Some times my players jump to combat, either not letting me say to roll initiative or cutting me off. One of players keeps trying to cast spells right before I say to roll initiative. I’m confused if there’s an unspoken rule or a rule I haven’t read about this. He argues that he should go first in the initiative since he was the first to react. But I argue that it’s not fair for the other, more introverted, players. What should I do?
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Any time of combat engagement or hostile intent you roll for initiative. There are rules for Suprise but that does NOT give a free attack before initiative.
You just need to explain to the player "That is not how the rules for initiative work and now roll for initiative."
There are rules for Suprise but that does give a free attack before initiative.
From the rules as they are written, this is not correct. There is no free attack before initiative, there is no surprise round. Everyone roles initiative and the surprised enemies have the surprised condition in the first turn of combat and cannot act.
Some times my players jump to combat, either not letting me say to roll initiative or cutting me off. One of players keeps trying to cast spells right before I say to roll initiative. I’m confused if there’s an unspoken rule or a rule I haven’t read about this. He argues that he should go first in the initiative since he was the first to react. But I argue that it’s not fair for the other, more introverted, players. What should I do?
Your player is incorrect. Player reaction time has absolutely nothing to do with how the rules for a combat encounter work. It isn't a matter of which player yells out what they want to do first. You should probably take a few minutes at a session and explain to everyone how combat works.
If one player spontaneously attacks an enemy out of conversation or somthing like that, it is even possible for the DM to decide, that even other players are surprised by the PC's actions and also get the surprised condition.
Letting them draw weapons or foci before initiative starts to conserve action economy is one thing, letting them attack before initiative is something I would recommend against.
Without getting into super-specific examples or circumstances; I have allowed my players to occasionally, and I stress occasionally, take an action prior to initiative (when it is clear initiative will occurr), if the roleplay leading up to it felt as if it warranted such, or if particular circumstances outside of Surprised seemed reasonable. But when I say this, it does not mean they get one, or two, or three full turns before initiative starts. Knowing that this is technically not how initiative works, I typically have them explain to me how and/or what they're attempting as their "pre-initiative" action, which is to say there genuinely are some petulant characters who would act very impulsively (we've all known a character or player like that).
I do not, however, let my players dictate how they get to be placed in initiative.
Ever.
As the DM, even should they make a good argument as to why they should go first, I still exert the control over the game to a respectable degree that no player simply chooses when they choose to go. The occasional times when I have allowed pre-initiative actions, they must still roll initiative prior to completing that action, spell or otherwise, because it is still part of initiative. There are myriad issues with the approach, but they still respect the rules and ruling as adjudicated by the person running the game. If I am being interrupted, or they assume they are in control of initiative (whichever variant being used), I simply remind them, "As the DM, I will decide course by which you, the player, are allowed to interact with the game. My decision is final, and we will continue in a manner consistent with my rulings that don't disrupt the flow of play."
You are the DM, and you should exert your control over the game. The players, ignoring, overshouting, or interrupting you, are only bringing a disruption to the flow of the game with exploiting antics (as to me it seems this is a more than once occasion, hence exploitive). Stand your ground and respectfully remind them of the fact that you make the ultimate ruling.
(Sorry if this post seems confusing, I typed it up in a hurry on my work tablet]
Letting them draw weapons or foci before initiative starts to conserve action economy is one thing, letting them attack before initiative is something I would recommend against.
this is a really, really good point. the player is attempting to gain an advantage but in effect may simply be painting a big target on their squishy self.
it might not hurt to add some high-initiative low-damage ranged enemies (sprite) to the next few encounters or else scatter a few grappling foes (boggle, mud mephit, bone whelk) around. it's hopefully a safer way to show they're putting themselves in danger than to have them focus fired by the more moderate accuracy/damage enemies you probably had planned.
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Some times my players jump to combat, either not letting me say to roll initiative or cutting me off. One of players keeps trying to cast spells right before I say to roll initiative. I’m confused if there’s an unspoken rule or a rule I haven’t read about this. He argues that he should go first in the initiative since he was the first to react. But I argue that it’s not fair for the other, more introverted, players. What should I do?
If he's attempting to do any sort of attack then you are correct and he is completely wrong, others have posted more details on the actual rules.
There's a possibility he could have a good argument if he's trying to do something like fire off a buff spell like Bless, Mage Armor, Haste, etc, or a summon spell, or anything that could conceivably be cast during that space when combat is obviously imminent but not yet started (think a monologuing BBEG or duel countdown, etc). I tend to always allow stuff like that so players (and NPCs) don't need to waste Turn 1 actions on buff spells, but any sort of attack strictly follows the initiative order as rolled.
If you'd like some insight from the game developpers discussion in Dragon Talk: Sage Advice on the subject such as when signaling intent to act and initiative the highlight is that ''The whole system assumes that the instant narrative transitions to violence, everything suddenly pauses'' where it's time to roll initiative, before any attack or action is actually taken.
Tell him Initiative is not based off of "Dibs" but off of the Dice Roll and the character's modifier(s).
But anybody can initiate combat at any time. If he wants to surprise attack NPCs you can allow it. RAW you would have everyone roll initiative and then everyone other than his character has the Surprised condition. So you would bypass everyone who rolled higher than he did. But if any of them were a spellcaster they would then be allowed to Counterspell (if they have it) his spell since they lost the surprised condition after their turn and would have their reaction available.
Or you can give him the "surprise round" and let him cast the spell then everyone rolls initiative and go down the line. The surprise round isn't RAW but it is used by the majority of tables that I've encountered. And it's your game, your rules. And keep in mind if the NPCs are prepared for combat they're not going to be surprised anyways. So even without initiative they can Counterspell.
As far as cutting you off goes... Well, my players aren't rude enough to do that. And they know it can bite them. For example, I may be narrating "You have approached a gate with towers on each side. Suddenly two dark figures appear "... (Disruptive Player: "I cast fireball!!") ... displaying the badges of the Royal Guard. One proclaims "Halt and identify yourselves" as a firey bead explodes between them. Roll your damage." (Disruptive Player: "Oh, I wouldn't have fireballed guards.") "Well you did. You didn't wait to see who it was you just fireballed. Roll your damage and everyone roll initiative." But my players also know that they can attempt to resolve things peacefully even after initiative is rolled. So the rest could simply stand back and let the guards beat Mr. Disruptive to zero hit points. So maybe you want to think about doing things like that?
Simply put tell them no. If you are having them role for initiative then they need to do that. If you are giving them the chance to do something before initiative you will tell them or ask them before asking them to roll. The person is simply meta gaming and it shouldn't be allowed.
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There's nothing wrong or boring about being a Human Fighter with a Sword and Shield. It's all about HOW you play them, WHO they are, and WHAT they do!
The person is simply meta gaming and it shouldn't be allowed.
I don't see how any of this is metagaming, it appears as if they're roleplaying their character reasonably fine and not having their character make decisions based their player's out of game knowledge. They just don't actually understand the rules, which is completely different from metagaming
I don't see how any of this is metagaming, it appears as if they're roleplaying their character reasonably fine and not having their character make decisions based their player's out of game knowledge. They just don't actually understand the rules, which is completely different from metagaming
It's metagaming because the characters don't know if they're in initiative, about to roll initiative or not in initiative. When the DM is saying "Roll Initiative" and a player shouts out "I cast fireball so I get to go first!!" that is definitely metagaming.
It's metagaming because the characters don't know if they're in initiative, about to roll initiative or not in initiative. When the DM is saying "Roll Initiative" and a player shouts out "I cast fireball so I get to go first!!" that is definitely metagaming.
Yeah I'd have to disagree there, any time you are rolling initiative it is obvious to your character that combat is occurring (unless the character is surprised, but that isn't the case here).
Looks to me like the player is roleplaying their character appropriately, they're just trying to ignore the rules of the game and say that their Turn 1 action occurs before initiative is rolled, just because they were the first player to announce their action.
Yeah I'd have to disagree there, any time you are rolling initiative it is obvious to your character that combat is occurring (unless the character is surprised, but that isn't the case here).
Again, characters do not know they're in initiative order, only the players do. The turns in the six second round all occur at the same time. Time does not slow down for them. If there are five people ahead of them then they are not waiting thirty seconds before they take action. And the next character is not waiting six seconds for them to finish their turn.
But, for the sake of debate, let's assume that it is obvious. Then it's obvious to all the characters involved and that includes the NPCs. There is no "aha! Roll Initiative was called so I cast fireball and go first!" If that was the case then the NPCs would always get to go first because they know that initiative is going to be rolled before it's actually rolled. Which is metagaming.
Again, characters do not know they're in initiative order, only the players do.
Yeah I don't know what you're talking about - OF COURSE the characters know they are in combat once initiative starts. That's literally what is indicated by the Surprise condition - if the character doesn't realize that combat is breaking out as initiative is being rolled, then they are Surprised. And if the character does realize they are in combat then the player announcing an attack action is appropriate roleplay even the player is not playing correctly by the rules of the game.
Either way it's not relevant to the OP's question, either way there isn't any argument that what the player is trying to do is against the rules and should be shot down by the DM.
Again, characters do not know they're in initiative order, only the players do.
Yeah I don't know what you're talking about - OF COURSE the characters know they are in combat once initiative starts. That's literally what is indicated by the Surprise condition - if the character doesn't realize that combat is breaking out as initiative is being rolled, then they are Surprised. And if the character does realize they are in combat then the player announcing an attack action is appropriate roleplay even the player is not playing correctly by the rules of the game.
Either way it's not relevant to the OP's question, either way there isn't any argument that what the player is trying to do is against the rules and should be shot down by the DM.
i argue that what the player is trying to do is against the rules and should be shot down by the dm. initiative is a dexterity check and this player is attempting to shout their way ahead of that. as has been stated, rules as written do not provide a surprise round for out-of game player actions and only sparingly due to in-game character actions. surprise is for blind-side ambushes. surprise is not for being the first to act.
when a player does this, the proper response is to roll initiative and get to that player in due time. no mechanical benefit, no additional attention paid, but no repercussion either. if they continue, you can talk to them. consider asking for more in-character talk and less out-of-character talk at the table. this has the result of less often shouting "i want to fireball them" just because players would be unlikely to want to give away their moves to the NPCs before they make them.
i argue that what the player is trying to do is against the rules and should be shot down by the dm. initiative is a dexterity check and this player is attempting to shout their way ahead of that. as has been stated, rules as written do not provide a surprise round for out-of game player actions and only sparingly due to in-game character actions. surprise is for blind-side ambushes. surprise is not for being the first to act.
Yeah that's what I said, no one would argue with the fact that what he's trying to do is against the rules. We're all agreeing here
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Some times my players jump to combat, either not letting me say to roll initiative or cutting me off. One of players keeps trying to cast spells right before I say to roll initiative. I’m confused if there’s an unspoken rule or a rule I haven’t read about this. He argues that he should go first in the initiative since he was the first to react. But I argue that it’s not fair for the other, more introverted, players. What should I do?
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Any time of combat engagement or hostile intent you roll for initiative. There are rules for Suprise but that does NOT give a free attack before initiative.
You just need to explain to the player "That is not how the rules for initiative work and now roll for initiative."
From the rules as they are written, this is not correct. There is no free attack before initiative, there is no surprise round. Everyone roles initiative and the surprised enemies have the surprised condition in the first turn of combat and cannot act.
Typo. Corrected. Thanks.
Your player is incorrect. Player reaction time has absolutely nothing to do with how the rules for a combat encounter work. It isn't a matter of which player yells out what they want to do first. You should probably take a few minutes at a session and explain to everyone how combat works.
Maybe as an additional input:
If one player spontaneously attacks an enemy out of conversation or somthing like that, it is even possible for the DM to decide, that even other players are surprised by the PC's actions and also get the surprised condition.
Letting them draw weapons or foci before initiative starts to conserve action economy is one thing, letting them attack before initiative is something I would recommend against.
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Without getting into super-specific examples or circumstances; I have allowed my players to occasionally, and I stress occasionally, take an action prior to initiative (when it is clear initiative will occurr), if the roleplay leading up to it felt as if it warranted such, or if particular circumstances outside of Surprised seemed reasonable. But when I say this, it does not mean they get one, or two, or three full turns before initiative starts. Knowing that this is technically not how initiative works, I typically have them explain to me how and/or what they're attempting as their "pre-initiative" action, which is to say there genuinely are some petulant characters who would act very impulsively (we've all known a character or player like that).
I do not, however, let my players dictate how they get to be placed in initiative.
Ever.
As the DM, even should they make a good argument as to why they should go first, I still exert the control over the game to a respectable degree that no player simply chooses when they choose to go. The occasional times when I have allowed pre-initiative actions, they must still roll initiative prior to completing that action, spell or otherwise, because it is still part of initiative. There are myriad issues with the approach, but they still respect the rules and ruling as adjudicated by the person running the game. If I am being interrupted, or they assume they are in control of initiative (whichever variant being used), I simply remind them, "As the DM, I will decide course by which you, the player, are allowed to interact with the game. My decision is final, and we will continue in a manner consistent with my rulings that don't disrupt the flow of play."
You are the DM, and you should exert your control over the game. The players, ignoring, overshouting, or interrupting you, are only bringing a disruption to the flow of the game with exploiting antics (as to me it seems this is a more than once occasion, hence exploitive). Stand your ground and respectfully remind them of the fact that you make the ultimate ruling.
(Sorry if this post seems confusing, I typed it up in a hurry on my work tablet]
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this is a really, really good point. the player is attempting to gain an advantage but in effect may simply be painting a big target on their squishy self.
it might not hurt to add some high-initiative low-damage ranged enemies (sprite) to the next few encounters or else scatter a few grappling foes (boggle, mud mephit, bone whelk) around. it's hopefully a safer way to show they're putting themselves in danger than to have them focus fired by the more moderate accuracy/damage enemies you probably had planned.
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If he's attempting to do any sort of attack then you are correct and he is completely wrong, others have posted more details on the actual rules.
There's a possibility he could have a good argument if he's trying to do something like fire off a buff spell like Bless, Mage Armor, Haste, etc, or a summon spell, or anything that could conceivably be cast during that space when combat is obviously imminent but not yet started (think a monologuing BBEG or duel countdown, etc). I tend to always allow stuff like that so players (and NPCs) don't need to waste Turn 1 actions on buff spells, but any sort of attack strictly follows the initiative order as rolled.
If you'd like some insight from the game developpers discussion in Dragon Talk: Sage Advice on the subject such as when signaling intent to act and initiative the highlight is that ''The whole system assumes that the instant narrative transitions to violence, everything suddenly pauses'' where it's time to roll initiative, before any attack or action is actually taken.
Tell him Initiative is not based off of "Dibs" but off of the Dice Roll and the character's modifier(s).
But anybody can initiate combat at any time. If he wants to surprise attack NPCs you can allow it. RAW you would have everyone roll initiative and then everyone other than his character has the Surprised condition. So you would bypass everyone who rolled higher than he did. But if any of them were a spellcaster they would then be allowed to Counterspell (if they have it) his spell since they lost the surprised condition after their turn and would have their reaction available.
Or you can give him the "surprise round" and let him cast the spell then everyone rolls initiative and go down the line. The surprise round isn't RAW but it is used by the majority of tables that I've encountered. And it's your game, your rules. And keep in mind if the NPCs are prepared for combat they're not going to be surprised anyways. So even without initiative they can Counterspell.
As far as cutting you off goes... Well, my players aren't rude enough to do that. And they know it can bite them. For example, I may be narrating "You have approached a gate with towers on each side. Suddenly two dark figures appear "... (Disruptive Player: "I cast fireball!!") ... displaying the badges of the Royal Guard. One proclaims "Halt and identify yourselves" as a firey bead explodes between them. Roll your damage." (Disruptive Player: "Oh, I wouldn't have fireballed guards.") "Well you did. You didn't wait to see who it was you just fireballed. Roll your damage and everyone roll initiative." But my players also know that they can attempt to resolve things peacefully even after initiative is rolled. So the rest could simply stand back and let the guards beat Mr. Disruptive to zero hit points. So maybe you want to think about doing things like that?
Simply put tell them no. If you are having them role for initiative then they need to do that. If you are giving them the chance to do something before initiative you will tell them or ask them before asking them to roll. The person is simply meta gaming and it shouldn't be allowed.
There's nothing wrong or boring about being a Human Fighter with a Sword and Shield. It's all about HOW you play them, WHO they are, and WHAT they do!
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I don't see how any of this is metagaming, it appears as if they're roleplaying their character reasonably fine and not having their character make decisions based their player's out of game knowledge. They just don't actually understand the rules, which is completely different from metagaming
It's metagaming because the characters don't know if they're in initiative, about to roll initiative or not in initiative. When the DM is saying "Roll Initiative" and a player shouts out "I cast fireball so I get to go first!!" that is definitely metagaming.
Yeah I'd have to disagree there, any time you are rolling initiative it is obvious to your character that combat is occurring (unless the character is surprised, but that isn't the case here).
Looks to me like the player is roleplaying their character appropriately, they're just trying to ignore the rules of the game and say that their Turn 1 action occurs before initiative is rolled, just because they were the first player to announce their action.
Again, characters do not know they're in initiative order, only the players do. The turns in the six second round all occur at the same time. Time does not slow down for them. If there are five people ahead of them then they are not waiting thirty seconds before they take action. And the next character is not waiting six seconds for them to finish their turn.
But, for the sake of debate, let's assume that it is obvious. Then it's obvious to all the characters involved and that includes the NPCs. There is no "aha! Roll Initiative was called so I cast fireball and go first!" If that was the case then the NPCs would always get to go first because they know that initiative is going to be rolled before it's actually rolled. Which is metagaming.
Yeah I don't know what you're talking about - OF COURSE the characters know they are in combat once initiative starts. That's literally what is indicated by the Surprise condition - if the character doesn't realize that combat is breaking out as initiative is being rolled, then they are Surprised. And if the character does realize they are in combat then the player announcing an attack action is appropriate roleplay even the player is not playing correctly by the rules of the game.
Either way it's not relevant to the OP's question, either way there isn't any argument that what the player is trying to do is against the rules and should be shot down by the DM.
i argue that what the player is trying to do is against the rules and should be shot down by the dm. initiative is a dexterity check and this player is attempting to shout their way ahead of that. as has been stated, rules as written do not provide a surprise round for out-of game player actions and only sparingly due to in-game character actions. surprise is for blind-side ambushes. surprise is not for being the first to act.
when a player does this, the proper response is to roll initiative and get to that player in due time. no mechanical benefit, no additional attention paid, but no repercussion either. if they continue, you can talk to them. consider asking for more in-character talk and less out-of-character talk at the table. this has the result of less often shouting "i want to fireball them" just because players would be unlikely to want to give away their moves to the NPCs before they make them.
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Yeah that's what I said, no one would argue with the fact that what he's trying to do is against the rules. We're all agreeing here