My party consists of 6 PCs. Upon reaching the 20th level, we are going to celebrate with a Great Battle faceoff against an ancient red dragon. I decided it's going to be a single boss battle: my party consists of a Necromancer who plans to utilize an Army of Infinite Zombies, a Wizard that plans to employ an Army of Infinite Simulacra, and a wildcard Sorcerer that I don't know the strategy of. We also have a druid, a paladin, and a wizard-cleric-druid multiclass support. These guys first priority is optimization for combat, and they know that even the Wizard can take on the dragon alone. I don't know what to do to make the encounter more difficult. The only variables I can imagine changing are the preparedness of the dragon, the design of the lair, and, if necessary, increase the number or type of enemies. I'm looking for suggestions. I cannot imagine a situation in which I can give them a good fight, never mind defeat them. Ideas, please?
I'm not sure how you kept them challenged up to now so, this seems like a strange post. Are they even close to level 20 at this point? I guess the Dragon should just employ his Infinite Army of Powerful Lackeys.
In general, I hope you are actually making the wizards track how many of these things they are making. Is the necromancer spending enough spells slots daily to maintain control? Is the wizard tracking when each simulacra casts a spell, since it can't refresh spells after it casts one? Also, why are you letting the wizard make that many simulacra? How are they finding that much ruby dust? And that many uninterrupted 12-hour blocks?
The dragon is very smart. By level 20, the party will be very well known, as will their tactics. It is reasonable for the dragon to take precautions. Maybe he hires a rogue to carry a wand of dispel magic. His job is to zap the simulacra, bonus action hide, repeat. I realize that wand isn't in RAW, but a dragon has the funds to pull it off. If there's really that many of the things, he maybe hires two or three of them.
Dragon flies up. The zombies are officially useless. They were mostly useless before, since they would only hit on a 19 or 20, but once the dragon is 10' off the ground, all they can do is mill around looking for brains. And hey, if the wizard wants to burn a bunch of spell slots keeping control of zombies, which will be, at best, almost useless against an ancient dragon, then good. That's fewer options for spells that might actually damage the dragon.
The paladin, unless he has a flying mount, is also out of the fight, or at least, he can't smite. If someone lets the paladin fly, that's actually great. The dragon goes more than 30 feet off the ground, and now the Pally's auras aren't helping the rest of the party. The dragon's frightful presence is a 120 foot radius. That should do for the zombies. And, likely, a party member/simulacra or two.
Put the lair on an island so they have to get this army across on boats. A couple flybys from the dragon and he can burn a boat or two. Or at the top of a narrow mountain path they have to walk up, and the dragon can arrange for a couple rockfalls to thin the herd.
Give them a couple smaller encounters against the dragon's lackeys to drain away some resources on the way in.
Add 20th level spellcaster to the Dragon and let him prep the following:
Globe of Invuln at 9th level. All Simulacrum now useless.
Antipathy 2 days before. This works within *sight*.
Mind Blank 1 day before.
Contingency. Cast 5th level False Life if bloodied.
Soul Cage some random soul before battle. 2d8 healing or save bonus for those first few rounds.
Every other spell slot for Counterspell, but only vs spells that can hurt him (9th level).
Just fly and breath weapons. If they use flying mounts, breath on the mounts first so they have to land.
Your only issue is the 9th level spells so counter those and they become irrelevant. They can’t Counterspell while the globe is active. And then destroy whatever mounts they have.
And don’t tell them what level the Globe of Invuln is until they cast an 8th level spell.
besides that, your PCs are apparently heavily home brewing their spells so do the same.
To those who question the ability of the wizard to make an army of simulacra, the wizard, (and the necromancer, and the sorcerer) know the Wish spell. Thus, they can just wish for simulacra without using components. Now here's how we get from a few to an Infinite Army: Simulacra will also know Wish. the Simulacra can just wish more simulacra of the original party, and if those simulacra know Wish, the process repeats. My party is very clever like that. The Wish spell itself is very powerful, and with simulacra knowing Wish, they get free extra Wishes.
Very good idea! A spellcaster is just what I need! Perhaps I can threaten my party that if they try Infinite anything, the enemy spellcaster can do it to. Or maybe it'll be a surprise for them.
To those who question the ability of the wizard to make an army of simulacra, the wizard, (and the necromancer, and the sorcerer) know the Wish spell. Thus, they can just wish for simulacra without using components. Now here's how we get from a few to an Infinite Army: Simulacra will also know Wish. the Simulacra can just wish more simulacra of the original party, and if those simulacra know Wish, the process repeats. My party is very clever like that. The Wish spell itself is very powerful, and with simulacra knowing Wish, they get free extra Wishes.
Since they cast wish to create it, I'd rule that the simulacra doesn't have that spell. It was already cast (in the process of creating it), and the simulacra only has what spells the wizard had prepared when the original wizard cast the spell. The simulacra comes into being after the wizard has finished casting the spell, so they no longer have it prepared. I realize that's a kind of harsh, splitting hairs ruling, but it also solves the problem. And if your players really want to push it, you can have the god of magic come down, tell them their actions have angered her, wag her finger, and make all of the simulacra disappear. And if they want to argue, she can start taking other things from them, too. Like when a teacher keeps piling on extra detention. This isn't a video game where the computer code has no choice but to obey the programming. You are the DM, you can simply choose not to allow crap like that.
If you do allow it, each successive one would have half hp, to the point where the dragon breathing will kill them all.
Very good idea! A spellcaster is just what I need! Perhaps I can threaten my party that if they try Infinite anything, the enemy spellcaster can do it to. Or maybe it'll be a surprise for them.
You can just give the Dragon 20th level spellcaster traits, as per the DMG.
Better yet, the Dragon could just cast Anti Magic Sphere and eat everything.
In general, you should have fixed the exploits the PCs are using before it got to this point (particular recommended fixes: Simulacrum can only have spell slots lower level[ than the spell itself; basic use of Wish is limited to ignoring something like 1,000 gp in components; zombies created with Finger of Death are either limited in number or not permanently controlled).
Anti magic field would take care of the army. But even without the simulaca an ancient red wouldn't be an issue for that party. Rise of Tiamat ends at lvl 16 and our party took her down, barely. Put the party at 20 and go against a red, it wouldn't even be close unless you add spellcasting and ramp it up a bit with lair actions. Even then, I don't think it'll be hard unless you can have them wade through some other dragons ahead of time to drain some resources. Throw a few young and adult reds that are its family they have to battle before they get deep enough in the lair. Anti magic field to weed out some weird crap and then an ancient that can cast 9th level spells could be a battle.
This one made me laugh, and then I remembered Grendel. So let them slay the dragon, rather easily in fact. Then use the mother to tear them apart, we can even design her together.
That being said, I am confused by the army of infinite simulacra: Are there infinite days and infinite rubies in the game as well ? If so, please give me the address, I have a number of PCs showing an interest, not mentioning a few Great Old Ones... :D
This is a great idea. Oh, you dumped your load on the ancient and now you have no resources left? Enjoy Tiamat.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
My party consists of 6 PCs. Upon reaching the 20th level, we are going to celebrate with a Great Battle faceoff against an ancient red dragon. I decided it's going to be a single boss battle: my party consists of a Necromancer who plans to utilize an Army of Infinite Zombies, a Wizard that plans to employ an Army of Infinite Simulacra, and a wildcard Sorcerer that I don't know the strategy of. We also have a druid, a paladin, and a wizard-cleric-druid multiclass support. These guys first priority is optimization for combat, and they know that even the Wizard can take on the dragon alone. I don't know what to do to make the encounter more difficult. The only variables I can imagine changing are the preparedness of the dragon, the design of the lair, and, if necessary, increase the number or type of enemies. I'm looking for suggestions. I cannot imagine a situation in which I can give them a good fight, never mind defeat them. Ideas, please?
I'm not sure how you kept them challenged up to now so, this seems like a strange post. Are they even close to level 20 at this point? I guess the Dragon should just employ his Infinite Army of Powerful Lackeys.
In general, I hope you are actually making the wizards track how many of these things they are making. Is the necromancer spending enough spells slots daily to maintain control? Is the wizard tracking when each simulacra casts a spell, since it can't refresh spells after it casts one? Also, why are you letting the wizard make that many simulacra? How are they finding that much ruby dust? And that many uninterrupted 12-hour blocks?
The dragon is very smart. By level 20, the party will be very well known, as will their tactics. It is reasonable for the dragon to take precautions. Maybe he hires a rogue to carry a wand of dispel magic. His job is to zap the simulacra, bonus action hide, repeat. I realize that wand isn't in RAW, but a dragon has the funds to pull it off. If there's really that many of the things, he maybe hires two or three of them.
Dragon flies up. The zombies are officially useless. They were mostly useless before, since they would only hit on a 19 or 20, but once the dragon is 10' off the ground, all they can do is mill around looking for brains. And hey, if the wizard wants to burn a bunch of spell slots keeping control of zombies, which will be, at best, almost useless against an ancient dragon, then good. That's fewer options for spells that might actually damage the dragon.
The paladin, unless he has a flying mount, is also out of the fight, or at least, he can't smite. If someone lets the paladin fly, that's actually great. The dragon goes more than 30 feet off the ground, and now the Pally's auras aren't helping the rest of the party. The dragon's frightful presence is a 120 foot radius. That should do for the zombies. And, likely, a party member/simulacra or two.
Put the lair on an island so they have to get this army across on boats. A couple flybys from the dragon and he can burn a boat or two. Or at the top of a narrow mountain path they have to walk up, and the dragon can arrange for a couple rockfalls to thin the herd.
Give them a couple smaller encounters against the dragon's lackeys to drain away some resources on the way in.
Lair actions.
Upgrade to Tiamat.
You might find some useful ideas here:
Matt Colville, Running the Game episode #84: Action Oriented Monsters
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Add 20th level spellcaster to the Dragon and let him prep the following:
Globe of Invuln at 9th level. All Simulacrum now useless.
Antipathy 2 days before. This works within *sight*.
Mind Blank 1 day before.
Contingency. Cast 5th level False Life if bloodied.
Soul Cage some random soul before battle. 2d8 healing or save bonus for those first few rounds.
Every other spell slot for Counterspell, but only vs spells that can hurt him (9th level).
Just fly and breath weapons. If they use flying mounts, breath on the mounts first so they have to land.
Your only issue is the 9th level spells so counter those and they become irrelevant. They can’t Counterspell while the globe is active. And then destroy whatever mounts they have.
And don’t tell them what level the Globe of Invuln is until they cast an 8th level spell.
besides that, your PCs are apparently heavily home brewing their spells so do the same.
To those who question the ability of the wizard to make an army of simulacra, the wizard, (and the necromancer, and the sorcerer) know the Wish spell. Thus, they can just wish for simulacra without using components. Now here's how we get from a few to an Infinite Army: Simulacra will also know Wish. the Simulacra can just wish more simulacra of the original party, and if those simulacra know Wish, the process repeats. My party is very clever like that. The Wish spell itself is very powerful, and with simulacra knowing Wish, they get free extra Wishes.
Very good idea! A spellcaster is just what I need! Perhaps I can threaten my party that if they try Infinite anything, the enemy spellcaster can do it to. Or maybe it'll be a surprise for them.
Since they cast wish to create it, I'd rule that the simulacra doesn't have that spell. It was already cast (in the process of creating it), and the simulacra only has what spells the wizard had prepared when the original wizard cast the spell. The simulacra comes into being after the wizard has finished casting the spell, so they no longer have it prepared. I realize that's a kind of harsh, splitting hairs ruling, but it also solves the problem. And if your players really want to push it, you can have the god of magic come down, tell them their actions have angered her, wag her finger, and make all of the simulacra disappear. And if they want to argue, she can start taking other things from them, too. Like when a teacher keeps piling on extra detention. This isn't a video game where the computer code has no choice but to obey the programming. You are the DM, you can simply choose not to allow crap like that.
If you do allow it, each successive one would have half hp, to the point where the dragon breathing will kill them all.
You can just give the Dragon 20th level spellcaster traits, as per the DMG.
Better yet, the Dragon could just cast Anti Magic Sphere and eat everything.
In general, you should have fixed the exploits the PCs are using before it got to this point (particular recommended fixes: Simulacrum can only have spell slots lower level[ than the spell itself; basic use of Wish is limited to ignoring something like 1,000 gp in components; zombies created with Finger of Death are either limited in number or not permanently controlled).
Anti magic field would take care of the army. But even without the simulaca an ancient red wouldn't be an issue for that party. Rise of Tiamat ends at lvl 16 and our party took her down, barely. Put the party at 20 and go against a red, it wouldn't even be close unless you add spellcasting and ramp it up a bit with lair actions. Even then, I don't think it'll be hard unless you can have them wade through some other dragons ahead of time to drain some resources. Throw a few young and adult reds that are its family they have to battle before they get deep enough in the lair. Anti magic field to weed out some weird crap and then an ancient that can cast 9th level spells could be a battle.
3 young dragon kids and an adult dragon that lives in the garage?
This is a great idea. Oh, you dumped your load on the ancient and now you have no resources left? Enjoy Tiamat.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
6 against 1 is always going to be highly unbalanced.
More enemies is required so that all 6 PCs can't simply single-target the big-baddie and kill it in 1-2 rounds.
Dragons have lair actions, and why wouldn't the dragon teleport away if it started getting beaten up?