I hope we'll get a new edition, because I love seeing all the new cool content and intriguing mechanics, and thinking of how I can make a character and play with these new rules. Just because something is good doesn't mean it can't be better, and D&D wouldn't even exist if people hadn't decided to build off and change previous ideas, games, and concepts (ie. Chainmail).
When 1DD releases, anyone who already has the books will still be able to continue playing 5e. I am hopeful and somewhat confident that the next edition will be awesome because we the community are helping build it, but I'm sure that people who want to play older versions of the game will still be able to do so, whether or not it is due to pirated content or having found a group with books from 5e.
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BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
Non-Weapon Proficiencies were introduced in AD&D (1e) in the Wilderness Survival Guide and Dungeoneer's Survival guide, adding a skill system.
And any table I have been at still roleplays the results of any roll.
Edit: By the way, even if you have an issue with social skills being skills (which is not new... many DM's 'back in the day' treated character Charisma stats as non-existent too), there are a lot of skills that are not social skills.
Non-weapon proficiencies were indeed introduced in to 1e with some of the later books. Oriental Adventures was the first to include them. But those two books you mentioned added more. (I've a copy of the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and it's a worthwhile read for anyone who wants to get caves and caverns right and make the things eerie.) Was practically spelled out for players that each and every character ought to be proficient in things other than weapons. A strange proposal for a game supposedly just about hacking and slashing one's way through dungeons. They would enter the core rule books with 2e. Were for the most part occupational in nature and despite their being some overlap (Heraldry / History, Singing or Dancing / Performance) were not at all comparable to the current skill list or current skill system. Agriculture? Carpentry? Seamstress/Tailor? I even remember having had an elf ranger who was a cobbler by trade!
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INSPIRATIONS:Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
The occupational skills are moved over to tools in 5e. Backgrounds cover a lot, as well.
And, to me, every edition of the game has supported RP. How individual tables play is up to those tables. If it seems like there is more hack and slash now, that is not because the rules encourage that but rather that being the kind of campaigns being run.
Backgrounds was a good addition to the game!
I'd say having characters who are nigh invulnerable (hit point bloat, death saves, and long rest regenerative superpowers) and a ton of spells that do damage and only differ in how they are described very much sets the game up for more of a combat focus.
Gone are the days when the rules discouraged combat because there was every chance you were going to die.
This is what Gary Gygax said of 3e/3.5e:
"The new D&D is too rule intensive. It's relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game. It's done away with the archetypes, focused on nothing but combat and character power ..."
This was in 2004. And he had already identified how the game had become more one to simulate teams of comic-book superheroes than the sorts of veryhuman at times at odds characters inhabiting the worlds of fantasy that had inspired the game.
You are right that it is ultimately up to tables how they play and that is after all the ultimate charm of the game.
Whatever the edition and dependent on table campaigns might be more about obtaining gold (that in turn used to spell XP) and glory (and with it retainers and strongholds), forging alliances, managing guilds and households, or even romance as much as it is about adventure. But I'm yet to see from anyone who gets defensive about what 5e could handle as well as any other edition give an example of a story arc in a game they play or have played to suggest they're playing anything but fantasy X-Men. About the only "downtime" activity even I ever see mentioned is shopping for things required for the next round of this, that, then the big bad evil guy.
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INSPIRATIONS:Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
Again, table mileage will vary. Any table that wants a lethal campaign can have one just as easily in 5e as in any other edition.
Also, this is a game. Entertainment. If it is more important that the DM feel they are the master of the players than entertaining the players, not sure how many would want to play at that table.
Again, had no problems running or playing in the equivalent of fantasy X Men even back in the 1e days (although Champions was my Super Hero genre preference) or the complete opposite, low fantasy.
And I run both styles in 5e, too, depending on the players.
Master of the game. As in a game that is more rulings than rules and not having the DM become someone who just sits there and narrates.
I can't imagine fantasy X-Men surviving AD&D or Basic and Expert provided their lethality.
And I'm still to see an example of a story arc in a game someone plays or has played suggesting they're playing anything but.
People get very defensive about their preferred editions. That has always been the case. But just saying it can do something—and it can—or that you use it to do this—and you might—isn't going to convince me most aren't playing fantasy X-Men. To begin play already more powerful that any given class's old-school equivalent and for it to only take a few levels before you're practically superhuman has set it up for that trend.
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INSPIRATIONS:Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
I hope we'll get a new edition, because I love seeing all the new cool content and intriguing mechanics, and thinking of how I can make a character and play with these new rules. Just because something is good doesn't mean it can't be better, and D&D wouldn't even exist if people hadn't decided to build off and change previous ideas, games, and concepts (ie. Chainmail).
When 1DD releases, anyone who already has the books will still be able to continue playing 5e. I am hopeful and somewhat confident that the next edition will be awesome because we the community are helping build it, but I'm sure that people who want to play older versions of the game will still be able to do so, whether or not it is due to pirated content or having found a group with books from 5e.
I'll add to this that now that 5e is in Creative Commons, we'll get all kinds of content to mix and match. Some folks will prefer to stick with 5e, some will move on to 1DnD, some will give Black Flag a try... personally I expect my group to mix and match our favorite parts of all of the above and more besides.
Right Psy - but people have been mixing and matching and modifying forever - it’s called homebrew. That’s really part of my point, very few play an absolutely stock/pristine Xe game. Essentially all of us play our own modified game drawing from older rule sets and other games we played like champions (my favorite superhero rule set too. I’m really not surprised that DnD is combat oriented - my understanding is that Gygax was a war gamer and they decided to see how their games played out if they added magic to the mix so they already had combat rules and didn’t have a lot of roleplay initially. It’s really us players that added the roleplay component. Yes the 2-3 transfer was more problematic than the 1-2 transition but it wasn’t close to the problems of 3.5 to 4e transition. Of course each table’s experiences are/were different so YMMV. Yes some folks left the game entirely with each edition change, yes some folks stayed with the earlier edition or sought other rule sets but each time (except 4e) the game grew so they must be doing something right with 5e and maybe with the 1D&D playtests and hopefully with what ever they call the next iteration.
I think it needs to be realized/admitted that a new edition is a "need" for most products from most companies -- D&D is no exception. We see this with phones, cars, televisions, furniture, clothes, etc. Manufacturers don't simply make the same product over and over again. They update it to attract new business. For WotC, there comes a time when splat books don't bring in the revenue required to make a profit. A new edition revitalizes things. IMO, if OneD&D is going to be as "backward compatible" as they claim, then WotC is doing this update with a lot of smarts. We get to keep old the old splats and adventures with only minor tweaking to mechanics.
I think both of you are talking past one another, not to one another.
Might I suggest taking a break? A thread insisting there shouldn't be another edition of the game, when one is currently being play-tested, inherently has a toxic atmosphere.
To be fair, I made this thread years before D&DOne was announced. The only reason I revived this topic was to point out the accuracy of predictions that were made earlier regarding D&DOne.
Right Psy - but people have been mixing and matching and modifying forever - it’s called homebrew. That’s really part of my point, very few play an absolutely stock/pristine Xe game. Essentially all of us play our own modified game drawing from older rule sets and other games we played like champions (my favorite superhero rule set too. I’m really not surprised that DnD is combat oriented - my understanding is that Gygax was a war gamer and they decided to see how their games played out if they added magic to the mix so they already had combat rules and didn’t have a lot of roleplay initially. It’s really us players that added the roleplay component. Yes the 2-3 transfer was more problematic than the 1-2 transition but it wasn’t close to the problems of 3.5 to 4e transition. Of course each table’s experiences are/were different so YMMV. Yes some folks left the game entirely with each edition change, yes some folks stayed with the earlier edition or sought other rule sets but each time (except 4e) the game grew so they must be doing something right with 5e and maybe with the 1D&D playtests and hopefully with what ever they call the next iteration.
That's right, we do. Sounds like the thread's premise/thesis is bunk then. Whether they make a 6e or not, very few people would write off everything that came before anyway, so the 5e- material-only stans will still be able to find games.
They've announced that the new changes will just be "revised 5e" or that's what they're calling it.
They announced that in August last year when they told everybody about One. People just didn't listen.
One might argue they’re still not listening. No one here, just the zeitgeist.
Yeah, to be fair the game press for what it is doesn't sit around staring at D&D Beyond threads 24/7 (which is a good thing). They're also competing for attention with a content creator/influencer space who just returned from a junket with the "latest word". A lot of that latest word being largely recycled is lost on folks reporting "news."
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
WotC said, in response to asking if one dnd was just 6e, “It’s bigger than that. One D&D will usher in the next generation of D&D with new and more comprehensive versions of the core rulebooks that millions of players have enjoyed for the past decade. The rules will be backward compatible with fifth edition adventures and supplements and offer players and Dungeon Masters new options and opportunities for adventure. The evolution of fifth edition has shown us it’s less important to create new editions of the game and more important to grow and expand the game you love with each new product.”
Let's just call it 5th Ed. Revised. I'd be satisfied with that. In the academic world, revisions happen all the time. They even happen, albeit more rarely, in the entertainment world. Tolkein revised his stuff over time.
Let's just call it 5th Ed. Revised. I'd be satisfied with that. In the academic world, revisions happen all the time. They even happen, albeit more rarely, in the entertainment world. Tolkein revised his stuff over time.
I hope we'll get a new edition, because I love seeing all the new cool content and intriguing mechanics, and thinking of how I can make a character and play with these new rules. Just because something is good doesn't mean it can't be better, and D&D wouldn't even exist if people hadn't decided to build off and change previous ideas, games, and concepts (ie. Chainmail).
When 1DD releases, anyone who already has the books will still be able to continue playing 5e. I am hopeful and somewhat confident that the next edition will be awesome because we the community are helping build it, but I'm sure that people who want to play older versions of the game will still be able to do so, whether or not it is due to pirated content or having found a group with books from 5e.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Non-weapon proficiencies were indeed introduced in to 1e with some of the later books. Oriental Adventures was the first to include them. But those two books you mentioned added more. (I've a copy of the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and it's a worthwhile read for anyone who wants to get caves and caverns right and make the things eerie.) Was practically spelled out for players that each and every character ought to be proficient in things other than weapons. A strange proposal for a game supposedly just about hacking and slashing one's way through dungeons. They would enter the core rule books with 2e. Were for the most part occupational in nature and despite their being some overlap (Heraldry / History, Singing or Dancing / Performance) were not at all comparable to the current skill list or current skill system. Agriculture? Carpentry? Seamstress/Tailor? I even remember having had an elf ranger who was a cobbler by trade!
INSPIRATIONS: Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
SYSTEMS: ShadowDark, C&C, AD&D.
GEAR: pencils, graph paper, dice.
Backgrounds was a good addition to the game!
I'd say having characters who are nigh invulnerable (hit point bloat, death saves, and long rest regenerative superpowers) and a ton of spells that do damage and only differ in how they are described very much sets the game up for more of a combat focus.
Gone are the days when the rules discouraged combat because there was every chance you were going to die.
This is what Gary Gygax said of 3e/3.5e:
"The new D&D is too rule intensive. It's relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game. It's done away with the archetypes, focused on nothing but combat and character power ..."
This was in 2004. And he had already identified how the game had become more one to simulate teams of comic-book superheroes than the sorts of very human at times at odds characters inhabiting the worlds of fantasy that had inspired the game.
You are right that it is ultimately up to tables how they play and that is after all the ultimate charm of the game.
Whatever the edition and dependent on table campaigns might be more about obtaining gold (that in turn used to spell XP) and glory (and with it retainers and strongholds), forging alliances, managing guilds and households, or even romance as much as it is about adventure. But I'm yet to see from anyone who gets defensive about what 5e could handle as well as any other edition give an example of a story arc in a game they play or have played to suggest they're playing anything but fantasy X-Men. About the only "downtime" activity even I ever see mentioned is shopping for things required for the next round of this, that, then the big bad evil guy.
INSPIRATIONS: Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
SYSTEMS: ShadowDark, C&C, AD&D.
GEAR: pencils, graph paper, dice.
Master of the game. As in a game that is more rulings than rules and not having the DM become someone who just sits there and narrates.
I can't imagine fantasy X-Men surviving AD&D or Basic and Expert provided their lethality.
And I'm still to see an example of a story arc in a game someone plays or has played suggesting they're playing anything but.
People get very defensive about their preferred editions. That has always been the case. But just saying it can do something—and it can—or that you use it to do this—and you might—isn't going to convince me most aren't playing fantasy X-Men. To begin play already more powerful that any given class's old-school equivalent and for it to only take a few levels before you're practically superhuman has set it up for that trend.
INSPIRATIONS: Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
SYSTEMS: ShadowDark, C&C, AD&D.
GEAR: pencils, graph paper, dice.
I'll add to this that now that 5e is in Creative Commons, we'll get all kinds of content to mix and match. Some folks will prefer to stick with 5e, some will move on to 1DnD, some will give Black Flag a try... personally I expect my group to mix and match our favorite parts of all of the above and more besides.
Right Psy - but people have been mixing and matching and modifying forever - it’s called homebrew. That’s really part of my point, very few play an absolutely stock/pristine Xe game. Essentially all of us play our own modified game drawing from older rule sets and other games we played like champions (my favorite superhero rule set too. I’m really not surprised that DnD is combat oriented - my understanding is that Gygax was a war gamer and they decided to see how their games played out if they added magic to the mix so they already had combat rules and didn’t have a lot of roleplay initially. It’s really us players that added the roleplay component. Yes the 2-3 transfer was more problematic than the 1-2 transition but it wasn’t close to the problems of 3.5 to 4e transition. Of course each table’s experiences are/were different so YMMV. Yes some folks left the game entirely with each edition change, yes some folks stayed with the earlier edition or sought other rule sets but each time (except 4e) the game grew so they must be doing something right with 5e and maybe with the 1D&D playtests and hopefully with what ever they call the next iteration.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I think it needs to be realized/admitted that a new edition is a "need" for most products from most companies -- D&D is no exception. We see this with phones, cars, televisions, furniture, clothes, etc. Manufacturers don't simply make the same product over and over again. They update it to attract new business. For WotC, there comes a time when splat books don't bring in the revenue required to make a profit. A new edition revitalizes things. IMO, if OneD&D is going to be as "backward compatible" as they claim, then WotC is doing this update with a lot of smarts. We get to keep old the old splats and adventures with only minor tweaking to mechanics.
C. Foster Payne
"If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence, try orderin' somebody else's dog around."
To be fair, I made this thread years before D&DOne was announced. The only reason I revived this topic was to point out the accuracy of predictions that were made earlier regarding D&DOne.
That's right, we do. Sounds like the thread's premise/thesis is bunk then. Whether they make a 6e or not, very few people would write off everything that came before anyway, so the 5e- material-only stans will still be able to find games.
They've announced that the new changes will just be "revised 5e" or that's what they're calling it.
They announced that in August last year when they told everybody about One. People just didn't listen.
Please do not contact or message me.
Oh, I hadn't realized that. Even the news outlets that covered this seemed to be surprised by the announcement, I figured this was new.
One might argue they’re still not listening. No one here, just the zeitgeist.
Yeah, to be fair the game press for what it is doesn't sit around staring at D&D Beyond threads 24/7 (which is a good thing). They're also competing for attention with a content creator/influencer space who just returned from a junket with the "latest word". A lot of that latest word being largely recycled is lost on folks reporting "news."
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
WotC said, in response to asking if one dnd was just 6e, “It’s bigger than that. One D&D will usher in the next generation of D&D with new and more comprehensive versions of the core rulebooks that millions of players have enjoyed for the past decade. The rules will be backward compatible with fifth edition adventures and supplements and offer players and Dungeon Masters new options and opportunities for adventure. The evolution of fifth edition has shown us it’s less important to create new editions of the game and more important to grow and expand the game you love with each new product.”
They also said, “Our goal is for you to keep enjoying the content you already have and make it even better.”
Let's just call it 5th Ed. Revised. I'd be satisfied with that. In the academic world, revisions happen all the time. They even happen, albeit more rarely, in the entertainment world. Tolkein revised his stuff over time.
C. Foster Payne
"If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence, try orderin' somebody else's dog around."
You’re smart.
I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not...
C. Foster Payne
"If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence, try orderin' somebody else's dog around."
No, it’s not sarcasm. WotC sometimes doesn’t even change UA when they release it in a sourcebook.