A feature swap: Mage Armor instead of both Medium Armor and Heavy Armor. Which is a wash. (The Mage Armor is a bit better, but the difference is nonsignificant.)
It’s not a wash, as I explained repeatedly already. Dex based Fighters don’t really care about losing out on medium armour, and certainly not about heavy armour.
A Dex Fighter getting this Fighting Style, starting with a +3 bonus, will equal the AC of every armour he has access to but half plate, at no financial cost, without Stealth disadvantage, and without having to carry the weight of armour. When he increases that Dex bonus to +4 he’ll have the best AC value he could get from non-magical armour, when it goes to +5 he’ll exceed that. This is already better than a wash and it doesn’t even include the Int to AC change you left out. Throw in Int to AC and becomes already the best Fighting Style bar none for a Fighter with arcane abilities.
Again, swapping out features a character doesn’t care for has no value. It’s not a balanced way to pay for something they very much do care for.
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In sum, where a Fighting Style can be worth an entire feat, two cantrips is only worth half of a feat, and is worth drastically less than a Fighting Style. (To be fair, some other Fighting Styles are similarly less worthy).
With regard to the Force Armor Fighting Style.
• Mage Armor as a feature swap is a wash and is balanced.
• Two cantrips (Elf Sword and choice) is worth half of a fighting style. The remaining half of the design space can pay for any imaginary paranoia regarding the Mage Armor.
Altogether, the Force Armor balances solidly for a Fighting Style, and is even subpar.
Proposed Fighting Style: Really, Really, Really Good Archery. By taking this style, you give up class-based proficiency with medium armour, heavy armour and all martial weapons but gain the benefits of the regular Archery Fighting Style and the Sharpshooter feat. All those proficiencies must surely be worth more than a feat according to the logic in this thread, so clearly this must be balanced, right?
The Players Handbook with Magic Initiate represents the uncertainty of the designers when the 5e gaming engine first came out.
Tashas represents many years later, when designers have a better sense of what things are actually worth, after many years of many players "out in the wild" using these things.
I still feel that Tashas assessing cantrips as worth 2 points out of 8, is overly expensive, but perhaps some cantrips are worth 2 points. So counting two cantrips as a halffeat is fine.
Relatedly,
Xanathars treats a level 2 spell per short rest as worth a halffeat. (Fey Teleportation grants Misty Step per short rest.) I feel this at 4 points is accurate and desirable.
However, Tashas treats a level 2 spell per long rest as worth about, say, 2.5 points along with a level 1 spell per long rest worth 1.5 points, together being a halffeat. (Fey Touched grants Misty Step and a level-1 enchantment spell, each per long rest). I feel this is less desirable. But it seems tolerable. Where a halffeat should be about 4 points, here Tashas has about 2 points plus 1 point, totaling 3 points.
As such, the Magic Initiate in the Players Handbook is actually worth something like 6 points at most, where a feat should be about 8 points.
Keep in mind, the Players Handbook feats are wildly unequal in value. So caution is necessary when using them as a measure for other feats.
What is still a major issue is that your fighting style is still substantially better than every other fighting style. You never answered my question. Do you really think your fighting style is comparable in power to druiduc warrior or any of the other fighting styles currently in the game?
Essentially, the Fighting Style is two separate units.
• A feature swap: Mage Armor instead of both Medium Armor and Heavy Armor. Which is a wash. (The Mage Armor is a bit better, but the difference is nonsignificant.)
• The fighting style itself. The fighting style itself should be worth about a feat. Two cantrips is considered as if two halffeats, but is less good compared to other feats.
Part of the problem with fighting styles is, some really are worth a feat (Archery) and some are worthless (Great Weapon Fighting). Some are somewhere in between, being less good than a feat, but serviceable and flavorful.
Two cantrips for a fighting style has less value than a feat.
Compare this to other fighting styles, not feats. I realize that you can now take fighting styles as a feat but this is not a fair comparison. Fighting styles are not feats. Is Archery as good as Sharpshooter? Great Weapon Master as good as Great Weapon Fighting? Also, your feat rating system doesn't actually work because not all feats are created equal. That might not be great design, but it's how it is. The closest feat to your proposed fighting style is Magic Initiate. However, your fighting style is still better than Magic Initiate because it gives a spell at will instead of just once per long rest. As someone mentioned, giving up something you don't actually care about is not a real swap so that doesn't really balance it out.
Druidic Warrior, a literal in game Fighting Style, gives 2 cantrips from the Druid spell list and nothing else. Your fighting style gives 2 cantrips from ANY spell list. If it did nothing else, your fighting style is already better than the closest comparable fighting style. But that's not all you get! You get at will mage armor and Int for AC. You admit that is also better than what you're giving up in Medium and Heavy armor. This is not balanced against other Fighting styles and it's not close.
I get and appreciate what you're trying to do but you need to do this with more than just a fighting style.
Here is my proposal and something I think is a more balanced approach that does what you want.
Magic Warrior Fighting Style
You gain 2 cantrips from the Wizard spell list. One of them can be your homebrew Elf Sword cantrip.It's better than Druidic Fighter because Elf Sword uses a longsword but also because you can grab booming blade. Those two work together making this a much better fighting style but whatever.
Magical DefenseFeat
You learn the Mage Armor spell and can cast it at will. Removing the bit about a reaction. The armor gained from Mage Armor is equal to your spell casting modifier (minimum 3). This is different than what you're proposing but I think it's more worthy of a feat. You can still dump dex if you want or you can put some points there and increase your overall AC. You don't give up anything but it doesn't matter as you're not going to be using any armor with Mage Armor anyway. Best case scenario, this is a 2 point bump to AC although it could go higher if your max Int increases. I think this is a balanced feat but if you don't, you could give it +1 Intelligence too. If you did that, I'd recommend changing it to one free mage armor cast per long rest.
I think this is at least a step in the right direction.
Each Fighting Style should be worth a feat. Tashas views a Fighting Style as worth a feat.
No, it doesn't. It let's you take a feat to get a fighting style but it does not change the fighting styles to make them any better. If Tasha's said that the value of a fighting style should be a feat, or if they buffed up fighting styles, I'd agree with you. Tasha's did neither of those things. They made a feat that gives a fighting style because it is often better for classes that don't get a fighting style to grab the feat rather than to take a fighter dip. It's been pointed out dozens of times by multiple people that your fighting style is better than any other fighting style and better than comparable feats. Despite that, you refuse to listen to everyone else in this thread when they critique your fighting style. You're grasping at straws trying to justify how much better your fighting style is compared to every other fighting style. You argue it should be as good as a feat despite no other fighting style being even remotely as good as what you're suggesting. If you're interested in feedback you've got it from currently 5+ pages worth of posts.
Each Fighting Style should be worth a feat. Tashas views a Fighting Style as worth a feat.
No, Tasha's views a feat worth a fighting style to a class that does not have fighting styles. That is not equivalent worth to a class that gets additional fighting styles over the course of their levels. Plus there is no option in Tasha's to trade out a fighting style of any feat you wish. Why would anyone take a mere +2 to hit with a bow over Sharpshooter?
I've said several times now that there is no value equivalence between abilities you get and give up an ASI or whatever for, and abilities you'd trade out for something you want more. It doesn't work that way. Good luck getting this through, I obviously couldn't.
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Using INT for attacks and AC seems super arbitrary to me. I'd expect to see that on a dedicated spellcasting class, not a fighter. Why not let fighters make spell attacks using strength and dexterity as if they were weapon attacks, and give them a +1 AC bonus when using mage armor to match the benefits of Defense Fighting Style?
Using INT for attacks and AC seems super arbitrary to me. I'd expect to see that on a dedicated spellcasting class, not a fighter. Why not let fighters make spell attacks using strength and dexterity as if they were weapon attacks, and give them a +1 AC bonus when using mage armor to match the benefits of Defense Fighting Style?
True, the Jedi that seems to be basis for this class had some intensive physical conditioning on top of the meditation. I think the leaps and bounds Jedi were capable of were not so much telekinesis (thought they have that too) but a physical awareness and facility with the force through the body. For Star Wars Force users I'd actually go with Wisdom for Jedi as the basis for some of the high flying stuff, Charisma for Sith (letting go vs force of will, dark side is more seductive after all).
Ironically Gvarayi's effort to Force the Force or something like it into their game has led to similar balance issues actual Star Wars role players games have had to contend with when incorporating force users.
I think Gvarayi has a very rich world going on or pending for their game (see their essay on obsidian and sky color tones for Drow and High Elves). There's some need in their game for this power set. It's clearly OP by I believe all commentators' POV; but maybe it works in their world where certain character types are clearly more developed and fleshed out. Or it's overdeveloped and their players will break the world or depart from it. I'm done from this thread either, nothing personal, but it's clear Gvarayi's intent here was more for exhibition and not workshopping, and that's fine. Since it's looks like we're entering into generation 2 of feedback with a new round of comments reiterating or picking up where original criticisms left off, I'm going to bow out of this too, but will probably take up Gvariyi in their other thread about colors. It sounds like a cool world, but sometimes the rule of cool can't really be codified mechanically, it's why the rule of cool exists. Hope the other players not playing this class have fun too.
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The Xanathar Dragonborn feat, Dragon Hide exhibits a natural armor that grants AC 13 + Dex, if not wearing armor. This always-on natural armor that cannot stack with other armors is mechanically identical to an always-on (or at-will reaction) Mage Armor.
The Dragon Hide is part of a halffeat that also grants claws as natural weapons. These claws are better than a 1 point unarmed attack, but their 1d4 + Strength slashing damage is less useful than the other weapons that are normally available. I consider these claws as a ribbon ability, being flavorful but mechanically negligible in worth.
A normal feat aims to be worth about 8 points, and a halffeat about 4 points. Character optimizers dont view the Dragon Hide halffeat as powerful, and indeed it normally gets passed over for other feats, suggesting it might even be subpar compared to other feats. Possibly this halffeat is worth a total of 3 points. Where the claws are worth 1 point or less, the Dragon Hide itself seems worth about 3 or 4 points. In any case, the Dragon Hide is worth about a half feat, even if slightly less. The main problem is, this halffeat is a wash in most situations where the character already has other armors and weapons readily available, thus making it difficult to justify the cost of a feat to simply swap flavor.
Comparing to the Dragon Hide, the at-will Mage Armor is equivalent to a halffeat or less.
Dragon Hide is a feat designed pre-Tasha's, so no moving around ability bonuses. Dragonborn get +2 Con / +1 Cha. For an Int-based caster, taking this race is a big tradeoff to make just to get Mage Armor for free, and that's with AC still being based on Dex. You are, as before, not taking the whole picture into account. I'm sure Dragon Hide is going to get a lot more popular in campaigns that allow custom lineages or origins (this kind of thing is half the reason none of that will be happening at my table).
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Regarding the Players Handbook, the consensus of character optimizers view the various armor feats as painfully subpar. For a Wizard to spend two halffeats to gain Medium Armor, isnt worth it.
In Reddit, there is a revision of the feats that are in the Players Handbook. It also tweaks some of the Xanathars feats. The new versions of feats balance well with each other, making each feat a comparable appealing choice. The assessment of the worth of feats generally is solid. A number of veteran character optimizers who have studied this revision, hold it in high regard as a balanced selection of feats.
It seems to me, the assessment uses Sharpshooter as the standard unit of measurement for the other feats. Sharpshooter is arguably the most powerful feat in the Players Handbook, and was immediately recognized as such by both exploiters and critics, when the Players Handbook came out. If I were doing the assessment, I would probably nerf Sharpshooter slightly to make it balance with many other feats. Then use that as the standard for all feats. Then again, the choice between an ability score improvement versus a feat should be a painful one. Ideally every feat should be a dilemma because both the feat and the ability feel equally desirable. Many DMs recommend the following feat assessment to give players a selection of good feats to choose from.
With regard to the armor feats in the Players Handbook, the assessment consolidates Lightly Armored, Moderately Armored, Medium Armor Master, into a single halffeat.
BASIC TRAINING Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You gain proficiency with light armor, medium armor, and shields.
Wearing medium armor doesn’t impose disadvantage on your Dexterity (Stealth) checks.
When you wear medium armor, you can add 3, rather than 2, to your AC if you have a Dexterity of 16 or higher.
What the Basic Training halffeat does is give any character an AC that is roughly equivalent to Mage Armor as a halffeat. During character creation, the halffeat can grant a chain shirt at AC 13 that Dex 16 can improve to AC 16, without a Stealth disadvantage. Actually for the same price in gold, the scale armor improves the AC to 14 with Dex 16 making 17. At higher levels, half plate armor (meaning cuirass plus limb guards but without any chain, somewhat resembling American football armor) is AC 15 with Dex 16 making AC 18, same as Mage Armor.
All of the various ways to achieve the same benefits as Mage Armor are considered to be worth about half of a feat.
Dragon Hide is a feat designed pre-Tasha's, so no moving around ability bonuses. Dragonborn get +2 Con / +1 Cha. For an Int-based caster, taking this race is a big tradeoff to make just to get Mage Armor for free, and that's with AC still being based on Dex. You are, as before, not taking the whole picture into account. I'm sure Dragon Hide is going to get a lot more popular in campaigns that allow custom lineages or origins (this kind of thing is half the reason none of that will be happening at my table).
I am precisely taking the entire 5e gaming system into account, and have always done so during this thread. It is some critics in this thread who have been distracted by paranoia, vague assertions, and complaints that a fresh innovative feature fails be exactly like an old feature. Thus it is the critics who have repeatedly suffered from the impulse to over-nerf. Whether overestimating the worth of Mage Armor or overestimating the worth of two cantrips, it is the critics who continually get it wrong. The critics fail to take the bigger picture into account, with how the Fighter class operates generally, with noting the difference between spells that do-versus-dont benefit from Intelligence, and with how mechanics like AC function generally within the scope of the 5e gaming engine.
1) Regarding the Players Handbook, the consensus of character optimizers view the various armor feats as painfully subpar. For a Wizard to spend two halffeats to gain Medium Armor, isnt worth it.
2) In Reddit, there is a revision of the feats that are in the Players Handbook. It also tweaks some of the Xanathars feats. The new versions of feats balance well with each other, making each feat a comparable appealing choice. The assessment of the worth of feats generally is solid. A number of veteran character optimizers who have studied this revision, hold it in high regard as a balanced selection of feats.
3) All of the various ways to achieve the same benefits as Mage Armor are considered to be worth about half of a feat.
1) Sure. Particularly since a single level in Artificer gives that and more, at the cost of delaying spell (not slot) progression by one level. That doesn't mean anything though.
2) I couldn't care less about reddit credentials, I have to be honest.
3) But you're not giving the same benefits as Mage Armor. You're giving Int-based Mage Armor. Moreover, and this is where we go back to the "doesn't mean anything" part of 1, why - if the armor feats are so painfully subpar - would giving up armor proficiencies (armor proficiencies you probably were never going to use even if you couldn't swap them out) even be worth half a feat?
All this mathing out the supposed worth of abilities is silly to begin with, as it presupposes the abilities involved are balanced the same way under all circumstances. Which is patently not the case.
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Dragon Hide is a feat designed pre-Tasha's, so no moving around ability bonuses. Dragonborn get +2 Con / +1 Cha. For an Int-based caster, taking this race is a big tradeoff to make just to get Mage Armor for free, and that's with AC still being based on Dex. You are, as before, not taking the whole picture into account. I'm sure Dragon Hide is going to get a lot more popular in campaigns that allow custom lineages or origins (this kind of thing is half the reason none of that will be happening at my table).
I am precisely taking the entire 5e gaming system into account, and have always done so during this thread. It is the critics who have been distracted by paranoia, vague assertions, and complaints that a fresh innovative feature fails be exactly like an old feature. Thus it is the critics who have repeatedly suffered from the impulse to over-nerf. Whether overestimating the worth of Mage Armor or overestimating the worth of two cantrips, it is the critics who continually get it wrong. The critics fail to take the bigger picture into account, with how the Fighter class operates generally, with noting the difference between spells that do-versus-dont benefit from Intelligence, and with how mechanics like AC function generally within the scope of the 5e gaming engine.
That's a lovely speech. 100% opinion, 0% argumentation, filled with ad hominems and appeals to emotion.
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That's a lovely speech. 100% opinion, 0% argumentation, filled with ad hominems and appeals to emotion.
Heh. At least you can see how it feels when people make paranoid vague assertions.
But seriously, no ad hominem. To say that a critic is failing to take the big picture into account (after you yourself made such a critique) is still about the mechanics not about a person.
In the big picture, Mage Armor and the various ways to get an AC equivalent to Mage Armor, are all comparable, and are modest in value. In the big picture, such AC ranging from 13 to 18 and depending on other opportunity costs, is worth about half of a feat.
It’s not a wash, as I explained repeatedly already. Dex based Fighters don’t really care about losing out on medium armour, and certainly not about heavy armour.
A Dex Fighter getting this Fighting Style, starting with a +3 bonus, will equal the AC of every armour he has access to but half plate, at no financial cost, without Stealth disadvantage, and without having to carry the weight of armour. When he increases that Dex bonus to +4 he’ll have the best AC value he could get from non-magical armour, when it goes to +5 he’ll exceed that. This is already better than a wash and it doesn’t even include the Int to AC change you left out. Throw in Int to AC and becomes already the best Fighting Style bar none for a Fighter with arcane abilities.
Again, swapping out features a character doesn’t care for has no value. It’s not a balanced way to pay for something they very much do care for.
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The following is how the designers assess a cantrip as worth about 1 fourth of a feat.
Halffeat: Two cantrips (Tashas: Telekinetic: Mage Hand cantrip plus something like a cantrip being a telekinetic push/pull)
Fullfeat: Fighting Style (Tashas: Fighting Initiate: choice of Fighter Fighting Style)
In sum, where a Fighting Style can be worth an entire feat, two cantrips is only worth half of a feat, and is worth drastically less than a Fighting Style. (To be fair, some other Fighting Styles are similarly less worthy).
With regard to the Force Armor Fighting Style.
• Mage Armor as a feature swap is a wash and is balanced.
• Two cantrips (Elf Sword and choice) is worth half of a fighting style. The remaining half of the design space can pay for any imaginary paranoia regarding the Mage Armor.
Altogether, the Force Armor balances solidly for a Fighting Style, and is even subpar.
he / him
Proposed Fighting Style: Really, Really, Really Good Archery. By taking this style, you give up class-based proficiency with medium armour, heavy armour and all martial weapons but gain the benefits of the regular Archery Fighting Style and the Sharpshooter feat. All those proficiencies must surely be worth more than a feat according to the logic in this thread, so clearly this must be balanced, right?
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Magic initiate gives two cantrips and a 1st level spell ot cast once per long rest.
This gives you that, but mage armor is unlimited. And then you get the intelligence AC bonus.
The Players Handbook with Magic Initiate represents the uncertainty of the designers when the 5e gaming engine first came out.
Tashas represents many years later, when designers have a better sense of what things are actually worth, after many years of many players "out in the wild" using these things.
I still feel that Tashas assessing cantrips as worth 2 points out of 8, is overly expensive, but perhaps some cantrips are worth 2 points. So counting two cantrips as a halffeat is fine.
Relatedly,
Xanathars treats a level 2 spell per short rest as worth a halffeat. (Fey Teleportation grants Misty Step per short rest.) I feel this at 4 points is accurate and desirable.
However, Tashas treats a level 2 spell per long rest as worth about, say, 2.5 points along with a level 1 spell per long rest worth 1.5 points, together being a halffeat. (Fey Touched grants Misty Step and a level-1 enchantment spell, each per long rest). I feel this is less desirable. But it seems tolerable. Where a halffeat should be about 4 points, here Tashas has about 2 points plus 1 point, totaling 3 points.
As such, the Magic Initiate in the Players Handbook is actually worth something like 6 points at most, where a feat should be about 8 points.
Keep in mind, the Players Handbook feats are wildly unequal in value. So caution is necessary when using them as a measure for other feats.
he / him
Compare this to other fighting styles, not feats. I realize that you can now take fighting styles as a feat but this is not a fair comparison. Fighting styles are not feats. Is Archery as good as Sharpshooter? Great Weapon Master as good as Great Weapon Fighting? Also, your feat rating system doesn't actually work because not all feats are created equal. That might not be great design, but it's how it is. The closest feat to your proposed fighting style is Magic Initiate. However, your fighting style is still better than Magic Initiate because it gives a spell at will instead of just once per long rest. As someone mentioned, giving up something you don't actually care about is not a real swap so that doesn't really balance it out.
Druidic Warrior, a literal in game Fighting Style, gives 2 cantrips from the Druid spell list and nothing else. Your fighting style gives 2 cantrips from ANY spell list. If it did nothing else, your fighting style is already better than the closest comparable fighting style. But that's not all you get! You get at will mage armor and Int for AC. You admit that is also better than what you're giving up in Medium and Heavy armor. This is not balanced against other Fighting styles and it's not close.
I get and appreciate what you're trying to do but you need to do this with more than just a fighting style.
Here is my proposal and something I think is a more balanced approach that does what you want.
I think this is at least a step in the right direction.
Each Fighting Style should be worth a feat. Tashas views a Fighting Style as worth a feat.
he / him
No, it doesn't. It let's you take a feat to get a fighting style but it does not change the fighting styles to make them any better. If Tasha's said that the value of a fighting style should be a feat, or if they buffed up fighting styles, I'd agree with you. Tasha's did neither of those things. They made a feat that gives a fighting style because it is often better for classes that don't get a fighting style to grab the feat rather than to take a fighter dip. It's been pointed out dozens of times by multiple people that your fighting style is better than any other fighting style and better than comparable feats. Despite that, you refuse to listen to everyone else in this thread when they critique your fighting style. You're grasping at straws trying to justify how much better your fighting style is compared to every other fighting style. You argue it should be as good as a feat despite no other fighting style being even remotely as good as what you're suggesting. If you're interested in feedback you've got it from currently 5+ pages worth of posts.
I've said several times now that there is no value equivalence between abilities you get and give up an ASI or whatever for, and abilities you'd trade out for something you want more. It doesn't work that way. Good luck getting this through, I obviously couldn't.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Using INT for attacks and AC seems super arbitrary to me. I'd expect to see that on a dedicated spellcasting class, not a fighter. Why not let fighters make spell attacks using strength and dexterity as if they were weapon attacks, and give them a +1 AC bonus when using mage armor to match the benefits of Defense Fighting Style?
The Forum Infestation (TM)
True, the Jedi that seems to be basis for this class had some intensive physical conditioning on top of the meditation. I think the leaps and bounds Jedi were capable of were not so much telekinesis (thought they have that too) but a physical awareness and facility with the force through the body. For Star Wars Force users I'd actually go with Wisdom for Jedi as the basis for some of the high flying stuff, Charisma for Sith (letting go vs force of will, dark side is more seductive after all).
Ironically Gvarayi's effort to Force the Force or something like it into their game has led to similar balance issues actual Star Wars role players games have had to contend with when incorporating force users.
I think Gvarayi has a very rich world going on or pending for their game (see their essay on obsidian and sky color tones for Drow and High Elves). There's some need in their game for this power set. It's clearly OP by I believe all commentators' POV; but maybe it works in their world where certain character types are clearly more developed and fleshed out. Or it's overdeveloped and their players will break the world or depart from it. I'm done from this thread either, nothing personal, but it's clear Gvarayi's intent here was more for exhibition and not workshopping, and that's fine. Since it's looks like we're entering into generation 2 of feedback with a new round of comments reiterating or picking up where original criticisms left off, I'm going to bow out of this too, but will probably take up Gvariyi in their other thread about colors. It sounds like a cool world, but sometimes the rule of cool can't really be codified mechanically, it's why the rule of cool exists. Hope the other players not playing this class have fun too.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The Xanathar Dragonborn feat, Dragon Hide exhibits a natural armor that grants AC 13 + Dex, if not wearing armor. This always-on natural armor that cannot stack with other armors is mechanically identical to an always-on (or at-will reaction) Mage Armor.
The Dragon Hide is part of a halffeat that also grants claws as natural weapons. These claws are better than a 1 point unarmed attack, but their 1d4 + Strength slashing damage is less useful than the other weapons that are normally available. I consider these claws as a ribbon ability, being flavorful but mechanically negligible in worth.
A normal feat aims to be worth about 8 points, and a halffeat about 4 points. Character optimizers dont view the Dragon Hide halffeat as powerful, and indeed it normally gets passed over for other feats, suggesting it might even be subpar compared to other feats. Possibly this halffeat is worth a total of 3 points. Where the claws are worth 1 point or less, the Dragon Hide itself seems worth about 3 or 4 points. In any case, the Dragon Hide is worth about a half feat, even if slightly less. The main problem is, this halffeat is a wash in most situations where the character already has other armors and weapons readily available, thus making it difficult to justify the cost of a feat to simply swap flavor.
Comparing to the Dragon Hide, the at-will Mage Armor is equivalent to a halffeat or less.
he / him
Dragon Hide is a feat designed pre-Tasha's, so no moving around ability bonuses. Dragonborn get +2 Con / +1 Cha. For an Int-based caster, taking this race is a big tradeoff to make just to get Mage Armor for free, and that's with AC still being based on Dex. You are, as before, not taking the whole picture into account. I'm sure Dragon Hide is going to get a lot more popular in campaigns that allow custom lineages or origins (this kind of thing is half the reason none of that will be happening at my table).
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Regarding the Players Handbook, the consensus of character optimizers view the various armor feats as painfully subpar. For a Wizard to spend two halffeats to gain Medium Armor, isnt worth it.
In Reddit, there is a revision of the feats that are in the Players Handbook. It also tweaks some of the Xanathars feats. The new versions of feats balance well with each other, making each feat a comparable appealing choice. The assessment of the worth of feats generally is solid. A number of veteran character optimizers who have studied this revision, hold it in high regard as a balanced selection of feats.
It seems to me, the assessment uses Sharpshooter as the standard unit of measurement for the other feats. Sharpshooter is arguably the most powerful feat in the Players Handbook, and was immediately recognized as such by both exploiters and critics, when the Players Handbook came out. If I were doing the assessment, I would probably nerf Sharpshooter slightly to make it balance with many other feats. Then use that as the standard for all feats. Then again, the choice between an ability score improvement versus a feat should be a painful one. Ideally every feat should be a dilemma because both the feat and the ability feel equally desirable. Many DMs recommend the following feat assessment to give players a selection of good feats to choose from.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/gl2xfz/phb_xge_feats_rebalanced/?utm_source=BD&utm_medium=Search&utm_name=Bing&utm_content=PSR1
With regard to the armor feats in the Players Handbook, the assessment consolidates Lightly Armored, Moderately Armored, Medium Armor Master, into a single halffeat.
BASIC TRAINING
Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
What the Basic Training halffeat does is give any character an AC that is roughly equivalent to Mage Armor as a halffeat. During character creation, the halffeat can grant a chain shirt at AC 13 that Dex 16 can improve to AC 16, without a Stealth disadvantage. Actually for the same price in gold, the scale armor improves the AC to 14 with Dex 16 making 17. At higher levels, half plate armor (meaning cuirass plus limb guards but without any chain, somewhat resembling American football armor) is AC 15 with Dex 16 making AC 18, same as Mage Armor.
All of the various ways to achieve the same benefits as Mage Armor are considered to be worth about half of a feat.
he / him
I am precisely taking the entire 5e gaming system into account, and have always done so during this thread. It is some critics in this thread who have been distracted by paranoia, vague assertions, and complaints that a fresh innovative feature fails be exactly like an old feature. Thus it is the critics who have repeatedly suffered from the impulse to over-nerf. Whether overestimating the worth of Mage Armor or overestimating the worth of two cantrips, it is the critics who continually get it wrong. The critics fail to take the bigger picture into account, with how the Fighter class operates generally, with noting the difference between spells that do-versus-dont benefit from Intelligence, and with how mechanics like AC function generally within the scope of the 5e gaming engine.
he / him
1) Sure. Particularly since a single level in Artificer gives that and more, at the cost of delaying spell (not slot) progression by one level. That doesn't mean anything though.
2) I couldn't care less about reddit credentials, I have to be honest.
3) But you're not giving the same benefits as Mage Armor. You're giving Int-based Mage Armor. Moreover, and this is where we go back to the "doesn't mean anything" part of 1, why - if the armor feats are so painfully subpar - would giving up armor proficiencies (armor proficiencies you probably were never going to use even if you couldn't swap them out) even be worth half a feat?
All this mathing out the supposed worth of abilities is silly to begin with, as it presupposes the abilities involved are balanced the same way under all circumstances. Which is patently not the case.
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That's a lovely speech. 100% opinion, 0% argumentation, filled with ad hominems and appeals to emotion.
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Heh. At least you can see how it feels when people make paranoid vague assertions.
But seriously, no ad hominem. To say that a critic is failing to take the big picture into account (after you yourself made such a critique) is still about the mechanics not about a person.
In the big picture, Mage Armor and the various ways to get an AC equivalent to Mage Armor, are all comparable, and are modest in value. In the big picture, such AC ranging from 13 to 18 and depending on other opportunity costs, is worth about half of a feat.
he / him
I've argued mechanics every time, so I'm not sure you know how that feels.
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For example, to say that Intelligence and Dexterity are different abilities, is less than a useful assessment of their respective mechanical values.
To assert that Intelligence is more powerful than Dexterity is wrong, and is a vague assertion at best.
he / him