I'm the DM for an Eberron campaign, and a player is telling me he wants to play a changeling rogue, pretending to be a human. We've discussed it, and he's planning to have a "Human" character sheet, and his real changeling sheet. We're planning to try to keep it secret as long as possible, but as changelings keep all of their characteristics, this means there are some differences between the two sheets. Most notably, the changeling sheet has 1 more proficiency than the human sheet. Any tips for what I should do?
Are you very concerned that other players will be examining the sheet that carefully? I guess some groups are like that, but I really wouldn’t worry too much. Or you can always tell the other players, and leave it to them to role play their characters not knowing. Keeping secrets from players is not the same as keeping secrets from characters. At some point, you need to trust the players to play the game.
I wouldn't bother with secret sheets or keeping a party members race a "secret" to the party. Your party should be able to play just fine with the meta knowledge that the player in question is playing a changeling but their characters only know them as a human. Otherwise, if the character ever uses their main changeling ability, what you're going to have them make checks for stealth to sneak off and play they're angle in side notes? The measures taken to keep a secret that will likely be underwhelming or discouraging to the party (a la "The DM had this little side thing going and the jokes on you). This sorta stuff is common practice among DMs and players who haven't yet learned to differentiate between what's "fun that's good for the game" and "fun at the expense of the game." Focus on the game you're playing with other players not some secret side show so you and a player can have a secret.
i play with a mixed group including some very young players. We have characters who are actually have evil secret agendas that aren't so much at cross purposes but use the party's overall good intentions as "cover" behind which they may hide their agenda. And we just talk about this at the table knowing that unless otherwise disclosed this aspect is outside the knowledge of most of the player's characters (some characters know the other character is up to something, but haven't figure it out yet). And we all have a good time.
You're sorta meta splitting the party, you have the bulk of your players playing the game and another player whose actual game is concealing a secret about their sheet. The payoff is "meh" for that level of orchestration and compartmentalization.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Are you very concerned that other players will be examining the sheet that carefully? I guess some groups are like that, but I really wouldn’t worry too much. Or you can always tell the other players, and leave it to them to role play their characters not knowing. Keeping secrets from players is not the same as keeping secrets from characters. At some point, you need to trust the players to play the game.
I wouldn't bother with secret sheets or keeping a party members race a "secret" to the party. Your party should be able to play just fine with the meta knowledge that the player in question is playing a changeling but their characters only know them as a human. Otherwise, if the character ever uses their main changeling ability, what you're going to have them make checks for stealth to sneak off and play they're angle in side notes? The measures taken to keep a secret that will likely be underwhelming or discouraging to the party (a la "The DM had this little side thing going and the jokes on you). This sorta stuff is common practice among DMs and players who haven't yet learned to differentiate between what's "fun that's good for the game" and "fun at the expense of the game." Focus on the game you're playing with other players not some secret side show so you and a player can have a secret.
Thanks for the feedback! The first session is in a couple of days, so I will contact him. This is helpful info.
Are you very concerned that other players will be examining the sheet that carefully? I guess some groups are like that, but I really wouldn’t worry too much. Or you can always tell the other players, and leave it to them to role play their characters not knowing. Keeping secrets from players is not the same as keeping secrets from characters. At some point, you need to trust the players to play the game.
I wouldn't bother with secret sheets or keeping a party members race a "secret" to the party. Your party should be able to play just fine with the meta knowledge that the player in question is playing a changeling but their characters only know them as a human. Otherwise, if the character ever uses their main changeling ability, what you're going to have them make checks for stealth to sneak off and play they're angle in side notes? The measures taken to keep a secret that will likely be underwhelming or discouraging to the party (a la "The DM had this little side thing going and the jokes on you). This sorta stuff is common practice among DMs and players who haven't yet learned to differentiate between what's "fun that's good for the game" and "fun at the expense of the game." Focus on the game you're playing with other players not some secret side show so you and a player can have a secret.
Thanks for the feedback! The first session is in a couple of days, so I will contact him. This is helpful info.
Yeah, the "ethics" of this re: the rest of the table aside, simply you as DM are giving yourself extra work, ultimately to keep just one player entertained.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Oh boy. A Changeling and a rogue AND they want to start the game keeping secrets from other players..? This is setting off all my 'problem player' alarm bells
I'm the DM for an Eberron campaign, and a player is telling me he wants to play a changeling rogue, pretending to be a human. We've discussed it, and he's planning to have a "Human" character sheet, and his real changeling sheet. We're planning to try to keep it secret as long as possible, but as changelings keep all of their characteristics, this means there are some differences between the two sheets. Most notably, the changeling sheet has 1 more proficiency than the human sheet. Any tips for what I should do?
Why do other players have access to the player's character sheet? Players are unlikely to be counting the number of skills other players are proficient in. In any case, my experience is that secrets like this don't work very well, because you can't actually do anything interesting with the secret without making it obvious to the other players.
Oh boy. A Changeling and a rogue AND they want to start the game keeping secrets from other players..? This is setting off all my 'problem player' alarm bells
Eh, it could be a problem player, but IME it's frequently just not appreciating the difference between a novel and an RPG.
I'm playing in one campaign and DMing in another in the my player campaign I am actually playing as a changeling an artificer not a rogue but changeling nonetheless. The way that my DM and I handled it was by my character Zin simply not telling the characters that she was a changeling she appeared perfectly human. Until something stressful enough occurred that she started having trouble concentrating on keeping her mask up. At that time I rolled a die on a table of features and the the characters that were able to see me were asked to roll perception and they had to roll fairly high to actually notice that (That first time her ears changed to be half-elf) only one pc immediately noticed and so it became a puzzle to those that were paying attention. Eventually Zin trusted the other characters enough to tell them but in the beginning it was a matter of the color of her hair would randomly change or her skin tones shifted slightly and it may or may not get noticed and anytime new character joins a session or two it's always fun to see what they notice and what they think is going on.
I disagree with MidnightPlat's suggestion of trusting players with the meta information and counting on them not letting that color their characters' choices. Yes, there are players who are capable of dividing reality from the game sufficiently to prevent contamination of this kind of meta information, but a whole lot of them cannot. If your player really wants it to be a secret or if they think it would be a fun, flavorful surprise when the information is revealed, they should try to keep it a secret as best they can.
The problem you are going to run into is not any in-game abilities--the shapeshifting ability of a Changeling is the one that would get them discovered. The rest are fairly innocuous--they get an additional language and some proficiency bonuses, but those are easy enough to come by with backgrounds and it's not like anyone is going to be trying to reverse engineer a character's abilities to see if they are playing the race they say they are.
Your big problem is going to be if you are using D&D Beyond and are all in a campaign together, since it says race/class on the campaign's page. This, however, is an easy problem to solve. Start by creating a custom race that is just a copy of Changeling. Name the custom race Human. Set the character's sheet to private so only the DM and player can see that it is not actually a human. Easy solution that keeps the information hidden without requiring an additional character sheet.
I disagree with MidnightPlat's suggestion of trusting players with the meta information and counting on them not letting that color their characters' choices. Yes, there are players who are capable of dividing reality from the game sufficiently to prevent contamination of this kind of meta information, but a whole lot of them cannot. If your player really wants it to be a secret or if they think it would be a fun, flavorful surprise when the information is revealed, they should try to keep it a secret as best they can.
Do tell me exactly how the rest of the table knowing the character is a changeling is going to ruin the game for anyone, except a player whose vanity insists on a "secret" (not integral to the plot) so they may have a reveal at the party's success. This is just ego-stroking and forcing the DM to play "special, just for me" with one player. I mean exactly how does "contamination" hurt the game?
I've floated stuff like this with Fey'ri (basically Elf Tieflings though Abyssal not Infernal) who have the capacity to simply present as an "elf" not a elf/demon hybrid in a manner similar to the changeling. Those who wanted to be super secret about it required both player and DM to suck up a lot of air in the room playing "coy" with "the truth," whereas the worst thing that happened when the players were aware a player was playing a Fey're was a "I dont suppose your character has some sort of fiendish trick up their sleeve to help us out here?" to which the player responded "not at this time" (and yeah, the race didn't have the deus ex machina the questioner was looking for). Metamaturity, to coin a word, ain't that hard and frankly in cases like these its usually DMs who need to grow it.
The problem you are going to run into is not any in-game abilities--the shapeshifting ability of a Changeling is the one that would get them discovered. The rest are fairly innocuous--they get an additional language and some proficiency bonuses, but those are easy enough to come by with backgrounds and it's not like anyone is going to be trying to reverse engineer a character's abilities to see if they are playing the race they say they are.
Your big problem is going to be if you are using D&D Beyond and are all in a campaign together, since it says race/class on the campaign's page. This, however, is an easy problem to solve. Start by creating a custom race that is just a copy of Changeling. Name the custom race Human. Set the character's sheet to private so only the DM and player can see that it is not actually a human. Easy solution that keeps the information hidden without requiring an additional character sheet.
Just want to point out you like literally rehashed the OP in twice the amount of language.... The bold is a solution though the players you complain about will likely think the mysterious locked from their eyes character sheet is a little 'sus, so you're just perpetuating the bad faith dynamic I already laid out.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I have been in games where people had secrets and it worked well, but those were games where everyone had secrets, and there was a lot of people going and having private side conversations with the GM (and they weren't run with D&D, though they probably could have been).
Well, there's the point I made in my initial post--that it could be kind of fun to have that information revealed down the line and come as a surprise to everyone in the party. Surprising moments like revealing a character isn't who everyone thought they were can lead to interesting RP moments and some of the more memorable experiences in the game. Having that be telegraphed in advance takes the punch out of the moment and reduces the player's shock, thus coloring how their characters might react to the information.
Or perhaps there is a stigma against Changelings in this particular campaign that the DM wants to explore, and having a party be a hidden Changeling to be revealed at a future date helps advance the story.
Or maybe the Changeling has some cause to be antagonistic to the party (provided you are in a group that is fine with that), and keeping their abilities secret plays a part in their goals.
Or perhaps the DM thinks 20 seconds of homebrewing is worth hours of a player finding it fun to pass as something they are not.
There are dozens of story and just general "I want my players to have fun" reasons why a DM might want to do this. Clearly the OP thinks this would benefit the campaign and/or does not trust his party to not use metainformation. I'd rather tell them a way to do what they want in as convenient a manner as possible, rather than post something telling them "you are wrong for DMing the way you want to DM."
As for your second point, I very clearly did not rehash the OP, which stated there would be two character sheets. Instead, I offered a real, streamlined solution--something that would visually create the illusion of "human" without having to create and maintain two character sheets.
You can also solve the final problem you raised by telling everyone to keep their character sheet private. Frankly, I prefer doing it that way when I DM--there's really no reason a player needs to see another's sheet.
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I'm the DM for an Eberron campaign, and a player is telling me he wants to play a changeling rogue, pretending to be a human. We've discussed it, and he's planning to have a "Human" character sheet, and his real changeling sheet. We're planning to try to keep it secret as long as possible, but as changelings keep all of their characteristics, this means there are some differences between the two sheets. Most notably, the changeling sheet has 1 more proficiency than the human sheet. Any tips for what I should do?
Are you very concerned that other players will be examining the sheet that carefully? I guess some groups are like that, but I really wouldn’t worry too much.
Or you can always tell the other players, and leave it to them to role play their characters not knowing. Keeping secrets from players is not the same as keeping secrets from characters. At some point, you need to trust the players to play the game.
I wouldn't bother with secret sheets or keeping a party members race a "secret" to the party. Your party should be able to play just fine with the meta knowledge that the player in question is playing a changeling but their characters only know them as a human. Otherwise, if the character ever uses their main changeling ability, what you're going to have them make checks for stealth to sneak off and play they're angle in side notes? The measures taken to keep a secret that will likely be underwhelming or discouraging to the party (a la "The DM had this little side thing going and the jokes on you). This sorta stuff is common practice among DMs and players who haven't yet learned to differentiate between what's "fun that's good for the game" and "fun at the expense of the game." Focus on the game you're playing with other players not some secret side show so you and a player can have a secret.
i play with a mixed group including some very young players. We have characters who are actually have evil secret agendas that aren't so much at cross purposes but use the party's overall good intentions as "cover" behind which they may hide their agenda. And we just talk about this at the table knowing that unless otherwise disclosed this aspect is outside the knowledge of most of the player's characters (some characters know the other character is up to something, but haven't figure it out yet). And we all have a good time.
You're sorta meta splitting the party, you have the bulk of your players playing the game and another player whose actual game is concealing a secret about their sheet. The payoff is "meh" for that level of orchestration and compartmentalization.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The best answers for “how to” are all compiled in this thread:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/27311-how-to-keep-character-sheets-in-campaign-hidden
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Thanks for the feedback! The first session is in a couple of days, so I will contact him. This is helpful info.
Yeah, the "ethics" of this re: the rest of the table aside, simply you as DM are giving yourself extra work, ultimately to keep just one player entertained.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Oh boy. A Changeling and a rogue AND they want to start the game keeping secrets from other players..? This is setting off all my 'problem player' alarm bells
Why do other players have access to the player's character sheet? Players are unlikely to be counting the number of skills other players are proficient in. In any case, my experience is that secrets like this don't work very well, because you can't actually do anything interesting with the secret without making it obvious to the other players.
Eh, it could be a problem player, but IME it's frequently just not appreciating the difference between a novel and an RPG.
I'm playing in one campaign and DMing in another in the my player campaign I am actually playing as a changeling an artificer not a rogue but changeling nonetheless. The way that my DM and I handled it was by my character Zin simply not telling the characters that she was a changeling she appeared perfectly human. Until something stressful enough occurred that she started having trouble concentrating on keeping her mask up. At that time I rolled a die on a table of features and the the characters that were able to see me were asked to roll perception and they had to roll fairly high to actually notice that (That first time her ears changed to be half-elf) only one pc immediately noticed and so it became a puzzle to those that were paying attention. Eventually Zin trusted the other characters enough to tell them but in the beginning it was a matter of the color of her hair would randomly change or her skin tones shifted slightly and it may or may not get noticed and anytime new character joins a session or two it's always fun to see what they notice and what they think is going on.
Are you sure?!? Their character may be a changeling, but the player is pro’ly human like the rest of us.
(Maintaining you he distinction between Placer and Character makes for better D&D.)
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I disagree with MidnightPlat's suggestion of trusting players with the meta information and counting on them not letting that color their characters' choices. Yes, there are players who are capable of dividing reality from the game sufficiently to prevent contamination of this kind of meta information, but a whole lot of them cannot. If your player really wants it to be a secret or if they think it would be a fun, flavorful surprise when the information is revealed, they should try to keep it a secret as best they can.
The problem you are going to run into is not any in-game abilities--the shapeshifting ability of a Changeling is the one that would get them discovered. The rest are fairly innocuous--they get an additional language and some proficiency bonuses, but those are easy enough to come by with backgrounds and it's not like anyone is going to be trying to reverse engineer a character's abilities to see if they are playing the race they say they are.
Your big problem is going to be if you are using D&D Beyond and are all in a campaign together, since it says race/class on the campaign's page. This, however, is an easy problem to solve. Start by creating a custom race that is just a copy of Changeling. Name the custom race Human. Set the character's sheet to private so only the DM and player can see that it is not actually a human. Easy solution that keeps the information hidden without requiring an additional character sheet.
Do tell me exactly how the rest of the table knowing the character is a changeling is going to ruin the game for anyone, except a player whose vanity insists on a "secret" (not integral to the plot) so they may have a reveal at the party's success. This is just ego-stroking and forcing the DM to play "special, just for me" with one player. I mean exactly how does "contamination" hurt the game?
I've floated stuff like this with Fey'ri (basically Elf Tieflings though Abyssal not Infernal) who have the capacity to simply present as an "elf" not a elf/demon hybrid in a manner similar to the changeling. Those who wanted to be super secret about it required both player and DM to suck up a lot of air in the room playing "coy" with "the truth," whereas the worst thing that happened when the players were aware a player was playing a Fey're was a "I dont suppose your character has some sort of fiendish trick up their sleeve to help us out here?" to which the player responded "not at this time" (and yeah, the race didn't have the deus ex machina the questioner was looking for). Metamaturity, to coin a word, ain't that hard and frankly in cases like these its usually DMs who need to grow it.
Just want to point out you like literally rehashed the OP in twice the amount of language.... The bold is a solution though the players you complain about will likely think the mysterious locked from their eyes character sheet is a little 'sus, so you're just perpetuating the bad faith dynamic I already laid out.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I have been in games where people had secrets and it worked well, but those were games where everyone had secrets, and there was a lot of people going and having private side conversations with the GM (and they weren't run with D&D, though they probably could have been).
(Quotes redacted for sake of brevity)
Well, there's the point I made in my initial post--that it could be kind of fun to have that information revealed down the line and come as a surprise to everyone in the party. Surprising moments like revealing a character isn't who everyone thought they were can lead to interesting RP moments and some of the more memorable experiences in the game. Having that be telegraphed in advance takes the punch out of the moment and reduces the player's shock, thus coloring how their characters might react to the information.
Or perhaps there is a stigma against Changelings in this particular campaign that the DM wants to explore, and having a party be a hidden Changeling to be revealed at a future date helps advance the story.
Or maybe the Changeling has some cause to be antagonistic to the party (provided you are in a group that is fine with that), and keeping their abilities secret plays a part in their goals.
Or perhaps the DM thinks 20 seconds of homebrewing is worth hours of a player finding it fun to pass as something they are not.
There are dozens of story and just general "I want my players to have fun" reasons why a DM might want to do this. Clearly the OP thinks this would benefit the campaign and/or does not trust his party to not use metainformation. I'd rather tell them a way to do what they want in as convenient a manner as possible, rather than post something telling them "you are wrong for DMing the way you want to DM."
As for your second point, I very clearly did not rehash the OP, which stated there would be two character sheets. Instead, I offered a real, streamlined solution--something that would visually create the illusion of "human" without having to create and maintain two character sheets.
You can also solve the final problem you raised by telling everyone to keep their character sheet private. Frankly, I prefer doing it that way when I DM--there's really no reason a player needs to see another's sheet.