Lately I've been running campaigns for two different d&d groups that I DM for. They both work extremely well together and because of their sheer differences in characters and the amount of playing time they've put in, I'm having a hard time finding campaigns/monsters that can actually put up a fight.
For example, the last campaign I put a God Blessed Statue holding a long sword that I knew one of the players would want. I made it so he'd have to throw a NAT 20 to pry to sword free and he failed to do so. However, my other players then worked together, using theirbcombined strength as well as their mounts strength to drag the statue somewhere where they could try again at a different point of time.
I'm hoping to find a campaign/enemies that can actually cause my players some worry when they come up against it. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Player cleverness ought be encouraged and promoted whenever possible, as too often these days, there doesn't appear to be enough of it. But when it comes to cheekiness, there are many ways around their antics. Traps are one way. Anticipate what a player will do to capitalize on the rules as written, as they did with carry/lift/drag weight limitations in game in your above scenario, and set a trap that will activate upon receiving stimulus from that anticipated action.
In your above example, you could have had your statue sitting on a pressure plate. When the weight of the statue of was removed from the plate, it would have activated the trap.
There's also ye olde parental law. While I don't encourage this particular method, it is still an option: when your players try something you very clearly do no want them doing, tell them they can't, because you said so.
I completely agree that they should be clever and would much rather them figure out an unexpected way out than a more conventional way, but when they find every loop hole possible, making many of my planned possibilities useless, it becomes frustrating.
I never thought of putting traps beneath or around things that I don't want them getting around though, that is a good idea
And just because (aside from sharks) they're my current obsession for moment: Mimics. That statue? A mimic, just waiting for someone to be Mr. Clever Dick. Recognizing it was outnumbered, it would have just forked over the treasure without revealing itself out of self preservation. But when they started tying ropes to it and trying to drag it from it home to gods-know-where? Monster mode time.
Depending on how mean I am feeling I inject some likely but unintended outcomes. In the scenario given, while being dragged the statue falls over, landing on the players, gets stuck, breaking ropes, sword gets battered around in the process making it useless, the noise attracts city militia, wakes up the snoozing earth elemental which was chilling underneath, ghost of hero the statue commemorates takes exception and haunts players, god patron of hero portrayed in statue gets annoyed and brings statue to life. It might attack them, it might just follow them around until it gets it's sword back.o m
If the party cast animate object and had the statue walk with them to a secluded spot and hand over the sword I'd applaud and grant inspiration.
Cleverness is good, what irritates me is repetitive use of the same tactic.
All my players are smarterer than me, except for when it comes to traps, or knowing their characters, or knowing the basic rules, or interpreting clues, or figuring out the tactics of enemies, or of creatively applying in game knowledge to solutions, or coming up with solutions at all, or of avoiding creating more problems, or...
...ah screw it, I want your players.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
Resource burners: A resource burner is a situation that is intended to burn a certain number of resources and fills a similar roll to a trash mob, except with more predictable results, for instance a toxic cloud inside an active volcano or diseases swamp. You then call for a series of saving throws for the characters to pass through the swamp, and someone ends up burning potions or spell slots or (if you are feeling generous, some hit-dice) to heal back to full. Also, ambush predators tend to hang out in places like this, and forcing a con save every round for combat can be quite brutal. Something like a bog counts as difficult terrain, so -50% movement, and if they are heavily encumbered (carrying a giant pillar of marble) then, -50% more. That's a lot of saves. Even DC12/13 con saves will represent a serious obstacle to most parties, after a dozen or more saving throws multiplied by the number of players... and if 2d10 poison is not scary enough, try exhaustion instead, after that junk coats the inside of their lungs and stays there. 6 failed saves is equivalent to death, removing a level of exhaustion costs a high level slot and (if it's urgent enough) forces an extra save in the death room.
Misdirection: DM "you find a bag of holding." (it's not really a bag of holding.) Effective use of mimics is a good example of this (the door does not appear to be trapped...). The magic animating your pillar/sword could have been something else/ somewhere else so that once they moved the pillar, removing the sword would become trivially easy, but of course the sword isn't magical at all!...
Traps are fun. Get creative with your traps, but more importantly instill fear in the party. "Which way do you turn the knob?" "So... you TOUCH the suit of armor?" "So, you enter the room without striking up a light source?" No matter how smart a party is, these questions don't have right or wrong answers...Sure, there are ways around these things... but that's kindof the point...
______________
P.S. I tend to not put anything in front of my players that I don't WANT THEM to have. There are enough scary things around with claws that spit acid or whatever, that whenever they do come across a high-level humanoid ostensibly in-charge so to speak, I expect that humanoid to die. Same goes for magically incarnate divine pillars of whatever. Dragons and their loot hordes. etc. Some NPCs will bargain with the players (you want this sword, you've got to kill the dude who imprisoned me here (etc.) But the rule is that if I put it in front of them, it's theirs for the taking. How they go about doing the taking, that's up to them.
P.S.S building on what Sam Hein had said, what if the divine pillar had been set there to guard something? Your players might have just triggered a pandora's box type situation by dragging that guardian away from his station. Who knows, maybe the pillar immediately transforms into a new NPC ally (screaming "What have you DONE!!! ) while all kinds of horrors just explode from a vault that he had been entrusted to maintain/protect. Now, not only do the PC's not get the sword(unless they still want to fight the angel for it; the CR level might have gone up since they last looked) but presumably they get to clean up their own mess aswell! These are the types of situations that you pray for as a DM because it allows for you to alter the status quo. Before, the forest outside of town was filled with orcs and owlbears.... now it's filled with 3 headed birds, draug and murderous trees!
Traps are fun. Get creative with your traps, but more importantly instill fear in the party. "Which way do you turn the knob?" "So... you TOUCH the suit of armor?" "So, you enter the room without striking up a light source?" No matter how smart a party is, these questions don't have right or wrong answers...Sure, there are ways around these things... but that's kindof the point...
Randomly rolling a d20 behind your DM screen when a player decides on an action is also a good tactic. The dice result doesn't matter, because it isn't really attached to anything; you just roll it, give a short pause while you "look over the result" and then tell the players "nevermind, you're good... for now". But your players will think it is, and so start second guessing their initial decisions.
I have a group of 6 players who are, to both my amusement and chagrin, amazing 90% of the time. I warned them before we started playing that I've been a DM for around 32 years, and a player for about 6 games that never concluded. They're also all close friends who know how creative I can be and try to read between the lines in everything I do. They spend every session trying to figure out what's going on, what they've missed, and trying to "outwit" me. That's not to say I'm always trying to pull the wool over their eyes, but they have learned that not everything is as it seems, so be thinking about all the implications of your words and actions. It's such a blessing to be able to flex your creative muscles, so your plight is not uncommon for me to run into, which leads to:
P.S. I tend to not put anything in front of my players that I don't WANT THEM to have.
P.S.S building on what Sam Hein had said, what if the divine pillar had been set there to guard something? Your players might have just triggered a pandora's box type situation by dragging that guardian away from his station.
This right here is what I love, the "best of intentions" scenario. As a DM you are not stuck to the script, at any point in time you can change something. You essentially gave them the sword when you presented it as a goal. The piece that was missing was the problem, without a problem there was no challenge, thus they got the sword with no issue. A die roll is not a problem, there is no thought to a die roll, there is no solution to a die roll, and there's no story to a die roll.
Why was the statue holding the sword? Why would the statue not let go of the sword prior to them attempting to? Who built the statue? Who crafted the sword? Who cast the enchantment on the statue and sword. What purpose did the sword have before the party came along?
With those types of questions asked, you then formulate all the things that can slow the players down. The statue was holding the sword until someone of the bloodline of it's creator came along to claim it. Only the strongest and purest of the bloodline would succeed. This weapon was crafted as a defender against a beast that returns every 13th generation, the greatest warlocks put together their patron's energies to fuse the magic to the blade. Now you have a sword that when it is released speaks omen of a beast of great power awakening. Maybe a challenge of acceptance from the various patrons who imbued their power into the weapon. A challenge to prove you are the strongest of the bloodline, etc, etc.
----
Challenging your players requires not thinking about your players, it comes from creating the creatures/encounters/experiences in such a way that you are trying to win. I almost beat a group of 5 level 5 players with 10 goblins. A fight that should have been easy but the goblins were defending their home, so they had home field advantage, and a desire to defend their home. The dice may decide the hit or miss, but the goblins knew the caves and routes thus flanking, height advantage, guerrilla tactics, etc. caused the fight to be that much harder. Yea goblins aren't extremely smart, but that doesn't mean they don't know how to use the bit of smarts they have to the fullest. Traps, environment, unexpected visitors, and latent repercussions to actions all make challenging scenarios as well.
Lately I've been running campaigns for two different d&d groups that I DM for. They both work extremely well together and because of their sheer differences in characters and the amount of playing time they've put in, I'm having a hard time finding campaigns/monsters that can actually put up a fight.
For example, the last campaign I put a God Blessed Statue holding a long sword that I knew one of the players would want. I made it so he'd have to throw a NAT 20 to pry to sword free and he failed to do so. However, my other players then worked together, using theirbcombined strength as well as their mounts strength to drag the statue somewhere where they could try again at a different point of time.
I'm hoping to find a campaign/enemies that can actually cause my players some worry when they come up against it. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Player cleverness ought be encouraged and promoted whenever possible, as too often these days, there doesn't appear to be enough of it. But when it comes to cheekiness, there are many ways around their antics. Traps are one way. Anticipate what a player will do to capitalize on the rules as written, as they did with carry/lift/drag weight limitations in game in your above scenario, and set a trap that will activate upon receiving stimulus from that anticipated action.
In your above example, you could have had your statue sitting on a pressure plate. When the weight of the statue of was removed from the plate, it would have activated the trap.
There's also ye olde parental law. While I don't encourage this particular method, it is still an option: when your players try something you very clearly do no want them doing, tell them they can't, because you said so.
I reiterate: I do not encourage that last method.
Ongoing Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters
I completely agree that they should be clever and would much rather them figure out an unexpected way out than a more conventional way, but when they find every loop hole possible, making many of my planned possibilities useless, it becomes frustrating.
I never thought of putting traps beneath or around things that I don't want them getting around though, that is a good idea
And just because (aside from sharks) they're my current obsession for moment: Mimics. That statue? A mimic, just waiting for someone to be Mr. Clever Dick. Recognizing it was outnumbered, it would have just forked over the treasure without revealing itself out of self preservation. But when they started tying ropes to it and trying to drag it from it home to gods-know-where? Monster mode time.
Ongoing Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters
Depending on how mean I am feeling I inject some likely but unintended outcomes. In the scenario given, while being dragged the statue falls over, landing on the players, gets stuck, breaking ropes, sword gets battered around in the process making it useless, the noise attracts city militia, wakes up the snoozing earth elemental which was chilling underneath, ghost of hero the statue commemorates takes exception and haunts players, god patron of hero portrayed in statue gets annoyed and brings statue to life. It might attack them, it might just follow them around until it gets it's sword back.o m
If the party cast animate object and had the statue walk with them to a secluded spot and hand over the sword I'd applaud and grant inspiration.
Cleverness is good, what irritates me is repetitive use of the same tactic.
All my players are smarterer than me, except for when it comes to traps, or knowing their characters, or knowing the basic rules, or interpreting clues, or figuring out the tactics of enemies, or of creatively applying in game knowledge to solutions, or coming up with solutions at all, or of avoiding creating more problems, or...
...ah screw it, I want your players.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
Some tricks I use to slow my players down:
Resource burners: A resource burner is a situation that is intended to burn a certain number of resources and fills a similar roll to a trash mob, except with more predictable results, for instance a toxic cloud inside an active volcano or diseases swamp. You then call for a series of saving throws for the characters to pass through the swamp, and someone ends up burning potions or spell slots or (if you are feeling generous, some hit-dice) to heal back to full. Also, ambush predators tend to hang out in places like this, and forcing a con save every round for combat can be quite brutal. Something like a bog counts as difficult terrain, so -50% movement, and if they are heavily encumbered (carrying a giant pillar of marble) then, -50% more. That's a lot of saves. Even DC12/13 con saves will represent a serious obstacle to most parties, after a dozen or more saving throws multiplied by the number of players... and if 2d10 poison is not scary enough, try exhaustion instead, after that junk coats the inside of their lungs and stays there. 6 failed saves is equivalent to death, removing a level of exhaustion costs a high level slot and (if it's urgent enough) forces an extra save in the death room.
Misdirection: DM "you find a bag of holding." (it's not really a bag of holding.) Effective use of mimics is a good example of this (the door does not appear to be trapped...). The magic animating your pillar/sword could have been something else/ somewhere else so that once they moved the pillar, removing the sword would become trivially easy, but of course the sword isn't magical at all!...
Traps are fun. Get creative with your traps, but more importantly instill fear in the party. "Which way do you turn the knob?" "So... you TOUCH the suit of armor?" "So, you enter the room without striking up a light source?" No matter how smart a party is, these questions don't have right or wrong answers...Sure, there are ways around these things... but that's kindof the point...
______________
P.S. I tend to not put anything in front of my players that I don't WANT THEM to have. There are enough scary things around with claws that spit acid or whatever, that whenever they do come across a high-level humanoid ostensibly in-charge so to speak, I expect that humanoid to die. Same goes for magically incarnate divine pillars of whatever. Dragons and their loot hordes. etc. Some NPCs will bargain with the players (you want this sword, you've got to kill the dude who imprisoned me here (etc.) But the rule is that if I put it in front of them, it's theirs for the taking. How they go about doing the taking, that's up to them.
P.S.S building on what Sam Hein had said, what if the divine pillar had been set there to guard something? Your players might have just triggered a pandora's box type situation by dragging that guardian away from his station. Who knows, maybe the pillar immediately transforms into a new NPC ally (screaming "What have you DONE!!! ) while all kinds of horrors just explode from a vault that he had been entrusted to maintain/protect. Now, not only do the PC's not get the sword(unless they still want to fight the angel for it; the CR level might have gone up since they last looked) but presumably they get to clean up their own mess aswell! These are the types of situations that you pray for as a DM because it allows for you to alter the status quo. Before, the forest outside of town was filled with orcs and owlbears.... now it's filled with 3 headed birds, draug and murderous trees!
Ongoing Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters
I have a group of 6 players who are, to both my amusement and chagrin, amazing 90% of the time. I warned them before we started playing that I've been a DM for around 32 years, and a player for about 6 games that never concluded. They're also all close friends who know how creative I can be and try to read between the lines in everything I do. They spend every session trying to figure out what's going on, what they've missed, and trying to "outwit" me. That's not to say I'm always trying to pull the wool over their eyes, but they have learned that not everything is as it seems, so be thinking about all the implications of your words and actions. It's such a blessing to be able to flex your creative muscles, so your plight is not uncommon for me to run into, which leads to:
So what've we got so far?
Ongoing Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters
Ongoing Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters