I have been going utterly insane. Whenever I read an article or look around the forums, people are always saying that how i play and what my group enjoys is wrong: As a DM i like lots of tactical combat, usually in dungeons with exploration of cool areas, and as a player i enjoy min-maxing and looting areas. Apparently i am objectively wrong. does anybody else notice this, or am i just already insane.
The whole point of the game is to have fun with people. If you're having fun and everyone else is having fun, who cares? It's important to keep things like narrative storytelling and character development in mind just as a tool in the toolbox in case you start feeling worn out by combat.
D&D has shifted away from it's wargame/simulation roots into a narrative based game. With the plethora of people out there playing D&D and showing story/narrative based games, with video games being a large inspiration, and with people wanting to be bigger than life heroes, the shift is not so surprising.
There's nothing wrong with your play style, feel validated, it's just not the most common approach anymore. Back in 3.5, min/maxing and shooting for hugantic numbers was very common in the circles I played in. Dungeon crawls, where the whole purpose of the game was to kill everything and bring anything not nailed to the floor back to town, were the name of the game. Going even further back, players had to draw maps, the DM didn't do it for them, encumbrance, ammunition, rations, frequent deaths, and many other things that are hand waved today, were as common as rolling a d6.
Enjoy your game your way, if the group doesn't find it acceptable, make some compromises, or find/make a game that fits your style.
D&D is a game where your goals as a DM - or Player - and the style of the game, can ( and IMHO should be ) be vastly personalized.
None of those design choices, or style choices, is wrong if it results in a game which you and your Players enjoy. Goals, values, and game styles are highly personal. If you want to stuff your games full of combat, and loot, and your Players like it, go for it.
On the flip side, if you come out here asking if your approach is a good one, or for critical feedback on your game design - and you do that, a lot - essentially, about whether or not your plans and approaches will attain those goals? That's a different kettle of fish, entirely. Whether or not an approach, or a story idea, or a homebrew mechanic will give you the results you say your want, is far less subjective.
As an analogy - where you decide to travel to is totally up to you, and no one has the right to tell you where you should be going. But, If you're asking for ideas on how to get there, or whether it's a good idea to follow such-and-such a road - that's not purely a matter of opinion, there are some actual facts tied up in that question and its answers.
If you're unhappy with the advice you're getting out here - and it sure sounds like you are - then I would suggest that you make it clearer what kind of advice you're looking for, or within what parameters, or for what kind of gaming style, you're trying to solve a problem. Also learn to evaluate and consider the advice and opinions expressed, if they fall within the scope of your original question.
Back to the analogy - if you don't tell people where you really want to go, or how you want to travel, then you're not going to get great travel advice when you ask for it.
In short, ask honest, complete questions about what you reallyactually want advice and feedback about, and make it clear what the context of your game style is. Don't ask for story advice, if what you really want to do is set up a 1970's era style string of Dungeon crawls.
If you do that - pay attention to those that answer honestly the questions you're asking, evaluate their advice objectively and honestly - and ignore advice which goes off on meaningless digressions, or gets tied up in side issues you never asked about - I think you'll be a lot less frustrated with forums and feedback.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
The reason wargamer DMs and Min/maxed characters are generally frowned upon is because they disrupt the game for players and DMs who were expecting a different kind of game.
As long as everybody knows what kind of play style to expect and is having fun, it doesn't matter how you play.
Another wrinkle to this - since it's come up: There are going to people with differing opinions in everything ( not just D&D ); sometime those opinions are right.
The trick is to know what it is you want ( or believe ), and to be able to clearly define and defend that position. Then you can - and IMHO should - listen to contrary opinions, and unfriendly evaluation of your position.
You do not have to follow any of it, or take any of it seriously, but your should fairly evaluate it. You should also never take it as a personal assault on you. Developing the strength of character and the self-esteem to take criticism of your positions, without considering it a criticism of yourself, is part of becoming an adult ( and at least 5% of us grow up, before we reach the age of 130, according to that metric :p ).
The vast majority of the time, you will most likely come to the conclusion "OK, they value, or are trying to achieve this, and I'm trying to achieve that - so their arguments don't really apply to me", or - and this happens a lot - "they say they're trying to do this but they're doing that, which doesn't lead at all to the goal they claim they're heading for - so they're either just bad at what they're doing ( or they're lying ), so maybe I won't take their arguments all that seriously". Once in a very blue moon, you will run across arguments and considerations that are new to you, and find yourself changing your position. That does not always mean changing your goals or values - just refining your approach based on ideas and arguments you hadn't considered before.
That's a lot of work - but I think it's important to examine and fairly/logically evaluate other viewpoints. To not do so - to merely remove and/or censor anyone whose position isn't yours - that's a large cause of the social mess we have today. Go out on social media to see the intractable camps on any topic, who yell at each other, congratulate people who agree with them, send each other inflammatory and hopeless inaccurate memes, and are generally very careful to shield themselves from any material which might bruise their delicate world view. That's not social discussion, that's social interaction gone gangrenous.
Know your wants and values, listen, understand, consider, fairly evaluate, and - on occasion - have the strength of character to realize that ( based on your goals, values, and beliefs ) other people have ideas worth incorporating into your own. Don't just declare yourself "right", and drown out anyone who isn't just like you.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
seems I got a "warning" from the previous post I made. literally proving my point. Of having to get in line with the "inclusive crowd" or get excluded. It has nothing to do with growing up. If you grow up you'll accept there are others with differing opinions. In reality it has become a one way street. Those people need to grow up indeed.
So keep sending all the warnings and proving my point ;)
Once again to the OP. Try finding another D&D online community that is more in line with your needs and how you want to play the game.
actually, this being a mistake i make often i just realized that i got bored at about 9 pm. my brain, having a natural aversion to being bored, decided to be angry instead. I apologize for the harsh wording, i was just annoyed there was no advice on running this type of game.
There is not a correct way to play D&D, it is an amorphous game that caters to vastly different play-styles. Like the Pirate's Code, D&D rules can be a guideline or you can stick to them religiously, it is your choice. That is what is so great about D&D.
I have been going utterly insane. Whenever I read an article or look around the forums, people are always saying that how i play and what my group enjoys is wrong: As a DM i like lots of tactical combat, usually in dungeons with exploration of cool areas, and as a player i enjoy min-maxing and looting areas. Apparently i am objectively wrong
You're playing right. Objectively: D&D is a gamist system that leans towards tactical combat in dungeons, exploring cool areas, min-maxing and looting. Always has been.
Meanwhile: articles (and the vocal minority) lean towards advocating for view outside that niche (possibly due to 4e backlash)... but that's a good thing. Growth is good. But don't let their focus gaslight you into thinking your style is rare.
Y'know what movie the term "gaslight" comes from? Gaslight is a 1944 American mystery-thriller film, adapted from Patrick Hamilton's 1938 play Gas Light, about a woman whose husband slowly manipulates her into believing that she is going insane. Very appropriate.
Meanwhile: articles (and the vocal minority) lean towards advocating for view outside that niche (possibly due to 4e backlash)... but that's a good thing. Growth is good. But don't let their focus gaslight you into thinking your style is rare.
I dont think that for 5e, people who are focusing more on story-driven and role-play driven campaigns are the "vocal minority." Many of the official modules for 5e are made to have alot more going on with the lore and characters outside of the featured tactical dungeon crawls and major combat events in the module. Not to mention podcast campaigns like Critical Role are much more heavily role-play oriented than combat or dungeon oriented (perhaps I am wrong in this statement, I am currently only 12 episodes into Campaign 2 but so far there is been very little combat compared to the time spent outside of it).
While I agree that no one should tell you how to play or that your playstyle is wrong (D&D is in its nature a customizable game), I still disagree that the people who advocate for role-play over min-maxing and looting make up the minority of people the D&D 5e community
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Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews!Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
As long as the DM and the players agree on the format of the game - then that's the correct format.
Period.
It's your game. All that matters in your game is that you and your players are happy. That's it. If somebody in the DnD Forums disagrees with your style of play - they don't have to play in your game. Because it's your game. Not theirs. They can go play their game the way they want, and you can play your game the way you want.
Trust me, I've been playing D&D for a long time. I've played with very different kinds of DMs and players. And never - not once EVER - have the D&D Police knocked on my door late at night to tell me that I was under arrest for rolling magic missile damage dice separately instead of rolling once and tripling it.
Because there are no D&D Police.
Because it's a game. Your game! As long as your players understand what your format is, and they're happy with it, then you are doing it correctly.
But that's just my 2 copper pieces.
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Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
It has been my long experience that nothing about playing D&D could be considered "organized".
:-)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
It has been my long experience that nothing about playing D&D could be considered "organized".
:-)
Completely off-topic: I understand you are joking, but my participation in Organized Play (and Rules forums) over the years has shown me some extremely organized (and even 'policed') activities. It's out there.
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I have been going utterly insane. Whenever I read an article or look around the forums, people are always saying that how i play and what my group enjoys is wrong: As a DM i like lots of tactical combat, usually in dungeons with exploration of cool areas, and as a player i enjoy min-maxing and looting areas. Apparently i am objectively wrong. does anybody else notice this, or am i just already insane.
I did NOT eat those hikers.
The whole point of the game is to have fun with people. If you're having fun and everyone else is having fun, who cares? It's important to keep things like narrative storytelling and character development in mind just as a tool in the toolbox in case you start feeling worn out by combat.
But hell, you do you friend.
D&D has shifted away from it's wargame/simulation roots into a narrative based game. With the plethora of people out there playing D&D and showing story/narrative based games, with video games being a large inspiration, and with people wanting to be bigger than life heroes, the shift is not so surprising.
There's nothing wrong with your play style, feel validated, it's just not the most common approach anymore. Back in 3.5, min/maxing and shooting for hugantic numbers was very common in the circles I played in. Dungeon crawls, where the whole purpose of the game was to kill everything and bring anything not nailed to the floor back to town, were the name of the game. Going even further back, players had to draw maps, the DM didn't do it for them, encumbrance, ammunition, rations, frequent deaths, and many other things that are hand waved today, were as common as rolling a d6.
Enjoy your game your way, if the group doesn't find it acceptable, make some compromises, or find/make a game that fits your style.
If you and your players are having fun, then you are playing D&D correctly. No matter what form that takes.
To quote Jeremy Crawford, find your bliss!
Find me on Twitter: @OboeLauren
D&D is a game where your goals as a DM - or Player - and the style of the game, can ( and IMHO should be ) be vastly personalized.
None of those design choices, or style choices, is wrong if it results in a game which you and your Players enjoy. Goals, values, and game styles are highly personal. If you want to stuff your games full of combat, and loot, and your Players like it, go for it.
On the flip side, if you come out here asking if your approach is a good one, or for critical feedback on your game design - and you do that, a lot - essentially, about whether or not your plans and approaches will attain those goals? That's a different kettle of fish, entirely. Whether or not an approach, or a story idea, or a homebrew mechanic will give you the results you say your want, is far less subjective.
As an analogy - where you decide to travel to is totally up to you, and no one has the right to tell you where you should be going. But, If you're asking for ideas on how to get there, or whether it's a good idea to follow such-and-such a road - that's not purely a matter of opinion, there are some actual facts tied up in that question and its answers.
If you're unhappy with the advice you're getting out here - and it sure sounds like you are - then I would suggest that you make it clearer what kind of advice you're looking for, or within what parameters, or for what kind of gaming style, you're trying to solve a problem. Also learn to evaluate and consider the advice and opinions expressed, if they fall within the scope of your original question.
Back to the analogy - if you don't tell people where you really want to go, or how you want to travel, then you're not going to get great travel advice when you ask for it.
In short, ask honest, complete questions about what you really actually want advice and feedback about, and make it clear what the context of your game style is. Don't ask for story advice, if what you really want to do is set up a 1970's era style string of Dungeon crawls.
If you do that - pay attention to those that answer honestly the questions you're asking, evaluate their advice objectively and honestly - and ignore advice which goes off on meaningless digressions, or gets tied up in side issues you never asked about - I think you'll be a lot less frustrated with forums and feedback.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
The reason wargamer DMs and Min/maxed characters are generally frowned upon is because they disrupt the game for players and DMs who were expecting a different kind of game.
As long as everybody knows what kind of play style to expect and is having fun, it doesn't matter how you play.
Another wrinkle to this - since it's come up: There are going to people with differing opinions in everything ( not just D&D ); sometime those opinions are right.
The trick is to know what it is you want ( or believe ), and to be able to clearly define and defend that position. Then you can - and IMHO should - listen to contrary opinions, and unfriendly evaluation of your position.
You do not have to follow any of it, or take any of it seriously, but your should fairly evaluate it. You should also never take it as a personal assault on you. Developing the strength of character and the self-esteem to take criticism of your positions, without considering it a criticism of yourself, is part of becoming an adult ( and at least 5% of us grow up, before we reach the age of 130, according to that metric :p ).
The vast majority of the time, you will most likely come to the conclusion "OK, they value, or are trying to achieve this, and I'm trying to achieve that - so their arguments don't really apply to me", or - and this happens a lot - "they say they're trying to do this but they're doing that, which doesn't lead at all to the goal they claim they're heading for - so they're either just bad at what they're doing ( or they're lying ), so maybe I won't take their arguments all that seriously". Once in a very blue moon, you will run across arguments and considerations that are new to you, and find yourself changing your position. That does not always mean changing your goals or values - just refining your approach based on ideas and arguments you hadn't considered before.
That's a lot of work - but I think it's important to examine and fairly/logically evaluate other viewpoints. To not do so - to merely remove and/or censor anyone whose position isn't yours - that's a large cause of the social mess we have today. Go out on social media to see the intractable camps on any topic, who yell at each other, congratulate people who agree with them, send each other inflammatory and hopeless inaccurate memes, and are generally very careful to shield themselves from any material which might bruise their delicate world view. That's not social discussion, that's social interaction gone gangrenous.
Know your wants and values, listen, understand, consider, fairly evaluate, and - on occasion - have the strength of character to realize that ( based on your goals, values, and beliefs ) other people have ideas worth incorporating into your own. Don't just declare yourself "right", and drown out anyone who isn't just like you.
My $0.02, anyway.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
seems I got a "warning" from the previous post I made. literally proving my point. Of having to get in line with the "inclusive crowd" or get excluded.
It has nothing to do with growing up. If you grow up you'll accept there are others with differing opinions.
In reality it has become a one way street. Those people need to grow up indeed.
So keep sending all the warnings and proving my point ;)
Once again to the OP. Try finding another D&D online community that is more in line with your needs and how you want to play the game.
actually, this being a mistake i make often i just realized that i got bored at about 9 pm. my brain, having a natural aversion to being bored, decided to be angry instead. I apologize for the harsh wording, i was just annoyed there was no advice on running this type of game.
I did NOT eat those hikers.
apparently a thing i posted earlier did not show up TL;DR Sorry, was 9pm, i was cranky (and bored, not a good combo, turns out).
I did NOT eat those hikers.
oh, it did
I did NOT eat those hikers.
There is not a correct way to play D&D, it is an amorphous game that caters to vastly different play-styles. Like the Pirate's Code, D&D rules can be a guideline or you can stick to them religiously, it is your choice. That is what is so great about D&D.
You're playing right. Objectively: D&D is a gamist system that leans towards tactical combat in dungeons, exploring cool areas, min-maxing and looting. Always has been.
Meanwhile: articles (and the vocal minority) lean towards advocating for view outside that niche (possibly due to 4e backlash)... but that's a good thing. Growth is good. But don't let their focus gaslight you into thinking your style is rare.
Y'know what movie the term "gaslight" comes from? Gaslight is a 1944 American mystery-thriller film, adapted from Patrick Hamilton's 1938 play Gas Light, about a woman whose husband slowly manipulates her into believing that she is going insane. Very appropriate.
I did NOT eat those hikers.
I dont think that for 5e, people who are focusing more on story-driven and role-play driven campaigns are the "vocal minority." Many of the official modules for 5e are made to have alot more going on with the lore and characters outside of the featured tactical dungeon crawls and major combat events in the module. Not to mention podcast campaigns like Critical Role are much more heavily role-play oriented than combat or dungeon oriented (perhaps I am wrong in this statement, I am currently only 12 episodes into Campaign 2 but so far there is been very little combat compared to the time spent outside of it).
While I agree that no one should tell you how to play or that your playstyle is wrong (D&D is in its nature a customizable game), I still disagree that the people who advocate for role-play over min-maxing and looting make up the minority of people the D&D 5e community
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
As long as the DM and the players agree on the format of the game - then that's the correct format.
Period.
It's your game. All that matters in your game is that you and your players are happy. That's it. If somebody in the DnD Forums disagrees with your style of play - they don't have to play in your game. Because it's your game. Not theirs. They can go play their game the way they want, and you can play your game the way you want.
Trust me, I've been playing D&D for a long time. I've played with very different kinds of DMs and players. And never - not once EVER - have the D&D Police knocked on my door late at night to tell me that I was under arrest for rolling magic missile damage dice separately instead of rolling once and tripling it.
Because there are no D&D Police.
Because it's a game. Your game! As long as your players understand what your format is, and they're happy with it, then you are doing it correctly.
But that's just my 2 copper pieces.
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
I think that's worth more like 2 gold, well said.
Have you played in Organized Play?
It has been my long experience that nothing about playing D&D could be considered "organized".
:-)
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
Completely off-topic: I understand you are joking, but my participation in Organized Play (and Rules forums) over the years has shown me some extremely organized (and even 'policed') activities. It's out there.