I'm rolling up a treasure horde for an adventure I'm planning. In said horde, I'm wanting to include a magic item formula. The formula will be for a "Piercing Weapon +1".
Now, I know it's my game and I could do whatever I like, I'd still love the input of my fellow dungeon masters. Would you allow the formula to add the "magic +1" to ANY piercing weapon they can make, or would you have the formula be only for a specific piercing weapon, like a rapier or a short sword?
I've been toying with the idea of having a "+1 gem" that can be affixed to any non-magical weapon. The gem can be removed but it destroys the weapon. I think having a magical "formula" to craft a magical weapon is neat, but I'd make sure that players would need necessary skill (blacksmithing and arcana, probably), material cost (look at crafting rules for costs), and time, I'd let players work together to make items. I guess my worry would be that my players would make tons of +1 weapons and ammunition if there weren't limits and costs involved (vials of poison via alchemy jug come to mind).
They still won't be able to crank out tons. There is still the downtime AND gold cost to consider. Plus, you NEED a formula to make a magic item. That's Rules As Written.
That's not a lot of information to go on, but I'm assuming the person who will be taking advantage of this magical item is someone who uses a piercing weapon, yes? Personally, I'd be more inclined to give them a +1 weapon that happens to be a piercing weapon, but if you wanted to give them something to apply to an existing weapon, you could make it an oil or the blood of some magical creature or something that they apply to the weapon and it absorbs into the item. Or you could have a grateful weaponsmith enhance their weapon to +1. Really, the only advantage for the player of having a formula of +1 to apply to a weapon versus finding a new weapon is that the player may choose to hold onto the formula and not apply it right away. Or maybe he already has a weapon that he is attached to for story reasons. In that case, I can see why you'd do that. You know, you could also make the formula non-transportable so they have to use it on the spot. Something like a fountain of icy blue liquid and when they plunge their weapon into it, the pool freezes solid, then shatters apart leaving the weapon coated in a magical blue aura. One and done.
It's really up to you how you want to frame magic weapons in your world - but I would ask, are magic items science, or art?
I'm aware of how magic item formula in the DMG ( pages 128-129 ) are described. I see a lot of people interpret that as "creating magical items is as simple as following a recipe".
That's purely a DM interpretation. It's not one I agree with, but you might.
You can either frame a formula as a specific set of instructions which are guaranteed to produce a result, or the legendary description of the trials and tribulations of a particular legendary wizard in creating an artifact. The former is like creating an Industrial Production process. The latter is kind of like reading a biography of Vincent van Gogh, or an auto-biography of Jackson Pollock; it might help you grasp the mindset and approach of the painter; it doesn't allow you to reproduce their work, although it may help you developing your own.
Which has more emotional impact? A sword that was steeped in Red Dragon blood for 3 cycles of the moon, then blessed by a Priest of Monty Haul, then kissed by a Dryad, and then ritualistically danced over by the Wizard while chanting the lyrics to Hooked on a Feeling - or Excalibur?
Science and algorithmic process vs. art.
To be frank, giving the Wizard a +1 weapon from a hoard, charging the Wizard 3,000gp to buy weapon from a merchant, or handing them a guaranteed formula,and then saying "OK, in downtime, you make one, mark off 1,000gp for materials", is really no different. Sense of adventure and accomplishment: minimal.
Giving them a legendary description of the forging of such a weapon, having them quest to uncover the particulars of each step of the formula ( or the equivalents suited to them ), and to acquire the materials to replicate something similar - turning the whole process into a major campaign arc - that gives the creation of the item weight. The Wizard feels they've earnedtheir creation.
As to fleshing out the mechanics of either approach, you'll find some common elements in most legendary descriptions:
Precious or Rare materials: Scales from a Red Dragon, minerals from Elemental Planes, Hair from an Arch Fey, etc.
Materials obtained under specific conditions: phases of moons , times of year, and/or by consent of the creature surrendering them ( sometimes at cost to the creature - so, make it worth their while ).
Rituals conducted at certain sacred or arcanely significant sites ( possibly guarded by creatures )
Rituals that can only be conducted by certain beings, or creatures in certain states, or with certain histories, or certain lineages ( which the Wizard isn't one ).
Doing some diving into mythology and the origin stories of legendary items and/or creatures will give you a lot more ideas.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Giving them a legendary description of the forging of such a weapon, having them quest to uncover the particulars of each step of the formula ( or the equivalents suited to them ), and to acquire the materials to replicate something similar - turning the whole process into a major campaign arc - that gives the creation of the item weight. The Wizard feels they've earnedtheir creation.
Agreed. I've found the crafting rules work best when paired with quests. The dead sorcerer Zarneywhoop had the secret of X buried with him, and his resting place is hidden, guarded, trapped, etc. and so on. That tends to help the players buy into the idea that they're making something really special when they are finally able to craft the thing. Unless your player has some really interesting role-play in mind for the downtime project, I'd say your best bet is to tack on a quest with it, one that advances your overall story. (Though +1 alone may be a little on the humdrum side for a quest.) Maybe you give the formula, but it requires really exotic components that send the PCs into a new campaign area you've been itching to introduce or something along those lines. And yes, I'd make the formula specific to a particular weapon so I don't have PCs turning into murder hobos so they can add +1 to every weapon they pick up. That makes it a little to video-gamey for my tastes, not to mention increasing the CR threshold.
I'm giving my player's what they want. They want to be able to create magic items by using a formula. My wizard player is getting fulfillment from this. He ENJOYS the idea. So I'm helping to facilitate his enjoyment. However, my original question still stands. No one has really offered their opinions on it.
Would you allow the formula to work for creating ANY piercing weapon? For example, he could create a +1 Rapier, or a +1 Dagger, or any +1 piercing weapon.
Or would you say the formula could be used only to create a specific weapon. For example, you can make a +1 Short Sword, but not any other piercing weapons, using this formula.
I think the former would be cooler and more fun. Plus they'll be finding this formula in an abandoned lab of a long dead mid-level wizard.
Giving them a legendary description of the forging of such a weapon, having them quest to uncover the particulars of each step of the formula ( or the equivalents suited to them ), and to acquire the materials to replicate something similar - turning the whole process into a major campaign arc - that gives the creation of the item weight. The Wizard feels they've earnedtheir creation.
Agreed. I've found the crafting rules work best when paired with quests. The dead sorcerer Zarneywhoop had the secret of X buried with him, and his resting place is hidden, guarded, trapped, etc. and so on. That tends to help the players buy into the idea that they're making something really special when they are finally able to craft the thing. Unless your player has some really interesting role-play in mind for the downtime project, I'd say your best bet is to tack on a quest with it, one that advances your overall story. (Though +1 alone may be a little on the humdrum side for a quest.) Maybe you give the formula, but it requires really exotic components that send the PCs into a new campaign area you've been itching to introduce or something along those lines. And yes, I'd make the formula specific to a particular weapon so I don't have PCs turning into murder hobos so they can add +1 to every weapon they pick up. That makes it a little to video-gamey for my tastes, not to mention increasing the CR threshold.
Good luck.
Thanks for the advice. I'm taking it all into consideration.
Would you allow the formula to work for creating ANY piercing weapon? For example, he could create a +1 Rapier, or a +1 Dagger, or any +1 piercing weapon.
Or would you say the formula could be used only to create a specific weapon. For example, you can make a +1 Short Sword, but not any other piercing weapons, using this formula.
I think the former would be cooler and more fun. Plus they'll be finding this formula in an abandoned lab of a long dead mid-level wizard.
As in most things, it really depends on your campaign world, and how common magic is, in your world.
Personally, in mine, I strive to make each magic item subtly unique - a reflection of the person that created it - so there is no such thing as a generic +1 longsword.
So - my take, for my game world, would be that the formula would only be for creating a specific weapon. However, I might give the wizard a head start in creating or adapting the formula to other weapon types, rather than making them devise a formula for a different weapon from the ground up.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Tossing my 2 cents in here, and for full disclosure: I really only skimmed over the replies.
I have always enjoyed the idea of allowing my players to craft anything, spells, weapons, armor, anything, the only requirement is their imagination and a plan that can be followed. 5e gave us a small excerpt on how to craft magical items, then it was expanded in Xanthar's, so we have some options to work with when it come to providing for this. I don't like most of what has been given for either of them, but that's me, so it doesn't count! The formula idea did strike me, a blueprint, an alchemical recipe, the groundwork that was set for crafting legendary items in the future, that was neat.
That all being said, formulas have a greater impact, in my opinion, when they are specific, difficult to find, and have the ability to be reverse engineered. So yea, a formula that enables them to craft a +1 rapier, written in such a way that, if the wizard was inclined, it could be researched and toyed with to figure out how to do the same process to a war hammer.
Reviving this old post as I search for references to "formula" because I am interested in thoughts surrounding magic item formulas as well.
The DMG references the need for a formula to craft a magic item and Xanathar's says this: "To start with, a character needs a formula for a magic item in order to create it. The formula is like a recipe. It lists the materials needed and steps required to make the item." But other than that, I don't think there is much discussion in the rules, whereas it is clear that to get the materials (which are outlined in said formula) for the crafting you should require the players to go on an adventure to secure them involving encounters with appropriately challenging creatures.
To answer the original question in this post, whether you limit your formula to a specific type of weapon or allow it to be applied universally to any type of weapon seems to be entirely left up to the creativity of the DM. I would allow the formula to apply to any +1 weapon, as a general rule. But perhaps there is some story based reason to limit the formula to a specific weapon. A formula for a specific type of beer produces the distinctive beer, and it can go into a 12 ounce bottle, a 16 ounce can, or a growler. It is still beer.
I think the important things I would feature in making a magical item would be Time and Money. I would avoid beong overly specific in the ingredients, so might say that to make a poisoned weapon you need "500gp worth of materials, and a vial of poison from a poisonous/venomous creature". Then I would say that the process requires downtime - "The ingredients must be combined into a Philter and then hammered into the steel as it is forged. This process takes 1 week". Then I would have an Arcana roll to see how successful the magic is, and a Smiths Tools roll to see how successful the forging was. The forging would give a modifier to the worth of the weapon, based on whether it looks crude or is beautiful, and the magic will dictate how much damage it can do, and have a table of worth based on that. For example:
Smiths Roll
Modifier
10 or less
0.5
11 to 15
1
16 to 20
1.5
20+
2
Arcana Roll
additional Effect
value
10 or less
1 poison damage
50gp
11 to 15
1d4 poison damage
100gp
16 to 20
1d6 poison damage
500gp
20+
1d8 poison damage
1000gp
(all numbers promptly made up on the spot)
This temlate would be how I would implement magical Swords. There would need to also be methods for making non-metallic weapons and ammunition as well, which would need their own method, but the goal would be a combination of Craftsmanship and Magical Effect, so you could have 2 characters team up to smith and cast, or an artificer could feasibly do both!
A formula for a specific type of beer produces the distinctive beer, and it can go into a 12 ounce bottle, a 16 ounce can, or a growler. It is still beer.
I speak on behalf of all the people from England here when I say "That escalated quickly!"
A "Growler" is something veeeery different in the UK.
I'm rolling up a treasure horde for an adventure I'm planning. In said horde, I'm wanting to include a magic item formula. The formula will be for a "Piercing Weapon +1".
Now, I know it's my game and I could do whatever I like, I'd still love the input of my fellow dungeon masters. Would you allow the formula to add the "magic +1" to ANY piercing weapon they can make, or would you have the formula be only for a specific piercing weapon, like a rapier or a short sword?
Dungeonmastering since 1992!
I've been toying with the idea of having a "+1 gem" that can be affixed to any non-magical weapon. The gem can be removed but it destroys the weapon. I think having a magical "formula" to craft a magical weapon is neat, but I'd make sure that players would need necessary skill (blacksmithing and arcana, probably), material cost (look at crafting rules for costs), and time, I'd let players work together to make items. I guess my worry would be that my players would make tons of +1 weapons and ammunition if there weren't limits and costs involved (vials of poison via alchemy jug come to mind).
They still won't be able to crank out tons. There is still the downtime AND gold cost to consider. Plus, you NEED a formula to make a magic item. That's Rules As Written.
Dungeonmastering since 1992!
That's not a lot of information to go on, but I'm assuming the person who will be taking advantage of this magical item is someone who uses a piercing weapon, yes? Personally, I'd be more inclined to give them a +1 weapon that happens to be a piercing weapon, but if you wanted to give them something to apply to an existing weapon, you could make it an oil or the blood of some magical creature or something that they apply to the weapon and it absorbs into the item. Or you could have a grateful weaponsmith enhance their weapon to +1. Really, the only advantage for the player of having a formula of +1 to apply to a weapon versus finding a new weapon is that the player may choose to hold onto the formula and not apply it right away. Or maybe he already has a weapon that he is attached to for story reasons. In that case, I can see why you'd do that. You know, you could also make the formula non-transportable so they have to use it on the spot. Something like a fountain of icy blue liquid and when they plunge their weapon into it, the pool freezes solid, then shatters apart leaving the weapon coated in a magical blue aura. One and done.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I'm wanting to include the formula in the treasure horde.
The wizard in the group is wanting to try his hand at magic item creation during downtime. So just giving them a magic weapon defeats that purpose.
Also, formulas don't disappear when you use them. They are essentially a recipe for a magic item.
Have any of you read the part in the DMG or XGtE about magic item formulas? LOL! I'm starting to feel like no one has read either.
Dungeonmastering since 1992!
Sounds like I don't have anything to offer this conversation then.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It's really up to you how you want to frame magic weapons in your world - but I would ask, are magic items science, or art?
I'm aware of how magic item formula in the DMG ( pages 128-129 ) are described. I see a lot of people interpret that as "creating magical items is as simple as following a recipe".
That's purely a DM interpretation. It's not one I agree with, but you might.
You can either frame a formula as a specific set of instructions which are guaranteed to produce a result, or the legendary description of the trials and tribulations of a particular legendary wizard in creating an artifact. The former is like creating an Industrial Production process. The latter is kind of like reading a biography of Vincent van Gogh, or an auto-biography of Jackson Pollock; it might help you grasp the mindset and approach of the painter; it doesn't allow you to reproduce their work, although it may help you developing your own.
Which has more emotional impact? A sword that was steeped in Red Dragon blood for 3 cycles of the moon, then blessed by a Priest of Monty Haul, then kissed by a Dryad, and then ritualistically danced over by the Wizard while chanting the lyrics to Hooked on a Feeling - or Excalibur?
Science and algorithmic process vs. art.
To be frank, giving the Wizard a +1 weapon from a hoard, charging the Wizard 3,000gp to buy weapon from a merchant, or handing them a guaranteed formula,and then saying "OK, in downtime, you make one, mark off 1,000gp for materials", is really no different. Sense of adventure and accomplishment: minimal.
Giving them a legendary description of the forging of such a weapon, having them quest to uncover the particulars of each step of the formula ( or the equivalents suited to them ), and to acquire the materials to replicate something similar - turning the whole process into a major campaign arc - that gives the creation of the item weight. The Wizard feels they've earned their creation.
As to fleshing out the mechanics of either approach, you'll find some common elements in most legendary descriptions:
Doing some diving into mythology and the origin stories of legendary items and/or creatures will give you a lot more ideas.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Agreed. I've found the crafting rules work best when paired with quests. The dead sorcerer Zarneywhoop had the secret of X buried with him, and his resting place is hidden, guarded, trapped, etc. and so on. That tends to help the players buy into the idea that they're making something really special when they are finally able to craft the thing. Unless your player has some really interesting role-play in mind for the downtime project, I'd say your best bet is to tack on a quest with it, one that advances your overall story. (Though +1 alone may be a little on the humdrum side for a quest.) Maybe you give the formula, but it requires really exotic components that send the PCs into a new campaign area you've been itching to introduce or something along those lines. And yes, I'd make the formula specific to a particular weapon so I don't have PCs turning into murder hobos so they can add +1 to every weapon they pick up. That makes it a little to video-gamey for my tastes, not to mention increasing the CR threshold.
Good luck.
Recently returned to D&D after 20+ years.
Unapologetic.
I'm giving my player's what they want. They want to be able to create magic items by using a formula. My wizard player is getting fulfillment from this. He ENJOYS the idea. So I'm helping to facilitate his enjoyment. However, my original question still stands. No one has really offered their opinions on it.
Would you allow the formula to work for creating ANY piercing weapon? For example, he could create a +1 Rapier, or a +1 Dagger, or any +1 piercing weapon.
Or would you say the formula could be used only to create a specific weapon. For example, you can make a +1 Short Sword, but not any other piercing weapons, using this formula.
I think the former would be cooler and more fun. Plus they'll be finding this formula in an abandoned lab of a long dead mid-level wizard.
Dungeonmastering since 1992!
Also, I'm not worried about murder hobo nonsense. My group is mature.
Dungeonmastering since 1992!
Thanks for the advice. I'm taking it all into consideration.
Dungeonmastering since 1992!
As in most things, it really depends on your campaign world, and how common magic is, in your world.
Personally, in mine, I strive to make each magic item subtly unique - a reflection of the person that created it - so there is no such thing as a generic +1 longsword.
So - my take, for my game world, would be that the formula would only be for creating a specific weapon. However, I might give the wizard a head start in creating or adapting the formula to other weapon types, rather than making them devise a formula for a different weapon from the ground up.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Tossing my 2 cents in here, and for full disclosure: I really only skimmed over the replies.
I have always enjoyed the idea of allowing my players to craft anything, spells, weapons, armor, anything, the only requirement is their imagination and a plan that can be followed. 5e gave us a small excerpt on how to craft magical items, then it was expanded in Xanthar's, so we have some options to work with when it come to providing for this. I don't like most of what has been given for either of them, but that's me, so it doesn't count! The formula idea did strike me, a blueprint, an alchemical recipe, the groundwork that was set for crafting legendary items in the future, that was neat.
That all being said, formulas have a greater impact, in my opinion, when they are specific, difficult to find, and have the ability to be reverse engineered. So yea, a formula that enables them to craft a +1 rapier, written in such a way that, if the wizard was inclined, it could be researched and toyed with to figure out how to do the same process to a war hammer.
Reviving this old post as I search for references to "formula" because I am interested in thoughts surrounding magic item formulas as well.
The DMG references the need for a formula to craft a magic item and Xanathar's says this: "To start with, a character needs a formula for a magic item in order to create it. The formula is like a recipe. It lists the materials needed and steps required to make the item." But other than that, I don't think there is much discussion in the rules, whereas it is clear that to get the materials (which are outlined in said formula) for the crafting you should require the players to go on an adventure to secure them involving encounters with appropriately challenging creatures.
To answer the original question in this post, whether you limit your formula to a specific type of weapon or allow it to be applied universally to any type of weapon seems to be entirely left up to the creativity of the DM. I would allow the formula to apply to any +1 weapon, as a general rule. But perhaps there is some story based reason to limit the formula to a specific weapon. A formula for a specific type of beer produces the distinctive beer, and it can go into a 12 ounce bottle, a 16 ounce can, or a growler. It is still beer.
I think the important things I would feature in making a magical item would be Time and Money. I would avoid beong overly specific in the ingredients, so might say that to make a poisoned weapon you need "500gp worth of materials, and a vial of poison from a poisonous/venomous creature". Then I would say that the process requires downtime - "The ingredients must be combined into a Philter and then hammered into the steel as it is forged. This process takes 1 week". Then I would have an Arcana roll to see how successful the magic is, and a Smiths Tools roll to see how successful the forging was. The forging would give a modifier to the worth of the weapon, based on whether it looks crude or is beautiful, and the magic will dictate how much damage it can do, and have a table of worth based on that. For example:
1000gp
(all numbers promptly made up on the spot)
This temlate would be how I would implement magical Swords. There would need to also be methods for making non-metallic weapons and ammunition as well, which would need their own method, but the goal would be a combination of Craftsmanship and Magical Effect, so you could have 2 characters team up to smith and cast, or an artificer could feasibly do both!
I speak on behalf of all the people from England here when I say "That escalated quickly!"
A "Growler" is something veeeery different in the UK.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
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