (and they have both raised prices in the last couple years, and that first one has had persistent concerns about its stock value for a while now). DDB might not have that option. Then again, DDB's marginal cost won't be nearly as high, either, and with sufficient investment to cover the initial fixed costs and the group of likely companies already committing some of those resources, then yeah, that kind of value proposition is definitely doable.
Again, I'm saying all of this in good faith, if uninformed good faith (then again this thread is asking for feedback on a completely imagined pricing model for a mostly imagined product, so uninformed good faith is the rule rather than the exception around here), and I admit I am sometimes speculating as to a worst-case scenario. But given what happened to 4E's digital toolset production, we ought not rule out some worst-case scenarios (though my understanding is that that product was probably profitable; the worst-case scenario was quite unrelated to that, it just turned their roadmap of future features into vaporware). I'm glad to hear you're thinking about and planning for a successful launch. I won't keep dragging this out, since it's not squarely within the topic of the thread and was not really invited. Thanks for the chat.
I understand the need of a payment model, because if they give for free all the content of the books for free nobody will bought more books.
But for everyone who already bought the books it's abusive to pay again (or worst, pay again every month) for the same content. Some options:
- A free option, with ads and some 'advanced' tools blocked like characters slots (so you can create them but not save them), homebrew rules, DM tools and books like Volos, SCAG...
- A free option only with the SRD but no ads, micropayments for the books (cheap price, like $10-15) and tools
- I don't know if exists some way to proof we already bought the books, some editorials give for free the PDF with the books. But sure, with a unique code inside them, not possible for who already bought the books but a suggestion for next prints.
D&D Beyond Mobile Alpha Tester
There is no way for them to know who bought the books and who didn't (up to this point). I think there will be some kind of monthly fee it is just a matter of how much and what is included in that. It will not be free and add supported (I would be shocked). I doubt it will be a one-time payment system or micro-transactions as that does not tend to be cost effective to support an ongoing online infrastructure. It will be interesting to see what the pricing model will be and how much.
I don't think Hasbro/WotC and Twitch/Curse have any problems to keep the DBs, servers and network infrastructure needed for DDB with their incomings. And I'm sorry, DDB is very nice and I'm sure it will be better, but It's not comparable to Netflix. And speaking of Netflix, it's probably the most valuable subscription right now, but I don't pay it for it's services and I will not. Why not compare it with Spotify? Yeah, right, it's free with a premium subscription for who wants it. Or Steam (pay for the games, some free, and with huge discounts)? And I'm sure series, movies, music and videogames require much more network, hardware and DBs maitenance.
All companies right now want a have a service with a monthly fee, sure, all companies want make money. But it's enough, we must to pay $10/month for every service a company want to create and sell us?
And last but not less, if DDB will be a subscription model with all the official content (including campaign sets, adventures, etc.) why I have to pay for all of it content monthly if I only want quick access to the core (PHB, MM and DMG)? This is not about how much and what they include or the quality of the web/app, it's about how much and what every one of us need and will use and find the balance between the companies and the customers interest. And there are many different profiles of costumers. So ok, a monthly fee it's clearly an option for who want everything and constant new content (Netflix model), but there must be more payment options for who seek less content/tools.
D&D Beyond Mobile Alpha Tester
In a move my books got lost and after 6 months of looking for them I had no luck and had to purchase them again, paying for them a third time is just not going to happen for me unless this site really exceeds expectations. Right now I'm going to say I'd rather have a way to "activate" my books on the site and have options to maybe buy new ones as they come out. As the beta grows I might change my mind but in phase 1, I wouldn't pay for it.
"The Best Status Effect Is Death" WebDM
I wouldn't mind paying again, as long as it's only a few bucks. I just started playing D&D, so I already bought the books and I am not willing to rebuy them all again at the standard price. If it were like $5 for the app, and maybe ~1$ for additional content that comes out (like Volo's Guide), I would have no problem buying the app. As for a subscription....I don't see the point of that. Maybe if the content constantly changed, but how many times has it seriously changed since the first release of D&D? I don't want to seriously have to spend another ~$100 for content I already physically own.
I just can't see how this can be released in any other format than a single purchase with in app transactions when new content comes out that someone is willing to pay for.
I'd be comfortable paying a subscription fee of 15$ a month with a reasonably priced options to buy PDFs some where between 25$ to 30$
If possible future paper books come with a digital copy code.
But what can they honestly offer that's worth $15 a month?
The Big "A" and the Big "N" sound like sound plans to base your subscription fees off of as a start. But honestly I hope that is where you set the celling and then begin to ask yourself how far back an we peel it from these two. After all the big "A" costs me less than ten bucks a month but will provide me with WAY more value than this service will even though I run games three times a week. Amazon gives me free shipping access to millions of books that if I buy them as well as TV & Movies. I hope would love to see something like what Amazon has been doing with Twich Prime. If you have Amazon Prime you get D&D Beyond. Its part of the Amazon Prime family. Adding value to my Amazon prime as well as encouraging Non Amazon Prime members to either Sub up or join the Big "A" family for all of the extra benefits it comes with.
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D&D Beyond Founders