Hey fellow kids, a new potential player to my party is interested in playing a Bladesinger. I've never rolled one myself or had one in a party, so I don't have a good idea about how broken/flawed the subclass is. Especially with the UA build for it that released a week or so ago.
Any takes from folks in the know? We're basically leaning into this character as something like a Witcher.
Relatedly, I always thought you could not cast a BA spell AND use your action to cast a spell. But is that not the case? As in, you could cast a cantrip AND a BA leveled spell?
Relatedly, I always thought you could not cast a BA spell AND use your action to cast a spell. But is that not the case? As in, you could cast a cantrip AND a BA leveled spell?
So what, if anything, have folks done to counteract this and keep the class balanced? I can see a high DEX/INT build that dumps the rest as getting pretty AC chonky, even without mage armor. But whether that's necessarily a bad thing I just don't know, given that RAW bladesingers are limited to light armor so in principle there's a low-20s cap on AC (outside of the shield spell). Is that math lining up correct?
So what, if anything, have folks done to counteract this and keep the class balanced?
Change it to unarmored defense -- it gives an AC of 10 + Dex Modifier + Int Modifier, just like the equivalent abilities for monks and barbarians. At that point, go ahead and have the bonus all the time.
I don't think bladesingers are broken. Wizards have the lowest hp in the game. So the high AC kind of compensates. If you have problems with that, then just add damage that doesn't come from attack rolls.
So long as you're using point buy or standard array, they're not liable to have 20 in both Dex and Int for quite a while, so it's really not that bad. Worst case they'll end up with 21 AC until they can get one or both of those stats to 20, which many different characters can achieve. With Shield it does get a bit out of hand, but that quickly uses up spell slots, and takes up their Reaction. Wizards - even bladesingers - are squishy, and there's plenty of dangerous things that don't target AC.
Relatedly, I always thought you could not cast a BA spell AND use your action to cast a spell. But is that not the case? As in, you could cast a cantrip AND a BA leveled spell?
As for this, casting a Bonus Action spell and an action Cantrip has always been allowed, both in 2014 and 2024. In 2014, the rule was that you couldn't cast a leveled spell (1st-9th) as an action on the same turn you cast a spell as a Bonus Action. In 2024, the rule is that you can't cast a spell using a spell slot more than once per turn. Bit of a pro-con there, as now you can cast both a Bonus Action and action leveled spell, provided only one is using a spell slot (so you can use a scroll or magic item), however you can't cast use more than one spell slot per turn no matter what kind of action you're using. No more casting a spell with a spell slot, then using a reaction to cast Shield to protect yourself from an opportunity attack.
There is a meme that sums it up perfectly. I don't have the link, but it basically shows a bladesinger with a mask that says 26 AC on it, and under the mask is 14 health.
Basically, you're gonna have armor-plated glass cannons that can't survive very many hits. It's pretty balanced overall however.
So long as you're using point buy or standard array, they're not liable to have 20 in both Dex and Int for quite a while, so it's really not that bad. Worst case they'll end up with 21 AC until they can get one or both of those stats to 20, which many different characters can achieve. With Shield it does get a bit out of hand, but that quickly uses up spell slots, and takes up their Reaction. Wizards - even bladesingers - are squishy, and there's plenty of dangerous things that don't target AC.
Relatedly, I always thought you could not cast a BA spell AND use your action to cast a spell. But is that not the case? As in, you could cast a cantrip AND a BA leveled spell?
As for this, casting a Bonus Action spell and an action Cantrip has always been allowed, both in 2014 and 2024. In 2014, the rule was that you couldn't cast a leveled spell (1st-9th) as an action on the same turn you cast a spell as a Bonus Action. In 2024, the rule is that you can't cast a spell using a spell slot more than once per turn. Bit of a pro-con there, as now you can cast both a Bonus Action and action leveled spell, provided only one is using a spell slot (so you can use a scroll or magic item), however you can't cast use more than one spell slot per turn no matter what kind of action you're using. No more casting a spell with a spell slot, then using a reaction to cast Shield to protect yourself from an opportunity attack.
Oh snap, is that in the 2024 PHB or the 2024 DMG? I should tell my party if that's the new rule.
Also, just in case - don't want to be the cause of any mix ups :P - the rule is that you can only cast a spell using a spell slot once per turn, not once per round. So a character can cast a spell using a spell slot on their turn, and still use a Reaction to cast a spell - such as Shield - on someone else's turn. Probably doesn't need clarification, but just in case.
That said, fun little tidbit/interaction is that all new monsters and NPCs no longer have spell slots; instead, their spells are either "at will," or they have a set number of times they can cast them per day. Given that, monsters and NPCs can cast multiple spells in a turn - provided they have both action and Bonus Action/Reaction spells, anyway. As a fun coda, while that distinction makes them more dangerous, it also makes using the new Counterspell against them more dangerous than against players, as players will recover the spell slot they used to cast the spell that was countered, while NPCs will lose their limited use of it (if it had one.)
I don't think bladesingers are broken. Wizards have the lowest hp in the game. So the high AC kind of compensates. If you have problems with that, then just add damage that doesn't come from attack rolls.
That's the argument for fighters barbarians and paladins having high ac. It seems absurd that we should use it with wizards. (the second part of the argument)
If a bladesinger is played as a melee fighter it is pretty well balanced. Yes you have very high AC but without it you go down in 1-2 hits because of your low HP, you generally need to cast shield at least every other turn to survive a fight. If a bladesinger is played as a normal wizard - standing back from the fight and just hurling spells then the concentration buff from Bladesong gets very crazy very quickly.
I don't think bladesingers are broken. Wizards have the lowest hp in the game. So the high AC kind of compensates. If you have problems with that, then just add damage that doesn't come from attack rolls.
That's the argument for fighters barbarians and paladins having high ac. It seems absurd that we should use it with wizards. (the second part of the argument)
It's not the same. If you use non-attack damage on fighters, barbarians and paladins, they'll still be tanking the damage pretty well because they have more hit points. And it's not "wizards", it's "bladesingers". And this isn't an issue only to them. You have one level dips, or in the 2014 rules races that got proficiency in armor. This isn't new, and bladesingers aren't the worst offenders. Players have been able to make full casters with dumb ACs for quite some time.
I don't think bladesingers are broken. Wizards have the lowest hp in the game. So the high AC kind of compensates. If you have problems with that, then just add damage that doesn't come from attack rolls.
That's the argument for fighters barbarians and paladins having high ac. It seems absurd that we should use it with wizards. (the second part of the argument)
It's not the same. If you use non-attack damage on fighters, barbarians and paladins, they'll still be tanking the damage pretty well because they have more hit points. And it's not "wizards", it's "bladesingers". And this isn't an issue only to them. You have one level dips, or in the 2014 rules races that got proficiency in armor. This isn't new, and bladesingers aren't the worst offenders. Players have been able to make full casters with dumb ACs for quite some time.
My problem is they get high AC basically for free. Multiclassing carries the drawback of delayed progression, and, IMO, races that gave heavy armor proficiency or high unarmored AC were OP.
If a bladesinger is played as a melee fighter it is pretty well balanced. Yes you have very high AC but without it you go down in 1-2 hits because of your low HP, you generally need to cast shield at least every other turn to survive a fight. If a bladesinger is played as a normal wizard - standing back from the fight and just hurling spells then the concentration buff from Bladesong gets very crazy very quickly.
Which is the core problem. There's no reason not to play bladesinger as "normal wizard, only much better defenses". There isn't even much incentive to play bladesinger as a melee fighter, they're decidedly second rate at it. It's the standard gish issue, you're almost always inadequate at one of the two parts and thus incentivized to mostly ignore it outside of buffs.
Which is the core problem. There's no reason not to play bladesinger as "normal wizard, only much better defenses". There isn't even much incentive to play bladesinger as a melee fighter, they're decidedly second rate at it. It's the standard gish issue.
The incentive to play a bladesinger as a melee fighter is the same as it is for any gish subclass -- because you think it's fun
If you want to try and "beat the game" through optimizing, you can do it with just about anything
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Hey fellow kids, a new potential player to my party is interested in playing a Bladesinger. I've never rolled one myself or had one in a party, so I don't have a good idea about how broken/flawed the subclass is. Especially with the UA build for it that released a week or so ago.
Any takes from folks in the know? We're basically leaning into this character as something like a Witcher.
Its main broken feature is AC stacking.
Relatedly, I always thought you could not cast a BA spell AND use your action to cast a spell. But is that not the case? As in, you could cast a cantrip AND a BA leveled spell?
Yes, that's valid under both 2014 and 2024 rules.
So what, if anything, have folks done to counteract this and keep the class balanced? I can see a high DEX/INT build that dumps the rest as getting pretty AC chonky, even without mage armor. But whether that's necessarily a bad thing I just don't know, given that RAW bladesingers are limited to light armor so in principle there's a low-20s cap on AC (outside of the shield spell). Is that math lining up correct?
Change it to unarmored defense -- it gives an AC of 10 + Dex Modifier + Int Modifier, just like the equivalent abilities for monks and barbarians. At that point, go ahead and have the bonus all the time.
I don't think bladesingers are broken. Wizards have the lowest hp in the game. So the high AC kind of compensates. If you have problems with that, then just add damage that doesn't come from attack rolls.
So long as you're using point buy or standard array, they're not liable to have 20 in both Dex and Int for quite a while, so it's really not that bad. Worst case they'll end up with 21 AC until they can get one or both of those stats to 20, which many different characters can achieve. With Shield it does get a bit out of hand, but that quickly uses up spell slots, and takes up their Reaction. Wizards - even bladesingers - are squishy, and there's plenty of dangerous things that don't target AC.
As for this, casting a Bonus Action spell and an action Cantrip has always been allowed, both in 2014 and 2024.
In 2014, the rule was that you couldn't cast a leveled spell (1st-9th) as an action on the same turn you cast a spell as a Bonus Action.
In 2024, the rule is that you can't cast a spell using a spell slot more than once per turn.
Bit of a pro-con there, as now you can cast both a Bonus Action and action leveled spell, provided only one is using a spell slot (so you can use a scroll or magic item), however you can't cast use more than one spell slot per turn no matter what kind of action you're using. No more casting a spell with a spell slot, then using a reaction to cast Shield to protect yourself from an opportunity attack.
There is a meme that sums it up perfectly. I don't have the link, but it basically shows a bladesinger with a mask that says 26 AC on it, and under the mask is 14 health.
Basically, you're gonna have armor-plated glass cannons that can't survive very many hits. It's pretty balanced overall however.
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Oh snap, is that in the 2024 PHB or the 2024 DMG? I should tell my party if that's the new rule.
It's in the 2024 PHB as well as in the free rules.
Also, just in case - don't want to be the cause of any mix ups :P - the rule is that you can only cast a spell using a spell slot once per turn, not once per round. So a character can cast a spell using a spell slot on their turn, and still use a Reaction to cast a spell - such as Shield - on someone else's turn.
Probably doesn't need clarification, but just in case.
That said, fun little tidbit/interaction is that all new monsters and NPCs no longer have spell slots; instead, their spells are either "at will," or they have a set number of times they can cast them per day. Given that, monsters and NPCs can cast multiple spells in a turn - provided they have both action and Bonus Action/Reaction spells, anyway.
As a fun coda, while that distinction makes them more dangerous, it also makes using the new Counterspell against them more dangerous than against players, as players will recover the spell slot they used to cast the spell that was countered, while NPCs will lose their limited use of it (if it had one.)
That's the argument for fighters barbarians and paladins having high ac. It seems absurd that we should use it with wizards. (the second part of the argument)
If a bladesinger is played as a melee fighter it is pretty well balanced. Yes you have very high AC but without it you go down in 1-2 hits because of your low HP, you generally need to cast shield at least every other turn to survive a fight. If a bladesinger is played as a normal wizard - standing back from the fight and just hurling spells then the concentration buff from Bladesong gets very crazy very quickly.
It's not the same. If you use non-attack damage on fighters, barbarians and paladins, they'll still be tanking the damage pretty well because they have more hit points. And it's not "wizards", it's "bladesingers". And this isn't an issue only to them. You have one level dips, or in the 2014 rules races that got proficiency in armor. This isn't new, and bladesingers aren't the worst offenders. Players have been able to make full casters with dumb ACs for quite some time.
My problem is they get high AC basically for free. Multiclassing carries the drawback of delayed progression, and, IMO, races that gave heavy armor proficiency or high unarmored AC were OP.
Which is the core problem. There's no reason not to play bladesinger as "normal wizard, only much better defenses". There isn't even much incentive to play bladesinger as a melee fighter, they're decidedly second rate at it. It's the standard gish issue, you're almost always inadequate at one of the two parts and thus incentivized to mostly ignore it outside of buffs.
The incentive to play a bladesinger as a melee fighter is the same as it is for any gish subclass -- because you think it's fun
If you want to try and "beat the game" through optimizing, you can do it with just about anything
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)