Also, when I started playing in 81, we used miniatures, coins, bottle caps and the like to play from time to time. We were tactical in how we ran combat. Were my experiences with the game standard, no. Were your experiences with the game standard, also no. People need to stop acting as though what they did was what everyone did or was even the norm.
I don't know what the norm was, but since there were no rules for miniatures, I find it a strange conversation to suggest that what I did, use the game as it was designed using the rules in the book is in some sort of dispute with your version that you made up at your table. I mean, yes, what I did was the norm, it was how the game was designed, I used the rules as they were written. I'm not saying "you can't play the game how you like", but yeah I object to you re-writing history.
Again just because D&D was influenced by chainmail because that is what the people who designed the game played when they designed it, doesn't mean that was the intent of the design. It was quite the opposite and chainmail was used exclusively in OD&D, the very first version of the game and was changed dramatically in 1st edition both B/X and AD&D very specifically with the intent to make it not a tactical miniature game.
I played predominantly with three different groups from the late '80s until the release of 3E. Every one of those groups had binders full of houserules, homebrew mechanics, and notes on DM rulings. They were extensive, and in many instances quite different from one table to the next. So for me 3E didn't feel like a shift towards a more tactical game (one group didn't start using minis consistently until 3.5) even if such a codification of combat was always going to lead to more of that type of gameplay. It felt like a continuation of what we'd been doing ourselves for years, just published in an official book and ready to use. 4E was different, beause it had all those movement related powers and options. That really changed the feel of the game more towards moving pieces around on a board. But 3E just seemed like WotC having put in a ton of effort so we wouldn't have to come up with so many things ourselves, and even if we did we'd have a more solid base to work from.
tl;dr: the rulesets have certainly become more tactical/formal since WotC took over - the gameplay at my tables on the other hand maybe not so much.
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I think that the Monk class has always felt kind of... isolated. Much of the flavoring and concept behind the Monk is clearly steeped in Eastern tradition, yet there is so very, very little official content that explores Asian-inspired culture. So we end up with monks and Samurai who appear to exist as students of an Eastern culture that doesn't seem to actually exist in any meaningful way.
I wouldn't mind this too much and current races aren't too far of from that with Race/Subrace working similar to Class/subclass. It would just need to be expanded on. Of course that would require a HUGE over hall of the system.
Mmhm. The subrace system is exactly what I'm thinking about; its been something that bothered me since they effectively discarded that for new races almost immediately in Volo's, and only occasionally add new ones to the core classes. Though, I wouldn't necessarily call it a huge overhaul, since you can do it now - just make, say, eight or so homebrew umbrella lineages (human, elf, dwarf, giant, goblinoid, beast tribes, fiendish, undead template, are the ones I'd use offhand, probably add in halfling/gnome for tradition's sake).
Make a whole host of sub-lineages.
Done.
Sadly, it doesn't seem we'll be going that way; 5e seems to be falling back into the whole "new thing, entirely new statblock" method.
I wouldn't mind this too much and current races aren't too far of from that with Race/Subrace working similar to Class/subclass. It would just need to be expanded on. Of course that would require a HUGE over hall of the system.
Mmhm. The subrace system is exactly what I'm thinking about; its been something that bothered me since they effectively discarded that for new races almost immediately in Volo's, and only occasionally add new ones to the core classes. Though, I wouldn't necessarily call it a huge overhaul, since you can do it now - just make, say, eight or so homebrew umbrella lineages (human, elf, dwarf, giant, goblinoid, beast tribes, fiendish, undead template, are the ones I'd use offhand, probably add in halfling/gnome for tradition's sake).
Make a whole host of sub-lineages.
Done.
Sadly, it doesn't seem we'll be going that way; 5e seems to be falling back into the whole "new thing, entirely new statblock" method.
This is kinda what I want as well, though your idea is much more streamlined then what I was thinking off.
Cool. Mind sharing?
What I meant by an over haul was the need to create a set of Core Lineages then take everything that currently exists and reinvent them as subraces. Considering the current number of races/subraces, this would take some work to do. Worth while work? I think so.
I think that the Monk class has always felt kind of... isolated. Much of the flavoring and concept behind the Monk is clearly steeped in Eastern tradition, yet there is so very, very little official content that explores Asian-inspired culture. So we end up with monks and Samurai who appear to exist as students of an Eastern culture that doesn't seem to actually exist in any meaningful way.
3E's D&D/L5R combo to create Oriental Adventures was a mistake. Kara-Tur wasn't the best of settings previously, and creating dual system versions of everything did neither system any favours. I loved L5R (still do, just FFG's version a bit less) but lifting a tiny fraction of that game's lore to use for D&D was never going to work. D&D has a poor track record with non-Eurofantasy settings in general though. The good stuff for that has almost all been 3rd party, and it was good because it was a consistent, thorough effort to create a full setting rather than something tacked onto Faerûn.
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I stand by my (much) earlier sentiment that what I, personally, would like to see is a Big Book of Weeb Shit. Gimme shit-tons of youkai, a bunch of cool Eastern-inspired classes/subclasses, some of that stuff I've been eating up for years now.
I know you talked about kitsune. Do you have anything else specific you want to see? We kind of have the other two great monsters of japan (ogre mages as oni, kenku and tengu). Orochi no yamato would be cool. Some, like the tanuki and yuki-onna, would be cool, but they overlap with western fae a lot in their execution... both of which are sorely lacking as is! Ahem.
Anyways, curious minds inquiring. Big book of Weeb has what in it? If you wrote and published this on DMGuild yourself, what would you put in it?
I think that the Monk class has always felt kind of... isolated. Much of the flavoring and concept behind the Monk is clearly steeped in Eastern tradition, yet there is so very, very little official content that explores Asian-inspired culture. So we end up with monks and Samurai who appear to exist as students of an Eastern culture that doesn't seem to actually exist in any meaningful way.
True. Stereotypical D&D is heavily steeped in medieval europe type stuff, while the monk bears more in common with wuxia and xianxia stories. I vaguely recall the monk class being inspired by kung fu movies, which are kind of related, and developing a greater presence in, ah, "Weeb Shit."
I stand by my (much) earlier sentiment that what I, personally, would like to see is a Big Book of Weeb Shit. Gimme shit-tons of youkai, a bunch of cool Eastern-inspired classes/subclasses, some of that stuff I've been eating up for years now.
I know you talked about kitsune. Do you have anything else specific you want to see? We kind of have the other two great monsters of japan (ogre mages as oni, kenku and tengu). Orochi no yamato would be cool. Some, like the tanuki and yuki-onna, would be cool, but they overlap with western fae a lot in their execution... both of which are sorely lacking as is! Ahem.
Anyways, curious minds inquiring. Big book of Weeb has what in it? If you wrote and published this on DMGuild yourself, what would you put in it?
I don't know how much this stuff is based in real Far Eastern culture/legends, but I would kind of like to see a lineage or subclass dedicated to creatures who transform into living weapons (a la Soul Eater or Noragami). I wrote up something like this as homebrew where I basically gave a sorcerer the ability to "wildshape" into a flying sword.
I stand by my (much) earlier sentiment that what I, personally, would like to see is a Big Book of Weeb Shit. Gimme shit-tons of youkai, a bunch of cool Eastern-inspired classes/subclasses, some of that stuff I've been eating up for years now.
I know you talked about kitsune. Do you have anything else specific you want to see? We kind of have the other two great monsters of japan (ogre mages as oni, kenku and tengu). Orochi no yamato would be cool. Some, like the tanuki and yuki-onna, would be cool, but they overlap with western fae a lot in their execution... both of which are sorely lacking as is! Ahem.
Anyways, curious minds inquiring. Big book of Weeb has what in it? If you wrote and published this on DMGuild yourself, what would you put in it?
I think that the Monk class has always felt kind of... isolated. Much of the flavoring and concept behind the Monk is clearly steeped in Eastern tradition, yet there is so very, very little official content that explores Asian-inspired culture. So we end up with monks and Samurai who appear to exist as students of an Eastern culture that doesn't seem to actually exist in any meaningful way.
True. Stereotypical D&D is heavily steeped in medieval europe type stuff, while the monk bears more in common with wuxia and xianxia stories. I vaguely recall the monk class being inspired by kung fu movies, which are kind of related, and developing a greater presence in, ah, "Weeb Shit."
Mostly monsters to be honest. They could also do a more extensive weapons and armor equivalency chart (Katana = Long Sword) to make it easier on DMs and Players to be on the same page when it comes to expectations of gear. Maybe they could also do some more themed subclasses like they did for Samurai.
I wouldn't mind this too much and current races aren't too far of from that with Race/Subrace working similar to Class/subclass. It would just need to be expanded on. Of course that would require a HUGE over hall of the system.
Mmhm. The subrace system is exactly what I'm thinking about; its been something that bothered me since they effectively discarded that for new races almost immediately in Volo's, and only occasionally add new ones to the core classes. Though, I wouldn't necessarily call it a huge overhaul, since you can do it now - just make, say, eight or so homebrew umbrella lineages (human, elf, dwarf, giant, goblinoid, beast tribes, fiendish, undead template, are the ones I'd use offhand, probably add in halfling/gnome for tradition's sake).
Make a whole host of sub-lineages.
Done.
Sadly, it doesn't seem we'll be going that way; 5e seems to be falling back into the whole "new thing, entirely new statblock" method.
This is kinda what I want as well, though your idea is much more streamlined then what I was thinking off.
Cool. Mind sharing?
What I meant by an over haul was the need to create a set of Core Lineages then take everything that currently exists and reinvent them as subraces. Considering the current number of races/subraces, this would take some work to do. Worth while work? I think so.
I think it's possible, though not guaranteed, that the game is moving this way with the Ravensloft book coming out with three lineages each containing two "types." Clearly with Tasha's "floating and adjustable" custom origin applied to race, same book's custom lineage system, and these new Gothlines (tm, Midnightplat 2021), the game is making moves to grant their player greater control over lineage/species features (and I'd say they opened the door to doing the same with classes through optional class features if they go a bit further on the swap in and out side of things). I think to keep the game "whole" there needs to be a way to use this emerging lineage system to actually build the races in the PHB. And yes, this would take some work, but I think it would be doable to allow for the release of a reconciled edition in time for the 50th. All current products would be compatible, so it's no so much a new edition as a consolidated format. There'd be a section on designing lineages, with quick starts "for examples" of the extant races, same for classes, etc.
I'm also glad the original topic has been maintained in this line of discussion as I'm just baffled how someone asking what more do you want to ask for in D&D in terms of races and classes has billowed among some bloviators into a battle over who if anyone has the right to ask the question.
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I am hoping that it does move towards a little more modular of a system. Not too much so, I have played point buy systems that let you build what ever you want and seen the crazy out of wack character/party builds that can happen from those. But a more controlled system would be interesting to see.
To be fair, a 'Big Book of Feywild' would be almost as high on my list, and actually has a snowball's chance in Hell of happening. As for what I'd put into a BBoWS? That would be the work of many a moon to assemble. Off the top of my head? A few of the tamer youkai as playable statblocks, an Onmyodo wizard subclass, probably a 'Spirits Domain' cleric to try and hit the miko mark. Bunch-ass monsters and some setting information, probably DM tools/notes for running a kishotenketsu story rather than a Three Acts story. Would involve copious research to do better than Wizards has traditionally done with non-Eurofantasy junk, and frankly I like the idea of building creative riffs on these creatures that offer cool play experiences. My existing homebrew kitsune species are not Magical Foxes From Not-Japan, but are instead the descendants of powerful, capricious 'Fox Fey' cursed by ancient deities to be robbed of their power and made to live amongst the mortals they'd so delighted in tormenting. Which, at least in my brain, let me have the essence of the Fluffy Magical Trickster while still anchoring the things in a D&D world rather than trying to just import Japan straight-up into D&D.
That's the sort of thing I'd like to see. Someone with the knowledge, passion and respect necessary for the job assembling a treatise on taking the essence of these cool-ass critters and stories we love and transposing them into the game. So...not Wizards, as they do not have knowledge, passion, or respect. But ehh. Is what it is, I suppose.
"That's the sort of thing I'd like to see. Someone with the knowledge, passion and respect necessary for the job assembling a treatise on taking the essence of these cool-ass critters and stories we love and transposing them into the game. So...not Wizards, as they do not have knowledge, passion, or respect. But ehh. Is what it is, I suppose."
I could have written the same thing about protecting the soul of the game when writing any new material. Emphasis on "Knowledge, passion or respect."
"That's the sort of thing I'd like to see. Someone with the knowledge, passion and respect necessary for the job assembling a treatise on taking the essence of these cool-ass critters and stories we love and transposing them into the game. So...not Wizards, as they do not have knowledge, passion, or respect. But ehh. Is what it is, I suppose."
I could have written the same thing about protecting the soul of the game when writing any new material. Emphasis on "Knowledge, passion or respect."
I stand by my (much) earlier sentiment that what I, personally, would like to see is a Big Book of Weeb Shit. Gimme shit-tons of youkai, a bunch of cool Eastern-inspired classes/subclasses, some of that stuff I've been eating up for years now.
I know you talked about kitsune. Do you have anything else specific you want to see? We kind of have the other two great monsters of japan (ogre mages as oni, kenku and tengu). Orochi no yamato would be cool. Some, like the tanuki and yuki-onna, would be cool, but they overlap with western fae a lot in their execution... both of which are sorely lacking as is! Ahem.
Anyways, curious minds inquiring. Big book of Weeb has what in it? If you wrote and published this on DMGuild yourself, what would you put in it?
I think that the Monk class has always felt kind of... isolated. Much of the flavoring and concept behind the Monk is clearly steeped in Eastern tradition, yet there is so very, very little official content that explores Asian-inspired culture. So we end up with monks and Samurai who appear to exist as students of an Eastern culture that doesn't seem to actually exist in any meaningful way.
True. Stereotypical D&D is heavily steeped in medieval europe type stuff, while the monk bears more in common with wuxia and xianxia stories. I vaguely recall the monk class being inspired by kung fu movies, which are kind of related, and developing a greater presence in, ah, "Weeb Shit."
Mostly monsters to be honest. They could also do a more extensive weapons and armor equivalency chart (Katana = Long Sword) to make it easier on DMs and Players to be on the same page when it comes to expectations of gear. Maybe they could also do some more themed subclasses like they did for Samurai.
I guess some folks are trying to be funny, but can we maybe take a step away from Big Book of Weeb? Unless you're talking about new content strictly from Japan centered history and mythos (in present D&D you're talking about the Samaurai and arguably the Kensai in its strictest interpretation, the rest of the Monk speaks to a number of Asian cultures, I'd say even going as far South as India, but one most recognizes it deriving from Chinese Wuxia), I mean if we're going to be that calloused we might as well call it Oriental Adventures. That aside, I remember at one of the big D&D streaming events there was word of some Asian and Pacific Islander projects to do just the sort of work being asked for in this vein. I'll have to look it up if I have time to see if the mention I'm remembering actually had a specific publisher or title in it. All that said, under 5e mechanics functionally it's not hard to posit longsword = katana = jian (though come from very different respective contexts), and some sort of book drawing on broader RL lore and traditions showing how those lore and traditions can talk to existing D&D centered lore and traditions would be pretty cool a mix of cross reference lexicography and innovation.
I don't know how much this stuff is based in real Far Eastern culture/legends, but I would kind of like to see a lineage or subclass dedicated to creatures who transform into living weapons (a la Soul Eater or Noragami). I wrote up something like this as homebrew where I basically gave a sorcerer the ability to "wildshape" into a flying sword.
Mostly monsters to be honest. They could also do a more extensive weapons and armor equivalency chart (Katana = Long Sword) to make it easier on DMs and Players to be on the same page when it comes to expectations of gear. Maybe they could also do some more themed subclasses like they did for Samurai.
I think it's possible, though not guaranteed, that the game is moving this way with the Ravensloft book coming out with three lineages each containing two "types."
I snagged the idea of multiple types from there, yeah, but unfortunately, I distinctly get the idea we're going for "everything is a separate block of stats" instead of a unified system. Ah, well.
I think to keep the game "whole" there needs to be a way to use this emerging lineage system to actually build the races in the PHB. And yes, this would take some work, but I think it would be doable to allow for the release of a reconciled edition in time for the 50th.
Well, I suspect that they'll more just create "new" lineages to represent core races as new blocks. I mean, they remade variant humans as "custom lineage" after all. They'll just add them on top of the existing ones, so you can pick and choose what you want.
To be fair, a 'Big Book of Feywild' would be almost as high on my list, and actually has a snowball's chance in Hell of happening.
Yep. Pretty much.
As for what I'd put into a BBoWS? That would be the work of many a moon to assemble. Off the top of my head? A few of the tamer youkai as playable statblocks, an Onmyodo wizard subclass, probably a 'Spirits Domain' cleric to try and hit the miko mark. Bunch-ass monsters and some setting information, probably DM tools/notes for running a kishotenketsu story rather than a Three Acts story. Would involve copious research to do better than Wizards has traditionally done with non-Eurofantasy junk, and frankly I like the idea of building creative riffs on these creatures that offer cool play experiences. My existing homebrew kitsune species are not Magical Foxes From Not-Japan, but are instead the descendants of powerful, capricious 'Fox Fey' cursed by ancient deities to be robbed of their power and made to live amongst the mortals they'd so delighted in tormenting. Which, at least in my brain, let me have the essence of the Fluffy Magical Trickster while still anchoring the things in a D&D world rather than trying to just import Japan straight-up into D&D.
That's the sort of thing I'd like to see. Someone with the knowledge, passion and respect necessary for the job assembling a treatise on taking the essence of these cool-ass critters and stories we love and transposing them into the game. So...not Wizards, as they do not have knowledge, passion, or respect. But ehh. Is what it is, I suppose.
Huh. Pretty neat ideas. I'd make the miko into a druid myself (shintoism as an animistic religion has more in common with druids than clerics, imho), but.... lots of great ideas. Hm.... might be fun to set up a thread and just sit down and hash all of this stuff out some time. I really like the idea of an Onmyodo wizard.
Apologies, Midnight. I refer to the idea that way myself because whenever I try to be less irreverent about it I am immediately assaulted by a bunch of tools hurling petty insults and otaku-nerdbait memes at me for daring to have a soft spot for a different culture's forms of storytelling. I will desist in the term, but as you noted, there's no real good, solid term to refer to this particular block of mythos and lore other than 'Eastern', which doesn't sit right either. Blegh.
Honestly I would love a setting, like Rokugan in the Legend of the Five Rings system, based on medieval cultures in East Asia. At the same time, though, I’d be worried about people turning it into a ridiculous stereotyped anime thing, which hopefully it couldn’t be further from.
This is kinda what I want as well, though your idea is much more streamlined then what I was thinking off.
Cool. Mind sharing?
Honestly, it’s mostly just a more refined and expanded version of what 4e did. Each major race has a core set of abilities. However, you could then switch each out for another ability instead.
So for example, I’ll use a Dragonborn. My base Dragonborn would have the following abilities.
Darkvision
Breath Weapon
Resistance
Claw Attack
Now for each of these abilities, you would have different options to replace them with. For Darkvision, you could instead have proficiency with Perception. Instead of a 1/rest breath weapon, you could have a 1/rest fear aura, or a 1/rest reaction that causes a burst of elemental damage around you, or a bite attack that 1/rest can do extra elemental damage. Instead of resistance to a damage type, you can have natural armor, or wings that give you a glide ability like the Simic Hybrid, or a swim speed. Instead of a claw attack, you can get a weapon or tool proficiency, or a cantrips fitting your elemental type.
Using this you could craft a Dragonborn to be more tanky or more magical or more adaptable or whatever.
If I wanted to go even crazier with this idea I would introduce more feats and separate them into categories, racial, class, and general. Racial feats could then be used to expand upon your chosen racial traits if you wish, allowing for more unique options for your character. If you took the Breath Weapon feature, you could take a feat that allows you to instead use your breath to imbue your weapon with extra elemental damage for a short spell. You could also just take a feat to improve the breath weapon in general instead. If you chose gliding wings, a feat could allow you full flight. If you instead chose a swim speed you can take a feat to give yourself the ability to breath under water. Taking the cantrips could allow you to gain a bit more magic connected to your element choice through a feat, or if you took the claw attack you could improve it.
As you can see though, it’s much more complicated and would actually take a total revamp to balance it with everything else. It’s more of a pipe dream. I don’t expect it to ever happen, especially not in 5e. It would be cool though, at least to me.
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"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
To be fair, a 'Big Book of Feywild' would be almost as high on my list, and actually has a snowball's chance in Hell of happening. As for what I'd put into a BBoWS? That would be the work of many a moon to assemble. Off the top of my head? A few of the tamer youkai as playable statblocks, an Onmyodo wizard subclass, probably a 'Spirits Domain' cleric to try and hit the miko mark. Bunch-ass monsters and some setting information, probably DM tools/notes for running a kishotenketsu story rather than a Three Acts story. Would involve copious research to do better than Wizards has traditionally done with non-Eurofantasy junk, and frankly I like the idea of building creative riffs on these creatures that offer cool play experiences. My existing homebrew kitsune species are not Magical Foxes From Not-Japan, but are instead the descendants of powerful, capricious 'Fox Fey' cursed by ancient deities to be robbed of their power and made to live amongst the mortals they'd so delighted in tormenting. Which, at least in my brain, let me have the essence of the Fluffy Magical Trickster while still anchoring the things in a D&D world rather than trying to just import Japan straight-up into D&D.
That's the sort of thing I'd like to see. Someone with the knowledge, passion and respect necessary for the job assembling a treatise on taking the essence of these cool-ass critters and stories we love and transposing them into the game. So...not Wizards, as they do not have knowledge, passion, or respect. But ehh. Is what it is, I suppose.
I'd suggest defining a fairly specific theme or concept. "Weeb Shit" may be more clearly delineated than it seems to me, but setting books work better when there's a clear vision as the starting point. Al-Qadim wasn't perfect, but it worked because it was pretty much "Arabian Nights northern Africa desert setting, start from there", which was focused enough that developers would immediately have a good idea of scope and content and imposed a genre right away. Kara-Tur didn't work because it was probably pitched something like "mysteries of the Far East" which encompasses massively more cultures and concepts than Western Europe and offers no direction with regards to genre.
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I could see the arguments for miko as druids rather than clerics, but they are "Shrine" maidens, custodians of a physical building (most of the time). That and it's incredibly difficult to make druids into anything but regular D&D druids because of ******* Wild Shape. Every last single druid subclass has to be all about the Wild Shaping because that's the druid's whole thing, its whole schtick, its raison d'etre. Which makes it VERY FREAKING DIFFICULT to turn the druid into a nature mage or an animistic spirit caller rather than Baby's First Fursuit, because even subclasses that give you another way to use Wild Shape uses aren't allowed to say "You cannot Wild Shape; instead..."
That and clerics having some degree of martial competence actually lines up with miko as well. Miko were expected to be able to fight to some extent (I believe, anyways. Been a while since I did my reading), even if the Magic Super Archer thing is an anime contrivance. It's probably easier to turn clerics into animists than it is to turn druids into not-druids, since Channel Divinity is more flexible than ******* Wild Shape.
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I played predominantly with three different groups from the late '80s until the release of 3E. Every one of those groups had binders full of houserules, homebrew mechanics, and notes on DM rulings. They were extensive, and in many instances quite different from one table to the next. So for me 3E didn't feel like a shift towards a more tactical game (one group didn't start using minis consistently until 3.5) even if such a codification of combat was always going to lead to more of that type of gameplay. It felt like a continuation of what we'd been doing ourselves for years, just published in an official book and ready to use. 4E was different, beause it had all those movement related powers and options. That really changed the feel of the game more towards moving pieces around on a board. But 3E just seemed like WotC having put in a ton of effort so we wouldn't have to come up with so many things ourselves, and even if we did we'd have a more solid base to work from.
tl;dr: the rulesets have certainly become more tactical/formal since WotC took over - the gameplay at my tables on the other hand maybe not so much.
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I think that the Monk class has always felt kind of... isolated. Much of the flavoring and concept behind the Monk is clearly steeped in Eastern tradition, yet there is so very, very little official content that explores Asian-inspired culture. So we end up with monks and Samurai who appear to exist as students of an Eastern culture that doesn't seem to actually exist in any meaningful way.
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Mmhm. The subrace system is exactly what I'm thinking about; its been something that bothered me since they effectively discarded that for new races almost immediately in Volo's, and only occasionally add new ones to the core classes. Though, I wouldn't necessarily call it a huge overhaul, since you can do it now - just make, say, eight or so homebrew umbrella lineages (human, elf, dwarf, giant, goblinoid, beast tribes, fiendish, undead template, are the ones I'd use offhand, probably add in halfling/gnome for tradition's sake).
Make a whole host of sub-lineages.
Done.
Sadly, it doesn't seem we'll be going that way; 5e seems to be falling back into the whole "new thing, entirely new statblock" method.
Cool. Mind sharing?
What I meant by an over haul was the need to create a set of Core Lineages then take everything that currently exists and reinvent them as subraces. Considering the current number of races/subraces, this would take some work to do. Worth while work? I think so.
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3E's D&D/L5R combo to create Oriental Adventures was a mistake. Kara-Tur wasn't the best of settings previously, and creating dual system versions of everything did neither system any favours. I loved L5R (still do, just FFG's version a bit less) but lifting a tiny fraction of that game's lore to use for D&D was never going to work. D&D has a poor track record with non-Eurofantasy settings in general though. The good stuff for that has almost all been 3rd party, and it was good because it was a consistent, thorough effort to create a full setting rather than something tacked onto Faerûn.
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I know you talked about kitsune. Do you have anything else specific you want to see? We kind of have the other two great monsters of japan (ogre mages as oni, kenku and tengu). Orochi no yamato would be cool. Some, like the tanuki and yuki-onna, would be cool, but they overlap with western fae a lot in their execution... both of which are sorely lacking as is! Ahem.
Anyways, curious minds inquiring. Big book of Weeb has what in it? If you wrote and published this on DMGuild yourself, what would you put in it?
Same as above. What do you want to see?
True. Stereotypical D&D is heavily steeped in medieval europe type stuff, while the monk bears more in common with wuxia and xianxia stories. I vaguely recall the monk class being inspired by kung fu movies, which are kind of related, and developing a greater presence in, ah, "Weeb Shit."
I don't know how much this stuff is based in real Far Eastern culture/legends, but I would kind of like to see a lineage or subclass dedicated to creatures who transform into living weapons (a la Soul Eater or Noragami). I wrote up something like this as homebrew where I basically gave a sorcerer the ability to "wildshape" into a flying sword.
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Mostly monsters to be honest. They could also do a more extensive weapons and armor equivalency chart (Katana = Long Sword) to make it easier on DMs and Players to be on the same page when it comes to expectations of gear. Maybe they could also do some more themed subclasses like they did for Samurai.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I think it's possible, though not guaranteed, that the game is moving this way with the Ravensloft book coming out with three lineages each containing two "types." Clearly with Tasha's "floating and adjustable" custom origin applied to race, same book's custom lineage system, and these new Gothlines (tm, Midnightplat 2021), the game is making moves to grant their player greater control over lineage/species features (and I'd say they opened the door to doing the same with classes through optional class features if they go a bit further on the swap in and out side of things). I think to keep the game "whole" there needs to be a way to use this emerging lineage system to actually build the races in the PHB. And yes, this would take some work, but I think it would be doable to allow for the release of a reconciled edition in time for the 50th. All current products would be compatible, so it's no so much a new edition as a consolidated format. There'd be a section on designing lineages, with quick starts "for examples" of the extant races, same for classes, etc.
I'm also glad the original topic has been maintained in this line of discussion as I'm just baffled how someone asking what more do you want to ask for in D&D in terms of races and classes has billowed among some bloviators into a battle over who if anyone has the right to ask the question.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I am hoping that it does move towards a little more modular of a system. Not too much so, I have played point buy systems that let you build what ever you want and seen the crazy out of wack character/party builds that can happen from those. But a more controlled system would be interesting to see.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
To be fair, a 'Big Book of Feywild' would be almost as high on my list, and actually has a snowball's chance in Hell of happening. As for what I'd put into a BBoWS? That would be the work of many a moon to assemble. Off the top of my head? A few of the tamer youkai as playable statblocks, an Onmyodo wizard subclass, probably a 'Spirits Domain' cleric to try and hit the miko mark. Bunch-ass monsters and some setting information, probably DM tools/notes for running a kishotenketsu story rather than a Three Acts story. Would involve copious research to do better than Wizards has traditionally done with non-Eurofantasy junk, and frankly I like the idea of building creative riffs on these creatures that offer cool play experiences. My existing homebrew kitsune species are not Magical Foxes From Not-Japan, but are instead the descendants of powerful, capricious 'Fox Fey' cursed by ancient deities to be robbed of their power and made to live amongst the mortals they'd so delighted in tormenting. Which, at least in my brain, let me have the essence of the Fluffy Magical Trickster while still anchoring the things in a D&D world rather than trying to just import Japan straight-up into D&D.
That's the sort of thing I'd like to see. Someone with the knowledge, passion and respect necessary for the job assembling a treatise on taking the essence of these cool-ass critters and stories we love and transposing them into the game. So...not Wizards, as they do not have knowledge, passion, or respect. But ehh. Is what it is, I suppose.
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"That's the sort of thing I'd like to see. Someone with the knowledge, passion and respect necessary for the job assembling a treatise on taking the essence of these cool-ass critters and stories we love and transposing them into the game. So...not Wizards, as they do not have knowledge, passion, or respect. But ehh. Is what it is, I suppose."
I could have written the same thing about protecting the soul of the game when writing any new material. Emphasis on "Knowledge, passion or respect."
Okay, Boomer.
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I guess some folks are trying to be funny, but can we maybe take a step away from Big Book of Weeb? Unless you're talking about new content strictly from Japan centered history and mythos (in present D&D you're talking about the Samaurai and arguably the Kensai in its strictest interpretation, the rest of the Monk speaks to a number of Asian cultures, I'd say even going as far South as India, but one most recognizes it deriving from Chinese Wuxia), I mean if we're going to be that calloused we might as well call it Oriental Adventures. That aside, I remember at one of the big D&D streaming events there was word of some Asian and Pacific Islander projects to do just the sort of work being asked for in this vein. I'll have to look it up if I have time to see if the mention I'm remembering actually had a specific publisher or title in it. All that said, under 5e mechanics functionally it's not hard to posit longsword = katana = jian (though come from very different respective contexts), and some sort of book drawing on broader RL lore and traditions showing how those lore and traditions can talk to existing D&D centered lore and traditions would be pretty cool a mix of cross reference lexicography and innovation.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Huh. Cool. I like it.
Fair enough.
I snagged the idea of multiple types from there, yeah, but unfortunately, I distinctly get the idea we're going for "everything is a separate block of stats" instead of a unified system. Ah, well.
Well, I suspect that they'll more just create "new" lineages to represent core races as new blocks. I mean, they remade variant humans as "custom lineage" after all. They'll just add them on top of the existing ones, so you can pick and choose what you want.
Yep. Pretty much.
Huh. Pretty neat ideas. I'd make the miko into a druid myself (shintoism as an animistic religion has more in common with druids than clerics, imho), but.... lots of great ideas. Hm.... might be fun to set up a thread and just sit down and hash all of this stuff out some time. I really like the idea of an Onmyodo wizard.
Also, learned a new word!
Apologies, Midnight. I refer to the idea that way myself because whenever I try to be less irreverent about it I am immediately assaulted by a bunch of tools hurling petty insults and otaku-nerdbait memes at me for daring to have a soft spot for a different culture's forms of storytelling. I will desist in the term, but as you noted, there's no real good, solid term to refer to this particular block of mythos and lore other than 'Eastern', which doesn't sit right either. Blegh.
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Honestly I would love a setting, like Rokugan in the Legend of the Five Rings system, based on medieval cultures in East Asia. At the same time, though, I’d be worried about people turning it into a ridiculous stereotyped anime thing, which hopefully it couldn’t be further from.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Honestly, it’s mostly just a more refined and expanded version of what 4e did. Each major race has a core set of abilities. However, you could then switch each out for another ability instead.
So for example, I’ll use a Dragonborn. My base Dragonborn would have the following abilities.
Now for each of these abilities, you would have different options to replace them with. For Darkvision, you could instead have proficiency with Perception. Instead of a 1/rest breath weapon, you could have a 1/rest fear aura, or a 1/rest reaction that causes a burst of elemental damage around you, or a bite attack that 1/rest can do extra elemental damage. Instead of resistance to a damage type, you can have natural armor, or wings that give you a glide ability like the Simic Hybrid, or a swim speed. Instead of a claw attack, you can get a weapon or tool proficiency, or a cantrips fitting your elemental type.
Using this you could craft a Dragonborn to be more tanky or more magical or more adaptable or whatever.
If I wanted to go even crazier with this idea I would introduce more feats and separate them into categories, racial, class, and general. Racial feats could then be used to expand upon your chosen racial traits if you wish, allowing for more unique options for your character. If you took the Breath Weapon feature, you could take a feat that allows you to instead use your breath to imbue your weapon with extra elemental damage for a short spell. You could also just take a feat to improve the breath weapon in general instead. If you chose gliding wings, a feat could allow you full flight. If you instead chose a swim speed you can take a feat to give yourself the ability to breath under water. Taking the cantrips could allow you to gain a bit more magic connected to your element choice through a feat, or if you took the claw attack you could improve it.
As you can see though, it’s much more complicated and would actually take a total revamp to balance it with everything else. It’s more of a pipe dream. I don’t expect it to ever happen, especially not in 5e. It would be cool though, at least to me.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
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I'd suggest defining a fairly specific theme or concept. "Weeb Shit" may be more clearly delineated than it seems to me, but setting books work better when there's a clear vision as the starting point. Al-Qadim wasn't perfect, but it worked because it was pretty much "Arabian Nights northern Africa desert setting, start from there", which was focused enough that developers would immediately have a good idea of scope and content and imposed a genre right away. Kara-Tur didn't work because it was probably pitched something like "mysteries of the Far East" which encompasses massively more cultures and concepts than Western Europe and offers no direction with regards to genre.
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I could see the arguments for miko as druids rather than clerics, but they are "Shrine" maidens, custodians of a physical building (most of the time). That and it's incredibly difficult to make druids into anything but regular D&D druids because of ******* Wild Shape. Every last single druid subclass has to be all about the Wild Shaping because that's the druid's whole thing, its whole schtick, its raison d'etre. Which makes it VERY FREAKING DIFFICULT to turn the druid into a nature mage or an animistic spirit caller rather than Baby's First Fursuit, because even subclasses that give you another way to use Wild Shape uses aren't allowed to say "You cannot Wild Shape; instead..."
That and clerics having some degree of martial competence actually lines up with miko as well. Miko were expected to be able to fight to some extent (I believe, anyways. Been a while since I did my reading), even if the Magic Super Archer thing is an anime contrivance. It's probably easier to turn clerics into animists than it is to turn druids into not-druids, since Channel Divinity is more flexible than ******* Wild Shape.
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