I have looked up on the forums anything on mounted combat, but I'm not seeing any questions related to the concept/issue that I'm facing, so wanted to reach out to the other DMs on the forum. I have an upcoming adventure/campaign that I'm DMing soon and I have a player that is throwing a few loops into it. Technically everything they are asking for is within the rules, but I've never had to deal with this in prior versions of D&D, let alone 5E, so wanted to pick the brains of my fellow DMs on what their thoughts are.
Character concept: Halfling cavalier that rides a mastiff (no biggie so far), but he has taken the dual weapon feat and wants to charge into combat wielding twin lances. The player saw the concept on Tic Tok and freaked out when the cavalier used Action Surge for 6 attacks per round. I have checked the rules and there is nothing in the rules that says it's not possible while the character is mounted.
My issues/concerns: I know this is a min/max build and while logically I want to nix the idea, I have no real argument to deny, especially since it's technically not breaking any RAW. As I read the mounted combat rules, a mounted character can use the mounts charge to charge into battle and then use their action to attack. Lances, historically, we made for charging in, skewering an opponent or two, then switching to a more traditional melee weapon. The player wants to be able to use them to make 6 attacks on a single target, but logically (and yes, I know how logic and physics typically work in a high magic D&D realm), I can't see him making more than 2 attacks on a single target, another on the opposite side of mount with his offhand, then action surge allowing him to make another 2 attacks on a different target on the main side and another 3rd of the off side. I want to make sure that I'm understanding the rules for mounted combat before I start putting down any definite rules on it.
Q1: In Mounted Combat, are the attacks made after the mounts dash action or durning as they character is rushing through the opponents?
Q2: Do you think they should be able to make all their attacks on a single target, should I make each attack have to pick a new target (like he's lancing a new target as the mount is running through), or a combination of both options?
I'm sure that if/when comments come in, I'll have more questions. I appreciate your responses and patience on this post
The attacks can be made at any point and interspersed with various sections of movement.
RAW it’s however the player chooses.
You could Always impose disadvantage on checks and attacks when they are trying that ridiculousness. But honestly I don’t think it’s gonna break the game if you let them do it. At least they’re not a Bugbear.
A1: When taking the dash action, regardless of who or what takes it, you are not required to immediately move all of the speed you gain. Meaning that technically speaking what they would be doing is: - Taking the dash action, doubling the mounts movement speed. - Riding toward the enemy so that the enemy is in range of their weapon. - Stopping. - Attacking. - And then possibly moving onward or staying put where they are.
A2: They are allowed to make all of their attacks on a single target unless denied by Rule 0, no ifs, buts or coconuts.
This concept is an honestly fun one that is a bit min-maxy, yes but it is by no means as annoying or broken as, say, having two Bladesingers in a Level 3 Party whose AC is literally 22 which is apparently a thing that exists. The build is by no means perfect. Here are a few things to keep in mind:
1. Their Character's AC will be lower as they will not be able to use a shield. 2. Lances have an automatic disadvantage when an enemy is within 5 ft. 3. You can be knocked off your mount. 4. Bringing a mount into a dungeon or other indoor environments, even if it is a Mastiff, can be an ... iffy thing. 5. Enemies are not required to attack the rider, they can attack the mount. Mastiffs only have 5 HP and an AC of 12, that is incredibly easy to kill. 6. ALL Dual Wielding Fighters are able to make six attacks per turn using Action Surge - But they can only use that one time and then it is used up. 7. By using lances the player locks themself out of the Polearm Master feat which, as any DM will tell you, can be very annoying when paired with a Cavalier fighter.
My point is; Your player has found a build they like that is possible by RAW and that is not incredibly broken. In my opinion, you should not deny it, there is much, much worse min-maxing builds out there.
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate the break down. I'm guessing there are no rules about lances breaking in 5E. I've already explained that as much as they WANT to be constantly mounted, there will be situations where they cannot be and therefore will need to ditch the lances. I won't kill the idea, but I'm not going to 100% cater to it either. This player will need to understand that mounted combat is not designed for dungeon environments
This player will need to understand that mounted combat is not designed for dungeon environments
That, and just that. This is not a wargame, its a dungeon crawler to the core. Mounted combat is nice added bonus but no adventurer should ever rely on it.
That, and just that. This is [sic] a dungeon crawler to the core....
That’s highly debatable. D&D can be many things to many people. Whole campaigns could go to level 20 without ever setting foot in a “traditional dungeon.”
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate the break down. I'm guessing there are no rules about lances breaking in 5E. I've already explained that as much as they WANT to be constantly mounted, there will be situations where they cannot be and therefore will need to ditch the lances. I won't kill the idea, but I'm not going to 100% cater to it either. This player will need to understand that mounted combat is not designed for dungeon environments
Precisely, being mounted has many advantages. However, it does also have many drawbacks; Need to climb a cliff face? Have fun trying to get up with the mount. Although as the campaign progress, it is usually very rewarding for players when they are given access to their mount/animal companion in places where that would normally be impossible by some alternate means of transportation for the animal.
And as you guessed, as far as I know, in D&D 5e there are no rules for breaking weapons - Mainly because weapon maintenance is a tedious task that would unnecessarily slow down the game as a whole - however, ask you're players if they are alright using fumble charts. Which, in case you don't know, are charts that cause a random, sometimes more sometimes less hilarious thing to happen when a player rolls a natural 1 on an attack among those things is typically also their weapon either breaking or being damaged. In any case, if you wish to have any PCs weapon break during combat make sure that they are able to repair it afterwards, otherwise it will be unnecessarily frustrating if they are left having to expend money to buy a new one or are possibly even left without a weapon entirely in cases where they do not typically dual-wield weapons. But enough of my lectures now :)
I'm glad I could be of help. Have a great night/day and happy roleplaying!
How did this wind up at 6 attacks? Action surge doesn't give you an additional bonus action, so at level 5 you'd be getting 5 attacks and at level 11 (assuming fighter) 7.
How did this wind up at 6 attacks? Action surge doesn't give you an additional bonus action, so at level 5 you'd be getting 5 attacks and at level 11 (assuming fighter) 7.
It is six attacks. Actions surge reads: "Starting at 2nd Level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On Your Turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible Bonus Action."
Which means that if using another bonus action is available by any means, you can make a second bonus action on top of your regular bonus action. Action Surge essentially allows you to take a second turn during your turn. So it'd go: - Action: Attack (Twice at level 5) - Bonus Action: Off-hand attack. - Action Surge, which grants you another Action and Bonus Action to repeat the above. Giving you a total of six attacks in one turn.
Any fifth level fighter that is dual-wielding can make use of this nifty little "exploit"
That, and just that. This is [sic] a dungeon crawler to the core....
That’s highly debatable. D&D can be many things to many people. Whole campaigns could go to level 20 without ever setting foot in a “traditional dungeon.”
Surely it can. But it still won't change the fact D&D is about killing monsters and loot.
That, and just that. This is [sic] a dungeon crawler to the core....
That’s highly debatable. D&D can be many things to many people. Whole campaigns could go to level 20 without ever setting foot in a “traditional dungeon.”
Surely it can. But it still won't change the fact D&D is about killing monsters and loot.
Sure, D&D is absolutely about getting cool stuff, using it to kill bad guys, taking their stuff, and using it to kill more bad guys. Who says you cannot do the majority of that mounted?!? Especially in this case where it’s a Small creature mounted on a Medium creature. Even mounted, they will still probably be shorter than other party members. And I have lived with a 130lb Mastiff, someone the size of a 7 year old could totally ride one up and down steps and everything, even indoors.
How did this wind up at 6 attacks? Action surge doesn't give you an additional bonus action, so at level 5 you'd be getting 5 attacks and at level 11 (assuming fighter) 7.
It is six attacks. Actions surge reads: "Starting at 2nd Level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On Your Turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible Bonus Action."
Which means that if using another bonus action is available by any means, you can make a second bonus action on top of your regular bonus action. Action Surge essentially allows you to take a second turn during your turn. So it'd go: - Action: Attack (Twice at level 5) - Bonus Action: Off-hand attack. - Action Surge, which grants you another Action and Bonus Action to repeat the above. Giving you a total of six attacks in one turn.
Any fifth level fighter that is dual-wielding can make use of this nifty little "exploit"
You're parsing that text incorrectly. "and a possible bonus action" groups with "your regular action" -- i.e. you are normally able to take a regular action and a possible bonus action, and action surge grants you an additional action.
How did this wind up at 6 attacks? Action surge doesn't give you an additional bonus action, so at level 5 you'd be getting 5 attacks and at level 11 (assuming fighter) 7.
It is six attacks. Actions surge reads: "Starting at 2nd Level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On Your Turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible Bonus Action."
Which means that if using another bonus action is available by any means, you can make a second bonus action on top of your regular bonus action. Action Surge essentially allows you to take a second turn during your turn. So it'd go: - Action: Attack (Twice at level 5) - Bonus Action: Off-hand attack. - Action Surge, which grants you another Action and Bonus Action to repeat the above. Giving you a total of six attacks in one turn.
Any fifth level fighter that is dual-wielding can make use of this nifty little "exploit"
You're parsing that text incorrectly. "and a possible bonus action" groups with "your regular action" -- i.e. you are normally able to take a regular action and a possible bonus action, and action surge grants you an additional action.
Oh dear, yeah, fair enough. It appears I've been misinterpreting that for a few years now. Well, you always get to learn something new.
You guys are amazing! I completely appreciate all the insight. I wouldn't have caught that either DesReploid. Glad I asked this. I will take this to my player, let them know what will be involved and they can either keep or alter their decision based on the information.
You get one additional Action. Not Bonus Action. Normal turn includes an Action and a Bonus Action, but if you get an extra Action you will not get Bonus Action, unless something tells you so.
I would note that I'm firmly in favor of halfling lancers riding war dogs, but you pretty much need Mounted Combatant for the mount to survive, and dual wielding doesn't scale very well.
I hate to rain on your PC’s parade because I think the concept is completely bonkers and I love it, but... lances aren’t light weapons and so cannot be used with Two-Weapon Fighting using RAW.
While they can be used one handed while mounted they don’t have the light property which nixes two weapon fighting with lances. You could always allow this - then remember that the bonus action attach doesn’t add ability modifiers which makes it a little less broken if that’s what you’re worried about.
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
I hate to rain on your PC’s parade because I think the concept is completely bonkers and I love it, but... lances aren’t light weapons and so cannot be used with Two-Weapon Fighting using RAW.
While they can be used one handed while mounted they don’t have the light property which nixes two weapon fighting with lances. You could always allow this - then remember that the bonus action attach doesn’t add ability modifiers which makes it a little less broken if that’s what you’re worried about.
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
The character will be taking the Dual Wielder feat:
Evening everyone,
I have looked up on the forums anything on mounted combat, but I'm not seeing any questions related to the concept/issue that I'm facing, so wanted to reach out to the other DMs on the forum. I have an upcoming adventure/campaign that I'm DMing soon and I have a player that is throwing a few loops into it. Technically everything they are asking for is within the rules, but I've never had to deal with this in prior versions of D&D, let alone 5E, so wanted to pick the brains of my fellow DMs on what their thoughts are.
Character concept: Halfling cavalier that rides a mastiff (no biggie so far), but he has taken the dual weapon feat and wants to charge into combat wielding twin lances. The player saw the concept on Tic Tok and freaked out when the cavalier used Action Surge for 6 attacks per round. I have checked the rules and there is nothing in the rules that says it's not possible while the character is mounted.
My issues/concerns: I know this is a min/max build and while logically I want to nix the idea, I have no real argument to deny, especially since it's technically not breaking any RAW. As I read the mounted combat rules, a mounted character can use the mounts charge to charge into battle and then use their action to attack. Lances, historically, we made for charging in, skewering an opponent or two, then switching to a more traditional melee weapon. The player wants to be able to use them to make 6 attacks on a single target, but logically (and yes, I know how logic and physics typically work in a high magic D&D realm), I can't see him making more than 2 attacks on a single target, another on the opposite side of mount with his offhand, then action surge allowing him to make another 2 attacks on a different target on the main side and another 3rd of the off side. I want to make sure that I'm understanding the rules for mounted combat before I start putting down any definite rules on it.
Q1: In Mounted Combat, are the attacks made after the mounts dash action or durning as they character is rushing through the opponents?
Q2: Do you think they should be able to make all their attacks on a single target, should I make each attack have to pick a new target (like he's lancing a new target as the mount is running through), or a combination of both options?
I'm sure that if/when comments come in, I'll have more questions. I appreciate your responses and patience on this post
You could Always impose disadvantage on checks and attacks when they are trying that ridiculousness. But honestly I don’t think it’s gonna break the game if you let them do it. At least they’re not a Bugbear.
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A1: When taking the dash action, regardless of who or what takes it, you are not required to immediately move all of the speed you gain. Meaning that technically speaking what they would be doing is:
- Taking the dash action, doubling the mounts movement speed.
- Riding toward the enemy so that the enemy is in range of their weapon.
- Stopping.
- Attacking.
- And then possibly moving onward or staying put where they are.
A2: They are allowed to make all of their attacks on a single target unless denied by Rule 0, no ifs, buts or coconuts.
This concept is an honestly fun one that is a bit min-maxy, yes but it is by no means as annoying or broken as, say, having two Bladesingers in a Level 3 Party whose AC is literally 22 which is apparently a thing that exists. The build is by no means perfect. Here are a few things to keep in mind:
1. Their Character's AC will be lower as they will not be able to use a shield.
2. Lances have an automatic disadvantage when an enemy is within 5 ft.
3. You can be knocked off your mount.
4. Bringing a mount into a dungeon or other indoor environments, even if it is a Mastiff, can be an ... iffy thing.
5. Enemies are not required to attack the rider, they can attack the mount. Mastiffs only have 5 HP and an AC of 12, that is incredibly easy to kill.
6. ALL Dual Wielding Fighters are able to make six attacks per turn using Action Surge - But they can only use that one time and then it is used up.
7. By using lances the player locks themself out of the Polearm Master feat which, as any DM will tell you, can be very annoying when paired with a Cavalier fighter.
My point is; Your player has found a build they like that is possible by RAW and that is not incredibly broken. In my opinion, you should not deny it, there is much, much worse min-maxing builds out there.
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate the break down. I'm guessing there are no rules about lances breaking in 5E. I've already explained that as much as they WANT to be constantly mounted, there will be situations where they cannot be and therefore will need to ditch the lances. I won't kill the idea, but I'm not going to 100% cater to it either. This player will need to understand that mounted combat is not designed for dungeon environments
That, and just that. This is not a wargame, its a dungeon crawler to the core. Mounted combat is nice added bonus but no adventurer should ever rely on it.
That’s highly debatable. D&D can be many things to many people. Whole campaigns could go to level 20 without ever setting foot in a “traditional dungeon.”
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Precisely, being mounted has many advantages. However, it does also have many drawbacks; Need to climb a cliff face? Have fun trying to get up with the mount. Although as the campaign progress, it is usually very rewarding for players when they are given access to their mount/animal companion in places where that would normally be impossible by some alternate means of transportation for the animal.
And as you guessed, as far as I know, in D&D 5e there are no rules for breaking weapons - Mainly because weapon maintenance is a tedious task that would unnecessarily slow down the game as a whole - however, ask you're players if they are alright using fumble charts. Which, in case you don't know, are charts that cause a random, sometimes more sometimes less hilarious thing to happen when a player rolls a natural 1 on an attack among those things is typically also their weapon either breaking or being damaged. In any case, if you wish to have any PCs weapon break during combat make sure that they are able to repair it afterwards, otherwise it will be unnecessarily frustrating if they are left having to expend money to buy a new one or are possibly even left without a weapon entirely in cases where they do not typically dual-wield weapons. But enough of my lectures now :)
I'm glad I could be of help. Have a great night/day and happy roleplaying!
How did this wind up at 6 attacks? Action surge doesn't give you an additional bonus action, so at level 5 you'd be getting 5 attacks and at level 11 (assuming fighter) 7.
It is six attacks. Actions surge reads:
"Starting at 2nd Level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On Your Turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible Bonus Action."
Which means that if using another bonus action is available by any means, you can make a second bonus action on top of your regular bonus action. Action Surge essentially allows you to take a second turn during your turn. So it'd go:
- Action: Attack (Twice at level 5)
- Bonus Action: Off-hand attack.
- Action Surge, which grants you another Action and Bonus Action to repeat the above. Giving you a total of six attacks in one turn.
Any fifth level fighter that is dual-wielding can make use of this nifty little "exploit"
Surely it can. But it still won't change the fact D&D is about killing monsters and loot.
Edit: Or the core designed about that idea.
Sure, D&D is absolutely about getting cool stuff, using it to kill bad guys, taking their stuff, and using it to kill more bad guys. Who says you cannot do the majority of that mounted?!? Especially in this case where it’s a Small creature mounted on a Medium creature. Even mounted, they will still probably be shorter than other party members. And I have lived with a 130lb Mastiff, someone the size of a 7 year old could totally ride one up and down steps and everything, even indoors.
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You're parsing that text incorrectly. "and a possible bonus action" groups with "your regular action" -- i.e. you are normally able to take a regular action and a possible bonus action, and action surge grants you an additional action.
Yeah, Pantagruel666 is absolutely correct.
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Oh dear, yeah, fair enough. It appears I've been misinterpreting that for a few years now. Well, you always get to learn something new.
You guys are amazing! I completely appreciate all the insight. I wouldn't have caught that either DesReploid. Glad I asked this. I will take this to my player, let them know what will be involved and they can either keep or alter their decision based on the information.
You get one additional Action. Not Bonus Action. Normal turn includes an Action and a Bonus Action, but if you get an extra Action you will not get Bonus Action, unless something tells you so.
I would note that I'm firmly in favor of halfling lancers riding war dogs, but you pretty much need Mounted Combatant for the mount to survive, and dual wielding doesn't scale very well.
I hate to rain on your PC’s parade because I think the concept is completely bonkers and I love it, but... lances aren’t light weapons and so cannot be used with Two-Weapon Fighting using RAW.
While they can be used one handed while mounted they don’t have the light property which nixes two weapon fighting with lances. You could always allow this - then remember that the bonus action attach doesn’t add ability modifiers which makes it a little less broken if that’s what you’re worried about.
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
The character will be taking the Dual Wielder feat:
And presumably also the Two-Weapon Fighting Style as well:
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Ahhh must’ve missed that point in the thread, that would clear that up. Well taking two feats does slow down that build down more.