The way I tend to do my character's backstories, are I have a concept in mind. I know what I want out of my character, then I ask "How does he get here?". Working backwards helps everything line up. I really like how Elaine Cunningham wrote Liriel Baenre. She starts off pretty evil, and is definitely interested in power. Then she meets a human barbarian who starts to influence her. She starts off her journey looking to preserve her power, and slowly learns to see the value of trust and learns to love. I like it far better than Drizzt's "never learned evil because of daddy". Hallistra Melarn from War of the Spider Queen is an example of a character learning to be...not so evil.
Perhaps your character or character's mother is captured on a surface raid, or perhaps betrayed and left on the surface. After spending time with the surface elves, there's been a fundamental change in thinking after seeing how trust allows a team to do things an individual could never accomplish.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
You're welcome. My curiosity has pulled up a chair and my imagination has lit a few torches. Now, I must wait for the telling of this tale you eventually will tell.
Lolth... not evil? Bwa? She's always seemed extremely evil to me, even to the point of edging away from Chaotic territory, closer to Lawful, given her perchance for tyrannical rule - the only reason that drow civilization hasn't devolved into a huge mess is because Lolth forcefully holds it together.
I see her as definitely evil. I can see the veneer of law, but, the rules are there to exploit to gain power. That's where the chaos comes in. As long as nobody /sees/ it, it never happened...even when everyone knows it happened and who did it. The rule really is...don't get caught. The chaos is what Lolth thives on. For example, looking back to the first of the Dark Elf trilogy which I thought you said you had read, Lolth never punished Drizzt for not killing the elf child. Lolth simply dropped a dime via her Yochlol about it, then kicked back and enjoyed the show as Malice scrambled to regain Lolth's favor. Later on, Lolth gave Malice her "greatest gift", Zin-Carla to help hunt Drizzt down. Again, Lolth got bored with the status-quo, and stirred the pot again, then kicked back to watch the drama play out.
Jarlaxle is another example. He doesn't play by any of the rules, and Lolth does nothing about it. He's an agent of chaos. Everywhere he goes, things move and shake, and Lolth loves that. For good or ill, she doesn't care, provided she's interested. She's an instigator of the highest order, without the burden of morality. She just wants to be entertained. The "rules" only exist to make chaos happen. As long as you entertain her, you can toss the rules out the window...but you'd better be entertaining.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I've been around the Table for a long time. I have decades of D&D lore in my head. The mythology presented in Mordenkainen's is on point, I especially enjoy the elven war. That history alone gives a fuller, richer history to the elves and the drow. They seem less like Vulcans and Romulans now, and more like races unto themselves.
Pre-5E I would say Lolth was absolutely CE. In 5E, she's not evil in the way the new core rulebooks define a character/entity of evil alignment — she's beyond selfish. And by beyond, I mean she exists outside the description of evil as selfish. Her motivations are far more complex than self-soothing techniques.
Besides which, as far as I can remember I never prescribed to the idea that a deity or entity could ever neatly "fit" into an alignment. Lolth is Loth. in the same way that Tempus is Tempus. Even he has gone through some changes. When he first emerged in the Forgotten Realms he was perceived as bloodthirsty, and now he has a broader portfolio, and a larger role as a god of war. He is an embodiment of the various aspects of warfare, much more interesting than a deity with tunnel vision.
I was just making a case for Loth being more than an "evil" deity. She isn't a caricature, predictable or rigid. She is, oddly enough, IMO, a fluid being that applies pressure to her followers as it suits her whim. Good, she will never be. Neutral? On occasion she has done nothing, so yes, she can be. She isn't clairvoyant, yet she understands the subtle ways flawed people can be manipulated. She manipulates through a variety of emotional mechanisms, including stereotypes, racism, sexism, and yes, tropes, to exploit advantage.
I will say that I can see Lolth being more forgiving to "good" characters than many other evil deities, if for no other reason than she is also a goddess of Chaos. Being outside the box fits right in with her.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I will say that I can see Lolth being more forgiving to "good" characters than many other evil deities, if for no other reason than she is also a goddess of Chaos. Being outside the box fits right in with her.
You're welcome. My curiosity has pulled up a chair and my imagination has lit a few torches. Now, I must wait for the telling of this tale you eventually will tell.
You certainly have. This is a draft, but in order to justify why Mendira (my character) understands both Abyssal and Infernal, his mother long understood that she would never see her son into adulthood and so made him memorize a chant, phonetically, without him understanding what the language was, nor what it meant. It turns out to be Abyssal and Infernal together, combined in a way such that the meaning is convoluted unless the speaker speaks both. When the sounds his mother made him learn begin to make sense, he understands more of what she wants for him.
I found an excellent voice actress on fiverr.com named irisit101 who voiced this mp3 in his mother's voice for me:
My dearest Mendira, fruit of my womb, I am your mother and happily I suffered the Nine Pains for you. For 100 years I have watched you, steadfast and devout, become greater than your father ever was in life. For that you have your mother’s eternal love and freely I give you my name. My second regret is that I am not able to bestow the man you have forged with a man’s reward. The first is that I will never see the beautiful splendor of a world of iron curved into submission by the fires of your will. It is written... Farewell my beautiful son. Alone in the dark depths I wait to rest your head on my breast once again. May you claim in our name even this place.
I'd also like to include the confrontation between his mother and his aunt that pretty much provokes her death; Iris is looking to see if some other friends of hers on Fiverr can help out.
I'd just like to leave a general note expressing how much I appreciate all of the very, very good discussion from all the participants: AdventureHalz, crzyhawk, mephista, GiantOctopodes, you guys have broadened my horizons and educated me in many ways. Thank you. You guys alone have justified what I paid for D&D Beyond :)
My thoughts are that the Gods exist not to have created anything, but they arise to explain reality as it is. They provide the "first cause" that allows an otherwise inscrutable world to make sense, and that is all a god really has to do: Without a fundamental agent of Chaos, how can a new mother understand how the world could take the life of her innocent infant, born frail? How can a father understand why his only son and heir remained on the battlefield, of a war in which neither had an interest? And it shouldn't be limited to just chaos: If there were no gods of Duty and other lofty things, how can it be believed that a Paladin would defend and ultimately fall, protecting the those that could not protect themselves and have no hope of repaying him? Why do all these things happen, when perhaps all other paths of reasoning say they shouldn't?
The gods exist and have such power because all the other universes in which they didn't... couldn't exist.
So I can totally buy the idea that Lolth really doesn't care about good or evil; her job is to make all the impossible things in the world that we already see that seems to defy all logic and we cannot fathom why it would be... to make sense. An innocent babe died, cheated out of 80 years after only a few days? Don't wrack your brain, it was Lolth. Or Loki. Or Set. Or whoever. Son died in a senseless war? Damn it, it was the will of Ares. I think that is how people would have to think in a world in which magic exists and is devoid of the Rational Inquiry of the Scientific Method.
I see her as definitely evil. I can see the veneer of law, but, the rules are there to exploit to gain power. That's where the chaos comes in. As long as nobody /sees/ it, it never happened...even when everyone knows it happened and who did it. The rule really is...don't get caught. The chaos is what Lolth thives on.
That's also kind of Asmodeus' shtick, pretty much how the Nine Hells function. A devil can break all the rules, and as long as it either gets away with it unknown, or can argue and twist things in devil court.
Now, Lolth is still a murderous sociopath that gets her divine jollies from breaking, killing and torturing others. The drow are basically her brainwashed cult she uses as playthings for her sadistic pleasure. Definitely qualities you find a lot of in the Abyss, the realm of chaotic evil. I mean, you won't see Corellon acting that way, and he's a Chaotic God.
Lolth never punished Drizzt for not killing the elf child. Lolth simply dropped a dime via her Yochlol about it, then kicked back and enjoyed the show as Malice scrambled to regain Lolth's favor. Later on, Lolth gave Malice her "greatest gift", Zin-Carla to help hunt Drizzt down. Again, Lolth got bored with the status-quo, and stirred the pot again, then kicked back to watch the drama play out.
That's taking things a bit out of context, I think. Lolth made her displeasure over letting the elf go, but blamed the entire House rather than an individual. Quite common in many societies. And the House was punished by requiring a sacrifice of Drizzt's father/mentor.
Jarlaxle is another example.
I think that he's kind of a bad example. - Jarlaxle is similar to the Masked Lord, not Lolth, in the first place. Drow society is not monolithic theocracy, after all, and gods aren't all knowing, all controlling by design (possibly because of interference of other gods?). He hides his activities from the priestess of Lolth, and has been called to heel more than once for trying to break away. Lastly, there's never been any indication that Lolth or her priestesses have had much interest in Jarlaxle beyond knowing he's there and using his connections/resources when doing something else. Prove himself useful and tied to the ruling powers of the city are pretty much the main concerns of Lolth's priesthood, and he does that.
Jarlaxle isn't exactly a Good character either - he's an unrepentant thief, after all.
I will say that I can see Lolth being more forgiving to "good" characters than many other evil deities, if for no other reason than she is also a goddess of Chaos. Being outside the box fits right in with her.
That's kind of stereotyping, I think? I mean, Asmodeus presents himself as a necessary evil in the multiverse, and often allies with the forces of good over evil deities frequently. And its not like most evil dieties have a hate-on for Good people. In fact, its often understood that most humans pray to all gods, both good and evil, lawful and chaotic. Even a holy paladin will pray to Beshuba or Shar during times of bad luck or loss, so its not like the evil gods want to destroy all Good aligned people.
And Lolth hasn't "forgiven" any good characters that I'm aware of - she's gone out of her way to try and corrupt Drizz't on more than one occasion, bring back into the fold, and hasn't exactly lifted the general "kill the good drow traitors, get benefits" stance, which includes Drizz't. He's not the Chosen of Lolth, the drow just think he is because he's managed to survive so long, and they can't comprehend that their goddess would allow it; the idea that Lolth doesn't have a choice is simply inconceivable to many drow.
Pre-5E I would say Lolth was absolutely CE. In 5E, she's not evil in the way the new core rulebooks define a character/entity of evil alignment — she's beyond selfish. And by beyond, I mean she exists outside the description of evil as selfish. Her motivations are far more complex than self-soothing techniques.
Besides which, as far as I can remember I never prescribed to the idea that a deity or entity could ever neatly "fit" into an alignment. Lolth is Loth. in the same way that Tempus is Tempus. Even he has gone through some changes. When he first emerged in the Forgotten Realms he was perceived as bloodthirsty, and now he has a broader portfolio, and a larger role as a god of war. He is an embodiment of the various aspects of warfare, much more interesting than a deity with tunnel vision.
I was just making a case for Loth being more than an "evil" deity. She isn't a caricature, predictable or rigid. She is, oddly enough, IMO, a fluid being that applies pressure to her followers as it suits her whim. Good, she will never be. Neutral? On occasion she has done nothing, so yes, she can be. She isn't clairvoyant, yet she understands the subtle ways flawed people can be manipulated. She manipulates through a variety of emotional mechanisms, including stereotypes, racism, sexism, and yes, tropes, to exploit advantage.
I think that's more of a function of character depth - the alignments are very broad and shallow, so any amount of depth is going to break from the nine alignment stereotypes. If Orcus or Pazuzu had as much material behind him as Lolth, then he'd be just as deep, non-conforming, and complex.
The problem I have is, honestly, is that it seems that we're presenting Lolth as a stereotype of Chaotic alignment now, instead of Evil, and that's kind of breaking from the Spider Queen's persona. I can see objecting to fitting the Spider Queen into a tightly fit box of "Chaotic Evil" and portraying a two dimensional characture, but that's something that we should object to with all characters, be they gods, spirits or mortals.
Lolth's appeal is strongly tied to the fact that she's the goddess of a group of exotic, sexy elf assassin types. She's an elf, she's the ultimate D&D bad girl, she's an edgy black widow killer, and she's in charge of a city filled with enough intrigue to make Game of Thrones look tame. That's a lot of very popular archetypes all mixed together. Couple the above with exposure from novels and the drift into pop culture*, and that's a huge recipe for appeal to a lot of different people.
Sure, a lot of people love the idea of the bad girl (and bad boy) doing a Heel Face Turn, not going around kicking puppies and not being entirely bad, that's part of the whole appeal of bad girls and bad boys in fiction. But I think the not-murdering-Good-people is more of a function of Game of Thrones-like intrigue, rather than anything related to being chaotic.
* I have gaming friends who never played D&D, no idea who Lolth is, but are more than familiar with the archetype of shadowy, spider-themed dark elves.
When you get farther into the Salvatorre books, you will see my points more clearly. There's a lot of development there.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Personally, Lolth is a bully, not the ultimate bad girl. In her early years, she was a man-hater, but that changed, and it changed for a variety of reasons. That being said, in her current 5E representation she is much more complex. She isn't driven by all-men-are-evil-and-must-be-crushed attitude. She uses men and women alike to further her goals. She gives female drow the most power and grants them access to the highest spells because that's what she wants. Doing so aligns with her goals. Those goals used to include the total destruction of surface evils and Correllon, but that has changed. She has developed enough insight (developed by RA Salvatore and Elaine Cunningham) to know that she needs Correllon to achieve her goals. Without him, without the surface elves, without racism, she becomes something different — reduced to something different — and to my knowledge (books, articles, core rulebooks, included) she isn't going to give up the sophisticated chaos she's developed. Some of the drow have abandoned her ways, and some of the surface elves serve chaos and/or evil. This is not to say that those elves and drow that turn away from racial inclinations are somehow different. The ebony skin isn't the color of Lolth. It's an evolutionary advantage the drow developed; they darkened over time. Mordenkainen's sort of kind of touched on this, but avoided an explicit explanation. I like what has been done with Lolth, and I like what's been done with male drow; they're not second-class citizens anymore. They serve a purpose, and much more than procreation.
When you get farther into the Salvatorre books, you will see my points more clearly. There's a lot of development there.
....
You know, its really a pet peeve of mine when someone disagrees with another, that someone is basically accused of ignorance. If only they read or learned as much, surely they would agree. That's just insulting.
I've read the books. Your points don't mesh with what I've seen with Lolth not only in the Drizz't books, as well as ones such as the Lady Penitent, source books like Drow of the Underdark and adventures, like the recent one where she tried to steal the Weave from Mystra in Faerun (I forget the name of it).
I understand plenty. We're just going to have to agree to disagree here.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
When you get farther into the Salvatorre books, you will see my points more clearly. There's a lot of development there.
....
You know, its really a pet peeve of mine when someone disagrees with another, that someone is basically accused of ignorance. If only they read or learned as much, surely they would agree. That's just insulting.
I've read the books. Your points don't mesh with what I've seen with Lolth not only in the Drizz't books, as well as ones such as the Lady Penitent, source books like Drow of the Underdark and adventures, like the recent one where she tried to steal the Weave from Mystra in Faerun (I forget the name of it).
I understand plenty. We're just going to have to agree to disagree here.
I think everyone on this thread has made equally valid points. Please, continue. We're all allies in dice here ;)
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The way I tend to do my character's backstories, are I have a concept in mind. I know what I want out of my character, then I ask "How does he get here?". Working backwards helps everything line up. I really like how Elaine Cunningham wrote Liriel Baenre. She starts off pretty evil, and is definitely interested in power. Then she meets a human barbarian who starts to influence her. She starts off her journey looking to preserve her power, and slowly learns to see the value of trust and learns to love. I like it far better than Drizzt's "never learned evil because of daddy". Hallistra Melarn from War of the Spider Queen is an example of a character learning to be...not so evil.
Perhaps your character or character's mother is captured on a surface raid, or perhaps betrayed and left on the surface. After spending time with the surface elves, there's been a fundamental change in thinking after seeing how trust allows a team to do things an individual could never accomplish.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
You're welcome. My curiosity has pulled up a chair and my imagination has lit a few torches. Now, I must wait for the telling of this tale you eventually will tell.
Lolth... not evil? Bwa? She's always seemed extremely evil to me, even to the point of edging away from Chaotic territory, closer to Lawful, given her perchance for tyrannical rule - the only reason that drow civilization hasn't devolved into a huge mess is because Lolth forcefully holds it together.
I see her as definitely evil. I can see the veneer of law, but, the rules are there to exploit to gain power. That's where the chaos comes in. As long as nobody /sees/ it, it never happened...even when everyone knows it happened and who did it. The rule really is...don't get caught. The chaos is what Lolth thives on. For example, looking back to the first of the Dark Elf trilogy which I thought you said you had read, Lolth never punished Drizzt for not killing the elf child. Lolth simply dropped a dime via her Yochlol about it, then kicked back and enjoyed the show as Malice scrambled to regain Lolth's favor. Later on, Lolth gave Malice her "greatest gift", Zin-Carla to help hunt Drizzt down. Again, Lolth got bored with the status-quo, and stirred the pot again, then kicked back to watch the drama play out.
Jarlaxle is another example. He doesn't play by any of the rules, and Lolth does nothing about it. He's an agent of chaos. Everywhere he goes, things move and shake, and Lolth loves that. For good or ill, she doesn't care, provided she's interested. She's an instigator of the highest order, without the burden of morality. She just wants to be entertained. The "rules" only exist to make chaos happen. As long as you entertain her, you can toss the rules out the window...but you'd better be entertaining.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
All good points crzyhawk and Mephista...
I've been around the Table for a long time. I have decades of D&D lore in my head. The mythology presented in Mordenkainen's is on point, I especially enjoy the elven war. That history alone gives a fuller, richer history to the elves and the drow. They seem less like Vulcans and Romulans now, and more like races unto themselves.
Pre-5E I would say Lolth was absolutely CE. In 5E, she's not evil in the way the new core rulebooks define a character/entity of evil alignment — she's beyond selfish. And by beyond, I mean she exists outside the description of evil as selfish. Her motivations are far more complex than self-soothing techniques.
Besides which, as far as I can remember I never prescribed to the idea that a deity or entity could ever neatly "fit" into an alignment. Lolth is Loth. in the same way that Tempus is Tempus. Even he has gone through some changes. When he first emerged in the Forgotten Realms he was perceived as bloodthirsty, and now he has a broader portfolio, and a larger role as a god of war. He is an embodiment of the various aspects of warfare, much more interesting than a deity with tunnel vision.
I was just making a case for Loth being more than an "evil" deity. She isn't a caricature, predictable or rigid. She is, oddly enough, IMO, a fluid being that applies pressure to her followers as it suits her whim. Good, she will never be. Neutral? On occasion she has done nothing, so yes, she can be. She isn't clairvoyant, yet she understands the subtle ways flawed people can be manipulated. She manipulates through a variety of emotional mechanisms, including stereotypes, racism, sexism, and yes, tropes, to exploit advantage.
I will say that I can see Lolth being more forgiving to "good" characters than many other evil deities, if for no other reason than she is also a goddess of Chaos. Being outside the box fits right in with her.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I'd just like to leave a general note expressing how much I appreciate all of the very, very good discussion from all the participants: AdventureHalz, crzyhawk, mephista, GiantOctopodes, you guys have broadened my horizons and educated me in many ways. Thank you. You guys alone have justified what I paid for D&D Beyond :)
My thoughts are that the Gods exist not to have created anything, but they arise to explain reality as it is. They provide the "first cause" that allows an otherwise inscrutable world to make sense, and that is all a god really has to do: Without a fundamental agent of Chaos, how can a new mother understand how the world could take the life of her innocent infant, born frail? How can a father understand why his only son and heir remained on the battlefield, of a war in which neither had an interest? And it shouldn't be limited to just chaos: If there were no gods of Duty and other lofty things, how can it be believed that a Paladin would defend and ultimately fall, protecting the those that could not protect themselves and have no hope of repaying him? Why do all these things happen, when perhaps all other paths of reasoning say they shouldn't?
The gods exist and have such power because all the other universes in which they didn't... couldn't exist.
So I can totally buy the idea that Lolth really doesn't care about good or evil; her job is to make all the impossible things in the world that we already see that seems to defy all logic and we cannot fathom why it would be... to make sense. An innocent babe died, cheated out of 80 years after only a few days? Don't wrack your brain, it was Lolth. Or Loki. Or Set. Or whoever. Son died in a senseless war? Damn it, it was the will of Ares. I think that is how people would have to think in a world in which magic exists and is devoid of the Rational Inquiry of the Scientific Method.
Just my $.02
When you get farther into the Salvatorre books, you will see my points more clearly. There's a lot of development there.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Personally, Lolth is a bully, not the ultimate bad girl. In her early years, she was a man-hater, but that changed, and it changed for a variety of reasons. That being said, in her current 5E representation she is much more complex. She isn't driven by all-men-are-evil-and-must-be-crushed attitude. She uses men and women alike to further her goals. She gives female drow the most power and grants them access to the highest spells because that's what she wants. Doing so aligns with her goals. Those goals used to include the total destruction of surface evils and Correllon, but that has changed. She has developed enough insight (developed by RA Salvatore and Elaine Cunningham) to know that she needs Correllon to achieve her goals. Without him, without the surface elves, without racism, she becomes something different — reduced to something different — and to my knowledge (books, articles, core rulebooks, included) she isn't going to give up the sophisticated chaos she's developed. Some of the drow have abandoned her ways, and some of the surface elves serve chaos and/or evil. This is not to say that those elves and drow that turn away from racial inclinations are somehow different. The ebony skin isn't the color of Lolth. It's an evolutionary advantage the drow developed; they darkened over time. Mordenkainen's sort of kind of touched on this, but avoided an explicit explanation. I like what has been done with Lolth, and I like what's been done with male drow; they're not second-class citizens anymore. They serve a purpose, and much more than procreation.
I thought you had said that you had only gotten to starless night. If I misunderstood that, my apologies are offered.
EDIT: it was Mendira that said they were just starting Starless Night. I was confused on which poster was not read up. No offense was intended.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha