So, I didn't look too terribly hard to try to find a discussion on this, so if there already is one, please feel free to link it.
Anyway, so there are a couple scenarios I'd like to discuss within this conundrum.
1. Someone using Detect Magic to see several magic effects on a target.
1a. These several magic effects are all different schools of magic. Can someone target one of the specific schools with a Dispel Magic? e.g. There is a chest with one of each Abjuration, Evocation, Transmutation, and Conjuration magic on it. Would you allow a player/npc to specifically target one of these successfully?
1b. There are several magic effects of the same school of magic. Would you decide randomly via roll, or allow them to pick (in that they guess what effect might be on it and target that if it is, indeed, one of the effects, and is otherwise chosen randomly if not)? e.g. There is a chest with three different Evocation magic effects on it. Would you just roll 1d4 (reroll 4s) to determine which effect was dispelled? Would you allow a player/npc to try and specifically target, say, "the most powerful/dangerous" effect on it?
2. This one is similar to 1b - if a target has, say, Nystul's Magic Aura on it, and thus isn't showing the current use of, say, Disguise Self on it via Detect Magic, how would you go about someone casting Dispel Magic on this target? Would you just allow a roll to determine which effect is dispelled?
I think I had other examples, but can't remember them right now. Please feel free to expand on this.
The target of Dispel Magic is a creature, an object, or a specific magical effect. Those are the only options. You don't choose a school of magic.
If you choose a creature or object, every spell effect on the creature or object has a chance to end. If you choose a specific effect, only that effect ends.
The target of Dispel Magic is a creature, an object, or a specific magical effect. Those are the only options. You don't choose a school of magic.
If you choose a creature or object, every spell effect on the creature or object has a chance to end. If you choose a specific effect, only that effect ends.
To put the whole thing another way; lets say a character walks up to a treasure chest, (rightly) assumes it's magically trapped, and just "blindly" casts Dispel Magic on it. How do you handle that if there were, in fact, multiple enchantments on the target? Just roll an appropriate die? Something else?
It does answer your question. The target of Dispel Magic would have to be the chest. Then, the normal text of Dispel Magic resolves.
Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a successful check, the spell ends.
It does answer your question. The target of Dispel Magic would have to be the chest. Then, the normal text of Dispel Magic resolves.
Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a successful check, the spell ends.
No, it doesn't.
Dispel Magic only ends one magical effect on one target. The question is - how do you determine, then, which magical effect is dispelled if there is more than one on the target?
Yes it does. Re-read the text of Dispel Magic more carefully, then re-read what I posted. The premise of your question is incorrect.
Dispel Magic only ends one magical effect on one target. The question is - how do you determine, then, which magical effect is dispelled if there is more than one on the target?
If the target is a creature or an object, every spell on that target is subjected to Dispel Magic.
If the target is a specific magical effect, the caster has already chosen for you.
The question of determining which magical effect is affected is never going to come up.
I'd like to hop on in and mention that the OP is correct in their interpretation of the spell.
"Any" is not the word to describe quantity itself. That falls on the noun of "spell" in this context. So, according to simple grammar conventions, Dispel Magic dispels any ("not specific" as in "can't be directly chosen", a la "random") [one] spell (not plural).
If I were GMing and I had a dispeller in my group and I was enchanting several things on one item, I'd take note of the spell level of each effect. If dispel magic is not upcast, it would apply to the simplest affect that it could dispel.
a: one or another taken at random (Ask any man you meet.)
b: EVERY—used to indicate one selected without restriction (Any child would know that.)
2: one, some, or all indiscriminately of whatever quantity:
a: one or more —used to indicate an undetermined number or amount (Do you have any money?)
b: ALL—used to indicate a maximum or whole (He needs any help he can get.)
c: a or some without reference to quantity or extent (I'd be grateful for any favor at all.)
3a: unmeasured or unlimited in amount, number, or extent (any quantity you desire)
b: appreciably large or extended (could not endure it any length of time)
Emphasis mine.
So the use of any can mean what you said or it can mean all spells. To know which you take the whole of text to find out the content which gives you the intended meaning.
Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a successful check, the spell ends.
The part I put in bold there is important. For each implies more than one - otherwise you'd just say "If the spell is" instead.
With this in mind the intention is therefore the "all" meaning of the word "any". Dispel Magic affects all spells on the target. The reason why it does not just say "all" is because you have the option to target a specific spell instead of all if you want ("magical effect") and "any" allows for that option but "all" would not.
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The description specifically says, "Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends."
"Any" is plural. If it was intended otherwise, it would say, "A spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends."
It even elaborates for spells higher than 3rd level... "For each spell...."
In fairness, "any spell" is definitely singular while "any spells" is plural. They may well have meant "any and all spells" but you have to admit it's easy to get tripped up on that, especially at a glance.
In fairness, "any spell" is definitely singular while "any spells" is plural. They may well have meant "any and all spells" but you have to admit it's easy to get tripped up on that, especially at a glance.
I'm afraid using the word "any" does not make sense if there is only one spell. It implies more than one spell. If it was singular, it would have to be "A spell".
I'm afraid using the word "any" does not make sense if there is only one spell. It implies more than one spell. If it was singular, it would have to be "A spell".
Whoa. Hold up a minute. Are you suggesting that the indefinite pronoun "any" can never be used in a singular context?
For starters, words find their meaning within the context they are used in, and simply opening a dictionary to argue for one meaning and not taking into account the context is a pathway to error.
In the context, the use of "any" is part of a filter, a condition: "Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends." That is, for each spell currently active on the target, if it is lvl 3 or less, it ends. We know this because the second part is written as if it takes care of the case for other spells > lvl 3, i.e. >= lvl 4. "For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target" etc.
Getting back to the subject of Dispel Magic, I think the point of confusion (and I can only speak for myself) is where it says a single magical effect. Why would I ever pick a single magical effect when I can pick a creature and dispel all the effects? That question speaks more to the way I use the spell and less to the capabilities of the spell itself.
It wasn’t until I really thought about why someone might pick an effect instead that it made sense to me. Either there is no creature or object present (invisibility, for instance) or else there may be some effects the caster wishes to preserve while just stripping away a single effect.
At any rate, I think it is pretty clear by now how the spell works, but I still think it could be written a bit more clearly and also more simply.
It wasn’t until I really thought about why someone might pick an effect instead that it made sense to me. Either there is no creature or object present (invisibility, for instance) or else there may be some effects the caster wishes to preserve while just stripping away a single effect.
Invisibility isn't a good example since it targets a creature. A better example would be a spell like Web or Flaming Sphere.
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Ignore me, please. I are the stupid...
Not a very clear title, I know. Sorry.So, I didn't look too terribly hard to try to find a discussion on this, so if there already is one, please feel free to link it.Anyway, so there are a couple scenarios I'd like to discuss within this conundrum.1. Someone using Detect Magic to see several magic effects on a target.1a. These several magic effects are all different schools of magic. Can someone target one of the specific schools with a Dispel Magic?e.g. There is a chest with one of each Abjuration, Evocation, Transmutation, and Conjuration magic on it. Would you allow a player/npc to specifically target one of these successfully?1b. There are several magic effects of the same school of magic. Would you decide randomly via roll, or allow them to pick (in that they guess what effect might be on it and target that if it is, indeed, one of the effects, and is otherwise chosen randomly if not)?e.g. There is a chest with three different Evocation magic effects on it. Would you just roll 1d4 (reroll 4s) to determine which effect was dispelled? Would you allow a player/npc to try and specifically target, say, "the most powerful/dangerous" effect on it?2. This one is similar to 1b - if a target has, say, Nystul's Magic Aura on it, and thus isn't showing the current use of, say, Disguise Self on it via Detect Magic, how would you go about someone casting Dispel Magic on this target? Would you just allow a roll to determine which effect is dispelled?I think I had other examples, but can't remember them right now. Please feel free to expand on this.Thanks in advance for your advice!The target of Dispel Magic is a creature, an object, or a specific magical effect. Those are the only options. You don't choose a school of magic.
If you choose a creature or object, every spell effect on the creature or object has a chance to end. If you choose a specific effect, only that effect ends.
Identify can reveal spells on an object that's had Nystul's Magic Aura cast on it.
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This doesn't answer the question I had.
To put the whole thing another way; lets say a character walks up to a treasure chest, (rightly) assumes it's magically trapped, and just "blindly" casts Dispel Magic on it. How do you handle that if there were, in fact, multiple enchantments on the target? Just roll an appropriate die? Something else?
It does answer your question. The target of Dispel Magic would have to be the chest. Then, the normal text of Dispel Magic resolves.
No, it doesn't.
Dispel Magic only ends one magical effect on one target. The question is - how do you determine, then, which magical effect is dispelled if there is more than one on the target?
It does answer your question.
The description specifically says, "Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends."
"Any" is plural. If it was intended otherwise, it would say, "A spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends."
It even elaborates for spells higher than 3rd level... "For each spell...."
Yes it does. Re-read the text of Dispel Magic more carefully, then re-read what I posted. The premise of your question is incorrect.
If the target is a creature or an object, every spell on that target is subjected to Dispel Magic.
If the target is a specific magical effect, the caster has already chosen for you.
The question of determining which magical effect is affected is never going to come up.
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Well, aren't I the idiot, then? -_-
Shows me for asking a question without reminding myself of what the spell actually says...
kcoolthanx...
Any is defined as:
Emphasis mine.
So the use of any can mean what you said or it can mean all spells. To know which you take the whole of text to find out the content which gives you the intended meaning.
The part I put in bold there is important. For each implies more than one - otherwise you'd just say "If the spell is" instead.
With this in mind the intention is therefore the "all" meaning of the word "any". Dispel Magic affects all spells on the target. The reason why it does not just say "all" is because you have the option to target a specific spell instead of all if you want ("magical effect") and "any" allows for that option but "all" would not.
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In fairness, "any spell" is definitely singular while "any spells" is plural. They may well have meant "any and all spells" but you have to admit it's easy to get tripped up on that, especially at a glance.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I'm afraid using the word "any" does not make sense if there is only one spell. It implies more than one spell. If it was singular, it would have to be "A spell".
Whoa. Hold up a minute. Are you suggesting that the indefinite pronoun "any" can never be used in a singular context?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Why are we arguing the semantics of "any"?
For starters, words find their meaning within the context they are used in, and simply opening a dictionary to argue for one meaning and not taking into account the context is a pathway to error.
In the context, the use of "any" is part of a filter, a condition: "Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends." That is, for each spell currently active on the target, if it is lvl 3 or less, it ends. We know this because the second part is written as if it takes care of the case for other spells > lvl 3, i.e. >= lvl 4. "For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target" etc.
Exactly!
Getting back to the subject of Dispel Magic, I think the point of confusion (and I can only speak for myself) is where it says a single magical effect. Why would I ever pick a single magical effect when I can pick a creature and dispel all the effects? That question speaks more to the way I use the spell and less to the capabilities of the spell itself.
It wasn’t until I really thought about why someone might pick an effect instead that it made sense to me. Either there is no creature or object present (invisibility, for instance) or else there may be some effects the caster wishes to preserve while just stripping away a single effect.
At any rate, I think it is pretty clear by now how the spell works, but I still think it could be written a bit more clearly and also more simply.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Invisibility isn't a good example since it targets a creature. A better example would be a spell like Web or Flaming Sphere.
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