So the party is gonna face a Death Knight, who has a bound weapon he can stash in other planes, his own body, and cannot be made to be disarmed.
The party bard loves to heat metal weapons (idk why they just get dropped and the advantage of the spell is lost)
So my question is instead of the appropriate save to NOT drop the weapon is dropping the weapon at full discretion of the Death Knight? Obviously he would get the negatives for holding onto it I believe, but could him unsummoning, then summoning it break the concentration on the weapon anyway?
First line of the spell: "Choose a manufactured metal object, such as a metal weapon or a suit of heavy or medium metal armor, that you can see within range."
If I understand the question; if the DK send his weapon off to the extra-planar dimension the spell would cease to perform. The Bard would have to cast a new Heat Metal.
What level is the party? If it's a higher level, and the bard is casting it as a level 2, I agree with Thac0. If it's a lower party, meaning a 2nd level spell slot is still a significant price, I'd rule that so long as the bard keeps using his bonus to sustain it, once the weapon is affected, to keep it affected.
The party bard loves to heat metal weapons (idk why they just get dropped and the advantage of the spell is lost)
You don't consider disarming your opponent an advantage of the spell?
So my question is instead of the appropriate save to NOT drop the weapon is dropping the weapon at full discretion of the Death Knight? Obviously he would get the negatives for holding onto it I believe, but could him unsummoning, then summoning it break the concentration on the weapon anyway?
No. Once a spell's been cast, its effects aren't limited by range. The spell continues to affect the weapon for the duration, wherever the weapon is in the multiverse.
No. Once a spell's been cast, its effects aren't limited by range. The spell continues to affect the weapon for the duration, wherever the weapon is in the multiverse.
I can understand your point of view, could it be argued that a trigger of the spell has been removed?
The weapon is no longer in the hand of the DK, thus the repeated damage cannot be performed. However, unlike dropping the weapon, it is instead transported out of the dimension. In this case how could the Bard maintain a spell on an item he couldn't focus on?
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Edit: To answer my own question as I have re-read the spell. The spell does not require the caster to focus on the item, instead simply causes the metal to flare up and damage the creature wearing/holding the item. As such it can be assumed that the weapon, no matter where it goes, retains the heat generated by the magical effect.
Inquisitvecoder it depends on the creature they are facing, most humanoids have back up weapons so they would just drop the heated weapon and pull their backup. depends on the intelligent level I am trying to convey.
But for the DK if he can't be disarmed would I just forgo the check to forcibly drop the weapon and have it be a decision of the DK to hold on or not? Or just cast dispel, there is a few ways it can play out and if it comes up I wanted to have a few ideas ready without slowing combat.
I always thought heat metal was concentration, which goes back to if he just stashes the weapon then brings it back.
It's not concentration spell, that was my misunderstanding too.
As to the "Dk can't be disarmed" comment: dropping a weapon because it's hot is instinct, a reflexive action taken to avoid pain. Now the spell requires a Con save, by RAW you'd have to roll. Now we get into an interesting question: story vs mechanics? If this is some sort of plot driven scenario, you could override the spell's save and do whatever you want. If you want to follow the rules, he could potentially save and maintain the grip on the weapon, and in either case, cast dispel.
Ok thanks, that makes more sense. Whether or not the bard will even do this I don't know, just trying to have basics covered.
My question about the DK can't be disarmed is because if he fails the check he is supposed to drop it but the rules of the bound weapon would say otherwise, obviously if something is burning an intelligent creature it would let it go. But the idea of him being able to maintain grip and casting dispel makes sense.
I would rule "spell forces a save or else a creature is disarmed" and the death knight, due to its ability to not be disarmed and being a badass undead, would be immune to be forced to make that roll to involuntarily release the weapon. But, if he stares down at this glowing hot sword in his hand and thinks to himself, and I quote: "HOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOT!", he should then be able to decide to hold it and spare himself spending actions to retrieve the weapon at the expense of having disadvantage, or drop the weapon because, well... "HOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOT!"
But for the DK if he can't be disarmed would I just forgo the check to forcibly drop the weapon and have it be a decision of the DK to hold on or not?
The spell says the creature must make a Constitution saving throw or drop the object if it can. Whether the Death Knight can drop it or not is up to you, since DKs don't officially have a "bound" weapon so you decide how you want that to function.
I'd lean towards dropping it if "can't be disarmed" are the operative words of your rule (no one's forcibly prying the weapon from their grip), but if it were something along the lines of "The DK can't be forced or compelled to drop the weapon" that's different.
Either way, they have the option of dismissing the weapon, though presumably that costs them their action or bonus action.
Or just cast dispel, there is a few ways it can play out and if it comes up I wanted to have a few ideas ready without slowing combat.
Breaking the caster's concentration is an option too. Hellfire Orb and Destructive Wave will force concentration saves while being your best option to damage the group; the DK gets 3 of these to throw at them. After that, Searing Smite has a chance to damage them for 1-2 additional turns after it hits. Banishment and Hold Person are risky since it might waste the whole turn, but it'll instantly break concentration and turn the tables on the party.
I always thought heat metal was concentration, which goes back to if he just stashes the weapon then brings it back.
It is a concentration spell, but that doesn't change the fact that dismissing the weapon won't end the spell.
So the party is gonna face a Death Knight, who has a bound weapon he can stash in other planes, his own body, and cannot be made to be disarmed.
The party bard loves to heat metal weapons (idk why they just get dropped and the advantage of the spell is lost)
So my question is instead of the appropriate save to NOT drop the weapon is dropping the weapon at full discretion of the Death Knight? Obviously he would get the negatives for holding onto it I believe, but could him unsummoning, then summoning it break the concentration on the weapon anyway?
First line of the spell: "Choose a manufactured metal object, such as a metal weapon or a suit of heavy or medium metal armor, that you can see within range."
If I understand the question; if the DK send his weapon off to the extra-planar dimension the spell would cease to perform. The Bard would have to cast a new Heat Metal.
What level is the party? If it's a higher level, and the bard is casting it as a level 2, I agree with Thac0. If it's a lower party, meaning a 2nd level spell slot is still a significant price, I'd rule that so long as the bard keeps using his bonus to sustain it, once the weapon is affected, to keep it affected.
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You don't consider disarming your opponent an advantage of the spell?
No. Once a spell's been cast, its effects aren't limited by range. The spell continues to affect the weapon for the duration, wherever the weapon is in the multiverse.
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I can understand your point of view, could it be argued that a trigger of the spell has been removed?
The weapon is no longer in the hand of the DK, thus the repeated damage cannot be performed. However, unlike dropping the weapon, it is instead transported out of the dimension. In this case how could the Bard maintain a spell on an item he couldn't focus on?
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Edit: To answer my own question as I have re-read the spell. The spell does not require the caster to focus on the item, instead simply causes the metal to flare up and damage the creature wearing/holding the item. As such it can be assumed that the weapon, no matter where it goes, retains the heat generated by the magical effect.
Party is level 4 and 5, Bard is level 4 Sam.
Inquisitvecoder it depends on the creature they are facing, most humanoids have back up weapons so they would just drop the heated weapon and pull their backup. depends on the intelligent level I am trying to convey.
But for the DK if he can't be disarmed would I just forgo the check to forcibly drop the weapon and have it be a decision of the DK to hold on or not? Or just cast dispel, there is a few ways it can play out and if it comes up I wanted to have a few ideas ready without slowing combat.
I always thought heat metal was concentration, which goes back to if he just stashes the weapon then brings it back.
It's not concentration spell, that was my misunderstanding too.
As to the "Dk can't be disarmed" comment: dropping a weapon because it's hot is instinct, a reflexive action taken to avoid pain. Now the spell requires a Con save, by RAW you'd have to roll. Now we get into an interesting question: story vs mechanics? If this is some sort of plot driven scenario, you could override the spell's save and do whatever you want. If you want to follow the rules, he could potentially save and maintain the grip on the weapon, and in either case, cast dispel.
Ok thanks, that makes more sense. Whether or not the bard will even do this I don't know, just trying to have basics covered.
My question about the DK can't be disarmed is because if he fails the check he is supposed to drop it but the rules of the bound weapon would say otherwise, obviously if something is burning an intelligent creature it would let it go. But the idea of him being able to maintain grip and casting dispel makes sense.
I would rule "spell forces a save or else a creature is disarmed" and the death knight, due to its ability to not be disarmed and being a badass undead, would be immune to be forced to make that roll to involuntarily release the weapon. But, if he stares down at this glowing hot sword in his hand and thinks to himself, and I quote: "HOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOT!", he should then be able to decide to hold it and spare himself spending actions to retrieve the weapon at the expense of having disadvantage, or drop the weapon because, well... "HOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOT!"
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The spell says the creature must make a Constitution saving throw or drop the object if it can. Whether the Death Knight can drop it or not is up to you, since DKs don't officially have a "bound" weapon so you decide how you want that to function.
I'd lean towards dropping it if "can't be disarmed" are the operative words of your rule (no one's forcibly prying the weapon from their grip), but if it were something along the lines of "The DK can't be forced or compelled to drop the weapon" that's different.
Either way, they have the option of dismissing the weapon, though presumably that costs them their action or bonus action.
Breaking the caster's concentration is an option too. Hellfire Orb and Destructive Wave will force concentration saves while being your best option to damage the group; the DK gets 3 of these to throw at them. After that, Searing Smite has a chance to damage them for 1-2 additional turns after it hits. Banishment and Hold Person are risky since it might waste the whole turn, but it'll instantly break concentration and turn the tables on the party.
It is a concentration spell, but that doesn't change the fact that dismissing the weapon won't end the spell.
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Ok thanks, wasn't sure if a caster could hold concentration on an item that goes to a different plane or not. Preciate it.