Hey everyone thanks for reading and for any input.
So I'm the usual DM for almost any time my friends play. And most of the time things are great. Every DM runs into problem players, people who are on their phones and ignoring the game, or players that metagame. But I have a really particular player who is a problem in a way that I don't see discussed as much. We'll call this player Green Bean for reasons and to protect the not so innocent. So about a year ago I had invited several new friends who I'd never played D&D with before to join a campaign finale, as part of a huge battle between the good guys and the encroaching orc army.Green Bean made an Assassin Rogue with an edgy backstory of being an assassin whose home was destroyed and a dead family and how they were taken in by criminals. I introduced my new friends characters and gave them all a day of preparation and them getting into ridiculous shenanigans before the war. While the Bard(Who was an original member of the game before the new people) was performing stand up comedy at the local tavern, Green Bean decided to steal the Bard's unattended Lute and destroy it. This was a red flag that I wish I'd taken more seriously. At the end of the game Green Bean talked to a Good Dragon who'd helped the Good Guys in the battle and talked about wanting to do good things to redeem themselves for their past crimes. I looked at this as a good sign, as I had new ideas for a campaign with this Dragon leading a team of heroes unified as knights.
Well we've been playing that game and Green Bean has been playing their chaotic good character who wants redemption more like the stereotypical chaotic neutral jerk that no one likes. In the last year he has 1) berated a team member for making a deal with a hag, only to 1 minute later make a deal with a hag. And they attempted and failed to steal hair from the heads of innocent villagers for trade to the hag. 2)Berated a party member, the fighter, for not sneaking into a Fey Palace because they didn't want the Fey to know they were there. They didn't berate until after they had left and at no point did they ever ask people to sneak. Green Bean just instantly jumped to berating and attacking others for not reading his mind. Also they were there to speak to the owner of said palace so I have no clue why they didn't want them to know they were there. 3)He has started 4 more arguments with this same player. She doesn't do anything wrong, and she's kinda slow and bad with words so she's very bad at defending herself. It seems like every time he starts an argument, they just encountered something powerful, like the Archfey from the palace, a dragon, an agent of the Xanathar. So I think he gets super anxious whenever something powerful has its eye on them and he takes it out on her because it's easy. 4) He feels the need to be a part of every conversation. He needs to be everywhere making comments about everything and trying to be the person who knows everything about everything. 5) Context: All my games sorta take place all in the same universe. He broke into the blacksmiths shop of a player from a different game so that he could use the forge. His excuse was "If he was home I would've asked." Afterwards he was then arrested for breaking and entering, and put in a cell. He then threw a concealed knife at the guard in an attempt to escape. Keep in mind this is a small town militia guard, in the town they had just last year saved. He failed. 6) After the party encountered a Red Dragon attacking a Firbolg village and it escaped, the party was going to take a rest. As I said that happens, he interrupted to say he wanted to talk to the party's fighter. She said she wanted to recruit good-hearted people to join their order, he basically shot down everything she said, and instead mansplained that the only way to kill a dragon was with tons of magical items. He mansplained dragonslaying. To the only player/character at the table who has slain a dragon( And she did it with a party that had almost no magic items). He then proceeds to ask the Good Dragon if he knows of any Magic Item Stockpiles as if that's a thing. (They're in a small town on the frontier, there are no magic shops anywhere closeby.) He then continues berating the Fighter until boiled over and told them that I was sick and tired of him starting arguments, for no reason, in my game. 7) Nitpicking here but basically anytime anyone else does fun stuff or plays a character who acts silly he treats them like they're really stupid and just acts very superior. This is not a character choice, most of it is out of character comments. 8) I don't know if this qualifies as metagaming but he definitely acts like a know it all, all the time. He says what the NPC's or monsters are capable of to other players. Stuff like "Oh you know this NPC can cast that spell too." or "Oh this guardian monster is totally going to be an aboleth." The reason I don't think it's metagaming is that he's pretty consistently wrong. About rules, monsters, spells. Everything. I'll point out as the DM that he can't do a particular thing in the game and completely confidently he'll say "No it works this way" And so he pulls up the book so he can read on paper how he's wrong. I wouldn't mind this so much if it didn't slow down the game.
So I want to know what I can do about this problem player. I know some of you might be thinking, well maybe it's the girl who plays the fighter that's the problem. Well I've been playing with her even longer than I've known Green Bean and before him no one ever argued and made the game this stressful. It is definitely him. I record my games and put them on youtube. I can pinpoint the moments detailed here. My games used to be so much fun. Now I dread the ones with him in them because he'd made them so awful with his negativity and arguing. I was so excited to play with the characters that came out of that first game in the Orc war. I even set up a thing in the Feywild adventure where Green Bean came across a Moonblade, which as an elf they would be the only character who could use it. They haven't attuned to it yet because Moonblades are special and require special forms of attunement. But personally, even though I put it in the game for him to have, Moonblades are meant to be for a neutral good character who is a great example of elven virtue. Green Bean has been playing their character exactly the opposite of that, so my thinking says that the Moonblade won't accept them as their wielder. So my questions for you are should I kick this player out? Everyone I play with is friends with him, but at the same time we are all very aware that he's like this and unlike most groups of friend, I feel like most other players would understand it. Should I take this legendary item that was in the game for him and have it turn into a slap in the face because he didn't actually play his character as good character? Should I give him one more chance? I don't know, but I'm at wits end.
the fact that you've let it get this far tells me it's too far gone. normally, one would attempt to nip it in the bud by bringing this up early, but by the way you describe it, that was a long time ago and an opportunity not taken. you don't seem to describe any attempt at an intervention earlier in the piece.
at this point, your description of dreading games tells me that you are actually already in a toxic situation, and it needs to be immediately remedied. a suggested strategy: speak to the group (minus the offending player) about this behaviour, how you feel, and how everyone feels, and ask what they make of it - in all likelihood, they don't appreciate this either; if you have mandate, speak to the player, outline the reasons why this person isn't welcome, give them an opportunity to speak their peace, and bid them farewell.
When I play or run a game, the #1 thing I keep in mind is fun.
As a player, I will give the game a few sessions and maybe see if it improved, but if it's not fun, I will politely bow out. I may talk with the DM or other players first, but it's not always a thing that I feel has ever worked--sometimes certain groups don't gel.
As a DM, if I'm not having fun, I will analyze why. Is it a particular player? Is it an adventure path? Am I not being engaging enough? Are the players not having fun? I will do what I can to make the game fun for everyone in the group (including myself). If I find something that is causing the game to be not fun, I will try to fix it. In the situation you described, I'd talk to the person one-on-one and ask him (with particular points as you've described) why he feels the need to do these things out of character. I would have not let it get to the point where it boils over because at that point, I would have just killed his character off in a way that it couldn't be resurrected and asked him politely to leave. The problems I see with the situation is that he's out of control (out of character) and not being respectful of anyone else in the group. I have seen people play characters that were out of control because that's how their character was created, but that's different. You even mentioned that he plays his character in ways that don't match what his character shows (I have changed alignments to match how people play characters in the past without the player arguing because I warn them as they go).
In my opinion, you need to analyze your group to try to make it as fun as possible for all parties involved, and if there are things you can do (including removing people who don't work well with the group out of character) then you should do those things.
The length of your post suggests you already know the answer to this: Do you think 'another chance' will make a blind bit of difference?
Because it already sounds like you've given him dozens of chances - I'm just not sure what not removing him immediately from future sessions is going to achieve. Beyond more frustration and annoyance.
I'm no psychologist, but a few of the behaviours you've described sound like more out-of-character issues, that have spilled over into the game. He sounds insecure and immature; always wanting the attention, being unable to deal with consequences, and purposefully disrespectful of the table, the players, and yourself. It sounds like he's doing this to exert some semblance of what he believes to be authority - to feel important. Perhaps it's telling that most of his argumentative actions are targeted towards a girl in the group. For the most part, in real-life, this sort of behaviour gets one swiftly reprimanded; but unfortunately, in D&D, it's all to easy to treat it as 'just a game, so what's the problem?'
But ultimately, it has to be enjoyed - by everyone, including you. The fact you're deliberating over whether to hold back a magic item is completely missing the issue. How this character is even alive after what you've described is also quite surprising. Attacking a guard while in jail? How and why was he not immediately executed? Perhaps you could have a firmer hand at the table - rather than letting the frustration bubble up into an outburst, nip it in the bud early. Whether it's an out of character argument, or quibbling over rules, you have to swiftly shut the lid. If he can't respect you as the DM enough to shut up when you're making a ruling, even if that's, "We'll chat about that rule/issue/situation out of the session - I've made a note of it", then he's just a bad player. You don't have to suffer it.
As the others have suggested, your next step is a private chat with the others in the group. Relay your frustrations - chances are, the others are just as miffed about it. Follow that up with a private chat with Green Bean. Outline what you expect of the players at the table, and that he simply isn't fitting the mould.
But remember - while I firmly believe D&D is for everyone, not everyone should be at your table. Call it as you see it, my friend. Good luck!
I believe that you need to approach him outside of the game and be straight up with the person and try to make sure he is on the same page as you and understands what his behavior is causing. If he doesn't change or respond to this then i would say to leave him out of the sessions, especially if he makes playing the games a chore of an experience. I would definitely recommend discussing behaviors like this with a player as soon as they come up in the future to try and rectify them or prevent you from having to annex someone from the game. But i understand that hindsight is 20/20 and i wish you luck.
With the length of this rant, you need to have a serious sitdown with this player. You clearly already know what the issues are. Now explain them to him. If he still doesn't understand why he should stop, maybe he'll understand on his way out the door...
Last time I had such a disruptive, know-it-all, troublesome, hypocrite at my table I sent him packing, told him not to show up for any of my games in the future, and very publicly told him why. Subsequent sessions in that campaign were much less stressful.
Hey everyone thanks for reading and for any input.
So I'm the usual DM for almost any time my friends play. And most of the time things are great. Every DM runs into problem players, people who are on their phones and ignoring the game, or players that metagame. But I have a really particular player who is a problem in a way that I don't see discussed as much. We'll call this player Green Bean for reasons and to protect the not so innocent. So about a year ago I had invited several new friends who I'd never played D&D with before to join a campaign finale, as part of a huge battle between the good guys and the encroaching orc army.Green Bean made an Assassin Rogue with an edgy backstory of being an assassin whose home was destroyed and a dead family and how they were taken in by criminals. I introduced my new friends characters and gave them all a day of preparation and them getting into ridiculous shenanigans before the war. While the Bard(Who was an original member of the game before the new people) was performing stand up comedy at the local tavern, Green Bean decided to steal the Bard's unattended Lute and destroy it. This was a red flag that I wish I'd taken more seriously. At the end of the game Green Bean talked to a Good Dragon who'd helped the Good Guys in the battle and talked about wanting to do good things to redeem themselves for their past crimes. I looked at this as a good sign, as I had new ideas for a campaign with this Dragon leading a team of heroes unified as knights.
Well we've been playing that game and Green Bean has been playing their chaotic good character who wants redemption more like the stereotypical chaotic neutral jerk that no one likes. In the last year he has 1) berated a team member for making a deal with a hag, only to 1 minute later make a deal with a hag. And they attempted and failed to steal hair from the heads of innocent villagers for trade to the hag. 2)Berated a party member, the fighter, for not sneaking into a Fey Palace because they didn't want the Fey to know they were there. They didn't berate until after they had left and at no point did they ever ask people to sneak. Green Bean just instantly jumped to berating and attacking others for not reading his mind. Also they were there to speak to the owner of said palace so I have no clue why they didn't want them to know they were there. 3)He has started 4 more arguments with this same player. She doesn't do anything wrong, and she's kinda slow and bad with words so she's very bad at defending herself. It seems like every time he starts an argument, they just encountered something powerful, like the Archfey from the palace, a dragon, an agent of the Xanathar. So I think he gets super anxious whenever something powerful has its eye on them and he takes it out on her because it's easy. 4) He feels the need to be a part of every conversation. He needs to be everywhere making comments about everything and trying to be the person who knows everything about everything. 5) Context: All my games sorta take place all in the same universe. He broke into the blacksmiths shop of a player from a different game so that he could use the forge. His excuse was "If he was home I would've asked." Afterwards he was then arrested for breaking and entering, and put in a cell. He then threw a concealed knife at the guard in an attempt to escape. Keep in mind this is a small town militia guard, in the town they had just last year saved. He failed. 6) After the party encountered a Red Dragon attacking a Firbolg village and it escaped, the party was going to take a rest. As I said that happens, he interrupted to say he wanted to talk to the party's fighter. She said she wanted to recruit good-hearted people to join their order, he basically shot down everything she said, and instead mansplained that the only way to kill a dragon was with tons of magical items. He mansplained dragonslaying. To the only player/character at the table who has slain a dragon( And she did it with a party that had almost no magic items). He then proceeds to ask the Good Dragon if he knows of any Magic Item Stockpiles as if that's a thing. (They're in a small town on the frontier, there are no magic shops anywhere closeby.) He then continues berating the Fighter until boiled over and told them that I was sick and tired of him starting arguments, for no reason, in my game. 7) Nitpicking here but basically anytime anyone else does fun stuff or plays a character who acts silly he treats them like they're really stupid and just acts very superior. This is not a character choice, most of it is out of character comments. 8) I don't know if this qualifies as metagaming but he definitely acts like a know it all, all the time. He says what the NPC's or monsters are capable of to other players. Stuff like "Oh you know this NPC can cast that spell too." or "Oh this guardian monster is totally going to be an aboleth." The reason I don't think it's metagaming is that he's pretty consistently wrong. About rules, monsters, spells. Everything. I'll point out as the DM that he can't do a particular thing in the game and completely confidently he'll say "No it works this way" And so he pulls up the book so he can read on paper how he's wrong. I wouldn't mind this so much if it didn't slow down the game.
So I want to know what I can do about this problem player. I know some of you might be thinking, well maybe it's the girl who plays the fighter that's the problem. Well I've been playing with her even longer than I've known Green Bean and before him no one ever argued and made the game this stressful. It is definitely him. I record my games and put them on youtube. I can pinpoint the moments detailed here. My games used to be so much fun. Now I dread the ones with him in them because he'd made them so awful with his negativity and arguing. I was so excited to play with the characters that came out of that first game in the Orc war. I even set up a thing in the Feywild adventure where Green Bean came across a Moonblade, which as an elf they would be the only character who could use it. They haven't attuned to it yet because Moonblades are special and require special forms of attunement. But personally, even though I put it in the game for him to have, Moonblades are meant to be for a neutral good character who is a great example of elven virtue. Green Bean has been playing their character exactly the opposite of that, so my thinking says that the Moonblade won't accept them as their wielder. So my questions for you are should I kick this player out? Everyone I play with is friends with him, but at the same time we are all very aware that he's like this and unlike most groups of friend, I feel like most other players would understand it. Should I take this legendary item that was in the game for him and have it turn into a slap in the face because he didn't actually play his character as good character? Should I give him one more chance? I don't know, but I'm at wits end.
the fact that you've let it get this far tells me it's too far gone. normally, one would attempt to nip it in the bud by bringing this up early, but by the way you describe it, that was a long time ago and an opportunity not taken. you don't seem to describe any attempt at an intervention earlier in the piece.
at this point, your description of dreading games tells me that you are actually already in a toxic situation, and it needs to be immediately remedied. a suggested strategy: speak to the group (minus the offending player) about this behaviour, how you feel, and how everyone feels, and ask what they make of it - in all likelihood, they don't appreciate this either; if you have mandate, speak to the player, outline the reasons why this person isn't welcome, give them an opportunity to speak their peace, and bid them farewell.
When I play or run a game, the #1 thing I keep in mind is fun.
As a player, I will give the game a few sessions and maybe see if it improved, but if it's not fun, I will politely bow out. I may talk with the DM or other players first, but it's not always a thing that I feel has ever worked--sometimes certain groups don't gel.
As a DM, if I'm not having fun, I will analyze why. Is it a particular player? Is it an adventure path? Am I not being engaging enough? Are the players not having fun? I will do what I can to make the game fun for everyone in the group (including myself). If I find something that is causing the game to be not fun, I will try to fix it. In the situation you described, I'd talk to the person one-on-one and ask him (with particular points as you've described) why he feels the need to do these things out of character. I would have not let it get to the point where it boils over because at that point, I would have just killed his character off in a way that it couldn't be resurrected and asked him politely to leave. The problems I see with the situation is that he's out of control (out of character) and not being respectful of anyone else in the group. I have seen people play characters that were out of control because that's how their character was created, but that's different. You even mentioned that he plays his character in ways that don't match what his character shows (I have changed alignments to match how people play characters in the past without the player arguing because I warn them as they go).
In my opinion, you need to analyze your group to try to make it as fun as possible for all parties involved, and if there are things you can do (including removing people who don't work well with the group out of character) then you should do those things.
The length of your post suggests you already know the answer to this: Do you think 'another chance' will make a blind bit of difference?
Because it already sounds like you've given him dozens of chances - I'm just not sure what not removing him immediately from future sessions is going to achieve. Beyond more frustration and annoyance.
I'm no psychologist, but a few of the behaviours you've described sound like more out-of-character issues, that have spilled over into the game. He sounds insecure and immature; always wanting the attention, being unable to deal with consequences, and purposefully disrespectful of the table, the players, and yourself. It sounds like he's doing this to exert some semblance of what he believes to be authority - to feel important. Perhaps it's telling that most of his argumentative actions are targeted towards a girl in the group. For the most part, in real-life, this sort of behaviour gets one swiftly reprimanded; but unfortunately, in D&D, it's all to easy to treat it as 'just a game, so what's the problem?'
But ultimately, it has to be enjoyed - by everyone, including you. The fact you're deliberating over whether to hold back a magic item is completely missing the issue. How this character is even alive after what you've described is also quite surprising. Attacking a guard while in jail? How and why was he not immediately executed? Perhaps you could have a firmer hand at the table - rather than letting the frustration bubble up into an outburst, nip it in the bud early. Whether it's an out of character argument, or quibbling over rules, you have to swiftly shut the lid. If he can't respect you as the DM enough to shut up when you're making a ruling, even if that's, "We'll chat about that rule/issue/situation out of the session - I've made a note of it", then he's just a bad player. You don't have to suffer it.
As the others have suggested, your next step is a private chat with the others in the group. Relay your frustrations - chances are, the others are just as miffed about it. Follow that up with a private chat with Green Bean. Outline what you expect of the players at the table, and that he simply isn't fitting the mould.
But remember - while I firmly believe D&D is for everyone, not everyone should be at your table. Call it as you see it, my friend. Good luck!
I believe that you need to approach him outside of the game and be straight up with the person and try to make sure he is on the same page as you and understands what his behavior is causing. If he doesn't change or respond to this then i would say to leave him out of the sessions, especially if he makes playing the games a chore of an experience. I would definitely recommend discussing behaviors like this with a player as soon as they come up in the future to try and rectify them or prevent you from having to annex someone from the game. But i understand that hindsight is 20/20 and i wish you luck.
With the length of this rant, you need to have a serious sitdown with this player. You clearly already know what the issues are. Now explain them to him.
If he still doesn't understand why he should stop, maybe he'll understand on his way out the door...
Last time I had such a disruptive, know-it-all, troublesome, hypocrite at my table I sent him packing, told him not to show up for any of my games in the future, and very publicly told him why. Subsequent sessions in that campaign were much less stressful.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!